Better medical school = better residency?

[MedicineForLife 777]

How important is a "good" medical school when it comes to residencies? Will a higher ranked school give you a better chance at a more competitive residency? Will a better school make it easier to get into a residency program? Or does this all depend on your scores like GPA and STEP scores?

I was kind of thinking this whole process is kind of like college to medical school. Getting into a good school depends on factors like GPA and MCAT scores more so than where you went to college.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

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[owenmichael]

How important is a "good" medical school when it comes to residencies? Will a higher ranked school give you a better chance at a more competitive residency? Will a better school make it easier to get into a residency program? Or does this all depend on your scores like GPA and STEP scores?

I was kind of thinking this whole process is kind of like college to medical school. Getting into a good school depends on factors like GPA and MCAT scores more so than where you went to college.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

I used to think, based on what I read on this forum and what I heard from pre-med students, that where you go to med school doesn't matter as long as you do well. I agree with this to some extent. After talking to alot of residency directors when I was making my med school choice between a top ten school and my state school, they gave me the impression that going to a top, prestigious school gives you a good shot a great shot at prestigious residencies, while if you go to a great state school, you nee dto finish AOA (top 5%) for sure to get a residency you want. Just a collection of opinions i've heard from others though.

 

[UCLAMAN]

I used to think, based on what I read on this forum and what I heard from pre-med students, that where you go to med school doesn't matter as long as you do well. I agree with this to some extent. After talking to alot of residency directors when I was making my med school choice between a top ten school and my state school, they gave me the impression that going to a top, prestigious school gives you a good shot a great shot at prestigious residencies, while if you go to a great state school, you nee dto finish AOA (top 5%) for sure to get a residency you want. Just a collection of opinions i've heard from others though.

agree completely with OM...i used to think the same thing. however, as OM has said, going to a "name brand" gives you a batter chance at matching to a "name brand" residency. every year you will hear our 4th years say that the northwestern name carries a decent amount of weight along the interview trail. when applying for a residency, you want all the weight you can get depending on the specialty.

 

[wannaberad]

Oh yeah. And if you want to be an academic, it's even more important.

However, there is a catch: you might be better off at a low-ranking school with AOA than at a medium-high-ranking school without it. I'm honestly not sure about this; can anyone comment?

 

[LJDHC05]

I can only speak for two schools: Harvard and NYMC

So Harvard is the premier school that everyone wants to go to. The truth is that they take care of their students and send many of them into Harvard affiliated residencies. But a crimson HMS emblem on your diploma doesn't automatically get you into a super-selective residency program. It's still a product of the match process, which is a computer algorithm that crunches your top 5 program choices with where the program ranked you in relation to the rest of their interviewees.

NYMC, the default school for many people who dont get in anywhere else and seems to get crapped on as a low-tier school constantly on SDN, consistently places kids into Harvard affiliated and competitive residencies(2006 match list) .

Take it for what it's worth...

 

[UCLAMAN]

I can only speak for two schools: Harvard and NYMC

So Harvard is the premier school that everyone wants to go to. The truth is that they take care of their students and send many of them into Harvard affiliated residencies. But a crimson HMS emblem on your diploma doesn't automatically get you into a super-selective residency program. It's still a product of the match process, which is a computer algorithm that crunches your top 5 program choices with where the program ranked you in relation to the rest of their interviewees.

NYMC, the default school for many people who dont get in anywhere else and seems to get crapped on as a low-tier school constantly on SDN, consistently places kids into Harvard affiliated and competitive residencies(2006 match list) .

Take it for what it's worth...

this is true...you can indeed go to harvard residencies from nymc. however, all things being equal, if you were a residency program director, would you rank the harvard student higher of the nymc student higher on your hospital's rank list?

ii think the point is that your school is not the end all be all fast track to the best residency. there are multiple factors that invovle matching into a good program. however, it can certainly help you if you went to a name brand medical school. when program directors make their rank lists theres a lot of subjectivity that goes into it. justified or not, the kid from hopkins may get more a benefit of the doubt than the kid from chicago med. school is certainly just one of many factors though. but hey...if possible why not take all the help you can get?(so long as the financial tradeoff is not completely unreasonable. ie state vs. private)

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

this is true...you can indeed go to harvard residencies from nymc. however, all things being equal, if you were a residency program director, would you rank the harvard student higher of the nymc student higher on your hospital's rank list?

I would definitely look at the apps from the ppl at the best schools, but if the numbers are higher and the interview is better with the person from NYMC, then I would rank the NYMC applicant higher.

My opinion.

 

[strawberryfield]

I can only speak for two schools: Harvard and NYMC

So Harvard is the premier school that everyone wants to go to. The truth is that they take care of their students and send many of them into Harvard affiliated residencies. But a crimson HMS emblem on your diploma doesn't automatically get you into a super-selective residency program. It's still a product of the match process, which is a computer algorithm that crunches your top 5 program choices with where the program ranked you in relation to the rest of their interviewees.

NYMC, the default school for many people who dont get in anywhere else and seems to get crapped on as a low-tier school constantly on SDN, consistently places kids into Harvard affiliated and competitive residencies(2006 match list) .

Take it for what it's worth...

maybe the residency directors at certain hosptials are more familiar with the programs at top schools like Harvard while they know less about places like NYMC... it seems like a lot of residency programs consistently admit grads from certain med schools and this explains it-- not necessarily true that Harvard grads are better trained, but the residency director is more familar with the quality/type of students that come out of that program... just my $.02...

 

[Entirecropslost]

Hey, can someone explain this - why does average joe medical schools have very similar matches to top tier schools. I'm looking at the MSAR, and I know just getting dermatology does say where they did their residency. I'm sure harvard ppl get better dermatology residencies. BUT my question is why aren't more harvard ppl going into orthapedics and surgery. I mean these are more saught after specialities right? It almost appears that each school has to turn on X% ob/gyn and X% everything else. So what's the deal???

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

Hey, can someone explain this - why does average joe medical schools have very similar matches to top tier schools. I'm looking at the MSAR, and I know just getting dermatology does say where they did their residency. I'm sure harvard ppl get better dermatology residencies. BUT my question is why aren't more harvard ppl going into orthapedics and surgery. I mean these are more saught after specialities right? It almost appears that each school has to turn on X% ob/gyn and X% everything else. So what's the deal???

Because they didn't want to do ortho or surgery.

Match lists are confusing this way, because looking at them doesn't really tell you much about the school other than what specialities a certain class wanted to go into. I'm willing to guess that at least 50% of the reason why "top" medical schools send students to "top" residencies is the following:

1) Program directors tend to take their own. Your best chance of going into (insert field) lies in your home institution.

2) Failing criterion #1, program directors take those they know. Your next best chance of going into (insert field) lies in places you have personally rotated at and have established a relationship with.

3) Failing criteria #1 and #2, program directors will consider interviewing people who are personally recommended to them by their peers. Here's where the networking helps. If your attending is well-known, she might be able to use her contacts to help you get interviews at other schools, just because she knows those people. Therefore, it behooves you to go to a school where the faculty are well-known.

So in the end, going to a better-ranked school certainly helps, but you can certainly do well even if you're not in a top 10 school. It's just like applying to medical school. Going to the Ivy League helps get you into good medical schools, but having good scores helps too.

 

[owenmichael]

Because they didn't want to do ortho or surgery.

Match lists are confusing this way, because looking at them doesn't really tell you much about the school other than what specialities a certain class wanted to go into. I'm willing to guess that at least 50% of the reason why "top" medical schools send students to "top" residencies is the following:

1) Program directors tend to take their own. Your best chance of going into (insert field) lies in your home institution.

2) Failing criterion #1, program directors take those they know. Your next best chance of going into (insert field) lies in places you have personally rotated at and have established a relationship with.

3) Failing criteria #1 and #2, program directors will consider interviewing people who are personally recommended to them by their peers. Here's where the networking helps. If your attending is well-known, she might be able to use her contacts to help you get interviews at other schools, just because she knows those people. Therefore, it behooves you to go to a school where the faculty are well-known.

So in the end, going to a better-ranked school certainly helps, but you can certainly do well even if you're not in a top 10 school. It's just like applying to medical school. Going to the Ivy League helps get you into good medical schools, but having good scores helps too.

I completely agree with this post. Having spoken to some residency directors at big name institutes (family friends), they say that networking, peer's opinions of their students at other institutions, the name of an institution really helps and seperates you from other students. That being said, yous till need good scores

 

[Nerd]

I completely agree with this post. Having spoken to some residency directors at big name institutes (family friends), they say that networking, peer's opinions of their students at other institutions, the name of an institution really helps and seperates you from other students. That being said, yous till need good scores

sorry but what is "AOA"?

 

[str8flexed]

Because they didn't want to do ortho or surgery.

Match lists are confusing this way, because looking at them doesn't really tell you much about the school other than what specialities a certain class wanted to go into. I'm willing to guess that at least 50% of the reason why "top" medical schools send students to "top" residencies is the following:

1) Program directors tend to take their own. Your best chance of going into (insert field) lies in your home institution.

2) Failing criterion #1, program directors take those they know. Your next best chance of going into (insert field) lies in places you have personally rotated at and have established a relationship with.

3) Failing criteria #1 and #2, program directors will consider interviewing people who are personally recommended to them by their peers. Here's where the networking helps. If your attending is well-known, she might be able to use her contacts to help you get interviews at other schools, just because she knows those people. Therefore, it behooves you to go to a school where the faculty are well-known.

So in the end, going to a better-ranked school certainly helps, but you can certainly do well even if you're not in a top 10 school. It's just like applying to medical school. Going to the Ivy League helps get you into good medical schools, but having good scores helps too.

That last part about Ivy League schools just made my day. I love you.

 

[Dr Durden]

AOA = Alpha Omega Alpha, a medical honor society for top students. Definitely a huge plus to have on your resume during the match process.

 

[jackieMD2007]

Better USMLE score= Better residency.

It is arguable that you will be able to get a better score simply by attending a top-tier school. It is arguable whether the "brand name" of your school will give you that much help if your USMLE is not strong. I have a good friend who just went through the match process, so I got to observe the situation. She had kick-ass USMLE scores, though, so that changes everything.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Top score at a lower tier school is far better than an average or weak score at a "top" school.

 

[Law2Doc]

Top score at a lower tier school is far better than an average or weak score at a "top" school.

True. Plus the permutations of "better" residency are pretty fluid. Lots of the top students at Harvard, Hopkins (and all the other schools down the line) don't go into derm or ophthal, etc, and choose things like subspecialties of IM, surgery, etc.. Career choices are interest driven, not everyone gunning for the most competitive choice, just because it is competitive. The days of trophy collecting ended in undergrad; you need a better reason to pick a specialty than that others want it.
It is thus hard to tell if a match list is good by looking at specialty. If everyone at a lower tier school wanted IM, and all got their first choice in terms of location (which may not be Harvard), then it's an awesome match list, notwithstanding that no one matched into derm. And some schools not in the top 10 are simply known to be the best places for certain specialties, so called "meccas". Don't get too bogged down by US News -- when you get to med school you will have advisors who will tell you what places have the good reps; you may be surprised.
To answer the original question, a brand name med school might help modestly for some of the tougher sought after residencies. But those residencies might not be "better" unless they are actually the path to your dream job.

 

[kingcer0x]

Going to a top notch school is only an advantage if you are the average student in terms of board scores, grades, EC's, etc. PDs think that even though on paper you match up with someone from somewhere else, through the course of 4 years (and esp. year 3) you probably picked up on stuff that will make the transition to their program easier for you. Plus, going to a top school is a good way to network with attendings, PDs, administrators, in order to build the connections you need to get the residency you want. It is well known that the mode of the distribution where people match to in any medical school will be an affiliated program.

 

[8744]

True. Plus the permutations of "better" residency are pretty fluid. Lots of the top students at Harvard, Hopkins (and all the other schools down the line) don't go into derm or ophthal, etc, and choose things like subspecialties of IM, surgery, etc.. Career choices are interest driven, not everyone gunning for the most competitive choice, just because it is competitive. The days of trophy collecting ended in undergrad; you need a better reason to pick a specialty than that others want it.
It is thus hard to tell if a match list is good by looking at specialty. If everyone at a lower tier school wanted IM, and all got their first choice in terms of location (which may not be Harvard), then it's an awesome match list, notwithstanding that no one matched into derm. And some schools not in the top 10 are simply known to be the best places for certain specialties, so called "meccas". Don't get too bogged down by US News -- when you get to med school you will have advisors who will tell you what places have the good reps; you may be surprised.
To answer the original question, a brand name med school might help modestly for some of the tougher sought after residencies. But those residencies might not be "better" unless they are actually the path to your dream job.

I have never understood the obsession people have with going to a "top-tier" medical school or getting a residency at a prestigious program (Unless you want a career in academics which most people don't). Is it an ego thing? I admit that I like telling people I did my preliminary year at Duke but if I could do it over I would have stayed in Shreveport, Lousiana and probably have gotten better training to boot. (Because the more prestigious the institution the more sub-specialty availability you have to "punt" to.)

I think people in the Northeast are kind of provincial in this respect as many of them would never consider going to the Midwest or the South.