Best way to improve my application for the next round?

[capsomere]

This is long so I should apologize up front…
I applied to around 18 MD schools (mostly mid tiers) for the 2011-2012 cycle but it’s not looking good. I have yet to receive even one interview invite and the clock is ticking. I really don’t expect to get one at this point, so I’m trying to make a contingency plan to apply again for next cycle. The problem is there are only a few months left before the applications open again (and I’m working full time now) so I’m trying to figure out how I can remedy the deficiencies of my application.



Here is my application summary:
I should start this by saying I am a non-trad applicant, but that should be obvious if you read the below:

Graduated from a top 25 in December 2011:
cGPA:3.79, sGPA 3.65, MCAT 31 (13 BS, 9 PS, 9 VR)
3 BAs (neuroscience, psychology and Japanese )
AA in liberal studies (2004)


Research:
-6 months of full time research in a neuroscience lab (no publications/presentations b/c the research is nowhere near being completed)~800 hours
-Scholarship to study abroad in Japan for one year (conducted some personal research which later became my senior thesis)


Clinical (definitely my weakest area):
-Formal hospital volunteering program but only have about ~20 hours so far
-Currently setting up shadowing through hospital program listed above
-Working full time as a clinical research coordinator *** ~80 hours so far (just got the job in December)


Community service:
-4 months as a tutor/classroom aid at a domestic abuse shelter ~30 hours


Paid employment/random volunteering/random ECs:
-10 months working full time as an assistant editor ~1500 hours
-1.5 years as art director of small beauty products company ~2000 hours
-2 full-time customer service jobs (summer only, about 2 months)
-3 years working/volunteering at my school’s photo lab ~2000 hours (could the volunteering here technically be community service?)
-About a year as a camera operator, assistant camera operator, gaffer, and also cinematographer on a short film (all separate projects), and shadowing the director of a TV show (I have no idea how I would calculate the hours for this)à I listed the short film as a leadership project (it was six months long and I was one of the 3 main collaborators)
-Had my artwork shown in 3 separate exhibits (went to a top tier art school for a year)


***this was not listed on my application for this cycle
Grades in science classes:
Biology:
-Bio 1: A
-Bio 2: B-
-Molecular bio: A-
-Neuro research: A
-Neurobio: A- (not listed on this year’s app b/c I just took it in the fall)

Chemistry:
-Intro Chem: A (taken at state school)
-Gen Chem 1: C
-Gen Chem 2: B
-Org Chem 1: A
-Org Chem 2: A

Physics:

Physics 1: A (state school over summer)
Physics 2: C+

Math (when I started taking math I started from the beginning b/c it had been 8 years since I had taken a math class):

Algebra 1: A (CC)
Algebra 2: A (state school)
Trig: A (CC, summer)
Calc: A (CC, summer)
Stats 1: B (CC, summer)
Stats 2: A (state school)


Some Ws from when I went to CC but none are in science classes (just stuff I took for fun and ended up not liking)




With my job (~55 hours/week because I have a young child that needs food and a roof over her head) that doesn’t leave me much time to improve my application so I want to concentrate on just a few areas. I know there are plenty of weaknesses, but I want to minimize so of the more noxious flaws.

Right now I’m debating between retaking the MCAT, or taking some more upper division courses to boost my science GPA. Please keep in mind that I have about 300 semester units so my cGPA won’t really change that much if I take a few classes.

If my application is too weak to be improved in a short few months, would holding off one cycle be better?


Are those Cs really hurting me?



Would a master’s do me any good? Post-bac?

I’m kind of at a loss for what my best strategy is…

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you in advance.

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[Ismet]

I have no idea about non-trad applicants, but I think it's pretty safe to say that you need more clinical experience. Applying with just 20 hours of interacting with patients isn't enough. You seem to be on the right track, though, just keep up with that!

I don't think you should retake the MCAT. A 31 is a solid score, although it is unbalanced. I don't think the MCAT is what is keeping you from interviewing.

When were you complete at your schools? And what schools did you apply to?

 

[flodhi1]

I have no idea about non-trad applicants, but I think it's pretty safe to say that you need more clinical experience. Applying with just 20 hours of interacting with patients isn't enough. You seem to be on the right track, though, just keep up with that!

I don't think you should retake the MCAT. A 31 is a solid score, even though it is unbalanced. I don't think the MCAT is what is keeping you from interviewing.

When were you complete at your schools? And what schools did you apply to?

+1 The lack of clinical experience is most definitely hurting your application. Average applicants have 1.5 years in clinical experience. Most applicants have their clinical experience in the hundreds of hours and some even in the thousands. Therefore, I would suggest you really devote yourself to clinical experience which obviously includes shadowing, volunteering and get a LOR from a MD Physician. Good luck!

 

[capsomere]

I probably should have mentioned two important facts in my original post,

1) I applied in August and wasn't complete until September/October at most schools

2) I'm a California resident

As you might expect, I was a reluctant to apply this year because I didn't have the clinical hours, but my family pressured me to apply anyways. I was expecting to actually get more hours during the fall semester, but getting clear to volunteer in the hospital was a bigger and longer procedure than I ever imagined (the volunteer coordinator ended up taking over 2 1/2 months to get my volunteer cohort approved).

They funny this is, I met with an adcom of my university's med school and he told me it'd be fine to apply and approved the list of schools below.

Here are the schools I applied to this year:

1. Saint Louis University
2. University of Buffalo
3. Tufts
4. Rosalind Franklin
5. Wisconsin College of Medicine
6. Wayne State
7. UC Davis
8. UC Irvine
9. UC San Diego
10. USC
11. Penn State
12. University of Vermont
13. Jefferson Medical School
14. Loyola
15. University of Illinois
17. George Washington University
18. Boston University

I guess I applied a tad top heavy but that's because I'm a California resident. I did however get secondaries from all the California schools except UCSF and UCLA for some odd reason (I didn't fill out secondaries, which is why I didn't list them above).

I'm sure if I took the MCAT again right now I'd get the same score, but it would probably even out. I was average a 32 on practices with a distribution of 11 10 11 so I have no idea what happened on the test. I don't know how much I could realistically improve if I took it again.

So I shouldn't worry about fixing the two Cs? Just get more clinical? At my current job I take vitals, perform EKGs and assist with blood draws/infusions for several hours a day, so I wonder if that will count at all. What are your thoughts on this? The PI of our lab is an MD physician so I'm hoping a LOR from him will work. He's also a psychiatrist, which is what I put on my PS as the specialty in which I am most interested.

Any other thoughts? I was thinking to improve one of my science LORS as well, since it was from a math teacher, and some schools don't count that as a science LOR (which I didn't know until after I turned in my primary unfortunately).

Thanks again!

 

[flodhi1]

OP, thank you for the detailed post. Based on the information in your previous post, I think you should retake the MCAT. If you were not a California resident your score would have been excellent. However, now knowing your state residency and the schools you applied to, I would say you need some work on the MCAT. Quite frankly a lot more is expected from Cali residents compared to other state residents. California applicants tend to at least have double digits in all the sections. According to your practice MCAT average you were actually achieving double digits in all the sections and fell short in 2 sections, I believe that alone should be grounds for a retake assuming you don't get in this cycle. I think with your hard work and dedication you might even score in the mid-high 30s. I would start gearing up for the MCAT now and shoot for the April date. The usual explanation for this retake is that places such as California, Canada just has too many competitive applicants and you have to stand out. However, as I stated before your clinical experience is a major issue too and I can't stop stressing that to you. I read that it's been a struggle to get into the hospital volunteering programs. Well, my advice to you is that you should go to a walk in clinic or family practice and shadow/volunteer with primary care physicians. It's usually a lot easier to volunteer with family practices you just have to spend the time to find the right one. Your hours and commitment in other fields are impressive I just wish you had the same hours worth of clinical experience.
Another issue is that you did not apply broadly or early. I can assure you that had you applied in June and been complete before mid-July with a slightly expanded school list this entire cycle would have been a different story for you. I would appreciate it if you could spend some time reading my MDapps profile since I invested a lot of time in it. I mainly discussed certain strengths and weaknesses in an application based on my experience and the experiences of tons of my friends. Believe it or not but stats are not everything, I have friends that got into MD programs with MCAT scores as low as 25 and I also have friends that got rejected the entire cycle even with MCAT scores in the high 30s. I think it will help you out a bit especially with application dates, number of schools and types of ECs. Also read the personal statement section. If you want you can send me your personal statement and I would be happy to read it. I have addressed all these issues that I am stating to you in a much more detailed manner on there though. The LOR from the Psychiatrist/ MD will help you out massively especially if it's a strong LOR. Don't let anyone tell you that MD LORs are pointless because trust me they're not. At almost every single interview they have quoted comments from my MD in his LOR and they were very impressed.
In the end of the day my friend you are a more than capable applicant. Unfortunately, there are some slight issues in your application. However, you can easily take care of those issues and come back stronger.

 

[capsomere]

flodhi1, thank you for your detailed response and for suggesting I read your MDApps profile. It contains some good advice that I will surely heed.

I've been giving serious consideration to retaking the MCAT this spring. I don't know how I'll squeeze everything into my schedule and manage to improve my score, but I'll give it my best shot...I'm wondering if I should just skip this coming cycle and wait until the next one to apply...

You don't think my community service is too light? Between my junior college volunteer and domestic violence center tutoring I hope what I have already is sufficient.

I think time allocation is going to be my biggest issue. I've been sitting around with a calculator to figure out how to allocate my time and if I do a few hours a week I can probably get around 150 hours between shadowing and clinical volunteering. Do you think this is enough considering that my job will give me about 4 hours a day (half of my day is meeting with patients and half is paperwork) for about 6 months before AMCAS opens for this coming cycle (~500 hours)?

I'm not sure if I should put 50% of my effort into volunteering and 50% into MCAT or some other kind of time distribution. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking about maybe 20% of my extra time into volunteering and 80% into MCAT, but I'd like to see what others think about this.

 

[flodhi1]

Yes, I would go with 80 % MCAT and 20 % volunteering. I would say save the volunteering for weekends maybe? Idk how you want to adjust your schedule. Either way I think you're very close to attaining your goals. I will let others give their advice. Good luck!

 

[capsomere]

Thank you for the advice and the encouragement! I will keep this thread posted with any progress, news or outside advice I receive.

 

[StoicJosher]

I'm sure if I took the MCAT again right now I'd get the same score, but it would probably even out. I was average a 32 on practices with a distribution of 11 10 11 so I have no idea what happened on the test. I don't know how much I could realistically improve if I took it again.

Your MCAT of 31 is good if you have no qualms about moving out of CA. If you don't think you can improve on that (at least by 2 or 3 points), I suggest not retaking it and focusing completely on strengthening the clinical aspects of your application. While double digits in every section is ideal, I don't think not having it will hinder your ability to get into medical school if you apply broadly and smartly. You are a great applicant otherwise - I think schools just failed to see your motivation for the "Why MD" question.

But if you want to stay in CA, that is a whole 'nother problem.

 

[shinbeats]

As Stoic and flodhi1 stated before your MCAT score is decent for anyone in the country other than California. You can either move out of California and get a different state residency which might be impractical or you can just retake the MCAT and work on your extracurricular activities. I think I would stick with the latter. I think 70 % MCAT and 30 % clinical experience would be ideal but if your previous 80-20 % plan makes you more comfortable then be my guest

 

[TriagePreMed]

I'm definitely against the idea of retaking your MCAT. You are fine on that. You are fine on grades too. Clinical experience is shotty, but I don't think they sank you because of this. I would go ahead and apply again next time. Just keep the clinical experience going. Make a new personal statement and try to get new letters (in case one was bad). Re-apply very EARLY on the cycle and hope for the best.

 

[capsomere]

Yeah, I'll take some practice tests in a few weeks to gauge how much I could improve my MCAT score. I barely studied for a month the first time around so I definitely think I could put more time into it. Perhaps I could improve by 2 or 3 points IF I can keep my biology score up, but I'm guessing that would be my upper limit since applied math (i.e. the PS section) has never been my strong suit. My grades in chemistry and physics should attest to this.

In regards to the "why med" question, I don't think my PS that bad. I was fortunate enough to have an adcom at my university's med school (Keck) read it and he said it was good enough, although I'm certain I could improve it with this year's new experiences.

I don't have my heart set on California except for the fact that my wife already has a job in the Los Angeles area that was pretty difficult to get and which has been fairly good to her. It would be convenient to stay in LA and USC might be within reach if I improved my MCAT score (since I'm an alum and supposedly we get some points for that). On the other hand, UCLA and most of the other UCs (excluding Davis) are probably out of the question. As far as the UCs are concerned though, their being cheapish is probably the biggest draw for me.

So, that's 1 in favor of definitely retaking, 2 conditionally in favor, and 1 against...

This is getting interesting...

 

[flodhi1]

OP I did some research and I think you should definitely add the following schools to your application list. Yeah it will maybe cost you some more money for their primaries and secondaries but do you think sacrificing $500.00 and getting into medical school is better or not getting in at all? I ranked the schools in which you would have a chance by stars (3 stars for highest chance, 1 star for lowest but either way you should apply to all of them!!).

**Albany
***VCU
**EVMS
***NYMC
**SUNY Stony Brook
*Hofstra
*TCMC

 

[capsomere]

Thank your for doing the research flodhi1 and thank you everyone else for your comments.

Yes, I will definitely add those schools to the list for next year, especially EVMS and VCU. I actually sent a primary in to NYMC, but because I technically only had 1 science LOR (as per their guidelines) I couldn't complete the secondary. Otherwise NYMC would have been one of my top picks.

Although if I do remember from the secondaries, TCMC seems to be focused on individuals who are interested in rural medicine. Since I explicitly stated in my PS that my main interested in psychiatry, they might not consider me a good fit. I say this because that part of PS probably won't change and I would feel uncomfortable misleading the adcom to think I am passionate about something I am not necessarily passionate about.

Also, I had the impression that SUNY Stony Brook is not particularly OOS friendly, but perhaps I am wrong about this one too.

 

[flodhi1]

Thank your for doing the research flodhi1 and thank you everyone else for your comments.

Yes, I will definitely add those schools to the list for next year, especially EVMS and VCU. I actually sent a primary in to NYMC, but because I technically only had 1 science LOR (as per their guidelines) I couldn't complete the secondary. Otherwise NYMC would have been one of my top picks.

Although if I do remember from the secondaries, TCMC seems to be focused on individuals who are interested in rural medicine. Since I explicitly stated in my PS that my main interested in psychiatry, they might not consider me a good fit. I say this because that part of PS probably won't change and I would feel uncomfortable misleading the adcom to think I am passionate about something I am not necessarily passionate about.

Also, I had the impression that SUNY Stony Brook is not particularly OOS friendly, but perhaps I am wrong about this one too.

1/4 of Stony brook's class is OOS which is really not that bad compared to other schools and they tend to like California residents. They interview almost 8.9 % of their OOS applicants which is even higher than Drexel 8.1 % and VCU 8.4 % so according to the numbers they don't seem OOS unfriendly at all.

 

[StoicJosher]

Thank your for doing the research flodhi1 and thank you everyone else for your comments.

Yes, I will definitely add those schools to the list for next year, especially EVMS and VCU. I actually sent a primary in to NYMC, but because I technically only had 1 science LOR (as per their guidelines) I couldn't complete the secondary. Otherwise NYMC would have been one of my top picks.

Although if I do remember from the secondaries, TCMC seems to be focused on individuals who are interested in rural medicine. Since I explicitly stated in my PS that my main interested in psychiatry, they might not consider me a good fit. I say this because that part of PS probably won't change and I would feel uncomfortable misleading the adcom to think I am passionate about something I am not necessarily passionate about.

Also, I had the impression that SUNY Stony Brook is not particularly OOS friendly, but perhaps I am wrong about this one too.

I understand your point when you say you don't want to mislead an adcom with respect to the rural medicine aspect. But I would recommend against talking about psychiatry (or any particular field of medicine) in your PS. Firstly, the PS should address the "why MD" question. It should tell your story, reasons behind going into the medical field. Stating a definite career goal now is not required, won't help you, and may in fact hurt you, because you don't really know much about the medical side of psychiatry (besides the neuroscience research - or am I missing something?). It might come across as naive or too strong if you talked a lot about psychiatry as your sole goal in your PS. Plus, a lot of people who go into medical school end up changing their interests are clinical rotations.

 

[capsomere]

I understand your point when you say you don't want to mislead an adcom with respect to the rural medicine aspect. But I would recommend against talking about psychiatry (or any particular field of medicine) in your PS. Firstly, the PS should address the "why MD" question. It should tell your story, reasons behind going into the medical field. Stating a definite career goal now is not required, won't help you, and may in fact hurt you, because you don't really know much about the medical side of psychiatry (besides the neuroscience research - or am I missing something?). It might come across as naive or too strong if you talked a lot about psychiatry as your sole goal in your PS. Plus, a lot of people who go into medical school end up changing their interests are clinical rotations.

Yeah, I've debated about this with some of my pre-med friends and with the adcom I mentioned earlier. My friends have been sort of divided on it (since most of them haven't read my PS) but the adcom (who did read my PS) said it made sense in the context of my reason for pursuing medicine. He basically said that as long as I address the fact that I am still open minded about other specialties in my secondaries, I should be okay.

Perhaps I should get into my reason for pursuing medicine so you can be the judge of it. I'll just give you the gist of it, but I certainly don't mind PMing my PS to anyone who'd like to have a look at it. It never hurts...

My interest in psychiatry (and by extension medicine) began because of my experience with a close family member who suffered from mental illness his entire adult life and in whose treatment I became intimately involved. This consisted of attending therapy sessions with him, being his caretaker at home and helping the physician improve his treatment outcome, etc. Without that experience I'm not sure whether I would have started down this path in the first place. It was also through this experience that I realized my penchant (relatively speaking) for human behavior both from a biological/medical and psychological perspective. I hope this goes some way towards explaining the degrees in neuroscience and psychology and my interest in psychiatry.

Also, the clinical research site I work at services psychiatric patients exclusively so I get to see that population every day. I'm quite pleased with this prospect and would like to continue this in the future.

I could make my PS more generic, but I don't know why the "personal" part of my PS would come from exactly. I'm more than willing to allow you to be the judge...

------------

And thank you flodhi1 for the correction. A quick look at the MSAR says you are right...around 8-10% is fairly OOS friendly.

 

[capsomere]

As Stoic and flodhi1 stated before your MCAT score is decent for anyone in the country other than California. You can either move out of California and get a different state residency which might be impractical or you can just retake the MCAT and work on your extracurricular activities. I think I would stick with the latter. I think 70 % MCAT and 30 % clinical experience would be ideal but if your previous 80-20 % plan makes you more comfortable then be my guest

I am actually seriously considering this as I know two people who successfully did this, but I would probably have to live apart from my wife and daughter for a year so it would not be particularly easy on us...

 

[StoicJosher]

Yeah, I've debated about this with some of my pre-med friends and with the adcom I mentioned earlier. My friends have been sort of divided on it (since most of them haven't read my PS) but the adcom (who did read my PS) said it made sense in the context of my reason for pursuing medicine. He basically said that as long as I address the fact that I am still open minded about other specialties in my secondaries, I should be okay.

Perhaps I should get into my reason for pursuing medicine so you can be the judge of it. I'll just give you the gist of it, but I certainly don't mind PMing my PS to anyone who'd like to have a look at it. It never hurts...

My interest in psychiatry (and by extension medicine) began because of my experience with a close family member who suffered from mental illness his entire adult life and in whose treatment I became intimately involved. This consisted of attending therapy sessions with him, being his caretaker at home and helping the physician improve his treatment outcome, etc. Without that experience I'm not sure whether I would have started down this path in the first place. It was also through this experience that I realized my penchant (relatively speaking) for human behavior both from a biological/medical and psychological perspective. I hope this goes some way towards explaining the degrees in neuroscience and psychology and my interest in psychiatry.

Also, the clinical research site I work at services psychiatric patients exclusively so I get to see that population every day. I'm quite pleased with this prospect and would like to continue this in the future.

I could make my PS more generic, but I don't know why the "personal" part of my PS would come from exactly. I'm more than willing to allow you to be the judge...

------------

And thank you flodhi1 for the correction. A quick look at the MSAR says you are right...around 8-10% is fairly OOS friendly.

I am not saying you should make it generic. I am sorry if I gave you that idea. Also, I don't see anything wrong with the short blurb I read.

What I wanted to bring to your attention was the fact that your PS shouldn't strongly narrow in only on psychiatry. I say this because I know a person with extremely good stats (3.9+ GPA and 40+ MCAT) who has been rejected to half of the schools he applied to pre-interview and one post-interview (haven't heard back from others) partly because his PS was extremely focused on his interest in going into plastic surgery. While his situation is different from yours in many aspects of the application (and n = 1), I brought it up to point out that you should leave yourself open (like you seem to have done) and shouldn't narrow yourself in too much with psychiatry.

The PS is an important part of the application but it is (probably) not a make or break deal in most situations. I just wanted to point this one small thing I noticed that you can work on if you have to reapply (don't lose hope - there is still a few more months of interviews this cycle).

 

[capsomere]

I am not saying you should make it generic. I am sorry if I gave you that idea. Also, I don't see anything wrong with the short blurb I read.

What I wanted to bring to your attention was the fact that your PS shouldn't strongly narrow in only on psychiatry. I say this because I know a person with extremely good stats (3.9+ GPA and 40+ MCAT) who has been rejected to half of the schools he applied to pre-interview and one post-interview (haven't heard back from others) partly because his PS was extremely focused on his interest in going into plastic surgery. While his situation is different from yours in many aspects of the application (and n = 1), I brought it up to point out that you should leave yourself open (like you seem to have done) and shouldn't narrow yourself in too much with psychiatry.

The PS is an important part of the application but it is (probably) not a make or break deal in most situations. I just wanted to point this one small thing I noticed that you can work on if you have to reapply (don't lose hope - there is still a few more months of interviews this cycle).

Oh, don't worry, you didn't give me the wrong idea or anything. I probably just used the word "generic" a little bit carelessly . By generic I just meant "not too geared towards psychiatry specifically" which seems to be what you originally meant. Thank you for clearing that up anyways just in case other readers were wondering. Thank you for your vote of confidence about what I wrote though it'll help me in my final decision about how much to change.

I'm going to have to figure out a strategic, but still poignant way to make it less specific while still tying it into the impetus that lead me to my decision to pursue medicine. I will definitely have a much wider selection of people read my PS this time around and since I'm more familiar with the secondaries I can sort of figure out what I can leave for each secondary I guess.

I haven't lost hope quite yet, but there are only 10 schools left that haven't rejected me at this point xf so I just wanted to get a feel for how to spend the next six months or so.

I think a big part of my quandary is that I'm not sure if my strategy itself didn't work or I didn't apply early/broadly enough or both. This is what I'm really trying to narrow down.

 

[StoicJosher]

Oh, don't worry, you didn't give me the wrong idea or anything. I probably just used the word "generic" a little bit carelessly . By generic I just meant "not too geared towards psychiatry specifically" which seems to be what you originally meant. Thank you for clearing that up anyways just in case other readers were wondering. Thank you for your vote of confidence about what I wrote though it'll help me in my final decision about how much to change.

I'm going to have to figure out a strategic, but still poignant way to make it less specific while still tying it into the impetus that lead me to my decision to pursue medicine. I will definitely have a much wider selection of people read my PS this time around and since I'm more familiar with the secondaries I can sort of figure out what I can leave for each secondary I guess.

I haven't lost hope quite yet, but there are only 10 schools left that haven't rejected me at this point xf so I just wanted to get a feel for how to spend the next six months or so.

I think a big part of my quandary is that I'm not sure if my strategy itself didn't work or I didn't apply early/broadly enough or both. This is what I'm really trying to narrow down.

Follow the advice on flodhi's MDapps about having strangers or people with no connection to you read your PS. Having friends, family etc read your PS introduces a bias. If you do end up re-applying and need help with the PS (for some reason, I have good vibes about you getting in this cycle), I suggest getting your PS read by people here on SDN. I didn't have anyone outside of SDN critique my PS when I applied (my friends/family did read it but mostly just to read it). When the cycle rolls around, lots of people volunteer to read PS's here.

The lack of rejection is good. Hopefully you here some good news this time around. From what I understand, there is usually a mass exodus on interview invites around sept-oct time and another around jan-feb time.

Good luck!

 

[capsomere]

Thank you for the luck, I'm going to need it. I finally entered the interview pool for RFU today, but I doubt it'll come to anything. If anything I hope Wisconsin COM pans out, but I'm not holding my breath...