Blacks really are URM

Discussion in 'Underrepresented in Healthcare' started by umean2tellme, May 25, 2008.

  1. umean2tellme

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    I was looking at the 2008 MSAR and I had never seen the actual statistics for people accepted to medical school based on ethnicity. I never realize how URM blacks really are. There are schools that accepted 100+ students and no black people whatsoever. I know there are blacks in other states and it's not like no African Americans applied to that school. USUHS accepted like 2. Only the three black colleges and Ohio State accepted more than 20 I think. Is it even worth applying to a school that seems to not accept URM's if I'm not even in state there?
     
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  3. da me ka don

    da me ka don Not in your P.I.'s lab!

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    I think medical schools tend to take people who are qualified for medical school, black or not. - "all rounded candidates" so it's not all about the numbers. However, it seems that black students tend to aggregate towards the cities in my own opinion, maybe cos they are more comfortable there etc etc. So even if a school in a largely rural area interviewed a number of black candidates and accepted say 5 of them, but those 5 also got into other schools in cities, or in places where there is a higher population of other black folks, I think the students tend to gravitate towards such schools rather than stay in the rural area school. Except they are from the area.
    States that are not so friendly to OOS will not be also friendly to you URM or not. However, other schools will accept you, as an OOS because they generally accept a percentage of their class out of state.
     
  4. LovelyMD

    Moderator Emeritus

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    Keep in mind that the MSAR reports the number of students that matriculated, not the number that were accepted. It is very possible that these schools did admit black students, but those students decide to attend other schools. When considering schools where you are considered OOS, it is important to find out what percentage of the class is OOS, and what percentage of OOS applicants are admitted.
     
  5. DoctaJay

    DoctaJay bone breaker
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    It is also a never ending cycle too. Let's say that you get an interview at the University of Kansas SOM. You go out there, and you realize that you have not seen one black person during your whole interview; when you get accepted there, you will be less likely to matriculate there. Then the next year when another black person interviews there, they see the same thing, and the cycle continues.
     
  6. Livingapparatus

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    Would you really not take an offer from a school because you saw no one else of your heritage? If I was accepted to a school and saw no hispanics but I thought this would be the best school for me I would certaintly not decline.
     
  7. scarletgirl777

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    If it was the only school you got into, of course you would go. But if you have several schools to choose from, and one of them is racially homogenous with a racially homegenous population and you are not part of that homogeneity, and the rest are diverse with diverse patient populations...well, that's minus one for the homogenous school. It's a big plus for me if the school's patient population is diverse, and a diverse class would be nice too.
     
  8. Livingapparatus

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    well if that would make you a happier med student than :thumbup:

    but I dont think if this would deter my decision one way or another Personally I dont really notice how many people of each race are in the class, I care which school is going to prepare me best to be a doctor
     
  9. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    ADCOM's and schools are doing their part to let in URM's making exceptions on grades and MCAT scores, etc, so that they can have URM doctors serving undeserved areas. I think there just needs to be more support for these types of careers coming from within the URM communities.
     
  10. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    I'm with you here. I personally don't even notice a persons "color" until there are clear cultural differences.

    E.g. when I watch Thomas Sowell, Colin Powell, Barack Obama, etc they portray an image that is consistent with the culture I was immersed in my entire life, and I don't even notice their "color". Its actually very strange. When I watch Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton, or hear someone talking in thick ebonics I then become aware.

    Having said that, I'd feel very uncomfortable going to a school that was hugely predominant in a culture I wasn't familiar with, i.e. everyone spoke in ebonics and their form of "normal communication" is drastically different from my own. If the entire school was full of Thomas Sowell's, Colin Powells, etc, I'd never even notice their color.

    I think that's generally how most people feel. Culture is the issue, not color.
     
  11. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    After being the only person of African decent in classes of 500+ students, I was done. If you haven't lived through it, it may be hard to fully understand. I'm glad we have black, African, and Caribbean associations on campus for support.

    I did note the number of "black" people in the class according to the MSAR, and also the location. My top 3 choices were the HBCUs. My other top choices were schools in large cities. I was not trying to go to a school where I would be the only person of my race or ethnicity... living in a town where I am the ethnic diversity.

    I did study abroad back home in Barbados and it was a wonderful experience. I can't explain what it's like NOT to have to think about my race. I wasn't a "black student". I was just Alyssa.

    Lys
     
  12. PunkmedGirl

    PunkmedGirl Freshman Member

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    I completely agree with you on this. Maybe its just my personality and who I am but if I were the only black woman in my future med school class, I know it would not bother me in the least. I am only applying to one of the three HBCUs and it has nothing to do with race but everything to do with its reputation. I just want to go where I know I will be happy and feel comfortable within my own surroundings. Growing up in the south, I know what its like to be a URM, I am just ready to be a woman that's not defined by my race but definitely by my character (Martin Luther King was SOOO right).
     
  13. DrPavoreal

    DrPavoreal Full of Optimism

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    Nice to know that non-threatening Negroes such as Thomas Sowell make you feel good about yourself. :thumbup: I hope you never have to administer care to one of those ebonic-laden speakers as a physician. :eek: It would be very inconvenient for you to step outside your comfort zone like URMs have to do on a daily basis. :(

    How do you feel about Spanish accents though? I bet those are "exotic". I bet you think Latina women are soooooooooo hot, right? Or is it Asians that are in style this year?

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    Just the response I was expecting to eventually receive by somebody too dense to see past his own hypocrisy. The truth, DrPavoreal, is that its entirely normal for people to be uncomfortable if they're immersed in a culture that they're not familiar with. And on that note, I hope you realize that your argument would apply to Miss Alyssa AND yourself! You, yourself, claim that URM's step outside their comfort zone on a "daily basis", so by your own standards I hope you never have to treat any white people :rolleyes:

    And, what is a non-threatening negro? Is that code-speak for "I'm an angry person who thinks the world is racist and out to get me?" Is that code-speak for "any black person who speaks the predominant form of english and presents him/herself in a fashion that's consistent with the dominant culture is an 'uncle tom'"? I'm infinitely offended every time I hear a successful minority being put down by "his people" because he has adopted the predominant *gasp* white/european *gasp* culture. Not only is it offensive to the person being attacked (like the "non-threatening negro Thomas Sowell"), its very offensive to those of us who are part of the dominant culture b/c that is evidence that you reject us and our culture and have some resentment toward it and us when the huge majority of the people in the dominant culture want nothing more than the best for URM's, which is strongly supported by the fact that the dominant culture has supported endless programs at the private and governmental institution level to assist URMs--assistance that is NOT available to non-URM's of similar socioeconomic status!

    You're absolutely ridiculous.

    I hang out with a pretty diverse crowd, I'm marrying outside of my own race, and I spend quite a bit of time volunteering in an ER where the majority of people are not part of the culture I'm most comfortable with. I treat every individual as an individual, and everybody gets the respect they deserve, and I reciprocate the kindness and respect I get from others. I don't need to qualify myself as a non-racist b/c you're hypersensitive. I can't help but remember being in school and seeing someone get pelted with a school book b/c the kid said Arnold Schwarzenegger's name and some hypersensitive A-hole didn't bother to ask questions about what he "thought" he heard and just chucked a book. Hypersensitivity like that is sure to make your beliefs a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    And, no, actually I really don't find the latin accent "exotic" or sexy in any way, really. Nobody is in "style", unless your an avid MTV-aholic, then its URM's who are in style.

    One last point, "URM's" dont step outside their comfort zone on a daily basis. I know plenttttttyyyyyyyy of URMs who feel absolutely 100% comfortable in the dominant culture because that's the culture their families have adopted, and they've never felt this insecurity you exhibit. My fiancee, however, is Vietnamese, and just as happenstance about half of our closest friends are URM's, whom, ironically, have expressed that the only discrimination they remember encountering as they grew up was from people of their own race/color because they were "uncle toms, twinkies, and coconuts" *sigh*.

    Take your insecurities elsewhere. I'm so absolutely sick of being accused of some sort of racism for saying something that's even the slightest bit "politically incorrect". What I said was totally harmless, but your sensitive and negative attitude is, IMHO, at a minimum, self destructive.
     
  15. DrPavoreal

    DrPavoreal Full of Optimism

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    You are an idiot, good sir. :)

    You know absolutely nothing about me (my background, my socioeconomic status, my experiences with various cultures, etc.). I feel 100% comfortable around any culture (regardless if they speak incorrect or correct English). I don't speak Ebonics, but I understand it just like I understand the chopped up English of my friend who's from Hong Kong.

    And I've often been told that I'm one of the "good ones like Oprah Winfrey" by people just like you because I have a very non-threatening/non-militant/super-feminine air. :laugh: Your attitude reeks of arrogance and disdain towards people you regard as "inferior" --> those who do not adopt your European culture.

    The point that I was trying to make is that URMs do not have the LUXURY to have a comfort zone like you do. I've grown up being the only person of color in AP classes, having my accomplishments questioned, etc. I have adopted the practices of both cultures, but you expect minorities to assimilate to the "dominant" White culture which is sooooo idiotic.

    So what if your "friends" :rolleyes: have been called an Uncle Tom? I've been called one before (probably many others on this sub-forum have as well). HOWEVER, I realize the roots of those accusations...the pain that the person is really trying to convey...and I don't look down on my people for accusing me as such nor do I run towards the arms of the Great White Hope to save me from mean colored people. :(

    And LOL @ your girlfriend being Vietnamese. I knew by the way you were replying that your girlfriend would either be Latina or Asian. :laugh: I wonder if she has an accent. :rolleyes:

    And LOL @ the "some of my best friends are minorities" type response.

    Note: I'm a girl so don't refer to me as "him". :cool:

    P.S. Nice muscles. ;):smuggrin:
     
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  17. flaahless

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    Yo G, slow down a bit right now. I'm not going to burn you out in the same way that DP did, but I think you should examine your views on language and communication. The whole ebonics thing you were talking was a little sketch and I think that's where DP took offense because I raised an eyebrow too. I'm glad that you see cultures rather than skin types, but I think that being prejudiced to certain forms of speech can be just as bad. Especially when the paradigm for language professionalism is caucasian, and "ebonics" is often on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

    The whole uncle tom thing is kinda weird. Some individuals grew up around people that speak that way ie Colin Powell and OBama, and others didn't. Some assimilated, some sold out, and some refused to change. The problem arose when you said that you feel most comfortable around urms speak in way emulates white america. That comment definitely has racial overtones. I say "cuz" alot and I often violate the rules of plurality and singularity. Ie: "Them kicks is tight Cuz!" According to your post, you'd be uncomfortable around me? Why? I shouldn't have to speak like Colin Powell to make you comfortable. That violates that idea of reciprocity and respect that you spoke of.

    Lastly, chill on the whole "the dominant culture only wants to help urms thus we've given them all of these great programs and preferential treatment that isn't available to caucasians!" argument. That can get real heated so I won't even go there.
     
  18. flaahless

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    Yo man, try to keep things civil.
     
  19. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    You outright said that you are uncomfortable in every day life as a URM. You need to makeup your mind.

    But, you are right. I know nothing of your personal background or your socioeconomic status but your previous post illuminated possible experiences with other cultures and your "comfort level" around them.

    And, I never said I couldn't understand people speaking ebonics, where did that implication come from?

    While I'd agree that whoever said that to you chose their words very poorly, compare that to being called an evil oppressing racist whom is responsible for all of the bad in the world. Not comparable. Don't feel sorry for yourself, everybody has bad experiences and while yours was very odd and likely upsetting because it exposes an underlying culture clash, its hardly mean-spirited or traumatizing. I get to sit through classes where I am essentially taught that I am part of plague: "the white plague."

    Just because you're insecure doesn't mean that I'm "really" arrogant. You're projecting the world around you the way you want to see it, and you're eating yourself up over it. I pity your feelings than anything. And, I don't think people who don't adopt the dominant US culture are inferior, that's ridiculous. Quit putting words in my mouth.

    I do, however, think that considering there IS a culture that is dominant in the world of the white collar worker it is a very poor choice not to integrate / learn how to effectively associate with people of that culture. Its not racist for an employer not to want to hire somebody if there is a substantial difference in communication between this prospective worker and those to whom said worker will be communicating. E.g. people get pissed when they call HP Computer Support and get someone from India, so there has been a recent trend where companies are NOT doing this anymore despite the extra costs incurred. Its not b/c anybody is racist against Indians.

    Yes you do. If you didn't have a luxury of a comfort zone I wouldn't ever be in a situation where I'm the racial and cultural minority. And, being from Southern California that happens to me quite frequently. In addition, you previously admitted to having a "comfort zone" when you said you leave that comfort zone. YOU personally may not have a comfort zone because I get the impression that you identify yourself as more connected to people of your own race, but that doesn't seem to be where society designates you. I'm no psychologist, but that's what I've gotten out of this whole conversation.

    Well, unfortunately URMs are given leeway and benefits where others aren't, and some people are resentful. Until there are no double standards there will always be resent, and its a necessary evil right now. There aren't enough URM physicians, teachers, etc and non-URM physicians, teachers, etc are very unlikely to go practice in heavily URM areas for a number of reasons, so we need these policies.

    This is a problem that can only be fixed from within the community. The amount of money thrown at URM school districts with lower performance is mind-boggling, and its not helping the situation because many of these URM "cultures" do not seem to value education like some of the, for example, ORM minorities do.

    If I didn't have a disturbingly good understanding of how "passion" can make an intelligent person make non-sensical arguments, I'd be tempted to question respond to your first comment of your post by insulting your intelligence. But, in all honesty you communicate yourself well, and I'm sure you're a smart woman, so I'm sorry if you've been unjustly accused of having been "given" things you earned fair and square, and I can understand your frustration.

    The way you keep quoting and referring to "dominant" culture, it appears you're obviously misinterpreting what it means. Dominant means prevailing, not that its "superior" as you've so often implied I was saying. And I never said I "expect" minorities to adopt the dominant culture; I just said it would be a good idea considering if there is a "majority" that's where the "majority" of the jobs/interactions will be! And, adopting a culture doesn't mean that you have to let go of another. I know plenty of people who have very strong ethnic cultures and are very in tune with the dominant US culture, as you say you have.

    I addressed the issue of assimilation above.

    Do you? Have you ever even considered that what was said was mean spirited, not a painful expression, and that the person calling you an uncle tom likely had no idea what the roots of the accusation are? I would be willing to bet 100:1 that most people throwing those ignorant words around have no idea ,and that you're, again, creating a world that doesn't exist.

    I knew you'd say this due to your lame, pointless remark in your last post. Very pointless, and very pathetic. I don't know how that even came up in the first place.
    Well, due to hypersensitive people like yourself it is unfortunate that often us white people have to constantly go out of our way to reassure people that we're not racist for saying something that they don't want to hear.

    Well, my apologies, "her". :D

    And, the muscles are mostly gone at the moment. Too much going on in my life to keep up that kind of eating/training lifestyle.
     
  20. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    First off, thanks, I appreciate your more "mellow" approach :D


    Now, on to the disagreements! :lol:

    I'm not prejudice against ebonics. I simply said that the only time I even notice people are different than me is when we communicate differently, i.e. ebonics vs. standard american english.

    The reason that standard english is the preferred language of professionals is because that's what most professionals speak. Ebonics are not associated with professionalism because ebonics are not used in professional settings. There is no issue there, that's just how things are. Its not racist, its not anything -ist, its how the professional world works.

    Going into someone elses "world" and not communicating in their language, then calling them racist for not liking it is non-sensical, and unfortunately that's what happens all of the time.
    There are no racial overtones, see above.

    And, according to my post if I was in a school of 10,000 people where everyone spoke like that I'd at least start out uncomfortable, yes. I'm sure I'd acclimatize to the situation, but I'd expect there to be communication issues. I'd be immersed in a culture I'm not familiar with. Its not like meeting an individual or a group of individuals. Its totally different. I meet/talk to people all the time who communicate differently than I do and who are of different cultures. Hell, I'm the guy in the grocery store line talking everyones ear off, regardless of who they are and what they look like or how they speak.

    This was absolutely inevitable as soon as she brought up that people were not giving her just credit for her accomplishments. What do you expect? "You white people always question our accomplishments b/c we're black." Then I respond with what? I can't just leave it alone because the implication is that white people make those judgements out of racism, but that's absolutely 100% false! The reason URM's are at the receiving end of that sentiment is NOT racism, its due to differences in standards and treatment and the resentment associated with those standards.
     
  21. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    Miss Alyssa spent 12 years in predominantly white schools and then went on to go to a predominantly white/Asian university for 4 more years. She also spent a summer living in a rural French town of 30,000. She was was one of 15 non-white people in the town.

    I have always been immersed in cultures that are not my own, sometimes languages that are not my own, and with people that do not fully understand my lived experience.

    You can't say that is stepping out of my comfort zone because save for 4 months in Barbados, it's the only zone I've known:sleep:

    Lys
     
  22. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    Well you sure sounded uncomfortable in your post, so forgive me if I misinterpreted. :)

     
  23. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    Which "many" of these URM cultures are you talking about?
    Lys


     
  24. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    Oh, I'm fully aware that African's who immigrate to the US perform extraordinarily. But, the culture of those immigrating is absolutely entirely different from the "african American's" in the US. You cannot lump the two.

    I was specifically referring to URM's, the implication meaning that they're born American citizens. The link you provided which outlines the superb accomplishments of African immigrants is further evidence for my assertion that there is a cultural root to the education issue among URM's of American origin, not evidence against it.

    Your source is also misconstruing the evidence they're presenting. They're talking about Asian Americans as a model minority and comparing them to African immigrants, not African Americans. I find that little piece of "journalism" to be highly intellectually dishonest.
     
  25. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    Maybe I misinterpreted you. It seemed like you were saying I should "step out of my comfort zone". Comfort zone being a place where I am not immersed in a culture different to my own, by your definition. I have never lived in that zone.

    Lys
     
  26. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that the URM designation is reserved for people born in America. Although the article also talked about the success of children of African and Caribbean immigrants... who would then be born American citizens. But you did say "many URM cultures", you should have just said African Americans if that's who you were talking about. I was not lumping, I was trying to un-lump.

    Lys
     
  27. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    No, no, no... I wasn't saying that at all. :)

    I was saying that when you were in an all white school you were outside of your comfort zone, and used you as an example b/c I said I'd be uncomfortable in an all black school where everyone communicated in ebonics because I'd be immersed in a culture I'm not familiar with. I only brought you up b/c I got blasted for that, and they seemed to think it was okay for a URM like yourself to feel uncomfortable, but not for me, which is nonsensical IMHO.
     
  28. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    Well, I can't just say African American's b/c it includes Native Americans and many Latin Americans, etc, etc.

    When I was using the term URM I was using it under the impression that it referred to native minorities, not immigrants.
     
  29. flaahless

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    Yo G, I never mentioned the professional setting. I was referring to colloquial speech altogether and its influence on the concept of professionalism. There are still major prejudices associated with "ebonics" or any form of colloquial speech used predominantly by people of color. And, there are plenty of racial overtones given the simple fact that culture and language are inextricably linked. The sheer idea of a "professional language" is racist since professional language itself was created and is perpetuated by white america.

    I'm not going into someone elses world and complaining. My goal is to blend the worlds, rather than having one predominant culture be the paradigm for everyone else.
     
  30. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    It's not dishonest. It speaks of African immigrants as being another model minority. It would be dishonest if it used statistics about the success of African and Caribbean immigrants, and their children but publish info using the broad racial category, "black". It would be dishonest if it used info about African immigrants but attributed it to African Americans, a different ethnic group. The article did neither of these things. It is clear to both you and me that they are comparing African immigrants and Asian Americans, it highlights the achievements of a group which has been over looked, so I don't see dishonesty or intent to mislead.

    Lys
     
  31. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    I'll never agree with you that having a "professional language" is racist; we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)
     
  32. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    That's a reasonable interpretation. I'll reconsider my position. But, I personally took it as them trying to attribute the immigrant success to that of African Americans based off of the quote you provided and I didn't read the whole article, so that may have been the root of the misunderstanding.
     
  33. Miss Alyssa

    Miss Alyssa Member

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    I think URM and ORM are used for all us citizens and permanent residents. Im sure someone will pop in to clarify.

    Lys
     
  34. scarterinscrubs

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    So what are you guys arguing about again?

    I can't really follow, so all I can add is that the whole ebonics thing is not cool. It seems thats why people got offended.
     
  35. flaahless

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    Hahaha, dawg, I'm not saying that professional language is racist, I'm saying that, as of today, May 2008, professional language in the US dominated and perpetuated by white america, and excludes forms of speech that are common to people of color. If professional language was all-inclusive instead of exclusive, then no, it wouldn't be racist.
     
  36. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1

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    But, if you include all different forms of speech, then its no longer standardized :D

    Anyway, I need to get back to the MCAT. This is taking up far too much of my time :)
     
  37. DrPavoreal

    DrPavoreal Full of Optimism

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    Yes, sir. :( (I'm not a man. :mad:)

    I won't participate further in this discussion other than to say that one cannot compare Africans to African Americans due to the selection bias inherent in those populations. When one compares Blacks from the Carribean or Africa, one is often talking about the wealthiest of the wealthiest (who can afford to immigrate here) -- not the millions of poverty-stricken people who make up the majority (same with India, China, etc.). If one was to take a cross-section of people from the same socio-economic stratus, most of these "differences" disappear.

    Maybe I need to change my screen name so I won't be referred to as a boy anymore. :confused:
     
  38. MsJLewis

    MsJLewis Retired Pre-med

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    Hm, I've sat through many of these discussions. I went to an ivy and was born an American citizen while the rest of my family was naturalized immigrants from the Caribbean. I wouldn't necessarily say that its the "wealthiest of the wealthiest" that often immigrate here. In my experiences (in my own family, extended family, and the local Caribbean community) it seemed to me to be the ones that "wanted" it the most that immigrated to America. So whether that means that they take on a bunch of extra jobs in the Carib to save enough money to get to America (or do like my mother did and works as a maid in Puerto Rico for a couple of years), they do whatever it takes to get here. Its the ones that are willing to sacrifice everything (sell their land back home, take up low-end jobs, live in less than stellar conditions) to have the chance to get to America and get a slice of the American dream that actually end up in America and in-turn push their kids (through education) to have a better life and "bring up" their family socioeconomically. Of course this is only my experiences but I've found this to be another dimension to the conversation.

    EDIT: Also Dr. P, I think they keep referring to you as a boy because of your Avatar of Dr. Evil. :)
     
  39. PunkmedGirl

    PunkmedGirl Freshman Member

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  40. BlackDr2b

    BlackDr2b JESUS DID IT, NOT ME!!!

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    Boy, this thread took a funky turn!

    I know for me, I have been the only for a long time and when I say a long time I mean since elementary school and I am ready for a change. My top 3 schools that I would love to attend are the HBCU's. I am just ready to be apart of the majority and not the minority. I know that I will always be a minority but if I am blessed to get the opportunity to go to one of the HBCU's for medical school, I will be apart of the majority. I am just tired of all the stares and the whispers and everything else and I am ready for a change. God bless.
     
  41. da me ka don

    da me ka don Not in your P.I.'s lab!

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    ^^
    As Black Dr2B, said, we both experienced what is it is like to be among the 3% of minorities in a school of 23,000 (Asians included in that minority count). Imagine how many black students were in that school. Especially in science classes. This is the reason why living in Massachusetts and Maryland feel extremely different from one another. In Mass, I was the a minority. In MD, I am just one of very many people who look like me, walking on the street.:D Feels good to be a girl...not the black/African girl.

    And to second MSJLewis, Africans/other minorities who migrate here are not the wealthiest. They just work the hardest and are willing to take more risks, As a result, their kids really have the pressure put on them to do well in school, cos they watched their parents struggle from paycheck to paycheck to make a living.
     
  42. umean2tellme

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    Who knew the MSAR would cause so much arguing!
     
  43. CJ80

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    I think the important thing to remember is that not all African Americans speak EBONICS! It's unfair to assume so just as it would be unfair to assume all Whites are racists. Many of us speak clear and perfect English and those of us who do, do not make up some assimilated minority. I don't even think it is fair to say that there is a "dominant" culture in the country. So many factors from different cultures blend to create the "American" culture. To lose sight of who we are and what makes us different destroys that culture.

    I, personally, attended predominantly white schools growing up and lived in neighborhoods where I was a part of only 2 minority families. So the argument of "stepping outside of one's comfort zone" is almost an anomaly for Blacks in this country. It is the reality of our world and by definition is what it is like to be a minority! Some of us, like myself, seek/sought out HBCU's just to experience what it is like for once to NOT be the minority, to not be judged by what we wore, how we talked, the way our hair curled, or have to explain our differences to anyone else. It is an experience that doesn't come by often.

    I don't think you had malicious intentions and appreciate that you don't "see color" but bothered that you do when someone speaks ebonics. Ebonics does not equate "Blackness" and to state or think so, I think, is what disturbed some of us. To associate this stereotype is comparable to saying you don't recognize someone's American Indian unless they have feathers in their hair or that you only distinguish Mexican-Americans if they are on the back of a pickup. I'd rather you see my "color" than make a derogatory association with it. That's just my 2 cents...
     
  44. CJ80

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    I think the important thing to remember is that not all African Americans speak EBONICS! It's unfair to assume so just as it would be unfair to assume all Whites are racists. Many of us speak clear and perfect English and those of us who do, do not make up some assimilated minority. I don't even think it is fair to say that there is a "dominant" culture in the country. So many factors from different cultures blend to create the "American" culture. To lose sight of who we are and what makes us different destroys that culture.

    I, personally, attended predominantly white schools growing up and lived in neighborhoods where I was a part of only 2 minority families. So the argument of "stepping outside of one's comfort zone" is almost an anomaly for Blacks in this country. It is the reality of our world and by definition is what it is like to be a minority! Some of us, like myself, seek/sought out HBCU's just to experience what it is like for once to NOT be the minority, to not be judged by what we wore, how we talked, the way our hair curled, or have to explain our differences to anyone else. It is an experience that doesn't come by often.

    I don't think you had malicious intentions and appreciate that you don't "see color" but bothered that you do when someone speaks ebonics. Ebonics does not equate "Blackness" and to state or think so, I think, is what disturbed some of us. To associate this stereotype is comparable to saying you don't recognize someone's American Indian unless they have feathers in their hair or that you only distinguish Mexican-Americans if they are on the back of a pickup. I'd rather you see my "color" than make a derogatory association with it. That's just my 2 cents...
     
  45. scarletgirl777

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    Exactly. Immigrating to another country is a huge feat, especially from a third world country, so anyone who's managed to do it has some above average level of intellect, connections, money, and/or work ethic, and it makes sense that they in turn would be more able to help their kids through the system than the average person who has not reached higher education in America. But they only need above average level in one of these 4 things, so no, not every second-generationer comes from a line of people who are from the "wealthiest of the wealthiest" and given the poverty and turmoil that's in so many African countries, it's silly not to appreciate that these people did overcome some serious obstacles. That's why second generation Americans are overrepresented in higher education...and why the stereotypes about Asianness = smartness are missing an important point.
     
  46. DrPavoreal

    DrPavoreal Full of Optimism

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    *skips into thread and spreads flowers* :love:

    Ahhh. :oops:

    What're the acceptance rates like for URMs at Evil Medical School? :(
     
  47. dr1day

    dr1day Member

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    I'm coming into this discussion late, but I thought I'd add my two cents. I read a paper about a year ago (I've posted the link below) that referenced a statement that I think sums up why some of us were taken aback by some of your statements, tncekm.

    "The notion that differences of skin color, class background, and cultural heritage must be erased for justice and equality to prevail is a brand of popular false consciousness that helps keep racist thinking and action intact"

    You act as if you deserve some sort of medal because you don't "see a person's color" when I don't have a problem with you seeing my color. I'm a black woman. It's pretty hard to miss that. What I have a problem with is you "seeing my color" and immediately (even if it's for a split second) having this perception that I got where I am because of all the handouts given to me or any other negative thought that may go through your mind. See my color and the ways in which I am different from you without thinking of those differences as inferior. I know you say that when you spoke of the "dominant" culture, you didn't mean superior, but that's not how I interpreted your words.

    http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/pjss/2005/813-822.pdf
     
  48. PunkmedGirl

    PunkmedGirl Freshman Member

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    Well said.
     
  49. UVABranch

    UVABranch one of 6000

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    I'm not going to address each thing you said that I disagree with...but please do keep in mind that many of the people here had ancestors who were forced to speak "standard American English," they really didn't have too much of a choice if they wanted to survive. Many of the things associated with the predominant culture were forced on others in our society...so I don't really think you (since I won't categorize your entire culture...which these days is more influenced by mine than anything else these days), have much room to talk about resentment because some choose not to adopt/adapt. That's the beauty of America....people can be themselves and not HAVE to adapt, and should not be looked down upon regardless of what they choose.

    While I would love to believe that most of the majority wants the best for the minority...I hardly see the programs in place as evidence of "endless" programs of support. And those who are not URM with a similar SES (one could say) have had historical advantages.

    OK, enough of that back to class.
     
  50. CJ80

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    I recalled a discussion I had in a case-studies course where we were discussing possible solutions to closing the gaps in health disparities. It reminded me of why it is important for those of us that are URM to practice medicine.

    The National Diabetes Education Program (NDEP) conducted a survey of African-American females to assess why they were not physically active. One of the main deterrents was that they did not want to ruin their hair. This may seem like a silly excuse to other race groups but certainly a valid point to African-American women. Most of us do not wash our hair daily so sweating out our 'do's is a major problem if we want to look presentable the rest of the week (lol).

    The NDEP constructed a tip sheet especially for African-Americans with ideas on how to eat healthy and get physically active. Simple things like turning up the music and dancing while doing household chores, taking the stairs to the office rather than the elevator, and parking as far away as possible from the mall may be alternative activities that promote an active lifestyle.

    In addition to finding the sources of these gaps and finding culturally sensitive and relative interventions, the research must be translated into practice. It is not enough for the doctor of an African-American female at high risk of developing diabetes to tell her to simply exercise and then get frustrated when she returns incompliant. He should address the reasons why she is physically inactive, and find alternatives to what she sees as barriers.

    The same can be applied to Mexican-Americans, American Indians, etc. We're all diverse and our cultural differences should not be ignored or criticized, instead we should learn from one another to find the ways that work for us all to be healthy.

    I feel that we as URMs whether African-American, American Indian, or Hispanic, have an understanding of our cultural differences. We can utilize that understanding by helping our population to be at it's healthiest and teach those around us (ORMs). Cultural sensitivity goes a long way!

    Ok... I'm getting off the soap box now. :)

    If interested: http://www.ndep.nih.gov/diabetes/pubs/50Ways_tips.pdf
    http://www.ndep.nih.gov/diabetes/pubs/Power_tips.pdf
     
  51. What up doc

    What up doc FLASH

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    wow...dont really know what to say...but as the son of Nigerian parents who immigrated in the 70s, i would just like to say that it is NOT the wealthiest who immigrate...both my parents were DEAD poor...i mean really, really, like feed the children poor...but my pops happened to score very well on a continent wide exam...yes, continent wide...and got a scholarship to come here and study mining....(sadly, these programs dont exist nemore, god bless naija)...but ye, just felt like i had to correct that...


    and also, tnckem saying that the oprah winfrey comment is not that bad is evidence of his lack of understand of just how powerful such comments are...i grew up being told that i act white my whole life...and not just because of the way i talk/act/dress, but because i performed well in school...this notion, i know for a fact, turned off some of my friends and they subsquently lost interest in school at an early age...
    so these comments are indeed powerful and hurtful and they leave indelible impacts on the psyche of individuals...

    also, despite going to predominantly white schools my entire life, and despite my ability assmilate and acclimate to the "dominant" ie "white" culture...i still feel inherently uncomfortable in these circles...this is because i LOOK different...truth hurts...and not everyone is "blind" to color like you supposedly are...and looking different my "friends" has often been a source of uneasiness...yeah, it sucks having to explain to your roomate why you brush your hair with a "dog brush" or why you have to put lotion on after you get out of the shower...i am not "hypersensitive" so i can take a joke, but dayum...it can get annoying...and sometimes i wish that i didnt have to deal with it...im sure you have never had to explain why you put on sunscreen or have never been teased as kid for putting it on...like it or not, these things mold people into who they are...

    and im not only bashing on you, blk ppl are guilty as well...like i said, im nigerian...i was born in the US tho and unless u think that all africans have big lips and a flat nose, you wouldnt be able to tell im naija till you heard my name...and yes, blk ppl ie non-immigrant blks gave me a hard time about this growing up...and even in college...where ppl like me ie children of africans, outnumber blks, there is still a little, albeit much less than b4, tension between the two groups...indeed, id probably be a little uncomfortable walking in the streets of detroit michigan alone at 3 am in the morning...but thats not bcuz they are speaking ebonics...thas becuz i wuldnt want my black arse to get shot! :laugh:
     
  52. NigerianBull87

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    I feel ya Naija boy. I'm an American born Nigerian male as well and I could not agree more with what ya said.
     

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