biggest fears about the future of the profession...

Discussion in 'Dental' started by gatorfan99, Apr 1, 2004.

  1. gatorfan99

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    My biggest fear is the possibility that the so-called "corporate dentisty" might hope in the bandwagon of cheap foreign labor and start hiring huge number of foreign trained dentists to work in America for nothing..

    I hope they never get powerful to persuade the government to issue things like special visas, like the H1-B that brings huge numbers of Indian software engineers to Silicon valley (well, used to.. until silican valley moved to Bangalore :mad: ).

    By the way, here in Orlando, there's a dentist on pretty much every plaza.. Those baby boomers better start retiring!



    gatorfan.
     
  2. sxr71

    sxr71 Senior Member
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    In order to practice in the US you need a degree from a US school. No worries here.
     
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  3. Zurich5

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    I don?t see dentistry moving to outsourcing, that?s for sure. I think no matter how big corporate dentistry gets, there will always be a market for private practices and quality dentistry. Capitation, now there?s a problem.
     
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  4. busupshot83

    busupshot83 S.D.N. Vet
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    Even so, these corporations would also have to pay for them to get an advanced standing qualification degree before they could practice. That would give you a good 2 year start over them.
     
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  5. grettlin2

    grettlin2 Senior Member
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    some foreign dental and medical schools are VERY easy to get in as long as you can pay the tuitions on time. These students do not have to compete the acceptances like us or those who are now fighting the doors. The tuition in foreign dental schools are almost cheaper than any school in US. If ADA allows them to practice here without entering Advanced Program, they would earn the most money by investing just little on their education.

    If it happens, it makes us like idions that we burn more enery on studying, volunteer work, DAT, LoR, hard time in dental schools, and getting a lot of debts.
     
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  6. aphistis

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    Fortunately, that's a pretty prohibitive "if" as long as the ADA continues receiving the support it has always enjoyed.
     
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  7. Zurich5

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    Bill,

    What's your stand on capitation? Just curious.

    Ryan
     
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  8. aileen

    aileen Senior Member
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    Zurich, may I say something about capitation? I'll wait for your OK.
     
  9. aphistis

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    I think it's an attractive trap, but a damaging trap both financially and from level of care perspective. My understanding is that the HMO pays you for a fixed fraction of their patients to come in and be treated. So, instead of trying to get patients so you can do more work to earn more income and help more people, you're hoping people DON'T come in so they eat away at your ration from the insurance company, and when they do, the temptation will be there to do the minimum necessary to get the job done in order to save money (because the capitation fees generally aren't anywhere near your FFS fee for the same work).

    In a nutshell, it's the same trap medicine fell into, and look where it's gotten them.
     
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  10. PERFECT3435

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    very well said Bill.


    as far as the future goes, i wouldn't be concerned about the corporations trying to take over. what does worry me is the amount of dentists that graduate every year in U.S. if you live in los angeles, it would seem to you as though there are more dentists than patients. i mean there is a dental office in every other block and more and more are opening up. i don't know how they'll continue if the trend stays the same.

    i hope this will not be the case in IN.
     
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  11. aphistis

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    Nope. California is a regional anomaly. Nationwide, dentists are retiring somewhere between 1.5x and 2 times faster than schools are turning out new graduates. Right now is a great time to become a dentist overall.
     
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  12. JTLUK001

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    First of all Canadian Schools are on par with American Dental Schools. So if you read most State Boards of Dentistry Websites they will say "must be graduates of an accredited program from the US or Canada or completed a qualifying program or whatever."

    Second. Organized dentistry is great for protecting our monopoly, but I feel that we should do so based on competency rather than where one graduated from. I'd have no problem working with a graduate from a foreign school or have them work on me as long as they were competent. I have a feeling that many foreign trained dentists are more competent than some dentists trained here in the US or Canada.

    Thirdly. It is great if in the future students can have the option of leaving either the US or Canada for a good dental education. Although competition for admittance would not be as great, it would give those students who really want to be dentists an alternative. I don't think any one of us who is accepted to a stateside school is any better than any of the students who choose to go for a foreign education. God knows some individuals just interview better or have the right connections.
     
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  13. JTLUK001

    JTLUK001 Member
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    Fourthly. So what if organized dentistry brings in cheaper labour. Will it make me charge any less for my work or cheapen my work? Probably not. We all have a clientele we want to cater to.

    Fifthly. How many dentists are poor? I have been hearing about HMOs, DMOs, and capitation plans and how bad they are, but when I walk off the stage this spring with my diploma (and when you guys do too you) you soon realize these plans will bring in patients into your new practices that otherwise would be empty. Of course you can participate less in these lesser paying plans as your practice matures.

    Sixth and final rant. Once I got into dental school I seem to notice more dental offices around....and boy there are so many dentists graduating too. Just think the more dentists graduating will mean more possible buyers for your successful practice! According to Sullivan Schein the success rate for a new practice is 99.6%!
     
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  14. Dr.SpongeBobDDS

    Dr.SpongeBobDDS Senior Member
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    Except in CA which now allows mexican grads to work in "underserved" areas of CA. Underserved?! Is there a single square mile of CA that doesn't have 2 or 3 dentists fighting tooth and nail for the opportunity to sign their souls away to the DMOs? Granted, there are limitations on how long and where the Mexican dentists can practice, but you can be sure this is only a stepping stone.
     
  15. Dr.SpongeBobDDS

    Dr.SpongeBobDDS Senior Member
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    BTW, the latest ADA newsletter had a big spiel about how great this was going to be for the state of California. So much for organized dentistry saving the profession, huh?
     
  16. groundhog

    groundhog 1K Member
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    The California legislature has a sizeable proportion of Hispanic members who voiced concern about the lack of Hispanic speaking physicians and dentists who are available to serve the poorer Hispanic communities. So, a trial solution to the perceived problem was enacted into a sunset law which allows 30 Mexican physicians and dentsits to enter California for the purpose of providing health care services for a 3 year period. I believe the dentists will have to work under the supervision of licensed US dentists or in public health clinics which serve Hispanic communities.

    This issue is just another aspect of coming to terms with the global economy in a multicultural democracy. In order to not be left behind, one has to be proactive rather than reactive. Maybe becomming fluent in a foreign language is part of the solution. Advances in technology might be another. The poor are an untapped market. Devising economical methods to serve that market is in everyone's best long term interest.
     
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  17. PERFECT3435

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    no offense to anyone, but it really troubles me that we have to have spanish speaking workers in almost all industries in CA.

    i don't get it. we live in America. English is the language that should be spoken and yet we get pissed off people in our dental office on daily basis because we don't have anyone to speak spanish in our office.


    why do we have to have for english press 1 and for spanish press 2?


    no throwing fire balls this please. i am just voicing my opinion about why i have to speak spanish inorder to be perceived competitve if i am looking for a jon in CA.
     
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  18. grettlin2

    grettlin2 Senior Member
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    I believe "Care" means to serve the people in their most comfortable and best interest to them. So, "language" is the problem in our side not the patient's side. Although here is US and English is definitely the language, the fact is that more and more people are moving around in the world. Many elderly people they can't speak English but they dream to live here. We have to overcome that. How?
    For the two dentists I was sshadowing. They hire the dental hygenists who speak Spanish and other language with English as well. It works well! I think I will do it to provide the Win-Win solution. If you can make language not an issue, potentionally, you will have more and more patients.;)
     
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  19. PERFECT3435

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    grettlin,


    i don't think yo ufully understood what i was trying to point out.
    what i wanna know is why do we have to have for Spanish press 2?


    what you are saying isn't wrong but in that case we should have:
    for Farsi press 3
    for chinese press 4
    for russian press 5
    for Hendonesian press 99



    hope you see what i mean. my other argument is that i feel that i have to learn Spanisg in CA inorder to make as much money as others make. why? because businesses hire spanish speaking people over me. why? because people aren't learning the language that they are supposed to even though they may have lived here for ages.


    again, hope noone sees my remarks as something rcist. i am just trying to be logical here.
     
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  20. no2thdk999

    no2thdk999 Senior Member
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    This is the best thing I have heard in weeks!!


    JMHO
    Rob
     
  21. sxr71

    sxr71 Senior Member
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    I am the last person who wants to learn another language, but with all due respect they don't have to learn English. The US does not have an official language. If Spanish speaking people are able to get along in the US without learning English it is because we allowed that to happen. You better believe that we didn't do it to help them out so much as benefit from their presence in the US. Companies have Spanish speaking customer service to earn their business and people learned Spanish to conduct business with Spanish speaking people.

    As future medical practitioners we can't judge our patients based on what language they are able to speak. If we can't speak Spanish they will find someone who can, since many people are willing to learn Spanish to earn their business. I too will learn Spanish in order to earn their business, because it is a matter of basic survival in areas where there is a significant Spanish speaking population. You are welcome to not learn Spanish, but you can't complain that Spanish speaking people will not come to see you. It is your choice and nobody is twisting your arm either way. I don't mean to sound so harsh, but this is the economic reality that we face.

    Regarding your argument that we will be forced to learn 5 or 6 languages; I don't think so. There needs to be a certain critical mass before businesses and people start catering to other languages. They are certain small geographic areas where other languages are catered to. For example, Tufts is in Chinatown in Boston. Tufts medical center has signs in Chinese and I'll bet they have people who speak Chinese at Tufts. You will find medical centers in different areas that cater to people who speak Hebrew, Arabic, Persian and a few other languages. In fact it is the medical profession that has to cater to the languages spoken in the immediate vicinity first, because it is our duty to care for these people in the best way we can. However, since people who speak these languages represent minute populations, I don't think other businesses and people will allow them to thrive without learning English. So eventually they will learn English, but even still medical/dental care is best provided in a person's native language. Someone in our profession will always be there who speaks one of these languages and will be willing to care for these populations however small they may be. I will not learn Farsi, because I don't think it will improve my business very much, and there will always be someone who natively speaks Farsi to take care of them. Right now Spanish is so widely spoken that you could lose quite a bit of business, and lose the ability to take care of quite a few people.

    Again, I don't want to learn another language, but I know that I need to.
     
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  22. ehop24

    ehop24 Senior Member
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    like it or not, i'd get used to it. matter of fact, it would behoove all of us to become fluent "en el espanol."

    the new statistics anticipate that hispanics will be the #1 US minority group in about 10 years.

    and at current pace....they will be the majority in the US by around 2040. Can't beat em...join.

    Dial 1 for spanish, 2 for english.
     
  23. PERFECT3435

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    tooooootally agree with you there. thats exactly what i am arguing. we allowed that and are still doing it.



    what i wanna know is why can't foreigners learn English? i have had tons of people come in to the dental office where i work and get pissed off over the fact that there is noone who speak spanish in our office.
    now i know that some of these folks have lived in the US for a while and yet refuse to learn or put the efforts to learn english.
    why why why?

    if i have to have spanish speaking personal in my office in order to be successful then be it. i'd hire someone, but i refuse to be forced to learning a language that is spoken in some other country.



    as for EHOP,

    aren't they already the number 1 minority group in the US?i won't even touch the second line.
     
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  24. DaktarSaheb

    DaktarSaheb Junior Member
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    Hey Perfect I am with you on this. i think what you are saying is true in the majority. when I came to this country 5 years ago I didn't speak english at all. I now speak quite good. Not the best but trying my best. I was working about 3.5 years ago at mcdonalds and we had 3 guys come from Mexico and very young (18-22) and capable of learning english but they never tried because manager spoke spanish and where he had legal problems people spoke spanish and they thought they don't need to speak english or learn it. It is surprising that they don't even try to learn it. i mean come on atleast try and see if you can get it. I am not saying to do it fluently in few years but if you living here for 10 year atleast learn how to get aroung your language problrms. When i become I will probably hire some one in my staff for this language help to get business but i refuse to learn spanish just for them. Also I agree that If I move to Mexico I will learn spanish to live there.
     
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  25. cali1

    cali1 Junior Member
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    In regards to the number one minority, I believe Latinos recently became number one, according to the lastest census, at about 39 million, if I remember correctly. That includes all latinos, so mexicans are not number one by themselves yet. I think that will be in ten years or so.
    Living in California, I knew that speaking spanish would be important. That's why I took four years of it in high school, but i'm far from fluent in it.
     
  26. ehop24

    ehop24 Senior Member
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    You guys are probably right about the Census data. As of the 2000 Census, 12.9% of the country was black/african american, and 12.4% was hispanic/latino. I would guess that by 2004 the latino number was significantly higher.
     
  27. gatorfan99

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    Do I sense a certain xenophobic feeling coming from fellow dentists here?

    Living in Florida means that Spanish is the "numero" 2 language also and, frankly, I think its great! Diversity is what makes America the greatest country in the world!

    Besides, learning Spanish allows you to tap into a hug market of beautiful single girls ;) <<Take it from me, a white boy in "La Florida".

    Guys, we're too smart to be angry xenophobs.

    Btw, California and Florida (and a few other SW states) have resident Hispanic populations that have been there WAY before English-speakers got there.

    Viva el espanol. :)

    Peace,
    Gatorfan.
     
  28. busupshot83

    busupshot83 S.D.N. Vet
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    i teach english to refugees
     
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  29. grettlin2

    grettlin2 Senior Member
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    Perfect, I understand what you mean. Just want to share how my dentists solves this problem. As you know, in CA especially in LA, there are about 50% of people have multiple backgrounds. If we want to practice here, I guess we have to face it anyway.
     
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  30. krull

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    Well your opinion deserves to be thrown fire at. What are you saying; keep people who come here to work from Mexico out? These poor people do all the jobs you and I don't want to do: mowing our lawns, working as bus boys at restaurants, cleaning our toilets, impregnating Modonna:rolleyes:

    You throw fire at them because they don't have the time to learn the English language? Have you seen how hard some of these poor people work for their measily salaries?

    And to add light to why you 'should' learn to speak Spanish as a dentist: Because whether you like it or not we are currently living under an open immigration policy. Now until this changes you will continually see an influx of immigrants (especially those from Mexico) come into this country. You will be better served knowing the Spanish language.

    :thumbup:
     
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  31. booshwa

    booshwa Senior Member
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    Here in LA, I believe that there is no majority group anymore. About half the patients I've seen do not speak English, or speak it on a very limited basis.

    As far as to why some of these people do not learn English, I think it comes from the fact that they do not have to. Everything here is bilingual. Especially depending on the region of town. Where I live, almost everything is in English. However, where I go to school, everything is in Spanish. If all of the stores they need to shop at are in Spanish, their friends and family speak Spanish, their media is in Spanish, isn't it a little unfair to expect them to learn English so that they can tell me they are having pain in #7?

    So, do I want to learn Spanish? Not particularly- I mean I still had to take classes in English when I got into undergrad. But, I definetely feel the need to learn Spanish for me to survive. Especially if as a practioner, I have to rely on somebody to translate for me. That takes time, possibly an extra employee, and ultimately it is fiscally ideal to learn the language.
     
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  32. PERFECT3435

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    exactly what i am saying. they don't have to because we (society) have made is easy for them by having press 1 for eng and press 2 for spanish.


    its fine to speak your own language and follow your culture and all. what is bothering me is when people come to the office and get pissed off because we don't have anyone speaking spanish there.


    Hello? anyone there? knock knock. we are in America.



    now as for Krull, i think you have me mistaken. this whole argument was about people not learning english. and yes i have seen people work hard including myself and parents (wash dishes, work for other people, do security job work, work 10 hrs a day etc etc). that has absolutely nothing to do with why i wouldn't learn english. noone said the foreigners in this country don't work hard.
     
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  33. sxr71

    sxr71 Senior Member
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    ^^^ Why do you keep quoting people out of context and then agree with an out of context statement? Read the rest of that paragraph and see if what he or she is saying is "exactly what you're saying."
     
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  34. Mo007

    Mo007 Gifted Hands
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    Oh yeah? :laugh:
     
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  35. PERFECT3435

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    sxr71,

    why?

    because:

    1. i can.:laugh:
    2. i only agree with that part of their statment.
     
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  36. busupshot83

    busupshot83 S.D.N. Vet
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    oh yeah. i find it very rewarding. we are expecting over 200 new refugees into the Tampa Bay-area this year.
     
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  37. sxr71

    sxr71 Senior Member
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    What's the point of quoting other people out of context? So you can appear to be agreeing with them when you really are not? If you haven't figured out why I brought this up, you also quoted me out of context. Read the sentence immediately following the one you quoted from my post and you'll quickly see that I don't agree with you on this subject - at all.

    It's fine to disagree, but at least own up to it.
     
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  38. krull

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    Don't bother arguing with this guy sxr. He's a douche and a half.
     
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  39. Thaxil

    Thaxil Senior Member
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    I love Spanish; it is a much easier language then English. I am a native So. Ca, and I still have troubles with English. I took two years of Spanish, and liked the fact that one can spell a Spanish word based on it how it sounds. However, I regretful failed to really learn it. I think the reason why was because I did not surround myself with it and try hard enough. The best why to learn a language is to be force to use it. Mexicans are not forced to us English where I live in San Bernardino; it is only 200 mile from the border. Many of the store, dental offices, and other services have Spanish speaker. Some times, I feel like the immigrant. I do not think they should be force or expected to learn English just like we are not force or expected to learn Spanish. As some mention before, the US does not have an official language. I do not think we should have an official language. The language someone speaks is a major part of his or her culture. Diversity is great. I can not think of any thing worst then a nation of Hamburger eating English speakers.
     
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  40. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    You're becoming as popular with SDN's high society as I am, Ahmad. ;)

    Edit: That's what I get for trying to be cosmopolitan.
     
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  41. sxr71

    sxr71 Senior Member
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    Haute couture as defined by the Cambridge Dictionary of American English: (the business of making) expensive clothes of original design and high quality.
     
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  42. PERFECT3435

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    its all good Bill. i still get a lot of love from sdn. no need to worry about people with 20 posts and telling people i am fraud:D

    keep going krull. i find it amusing.:laugh:
     
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  43. krull

    krull Membership Revoked
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    You know, my pappy always told me that if it smells like a fob, and it talks like a fob, it's probably perfect3435 reborn :laugh:
     
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  44. PERFECT3435

    7+ Year Member

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    Krull,

    can i ask:

    how old you are?
    have you always been this immature?
    and last, shouldn't you be really busy in the pharmacy forum as oopse to this one? hmmmm...

    your pappy and mommy must be proud of you.;)
     
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  45. krull

    krull Membership Revoked
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  46. PERFECT3435

    7+ Year Member

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    ooops i said pharmacy when i meant MD, mcat discussion, the lounge (thats where you really belong), and the everyone forums.


    i really don't think there is room for you in the dental forum till you have graduated high school my friend.
     
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  47. krull

    krull Membership Revoked
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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Classic idiot
     
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  48. PERFECT3435

    7+ Year Member

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    congrats ******,

    you have earned a spot on my iggy list:thumbup:
     
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  49. krull

    krull Membership Revoked
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    :clap: :clap: touche:laugh:
     
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  50. busupshot83

    busupshot83 S.D.N. Vet
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    What's up with the all battles going down on SDN? Stop taking things so serious: go smoke some weed.
     
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