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redsoxfan

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I know most DO schools are geared towards primary care, but my current job has piqued my interest in surgery. any thoughts on schools that produce a fair share of surgeons? thanks!!
 

HarveyCushing

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I know most DO schools are geared towards primary care, but my current job has piqued my interest in surgery. any thoughts on schools that produce a fair share of surgeons? thanks!!


CCOM, PCOM, KCUMB. At my KCUMB interview they mentioned that around 60% of their applicants specialize, the most out of any DO school.
 

bigdog8829

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take a look at the residency match lists. they are floating around all over sdn. try a search for them.
off the top of my head, that ALOT of people will disagree with but what I deem to be good, reputable schools are dmu, ccom, kcumb, pcom, nycom.
I would suggest looking into the more established schools that cosistently produce surgeons, or just and specailty in general.
 
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Honestly, whether or not you get the specialty you want is largely dependant on your performance. DOs from practically every school have matched in to surgery. However, word on the street is that PCOM and NYCOM produce a lot of grads who end up specializing, including in surgery.

For more accurate info, dig up the thread on match lists. Check out the match for each school, and you can find out the answer for yourself.
 

redsoxfan

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thanks for everyone's feedback. for some reason, i never sent in my secondary to KCUMB. i am still waiting to hear from PCOM and NYCOM...
 

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NYCOM and PCOM as said above. ;) and also DMU.
 

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PCOM

We have the top Osteopathic General Surgery residency in the country.

Also have Orthopedic Surgery, Otolaryngology (ENT), Neurosurgery and Plastic/Reconstructive Surgery programs. Also have affiliations with fellowships in Vascular, Trauma, Critical Care Surgery and Colorectal Surgery.

85% of PCOM General Surgery graduates go on to post graduate fellowships.

One of only 3 medical schools (as of the beginning of the 2006-2007 academic year) to have a laparascopic surgical simulator. The first year medical students begin using this and have an opportunity to do so throughout their medical school curriculum and into residency if they stay at PCOM.

PCOMs General Surgery program has the following affiliates:

Frankford Hospitals (part of the Jefferson Health System)
Crozer Hospitals [Burn] - 350+ burn cases/year; one of the oldest burn centers on the east coast
Cooper University Hospital [Trauma] - More than 2,000 trauma cases/year (most in the entire region, including all the big Philadelphia hospitals)
Geisinger Hospital
Deborah Heart & Lung
Memorial Sloan Kettering [Oncological Surgery] #1 Cancer hospital in the world

I think that about covers it. :D
 

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Seems like everyone's covered it already. The impression I get is PCOM is the best place to be, then bigdog covered the others. But again, you can go into surgery from anywhere, so it isn't just a school thing. BTW, we were told on interview day that DMU has a laparoscopic simulator thingy in the surgical skills lab. Though it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong.
 

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You're right. I saw the laproscopic stuff when I was there.
 

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Unless the school sends out like 90% primary care grads (I think a few schools), you will be able to speciliaze based on your performance. Although you can still specialize at the 90% pc school, it is probably harder because such a high percentage states that they obviously focus on primary care, whether it be through rotations or other ways. I dont think that students are not necessarily outcompeted at those schools that they eventually end up at primary care but are leaned towards that direction that they most probably choose it as their own preference.
 

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Honestly, whether or not you get the specialty you want is largely dependant on your performance. DOs from practically every school have matched in to surgery. However, word on the street is that PCOM and NYCOM produce a lot of grads who end up specializing, including in surgery.

For more accurate info, dig up the thread on match lists. Check out the match for each school, and you can find out the answer for yourself.

i agree with this post. it may be that certain schools produce more surgeons than others, but if you work your butt off and do good on the boards, i think you can get where you want to go. i would recommend taking the USMLE and COMLEX to be more competitive, but that is just my opinion of course.

good luck...
 

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I have noticed a trend in many of these types of posting responses: anything is possible as long as you work hard. I agree. I think most people would agree as well. However, the reason people post these messages and inquire about the issues they have is to see what the general concensus is. Of course even if you went to NSU where vast majority of grads go into primary care, as long as you work hard and score highly on COMLEX/USMLE you'll get into specialty/surgery residencies. No doubt. So many responses also state things like even if you goto SGU in the Caribbean, as long as you work your butt off and do well in the tests, you'll get into competitive residencies. True. But, the likelihood of that is small. Likewise, graduating from a school heavily focusing on primary care and going into surgery residency is likely small as well although not impossible. So, I do appreciate informative responses of many of the posters of this posting of listing several schools with reputations of turning out majority non primary care residents. However, when I do read the "as long as you work hard you can get into any residencies" type of responses, all I can think is "of course and he already knows that I'm sure....and that wasn't his question".
 

MaximusD

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I have noticed a trend in many of these types of posting responses: anything is possible as long as you work hard. I agree. I think most people would agree as well. However, the reason people post these messages and inquire about the issues they have is to see what the general concensus is. Of course even if you went to NSU where vast majority of grads go into primary care, as long as you work hard and score highly on COMLEX/USMLE you'll get into specialty/surgery residencies. No doubt. So many responses also state things like even if you goto SGU in the Caribbean, as long as you work your butt off and do well in the tests, you'll get into competitive residencies. True. But, the likelihood of that is small. Likewise, graduating from a school heavily focusing on primary care and going into surgery residency is likely small as well although not impossible. So, I do appreciate informative responses of many of the posters of this posting of listing several schools with reputations of turning out majority non primary care residents. However, when I do read the "as long as you work hard you can get into any residencies" type of responses, all I can think is "of course and he already knows that I'm sure....and that wasn't his question".

You oversimplify, however - probably to illustrate your point. The fact is that those "work hard and you shall succeed" posts are true to a certain extent. Because there is a large emphasis in many DO schools on primary care AND because these schools tend to accept students based on their interest in serving the underserved as PCPs, these large reasons that certain schools put out primary care docs. The situation may not always be that students from primary-care oriented DO schools were UNABLE to match into competitive residencies. Instead, it is important to remember that students at many of these schools WANTED to go into primary care residencies. Please keep that in mind.

Thus, the whole try hard and you will do well is not entirely played out. I do agree, however, that schools in larger metropolitan areas with a history of students specializing are likely to be more visible and recognizable to residency directors looking at your application... Plus, these schools will have made it more likely that you would have done rotations in front of said director or colleagues of said director. :)
 
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Taty

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I know most DO schools are geared towards primary care, but my current job has piqued my interest in surgery. any thoughts on schools that produce a fair share of surgeons? thanks!!

Yea...NYCOM and PCOM. At NYCOM I was asked during my interview if I want to specialize or go to primary care. I told the guy that I am interested in trauma or transplant surgery, he told me that NYCOM is a right place for me because more than 45% grads are specializing including surgery...
 

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OP,

If you have a geniune interest in Surgery, I would recommend going allopathic. Have you considered this?
 

Lamborghini1315

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do well on your boards, i guarantee you can be a surgeon right out of any school.
 

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Have you looked at where you will rotate through, and for how long, during your last two years? If you rotate through surgery for like 4 weeks, then you know that school isn't going to produce a lot of surgery residents. NYCOM gives 12 weeks of surgery, so you know there will end up being a lot of surgeons. PCOM I'm sure is similar.
 
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JonnyG

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Have you looked at where you will rotate through, and for how long, during your last two years? If you rotate through surgery for like 4 weeks, then you know that school isn't going to produce a lot of surgery residents. NYCOM gives 12 weeks of surgery, so you know there will end up being a lot of surgeons. PCOM I'm sure is similar.

12 weeks of surgery too. General surgery, Surgery, and ambulatory surgery. Each a month long
 

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PCOM also offers 6 months of unrestricted elective time.
 

VALSALVA

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Here we go again...

1. No match or licensure issues (e.g. "should I go osteopathic or allopathic? "should I take the USMLE?" "should I do an internship?")

2. One less year of post-graduate education - in some cases.

2. By going allopathic, one would have much better chance of matching at a tertiary center with more than enough cases and variety - I would say this is nearly guaranteed. You'll have no guarantee of this in the osteopathic world.

3. Bigger salaries at allopathic institutions (if you're going to be working for 80 hours a week, might at well make $45,000 rather than $40,000)

4. In general, better clinical training sites for students - which opens doors and makes it easier to connect with quality programs.

*I'm currently finishing up my last few rotations at an established and well known osteopathic training site. The surgery residents here don't get NEARLY enough volume or variety here. Oh sure...they probably get there minimum requirements fulfilled, but I'd be super scared coming out of that program - and this is a well known and respected program! This is just an anecdote, but maybe it's related to the fact that a minority of us 2007 graduated matched in the DO match???
 

Dr JPH

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Here we go again...

1. No match or licensure issues (e.g. "should I go osteopathic or allopathic? "should I take the USMLE?" "should I do an internship?")

2. One less year of post-graduate education - in some cases.

2. By going allopathic, one would have much better chance of matching at a tertiary center with more than enough cases and variety - I would say this is nearly guaranteed. You'll have no guarantee of this in the osteopathic world.

3. Bigger salaries at allopathic institutions (if you're going to be working for 80 hours a week, might at well make $45,000 rather than $40,000)

4. In general, better clinical training sites for students - which opens doors and makes it easier to connect with quality programs.

*I'm currently finishing up my last few rotations at an established and well known osteopathic training site. The surgery residents here don't get NEARLY enough volume or variety here. Oh sure...they probably get there minimum requirements fulfilled, but I'd be super scared coming out of that program - and this is a well known and respected program! This is just an anecdote, but maybe it's related to the fact that a minority of us 2007 graduated matched in the DO match???

So youre saying the person should go allopathic because you feel that a large number of the DO surgery programs are sub-par? You dont feel a DO can match at an allopathic institution for surgery?

I would be interested in knowing which program you speak of as well.

Sorry that your experience has been a negative one.
 

HarveyCushing

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So youre saying the person should go allopathic because you feel that a large number of the DO surgery programs are sub-par? You dont feel a DO can match at an allopathic institution for surgery?

I would be interested in knowing which program you speak of as well.

Sorry that your experience has been a negative one.

What about going to a osteopathic program and then doing a fellowship afterwards at an allopathic institution?
 

redsoxfan

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the only school i have been accepted at so far is Unecom. i am still waiting to hear from UMDNJ-SOM, NYCOM, and PCOM. I have not been accepted to any allopathic schools. i am grateful to have been accepted to Unecom but know that they really emphasize primary care, particularly in rural areas. i have my fingers crossed that one of the above schools will come thru for me, but if not, i will just have to work really hard as people have said.
 

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Here we go again...

1. No match or licensure issues (e.g. "should I go osteopathic or allopathic? "should I take the USMLE?" "should I do an internship?")

2. One less year of post-graduate education - in some cases.

2. By going allopathic, one would have much better chance of matching at a tertiary center with more than enough cases and variety - I would say this is nearly guaranteed. You'll have no guarantee of this in the osteopathic world.

3. Bigger salaries at allopathic institutions (if you're going to be working for 80 hours a week, might at well make $45,000 rather than $40,000)

4. In general, better clinical training sites for students - which opens doors and makes it easier to connect with quality programs.

*I'm currently finishing up my last few rotations at an established and well known osteopathic training site. The surgery residents here don't get NEARLY enough volume or variety here. Oh sure...they probably get there minimum requirements fulfilled, but I'd be super scared coming out of that program - and this is a well known and respected program! This is just an anecdote, but maybe it's related to the fact that a minority of us 2007 graduated matched in the DO match???



While your argument is not completely unacceptable, it has a few flaws. I'm at a DO program and will be a general surgeon in 5 years. And, as much as you'd like to think that you'll get a better operative experience at a tertiary care center, for the most part it's not true. There were pgy 3's at the MD places I rotated at who were finally getting their hands on some instruments during cases, just like at the DO places. And there are chiefs at MD programs who are still 1st assisting.

No matter which type of program you train at, you have to work hard and stay on top of your game and stay motivated to learn and teach those below you.

And to answer the OP: KCUMB, baby :thumbup: ;) (for no particular reason....except that my clinical rotation site became my residency site).
 

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Umm........If i'm not mistaken, isn't choosing a specialty a personal decision? Why is it that many premeds insist on claiming that one school is better than the other, or that this school has more students entering a sub-specialty (i.e. highly competitive specialty) so it is a higher ranked school. For the last time people, IT DEPENDS SOLELY ON THE PERSON, NOT THE SCHOOL. If you want to enter a competitive specialty, go to the school that you are most comfortable at, work your butt off, and for the love of all that is holy, stop your bickering. Also, has anybody else noticed that the schools people list are the ones they are going to attend, or are currently attending (medical students). Well, since I plan on attending either OSUCOM, AZCOM, or my state MD school. Those are the top tier schools! ha ha! see how lame it is!

If it ends up that I am competitng for a surgical residency spot with some of the students who have posted on this thread it'll be all too easy. If you are half as dumb as your questions/misconceptions the rest of us should have no problems getting the more competitive spots. I'll say it again. YOU WANT THE COMPETITIVE SPOTS? WORK HARD FOR THEM. DRINK LESS! STUDY MORE! And we'll see you on the battleground!:laugh: :laugh:
 

HarveyCushing

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Umm........If i'm not mistaken, isn't choosing a specialty a personal decision? Why is it that many premeds insist on claiming that one school is better than the other, or that this school has more students entering a sub-specialty (i.e. highly competitive specialty) so it is a higher ranked school. For the last time people, IT DEPENDS SOLELY ON THE PERSON, NOT THE SCHOOL. If you want to enter a competitive specialty, go to the school that you are most comfortable at, work your butt off, and for the love of all that is holy, stop your bickering. Also, has anybody else noticed that the schools people list are the ones they are going to attend, or are currently attending (medical students). Well, since I plan on attending either OSUCOM, AZCOM, or my state MD school. Those are the top tier schools! ha ha! see how lame it is!

If it ends up that I am competitng for a surgical residency spot with some of the students who have posted on this thread it'll be all too easy. If you are half as dumb as your questions/misconceptions the rest of us should have no problems getting the more competitive spots. I'll say it again. YOU WANT THE COMPETITIVE SPOTS? WORK HARD FOR THEM. DRINK LESS! STUDY MORE! And we'll see you on the battleground!:laugh: :laugh:

While what you say is true, you must not forget that by looking at match lists there are some schools that put more of their graduates into surgery residencies than others. While this just might be student preference/choice, there are some programs that tailor to this group more than others. Also some schools tend to attract students who want to go into surgery, while others tend to attract others who want to do FP/rural. So it is a little of both.
 

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If you haven't done so already go to Google and type in "Osteopathic residencies"

You will get a link at the top. Click on it.

This is the AOA oppourtunities website. Here you will find things by state, residency, etc.

Look at Pennsylvannia, Ohio, New York and Michigan. In these states, you will see many osteopathic residencies.

If you want to look further into a surgery program - click on one that says surgery and it will give you the whole rund down like "Positions Approved/Position Funded" or something like salary, or % going onto subspeciaties etc.

You will see that PCOM has a very large OPTI program associated with it - many of which are in specialties. For pre-meds who want to be more "special" than the rest of us "inferior" mud trench primary care individuals, I would pay careful attention to the OPTI listings of the school.

There is a reason why PCOM has many of its graduates going into specialties -that school has a substantial OPTI listing in specialties and sub specialties.

I'm from South Jersey. Whenever I met a DO, he or she was usually a sub-specialist because of PCOM. It was a rare thing to see a DO as a PCP. I never shadowed a DO PCP because most were all specialist in South Jersey.

Same can be said with Ohio Univeristy and Michigan State - both of which have a monsterous listing in specialties as well. Florida also has a nice following from NSU too.
 

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So youre saying the person should go allopathic because you feel that a large number of the DO surgery programs are sub-par? You dont feel a DO can match at an allopathic institution for surgery?

I would be interested in knowing which program you speak of as well.

Sorry that your experience has been a negative one.

Hey JP,

You can PM me if you want to know what program I speak of.

Yes, I do believe a large percentage of osteopathic surgery residencies are sub-par. It's not necessarily the majority, but it's a far too significant amount. Yes! I do feel a DO can match into an allopathic surgery program...Absolutely! However, that bringing into play licensing, board, and bias issues - hassles I'd just as soon avoid in hind-sight.
 

VALSALVA

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While your argument is not completely unacceptable, it has a few flaws. I'm at a DO program and will be a general surgeon in 5 years. And, as much as you'd like to think that you'll get a better operative experience at a tertiary care center, for the most part it's not true. There were pgy 3's at the MD places I rotated at who were finally getting their hands on some instruments during cases, just like at the DO places. And there are chiefs at MD programs who are still 1st assisting.

No matter which type of program you train at, you have to work hard and stay on top of your game and stay motivated to learn and teach those below you.

And to answer the OP: KCUMB, baby :thumbup: ;) (for no particular reason....except that my clinical rotation site became my residency site).

Points well taken...however, you really didn't disprove any of my points - save for you graduating in 5 years. Other than that, I think my points are valid and significant.

*again, I'll share an anecdotal story here, but it cuts to one of my points. I did some electives at an allopathic university hospital last year. While there, I had the privelege to work under the director of post-graduate education at that facility. When asked, his opinion of DO's was positive. However, I made it clear that many of the DO interns over the years had one glaring weakness coming in...which was that they did their clinical rotations in locations were weak - with little variety and lower volumes. Consequently, they were poor at managing a large amount of patients with a more diverse line-up of chief complaints.
 

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Hey JP,

You can PM me if you want to know what program I speak of.

Yes, I do believe a large percentage of osteopathic surgery residencies are sub-par. It's not necessarily the majority, but it's a far too significant amount. Yes! I do feel a DO can match into an allopathic surgery program...Absolutely! However, that bringing into play licensing, board, and bias issues - hassles I'd just as soon avoid in hind-sight.


How will there be licensing or board issues???
 

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Points well taken...however, you really didn't disprove any of my points - save for you graduating in 5 years. Other than that, I think my points are valid and significant.

*again, I'll share an anecdotal story here, but it cuts to one of my points. I did some electives at an allopathic university hospital last year. While there, I had the privelege to work under the director of post-graduate education at that facility. When asked, his opinion of DO's was positive. However, I made it clear that many of the DO interns over the years had one glaring weakness coming in...which was that they did their clinical rotations in locations were weak - with little variety and lower volumes. Consequently, they were poor at managing a large amount of patients with a more diverse line-up of chief complaints.

And so how were they at managing patients in their senior years at this place? Still deficient? At my hospital, we have a ton of pathology. And it is expected that on day 1 of pgy 2 you hit the ground running with managing a list of at least 20 patients and all of the consults that come in through the ER. And of course the operative experience that goes with the consults. We have more didactics than comparable MD hospitals and we rotate out at the big house for some specialties (colorectal, hepatobiliary and peds).

I operated with my senior the other night, 1st assisted him. He has amazing skills and I learn from him every day.

All of our opinions don't matter. What matters is the opinions of those who have graduated from DO programs and are practicing. Ask them.
 

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Hey JP,

You can PM me if you want to know what program I speak of.

Yes, I do believe a large percentage of osteopathic surgery residencies are sub-par. It's not necessarily the majority, but it's a far too significant amount. Yes! I do feel a DO can match into an allopathic surgery program...Absolutely! However, that bringing into play licensing, board, and bias issues - hassles I'd just as soon avoid in hind-sight.

I definately see your point.

An average student would have an easier time matching into a general surgery spot from an MD school than from a DO school. No doubt there.
 
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