Biden’s proposed ban on non-compete clauses

[Papermate44]

Wanted to get all you smart people’s opinion on how banning non compete clauses might affect someone in search for a pain job in the next year. Would private pain practices truly be banned from non compete clauses? Honestly it’s one of the biggest deterrents for looking for a new job currently for the fear of moving my whole family cross country then discovering I hate the job…

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[SSdoc33]

sounds amazing. and not just for docs. it really does control the little guy and the big corporations (hospitals) have all the sway

lets see the language when it actually happens

Biden to sign executive order curtailing noncompete clauses

They are particularly challenging for people who cannot afford to go without work between jobs

www.axios.com

but wait, i thought that democrats never help doctors.....

 

[Laryngospasm]

It would be nice. Personally I feel like they should be illegal.

 

[Agast]

Biggest benefit would be to allow doctors to leave hospitals and take their patient rosters with them.

 

[Ducttape]

take their patient rosters with them

I'm pretty sure that will not be part of the change. that is different from the non-compete clause.

 

[nvrsumr]

I would be less likely to hire a new doc if they can just set up shop across the street after learning everything about my practice. Would be harder for a NP or PA to do....

 

[thecentral09]

As a hospital employee, I think it’s the best thing that could happen.
I once had the COO of our hospital system Tell me during negotiations that two or three years of physician control is worth millions if a hospital is in the process of being sold to another hospital. Taking that off the table would only be of benefit for physicians

 

[deleted284725]

I don’t see how anyone can be against this tbh. Unless you own/profit off a big group or corporation that takes advantage and mistreats its docs. In which case you’ll just have to offer better contracts. Win win for individual physicians.

 

[Papermate44]

I would be less likely to hire a new doc if they can just set up shop across the street after learning everything about my practice. Would be harder for a NP or PA to do....

I sort of see your point, but you’d honestly rather train our replacements than offer a contract to a physician that would make them want to stay?

 

[RoloTomassi]

I sort of see your point, but you’d honestly rather train our replacements than offer a contract to a physician that would make them want to stay?

You're assuming the doc would be an asset. Lots of shady, toxic pain docs that you wouldn't want to keep in your practice.

But overall good for physicians.

 

[Iamnew2]

sounds amazing. and not just for docs. it really does control the little guy and the big corporations (hospitals) have all the sway

lets see the language when it actually happens

Biden to sign executive order curtailing noncompete clauses

They are particularly challenging for people who cannot afford to go without work between jobs

www.axios.com

but wait, i thought that democrats never help doctors.....

I agree! Non compete clauses are BS and don't even know if they exist in most industries for one. For two a lot of IC still have non competes in their contracts which technically is illegal and a violation of IC. There is no reason why non competes - particularly onerous ones or for places one has not worked at - should apply.

 

[RoloTomassi]

When would this become legally enforceable? FTC has to act first?

 

[Baron Samedi]

Good. Non-compete clauses are non-consitutional. A private business should be not allowed to deny a citizen their livelihood.

 

[Papermate44]

View attachment 340299
When would this become legally enforceable? FTC has to act first?

I have no clue. One article I read said Biden was expected to act in the next few days. I can’t find anything on the expected timeline though.

 

[SSdoc33]

Crickets from drusso.....

 

[Baron Samedi]

I would be less likely to hire a new doc if they can just set up shop across the street after learning everything about my practice. Would be harder for a NP or PA to do....

This mindset is why every young doc I know who joined an existing practice absolutely hates it.

 

[Agast]

Crickets from drusso.....

Don't get too excited. Nobody cares about helping out doctors...and then you'll get a whole grasshopper orchestra from drusso coming your way

 

[DOctorJay]

The Next Decision - Free Agency for Physicians

In 1969 the St. Louis Cardinal’s all-star center fielder, Curt Flood, challenged the reserve clause in Major League Baseball and opened the door for free agency in professional sports.

www.linkedin.com

“By April 2020, everything about that concept had changed. Employers made unilateral changes to physician contracts—including changes to compensation, job descriptions, work assignments, medical decision-making, and access to protective equipment. Physicians were furloughed, forced to take paid time off, or terminated. The security and protection physicians assumed they had when becoming employed by health systems is gone.

The pandemic forced all of us to think about the consequences of our individual health decisions – hopefully it will also force physicians to begin demanding their free agency.”

 

[anonperson]

Biggest benefit would be to allow doctors to leave hospitals and take their patient rosters with them.

That won't happen. Contracts are written to prevent physicians from taking patients.

Non compete clauses are illegal in California and all of my contracts have indicated that the patients "belong" to the health system and I can't poach patients.

If they want to leave on their own and follow, that's up to each patient.

 

[hyperalgesia]

We're all adults. If we don't agree to a non compete clause, we don't sign the contract. For others it's worth it.

I think existing state laws are more than capable of determining if a contract is/was misleading or somehow predatory without uncle Joe coming to the rescue.

The market will obviously respond to this order by favoring employment candidates who are less likely to be a future competitive threat.

What then? Is "discrimination" allowed in such cases?

 

[nvrsumr]

I am just pointing out a possible unintended consequence.

My office is located exactly 5.1 miles from my previous employer. My “noncompete” was 5 miles. We have liquidated damages in CO which is somehow different than a noncompete but same effect.

Im sorry to hear some young docs don’t like their associate PP gigs. I didn’t like mine either and suggest they open their own practice.

 

[anonperson]

We're all adults. If we don't agree to a non compete clause, we don't sign the contract. For others it's worth it.

I think existing state laws are more than capable of determining if a contract is/was misleading or somehow predatory without uncle Joe coming to the rescue.

The market will obviously respond to this order by favoring employment candidates who are less likely to be a future competitive threat.

What then? Is "discrimination" allowed in such cases?

Non competes should be outlawed in general. They are a way for employers to keep compensation low and create poor working conditions.

Why should a physicians ability to earn a living be limited because they don't want to work with their current employer?

Just remove the concept entirely and employers can't even use this shady tactic to begin with.

 

[deleted284725]

We're all adults. If we don't agree to a non compete clause, we don't sign the contract. For others it's worth it.

I think existing state laws are more than capable of determining if a contract is/was misleading or somehow predatory without uncle Joe coming to the rescue.

The market will obviously respond to this order by favoring employment candidates who are less likely to be a future competitive threat.

What then? Is "discrimination" allowed in such cases?

In what way does a non compete benefit individual physicians, patients, or anyone but large hospital systems/groups? Or was this just a preconceived conclusion searching for an explanation? Here, I’ll put it in “free market” terms:Non compete clauses are inherently anti-free market. If an employer cannot compete with a former employee they should not be protected just because they got there first.

 

[hyperalgesia]

In what way does a non compete benefit individual physicians, patients, or anyone but large hospital systems/groups? Or was this just a preconceived conclusion searching for an explanation? Here, I’ll put it in “free market” terms:Non compete clauses are inherently anti-free market. If an employer cannot compete with a former employee they should not be protected just because they got there first.

You make a good point about noncompete clauses being inherently anti free market. I do think the govt has an active role in preventing abuse by monopoly powers.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

You make a good point about noncompete clauses being inherently anti free market. I do think the govt has an active role in preventing abuse by monopoly powers.

Just an anecdote but I knew a neurosurgeon who wanted to switch from one academic medical center in town to the other. He had to do locums and work over an hour away for three years due to the radius and duration of the non-compete (it may have only need 20 miles or something like that, but that included from every one of their satellite locations and clinics around the metro area. They family was all there so leaving the area wasn’t a good option. This kind of crap is how the MBAs and lawyers keep doctors prisoner and pull bait and switch tricks where the contract gets “renegotiated” after 3 years. I’m in CA where non-competes are severely limited. As a partner I have one that is 3 years and extends to the whole county, but I’m pretty sure a good lawyer could get me out of it if it came to that. The argument that I’d be competing with the group is pretty flimsy when I’m the only anesthesia pain guy in a group of orthopedic surgeons and sports docs.

 

[drusso]

Don't get too excited. Nobody cares about helping out doctors...and then you'll get a whole grasshopper orchestra from drusso coming your way

@SSdoc33

I posted this under another thread.

I think noncompetes have merit if an entity can demonstrate a risk of losing proprietary intellectual property or harm from the competition. Those would be very unusual situations in health care. Everything we "know" in medicine is in the public domain or otherwise regulated.

I think they are abused in physician employment contracts to restrain trade.

I don't think Biden was trying to help out doctors. But, I do think there is growing awareness that the "gig is up" with monopolistic nominally non-profit hospitals employing doctors, then juicing the vig on the SOS and driving up prices.

Here's the problem: Most doctors are morally okay being complicit with the HOPD racket. People here brag about it.

 

[RoloTomassi]

Good read about the realities of the order:

President Biden Seeks to Regulate (and Potentially Ban) Non-Competes

On July 9, 2021, President Biden issued his Executive Order on Promoting Competition in the American Economy. Earlier in the day, the White House issued a press release announcing that the anticipated order would, “[m]ake it easier to change jobs and help raise wages by banning or limiting...

www.littler.com

 

[Ferrismonk]

Non-compete clauses suck, but as with anything you can negotiate before you sign the contract. The real problem is people don't realize these are negotiable.

Also, if I was going to change things, I would limit non-competes clauses to smaller companies. If the solo practitioner hired someone who leaves and opens up next door, it's a huge problem. If a single doc leaves a hospital system and opens up next door, it's not going to significantly effect the hospital business.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Non-compete clauses suck, but as with anything you can negotiate before you sign the contract. The real problem is people don't realize these are negotiable.

I've yet to see anyone successfully negotiate one out of their contract. It is a deal breaker for most potential employers. They'll negotiate time off, salary, parking, etc but they just won't let the non-compete go.

 

[nvrsumr]

Be your own boss. Problem solved.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Be your own boss. Problem solved.

Or thoughtful Executive Action that empowers workers problem solved?

 

[Orin]

Don't confuse non-compete with non-solicit. Non compete prevents you from working at all.
Non solicitation covenants keep you from stealing your old patients/staff.

The former may be covered by this depending on how the FTC argues. The latter may not and could likely be argued as trade secrets/insider knowledge that businesses need to protect.

 

[nvrsumr]

Nothing is more -empowering -than being in control.

 

[deleted284725]

Nothing is more -empowering -than being in control.

-Ted Bundy

 

[nvrsumr]

I’m a advocate for docs to own their practices. That’s all I’m saying. Thanks for comparing me to a serial killer. Very collegial

 

[Agast]

I've yet to see anyone successfully negotiate one out of their contract. It is a deal breaker for most potential employers. They'll negotiate time off, salary, parking, etc but they just won't let the non-compete go.

Don't confuse non-compete with non-solicit. Non compete prevents you from working at all.
Non solicitation covenants keep you from stealing your old patients/staff.

l

I offered someone a contract specifically without a noncompete because it was at the start of the pandemic and we had no idea whether we would shut down again. They thought the salary was too low and chose unemployment for the year instead *shrug*

In Texas you’re required to announce/inform your patients if you are leaving your current practice. Even sending letters out to the patients you’ve seen in the last two years

TMB rules for physicians who retire, close, or leave a practice

Retiring, closing, or leaving a practice? You can now notify patients electronically and on your website.

hub.tmlt.org

Most doctors don’t do that. I suppose a non solicit clause would prevent you from including your new address, but a determined patient with Google can find you pretty easily.

 

[deleted284725]

-Ted Bundy

I’m a advocate for docs to own their practices. That’s all I’m saying. Thanks for comparing me to a serial killer. Very collegial

Oh come on, that quote does sound kind of creepy out of context.

 

[drusso]

I offered someone a contract specifically without a noncompete because it was at the start of the pandemic and we had no idea whether we would shut down again. They thought the salary was too low and chose unemployment for the year instead *shrug*

In Texas you’re required to announce/inform your patients if you are leaving your current practice. Even sending letters out to the patients you’ve seen in the last two years

TMB rules for physicians who retire, close, or leave a practice

Retiring, closing, or leaving a practice? You can now notify patients electronically and on your website.

hub.tmlt.org

Most doctors don’t do that. I suppose a non solicit clause would prevent you from including your new address, but a determined patient with Google can find you pretty easily.

Non-competes are for pu$$ies.

 

[Ducttape]

I've yet to see anyone successfully negotiate one out of their contract. It is a deal breaker for most potential employers. They'll negotiate time off, salary, parking, etc but they just won't let the non-compete go.

i negotiated my noncompete clause down significantly.




most places will request that you send out notice that you are leaving, but will not allow you to send out notice as to where you are going or how to transfer your care to that new office/practice.

 

[Ferrismonk]

I've yet to see anyone successfully negotiate one out of their contract. It is a deal breaker for most potential employers. They'll negotiate time off, salary, parking, etc but they just won't let the non-compete go.

Make it a deal breaker for you as well.

I get the interest of the potential employer to have a non-compete, so I wasn't all bent out of shape about it. I negotiated that if I chose to leave, I couldn't work within a certain radius of the physical locations I worked at that were still open at the time I quit. They obviously initially wanted a non-compete within a certain radius of all their locations. I also negotiated that if they chose to let me go, there was no non-compete.

As far a non-solicit, I have no problem not poaching my prior patients. I of course told the ones that asked where I was going. Also, patients will find you on google if they want to follow you. No poaching needed.

 

[DOctorJay]

What ending noncompetes means for ASCs, physicians: 8 notes

President Joe Biden signed an executive order July 9 encouraging the Federal Trade Commission to limit or ban noncompete agreements.

www.beckersasc.com

 

[FrustratedFamDoc]

I'm hoping this actually comes to pass but the jaded cynic in me sees a political stunt.

We all know both sides are deeply in the pocket of big business. Could this announcement be nothing more than a claxon to big business that it's time to pay up and fill the campaign coffers up a little bit more? The issue will go on radio silence for months then come election time, we will find out that it narrowly failed (has to be narrowly) to gain traction due to those greedy, money hungry bastards on the other side of the isle. That's why you need to vote for us! Both sides do it and play us for the suckers that we have shown to be.

It's almost like a pool hustle in that way. The hustler has a mortal lock on the match but has to barely win to keep the mark on the hook. He may even let the fish win a few meaningless games to bleed him completely dry in the end.

I always get a little skeptical when Washington proposes a move that will reduce power from their establishment.

 

[bronx43]

I'm hoping this actually comes to pass but the jaded cynic in me sees a political stunt.

We all know both sides are deeply in the pocket of big business. Could this announcement be nothing more than a claxon to big business that it's time to pay up and fill the campaign coffers up a little bit more? The issue will go on radio silence for months then come election time, we will find out that it narrowly failed (has to be narrowly) to gain traction due to those greedy, money hungry bastards on the other side of the isle. That's why you need to vote for us! Both sides do it and play us for the suckers that we have shown to be.

It's almost like a pool hustle in that way. The hustler has a mortal lock on the match but has to barely win to keep the mark on the hook. He may even let the fish win a few meaningless games to bleed him completely dry in the end.

I always get a little skeptical when Washington proposes a move that will reduce power from their establishment.

I mean, that's always a possibility with politics. However, I think the zeitgeist is strongly in favor of labor over capital. The youth in this country are strongly left leaning, and are not going to tolerate the old paradigm. Even businesses are realizing this fact, and pander to the younger, left generation. My main fear is that the legislation passed from this EO will only include "low-wage" workers and exclude tech workers and physicians.

 

[SSdoc33]

I mean, that's always a possibility with politics. However, I think the zeitgeist is strongly in favor of labor over capital. The youth in this country are strongly left leaning, and are not going to tolerate the old paradigm. Even businesses are realizing this fact, and pander to the younger, left generation. My main fear is that the legislation passed from this EO will only include "low-wage" workers and exclude tech workers and physicians.

? do mcdonalds and walmart have non-compete clauses?

"should" include everyone across the board

 

[FrustratedFamDoc]

I mean, that's always a possibility with politics. However, I think the zeitgeist is strongly in favor of labor over capital. The youth in this country are strongly left leaning, and are not going to tolerate the old paradigm. Even businesses are realizing this fact, and pander to the younger, left generation. My main fear is that the legislation passed from this EO will only include "low-wage" workers and exclude tech workers and physicians.

The EO is "encouraging" the FTC to make the change. If just feels like a setup to me. I know EO's aren't durable after the pres leaves office, but if he felt so strongly over the issue, he could of cancelled them himself with the stroke of a pen. It would of gone over as a widely popular move with the overwhelming majority of Americans. What new president would ever override such a move? Political capital is being sought.

 

[bronx43]

The EO is "encouraging" the FTC to make the change. If just feels like a setup to me. I know EO's aren't durable after the pres leaves office, but if he felt so strongly over the issue, he could of cancelled them himself with the stroke of a pen. It would of gone over as a widely popular move with the overwhelming majority of Americans. What new president would ever override such a move? Political capital is being sought.

The FTC appears to be in full support of this, and actually was considering this during Obama's term. Furthermore, there's a proposal in Congress aptly named the Workforce Mobility Act, which may seal the deal. In terms of political capital, I'm not sure there's enough of it from the corporates to prevent this from happening.