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exmissionary
Is there anywhere I can find a list of the best medical schools in the world and see how that rank compaired to American Medical schools?
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Not really sure.
I would say the best med school is the one you get into.
I would say the best med school is the one you get into.
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it is probably very difficult to compare across systems, so i imagine such a list does not exist.
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This is a question that does not contain enough criteria to be useful. If you want to practice in the states you have limited your answer set to certain schools regardless of rank--if that's even useful in a world-wide sense.
I would imagine if you want to practice medicine in Burma then maybe their system would be the best to train in, if 90% or whatever of the population doesn't have access to state-of-the-art medical diagnostics and pharmaceuticals.
There are non-US schools that are more apt at getting their grads stateside to get a residency spot, but its not clear what your asking, or even that is answerable in such concrete terms as a ranking system.
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If you want to measure "best" school by its delivery of medical care to the most people who don't normally get any, it would be hard to beat ELAM in Cuba. They have something like 10,000 students. As I understand it, all the students are from outside Cuba. All students are funded by either their home country, to which they're required to return, or by Cuba or Venezuela. In a number of countries in Central America and Africa, students are trained locally by local physicians and sent to Cuba for basic sciences.
Do they turn out neurosurgeons? No. Would all graduates pass the US boards? No. (US grads of this school, and there are quite a few, have to pass US boards.) Do their grads make boatloads of money? No.
Y'know, so "best" school for whom?
Do they turn out neurosurgeons? No. Would all graduates pass the US boards? No. (US grads of this school, and there are quite a few, have to pass US boards.) Do their grads make boatloads of money? No.
Y'know, so "best" school for whom?
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Oh we'll beat ELAM in Cuba <g> Just give it about 5 or 10 years when Fidel decides to Move on to a better place and we'll be beating Elam in Cuba right into beautiful beachfront haciendas and palm tree casinos with average medical prescription bills and loads of viagra going through the ROOF...
Go Teddy... Go Big Stick.> Go Teddy.
Lol sorry just had to toss the when is Fidel finally going to GIVE IT UP thread in there ...
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On what measure? How the graduates do on the USMLE? Or how about NIH dollars? Where the graduates Match?
Oh, wait, these are all things relating to US medical education!
You'd have to look real hard for any data (e.g. UK medics doing residencies in the US) and I guarauntee it would be pretty low-powered or stretched out over too long a time period to be relevant.
Oh, wait, these are all things relating to US medical education!
You'd have to look real hard for any data (e.g. UK medics doing residencies in the US) and I guarauntee it would be pretty low-powered or stretched out over too long a time period to be relevant.
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njbmd
Moving to Topics in Healthcare for a more worldly view.
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I think that almost every developed nation has atleast one medical school that can be called (although very subjectively) a top tier medical school. However, this would be almost impossible to rank fairly and objectively since most indicators you would be interested in are US biased (% graduates passing USMLE for example).
Even medical schools in some underdeveloped nations can be argued to be very good in some sense. Many such institutions teach reputedly better physical exam skills (mostly because doctors cant always rely on the availability of tests).
Even medical schools in some underdeveloped nations can be argued to be very good in some sense. Many such institutions teach reputedly better physical exam skills (mostly because doctors cant always rely on the availability of tests).
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Is anyone here attending the ELAM or kno someone who is currently studying in Cuba?
I wanted more info besides that given on their official website, so if anyone can give me more info, i'd appreciate it.
I wanted more info besides that given on their official website, so if anyone can give me more info, i'd appreciate it.
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exmissionary
HAVANA (AP) Eight Americans who graduated from a Cuban medical school say they will put the education paid for by Fidel Castro's communist government to use in hospitals back home.
Four New Yorkers, three Californians and a Minnesotan, all from minority backgrounds, have studied in Havana since April 2001, forming the first class of American graduates from the Latin American School of Medicine.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-07-25-cuba_N.htm
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Times Higher Supplement in the UK ranked of the top 100 world biomedicine universities.
Here is the top 20:
1) Harvard (US)
2) Cambridge (UK)
3) Oxford (UK)
4) Imperial College London (UK)
5) Stanford (US)
6) Johns Hopkins (US)
7) Karolinska Institute (Sweden)
8) Yale (US)
9) UC Berkeley (US)
10) UCSD (US)
11) Beijing (China)
12) MIT (US)
13) Tokyo (Japan)
14) Melbourne (Australia)
15) Sydney (Australia)
16) Heidelberg (Germany)
17) Duke (US)
18) UCSF (US)
19) University College London (UK)
20) Toronto (Canada)
Who is shaping the way we practice medicine?
Top 20 countries in clinical medicine based on citations per paper
Country/Territory Papers Citations Impact
1 Finland 22,758 386,397 16.98
2 Netherlands 64,335 1,042,551 16.21
3 Denmark 23,322 376,386 16.14
4 US 709,347 11,326,659 15.97
5 Scotland 23,774 374,017 15.73
6 Canada 84,865 1,333,963 15.72
7 Switzerland 39,837 614,622 15.43
8 Belgium 30,713 470,997 15.34
9 Sweden 46,871 713,694 15.23
10 Norway 15,413 230,389 14.95
11 England 167,891 2,357,951 14.04
12 Italy 96,432 1,235,277 12.81
13 Australia 57,342 733,180 12.79
14 New Zealand 9,317 116,184 12.47
15 Austria 25,840 305,999 11.84
16 France 111,517 1,301,643 11.67
17 Germany 173,039 1,939,097 11.21
18 Israel 26,400 281,564 10.67
19 Spain 51,135 532,146 10.41
20 Japan 166,775 1,591,854 9.54
Here is the top 20:
1) Harvard (US)
2) Cambridge (UK)
3) Oxford (UK)
4) Imperial College London (UK)
5) Stanford (US)
6) Johns Hopkins (US)
7) Karolinska Institute (Sweden)
8) Yale (US)
9) UC Berkeley (US)
10) UCSD (US)
11) Beijing (China)
12) MIT (US)
13) Tokyo (Japan)
14) Melbourne (Australia)
15) Sydney (Australia)
16) Heidelberg (Germany)
17) Duke (US)
18) UCSF (US)
19) University College London (UK)
20) Toronto (Canada)
Who is shaping the way we practice medicine?
Top 20 countries in clinical medicine based on citations per paper
Country/Territory Papers Citations Impact
1 Finland 22,758 386,397 16.98
2 Netherlands 64,335 1,042,551 16.21
3 Denmark 23,322 376,386 16.14
4 US 709,347 11,326,659 15.97
5 Scotland 23,774 374,017 15.73
6 Canada 84,865 1,333,963 15.72
7 Switzerland 39,837 614,622 15.43
8 Belgium 30,713 470,997 15.34
9 Sweden 46,871 713,694 15.23
10 Norway 15,413 230,389 14.95
11 England 167,891 2,357,951 14.04
12 Italy 96,432 1,235,277 12.81
13 Australia 57,342 733,180 12.79
14 New Zealand 9,317 116,184 12.47
15 Austria 25,840 305,999 11.84
16 France 111,517 1,301,643 11.67
17 Germany 173,039 1,939,097 11.21
18 Israel 26,400 281,564 10.67
19 Spain 51,135 532,146 10.41
20 Japan 166,775 1,591,854 9.54
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//
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No offense, but these stats are pretty close to worthless. First of all, those are "biomedicine universities" which aren't even medical schools. "UC Berkeley" isn't a medical school. And I can assure you that UCSD is not the 5th best medical school in the US.
Also, I found it curious that the UK had 3 of the top 5 in the world. Considering it was a UK paper that compiled the rankings.
Also, as for the rest of the thread. I must say I was suprised to see the only school mentioned as from Cuba. that may have been my last guess in the entire world.
Also, I found it curious that the UK had 3 of the top 5 in the world. Considering it was a UK paper that compiled the rankings.
Also, as for the rest of the thread. I must say I was suprised to see the only school mentioned as from Cuba. that may have been my last guess in the entire world.
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I never said they were medical schools. I said they were centers of "biomedicine". I couldn't find rankings of all the worlds medical schools. This is the closest thing (world rank) of universities I could find that looked at the same "area" .. ie. medical sciences.
True, however.. everyone is biased. I'm sure that if a US firm were to publish results ...their top 5 would equally be all US schools.
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No argument with you really. ...just some lists I found that I thought would be interesting to post in this thread.
hmm.. but if you consider a country with Findland's total population (approx. 5 mil people), total number of major academic research centers (dunno.. maybe 5-10) compared with the US (approx. 304 mil total people and hundreds of research centers), you have to admit.. (per capita) they are doing pretty damn well.
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167649
"The #1 leader in US medical education"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exmissionary
Is there anywhere I can find a list of the best medical schools in the world and see how that rank compaired to American Medical schools?
I'm not sure if there is a list like you're looking for. However, my brother is in the stage of starting the application process to go to medical school. He has looked into a few international med schools as alternative if he can't get accepted to a school in the States. I know for a fact that some med schools in the Caribbean do meet the standards that the AMA and many states set for licensure as a physician. Good schools that I know of in the Caribbean that are considered equivalent to the schools in the US include Ross University in Dominica, St George's University in Grenada, American University of the Caribbean in St. Martin, Saba University School of Medicine in Saba, St. James School of Medicine in Bonaire, and Medical University of the Americas in Nevis. These schools are still highly selective, but since they don't have as many students apply each year like the average American med school, you have a slightly better chance of being accepted.
Originally Posted by exmissionary
Is there anywhere I can find a list of the best medical schools in the world and see how that rank compaired to American Medical schools?
I'm not sure if there is a list like you're looking for. However, my brother is in the stage of starting the application process to go to medical school. He has looked into a few international med schools as alternative if he can't get accepted to a school in the States. I know for a fact that some med schools in the Caribbean do meet the standards that the AMA and many states set for licensure as a physician. Good schools that I know of in the Caribbean that are considered equivalent to the schools in the US include Ross University in Dominica, St George's University in Grenada, American University of the Caribbean in St. Martin, Saba University School of Medicine in Saba, St. James School of Medicine in Bonaire, and Medical University of the Americas in Nevis. These schools are still highly selective, but since they don't have as many students apply each year like the average American med school, you have a slightly better chance of being accepted.
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All "rankings" have to be based on something, which is why they are essentially useless in the sense of being generalizable. For example, when US News ranks medical schools, they put a lot of weight on research funding from the NIH, which may mean a lot in terms of repuation, but is essentially meaningless to students who are not looking for in depth lab research. Similarly, most measures to compare health systems put a lot of weight on "equity" which automatically ranks "unequal" systems more lowly.
When selecting a medical school (and don't kid yourself that the quality of the system in which that school exists isn't highly important), you have to look for attributes that meet your particular needs. The Mayo clinic may have an awesome medical program, but I'd much rather stay in Miami for trauma. Harvard may produce some incredible physicians, but if your goal is rural medicine 150 miles outside of Bismark, ND, there are other institutions that you may be better suited to. Also, high level physicians on staff is probably meaningless in many instances, as no medical students ever get to interact with these people at some places.
I think that the one thing most of us will agree on, is that it probably makes sense, if you are planning on practicing in a developed nation, to train in the nation in which you plan to practice.
When selecting a medical school (and don't kid yourself that the quality of the system in which that school exists isn't highly important), you have to look for attributes that meet your particular needs. The Mayo clinic may have an awesome medical program, but I'd much rather stay in Miami for trauma. Harvard may produce some incredible physicians, but if your goal is rural medicine 150 miles outside of Bismark, ND, there are other institutions that you may be better suited to. Also, high level physicians on staff is probably meaningless in many instances, as no medical students ever get to interact with these people at some places.
I think that the one thing most of us will agree on, is that it probably makes sense, if you are planning on practicing in a developed nation, to train in the nation in which you plan to practice.
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Yea I think this too.......LOL
I think it is opinionated what and who is best
Johns Hopkins
Yale
Harvard
Mayo
are ones coming to mind
Emory in Georgia
UCSF
Many more
For Caribbean students any US school But since we must attend a school in the Caribbean
SGU
ROSS
AUC
SABA
Really I find it little use to rank medical schools since going to any US school works for a bright future for the most part.
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Actually, the best medical school is the cheapest one. Hell, bad investment these days.
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That is damn lies and statistics right there. Finland shapes medicine? Who wrote that article? Are they really dim or do they have a serious anti-US bias? How about total citations by country from that data:
1 US 11,326,659
2 England 2,357,951
3 Germany 1,939,097
4 Japan 1,591,854
5 France 1,301,643
6 Italy 1,235,277
7 Canada 1,333,963
8 Netherlands 1,042,551
9 Australia 733,180
10 Sweden 713,694
11 Spain 532,146
12 Switzerland 614,622
13 Belgium 470,997
14 Scotland 374,017
15 Finland 386,397
16 Denmark 376,386
17 Austria 305,999
18 Israel 281,564
19 Norway 230,389
20 New Zealand 116,184
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Everyone needs to understand that the whole point of all academic rankings is to show how superior the EU is to the US, and they will use any statistical method in their possession to attempt to prove that point.
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... and just to play devil's advocate. You're saying that the US in no way would do the same?
How can you be so sure?
It may of been a per capita measure of sorts. If it was, then it would have been interesting to note, but in no way suggestive that Finland is the leading country for scientific research. I agree that it's a combo of quantity and quality.
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On the contrary, most of the major academic centers in the US are highly enamored with healthcare on the other side of the pond.
We have had studies that let us know all sorts of treasure troves of information.
nevertheless, some of the ridiculous things that I have seen put forth in the ridiculous studies:
The one above.
US infant mortality is worse than Cuba. As the parent of surviving quadruplets who were born at 26 weeks who sees all sorts of Cubans with mild medical illness by our standards show up after braving the Florida Straits for the opportunity to show up in our county ER, I highly doubt it.
US healthcare is always defined as worse than most socialized systems in studies that place great emphasis on "equity." Of COURSE the non-socialized system isn't as "equitable." It says nothing as to what happens to the average person when they get sick.
By the way, no one really likes the system here. I'm a major advocate of moving away from government in medicine, and almost everyone is in favor of movement towards or away from the government (aka doing something). I just don't believe that they've found a panacea in Europe either. I don't believe the way to fix US healthcare is to become Finland (or Cuba).
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OMFG, you are JOKING RIGHT?
Cuba?! CUBA? LMAO...........................................
okay okay, coffee has been spit on my keyboard.
You owe a flipping keyboard Midlife Castro guy.
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OMFG, you are JOKING RIGHT?
Cuba?! CUBA? LMAO...........................................
okay okay, coffee has been spit on my keyboard.
You owe a flipping keyboard Midlife Castro guy.
Dont' be upset because you learned something today LADOC. Cooobah!
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Yeah I learned non quilted TP will make my hemorrhoids RAGGGGGGGGEEEEEE.
"COOBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH. Its where the cheap hookers are."
Here are the lists of best medical schools in World and United States, for research and primary care separately.
Best 10 medical schools (primary care)
1. University of Washington
2. Oregon Health & Science University
3. University of California San Francisco
4. Mich. State U. Coll. of Osteopathic Medicine
5. University of Minnesota Duluth
6. University of California San Diego
7. University of New Mexico
8. University of Wisconsin Madison
9. University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)
10.University of Minnesota Twin Cities
Best 10 medical schools (research)
1. Harvard University
2. Johns Hopkins University
3. Washington University in St. Louis
4. Duke University
5. University of Pennsylvania
6. University of California San Francisco
7. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons
8. Stanford University
9 University of Michigan Ann Arbor
10. Yale University
The most prestigious medical school in the United States is probably the Harvard Medical School.It was founded in the eighteenth century. This school has produced Nobel Prize winners, spearheaded the development of the most modern technologies and pioneered breakthroughs in almost every aspect of medicine health and science. It is said that their acceptance rate is very low (round about 5%) and students need an average MCAT score of 11.7.
The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine is another excellent research medical school. It was founded in 1893, it also boasts of the same honors and qualifications like Harvard medical school. Another top medical schools are Duke Medical School and Stanford University.
Best 10 medical schools (primary care)
1. University of Washington
2. Oregon Health & Science University
3. University of California San Francisco
4. Mich. State U. Coll. of Osteopathic Medicine
5. University of Minnesota Duluth
6. University of California San Diego
7. University of New Mexico
8. University of Wisconsin Madison
9. University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)
10.University of Minnesota Twin Cities
Best 10 medical schools (research)
1. Harvard University
2. Johns Hopkins University
3. Washington University in St. Louis
4. Duke University
5. University of Pennsylvania
6. University of California San Francisco
7. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons
8. Stanford University
9 University of Michigan Ann Arbor
10. Yale University
The most prestigious medical school in the United States is probably the Harvard Medical School.It was founded in the eighteenth century. This school has produced Nobel Prize winners, spearheaded the development of the most modern technologies and pioneered breakthroughs in almost every aspect of medicine health and science. It is said that their acceptance rate is very low (round about 5%) and students need an average MCAT score of 11.7.
The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine is another excellent research medical school. It was founded in 1893, it also boasts of the same honors and qualifications like Harvard medical school. Another top medical schools are Duke Medical School and Stanford University.
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Where are you getting these lists?
Congrats Ladoc! You have just become a prime example of the reason why the majority of countries think Americans are ignorant, and egocentric! : )
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I believe you have a point there.
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OMFG, you are JOKING RIGHT?
Cuba?! CUBA? LMAO...........................................
okay okay, coffee has been spit on my keyboard.
You owe a flipping keyboard Midlife Castro guy.
Sheesh, read the actual post before writing something.
It merely said that if one took the hypothetical measurement of the best medical school to be one that delivers health care to the most people that don't normally get any, than ELAM would be a potential choice (the key phrase here would be hypothetical measurement of what constitutues the best medical school). Obviously no one here is stating that it offers as high a quality of education as the best North American medical schools.
Feel free to refute the post by offering up another medical school whose graduates offer health care to a larger number of people who don't normally receive any.
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I'm Not One Of Those Fancy College-Educated Doctors
By Dr. Mike Ruddy
http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-not-one-of-those-fancy-collegeeducated-doctors,11237/
By Dr. Mike Ruddy
http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-not-one-of-those-fancy-collegeeducated-doctors,11237/
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Take your US News lists and shove it - they're worthless, imho. For the primary care rankings, one of the biggest criteria they use to rank is the actual number of students who go into primary care. And last time I checked, that doesn't necessarily correlate to quality education.
The other list uses NIH funding. So sure, they may be conducting a lot of research, but what does that tell me about the quality of education one might receive there? NOTHING.
And last, a lot of US medical schools simply don't participate in the rankings, and that certainly has nothing to do with their quality (or lack thereof). So a decent percentage of the US schools aren't even submitting themselves to be ranked - how can this accurately tell you which schools are "the best" in the nation if this is the case?
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I agree with most of your post, but research funding does correlate to educational opportunities. Same as undergrad. Granted, it is by no means a causal relationship, but in general... more research funds correlates to more influential or relevant research (very very general) and thus more influential researchers. Again, in general, the more relevant research being done at a university means students have greater access to innovation, both through the investigators themselves, as well as hands-on access.
Anyway, the rankings are largely BS and inconsequential to those in the know, but unfortunately the majority are not. Until some other ranking organization/system establishes a better way, this will be debated on SDN for decades.
Thats a thought, I'd love for some statistical genius here on SDN to create their own rankings after taking in all the available data, and it could be debated and voted on in the forums. Then SDN could publish their own rankings to compete with US News... that'd be the day.
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They say it's Harvard Universityand I say yes it is...I know many popular medicine proffessional that came from this university and no doubt they are brilliant...
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Because no other medical school has ever produced a brilliant medical professional, right? I'm sure every school in existence has produced at least one "brilliant" doctor, but that doesn't say anything about the school's overall quality.
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Hello sir and madam,
I get my bachelor degree from international institution very renowned and want to come to USA for medical degree. I wish to go Harvard because it the best. Are you in agreement? What institution is second best in the opportunity I am declined.
Thank you much.
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Medical schools are the only post-college educational institutions, where ranking means very little, if at all. I rather go to an unranked school and do well on the boards than go to a top ranked "research" school and bomb the boards.
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I'm pretty sure that BMS (Best Medical School) is a school that represents Harvard Med in a popular medical fiction.
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Hahahaha, yeah it does, and The House of God is supposedly Beth Israel.
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It must be unfortunate for these Caribbean schools that it is the LCME that sets the standard for US schools and none of the Caribbean schools are LCME accredited... as far as state licenses, all students from Caribbean schools get the ECFGE certificates like students from any other foreign nation, so as long as the have the certificates and get a residency (which, while better shot than most FMG's, is much poorer than an grad of an American Medical School), and they pass the USMLE step exams, then they can become doctors just like your grad from UK, Sweden, South Africa, India... And I believe many of the Caribbean schools have difficulties in California
As far as being highly selective and not having as many students apply each year, while I don't have the actual statistics, the popular belief is that they are, for a large part, diploma mills and have selection standards below that of American Med Schools (which is why 99.999% of people will go to any US med school over even the top Caribbean school, so essentially the class is made up entirely of individuals who didn't make it into a US school).
No conversation about the best medical school should even include a hint of a caribbean school. End of story. The debate can rage on including the top programs in each country, but the caribbean schools wouldn't break the top 200 medical schools (there are 132 US-MD schools, 17 Canadian LCME schools, 25 Osteopathic Medical Schools, so thats 173 better schools, I am sure there are 27 schools throughout Europe and Asia that would top the Caribbean schools)...
caribbean med student here, starting anesthesia in july.
1) carib schools (the 4-5 good ones) are very stringent and are certainly NOT diploma mills, regardless of what you think.
2) Passsing USMLE Step 1is REQUIRED for us to even start rotations stateside.
3) lot of students in my class had good GPAs, good MCATs, but did not want to waste time re applying again and again. Also, it is very difficult to get into a medical school in certain states (cali for example) due to teh competition.
4) half of saba univ school of medicine is CDN...they could have gotten into U.S. schools but didnt b/c 1) too expensive, 2) not american residents. To get admission in Canadian med schools is very difficult.
LCME is a LOCAL body, extending to Canada, why the heck would it certify the Caribbean?!
St. George's, Ross, AUC and Saba has great matches every year. The system works. The schools work and thats why every year more and more people attend those schools because they have made a reputation for themselves.
I have never felt out of league or uncomfortable rotating with american med students. Infact quite the opposite, because there is so much pressure on carib grads to do well that they learn atleast usmle step 1 material and all that medical minutiae really well and PWN all the pimping sessions.
St. George's and the carib schools i have mentioned may not be as good as any of the stateside schools, but they are certainly better than any foreign school based on the number of matches, the rotation in states and the USMLE exam scores.
You can look that stuff up...
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