BLS projections updated: Pharmacy still the worst-off health profession at 6% (2016-2026)

[PAtoPharm]

The latest job market/growth projections from the BLS have been updated, and the new stats predict that the pharmacy profession will experience 6% job growth from 2016-2026.

Pharmacists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

For the sake of comparing, the physician assistant profession is projected to experience 37% job growth, even in the face of there being well over 200 PA schools (224, to be exact) graduating new PAs every year, with many more planning to open over the next few years.

Physician Assistants : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

NPs/CRNAs/Nurse Midwives have similarly favorable updated projections, despite there being 350 NP programs as well.

Nurse Anesthetists, Nurse Midwives, and Nurse Practitioners : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

So between both NP and PA programs, there is a grand total of nearly 600 programs that pump out graduates into the NP/PA job markets every year (and keep in mind that many job listings are posted that specify consideration of both PA and NP applicants), and yet both professions are STILL projected to experience astounding growth over the next 10 years.

Obviously, this indicates that in healthcare, the demand is for practitioners who can act as "stand-ins" for physicians and receive reimbursement for providing the same assessment/diagnosis/treatment services they provide... NOT for pharmacy-related services.

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[Amicable Angora]

Putting other issues aside and how you could better use your time, I do have to praise you for your persistence. Welcome back to the PAtoPharm show!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

We're all gonna die.

 

[VA77]

Well it went up 3%. I guess that is better than it was. The HRSA report really scares me.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Seeing as PAtoPharm still has yet to start or even be accepted into a program, I guess it's time for more trolling.

Still don't understand why or even why here instead of the other forum since most of us have our high paying jobs already secured.

 

[pharm B]

We're all gonna die.

Caitlyn Doughty has a lot of good videos on this topic.

Good thing she went to mortuary school instead of pharmacy school.

 

[steveysmith54]

sounds like good news, we went from slower than average 3% to average 6 %. If I am a dean, i call this is a victory.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Seeing as PAtoPharm still has yet to start or even be accepted into a program, I guess it's time for more trolling.

Still don't understand why or even why here instead of the other forum since most of us have our high paying jobs already secured.

All I did was post the latest BLS stats for pharmacy and a couple other healthcare professions. Why do you consider any statement that doesn't portray pharmacy in a positive light (either factually, anecdotally, or on the basis of opinion) to be trolling?

I'm honestly kind of surprised that the PA/NP job market has only improved over the last few years, despite the fact that there are nearly 600 programs in existence graduating new practitioners every year. Maybe many of the programs have small class sizes.

 

[awval999]

You do realize "job growth" has nothing to do with the "job market" ie: the number of programs right?

They are two different measurements.

Pharmacy would be better off with 3% job growth if every school that opened since 2000 shut it's doors.

So yes, the PA/NP job numbers may be exploding, but if the number of graduates also explodes it doesn't mean the "job market" has improved for them.

Eventually, every single health care job is going to be market saturated.

Remember it's supply and demand.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You do realize "job growth" has nothing to do with the "job market" ie: the number of programs right?

They are two different measurements.

Pharmacy would be better off with 3% job growth if every school that opened since 2000 shut it's doors.

So yes, the PA/NP job numbers may be exploding, but if the number of graduates also explodes it doesn't mean the "job market" has improved for them.

Eventually, every single health care job is going to be market saturated.

Remember it's supply and demand.

That actually raises a good question -- when the BLS calculates that they expect a particular profession to experience "X"% job growth over the next 10 years, are they taking into account the number of schools that exist? Apparently they don't, but a lot of people seem to talk as if they do. In other words, would pharmacy's outlook still be as bad as 6% even if none of the new schools that opened since the year 2000 were still around, and would the PA/NP projections still be 37% if they were already graduating enough new practitioners every year to saturate their job markets?

 

[wagrxm2000]

That actually raises a good question -- when the BLS calculates that they expect a particular profession to experience "X"% job growth over the next 10 years, are they taking into account the number of schools that exist? Apparently they don't, but a lot of people seem to talk as if they do. In other words, would pharmacy's outlook still be as bad as 6% even if none of the new schools that opened since the year 2000 were still around, and would the PA/NP projections still be 37% if they were already graduating enough new practitioners every year to saturate their job markets?

Why do you care about a profession you have nothing to do with?

It's been what a month since you trolled here? So you lost out on another $10k since you can't get into a program.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Why do you care about a profession you have nothing to do with?

It's been what a month since you trolled here? So you lost out on another $10k since you can't get into a program.

Why do you think I can't get into a program? Because in your view, anyone who manages to get accepted to another health professions program would, by default, simply stop posting on the pharmacy forum?

And I don't know what you mean when you say that I "lost out on another $10k," unless you're referring to the fact that I lost out on going another $10k+ in debt to waste away in another semester of pharmacy school.

How about this... why don't you actually try to refute some of the facts I post on here instead of accusing me of being a "troll" for simply bringing them up in the first place? (aside from you saying some variation of "Oh, it's a non-issue from my perspective because I already have my high-paying job secured")

 

[wagrxm2000]

Why do you think I can't get into a program? Because in your view, anyone who manages to get accepted to another health professions program would, by default, simply stop posting on the pharmacy forum?

And I don't know what you mean when you say that I "lost out on another $10k," unless you're referring to the fact that I lost out on going another $10k+ in debt to waste away in another semester of pharmacy school.

How about this... why don't you actually try to refute some of the facts I post on here instead of accusing me of being a "troll" for simply bringing them up in the first place? (aside from you saying some variation of "Oh, it's a non-issue from my perspective because I already have my high-paying job secured")

There's nothing wrong with info you post, the problem is the reason behind it and why you keep talking about professions that have nothing to do with pharmacy. Why would any pharmacist care about pa job markets?

I'm concerned that you still haven't said you've been accepted anywhere.

The 10k is money lost by wasting your working years doing nothing instead.

You've also yet to say why you troll here instead of the prepharmacy forum. We already have jobs. This subject fits perfectly with people graduating soon. Try posting it there and see what kind of responses you get.

 

[Abby Atwood]

Average growth doesn’t seem alarming, but it is slower than other health care jobs. I don’t think people want to refute the facts you post, but I you tend to take a piece of information and catastrophize it. You also tend to build on those facts with assumptions until you no longer have accurate information. You are also an outsider, so it’s kind of rude to criticize our profession. People who trained as pharmacists are more warmly received when they make similar comments. This is an aside, but these numbers also show pharmacists to be earning about $20,000 per year more than physician assistants. I know that you disagree with that information.

*had to edit because my phone posted this comment mid sentence

 

[Pharma1995xx]

Seriously can someone please ban this PAtoPharm guy? Like why is he still here.

Legit dude like go out and get laid or something stop staying on SDN 24/7 to post your weird ass comments no one cares about.

Freak.

 

[PharmtoCS]

You've also yet to say why you troll here instead of the prepharmacy forum. We already have jobs. This subject fits perfectly with people graduating soon. Try posting it there and see what kind of responses you get.

Some people find me annoying that I post about software engineering / computer programming all the time. At least I have the sense to keep them mostly in the pre-pharm forum.

Keep up the anger phase by lashing out at us, PAtoPharm, you'll feel great when you hit the acceptance phase of not know what to do with your life.

 

[awval999]

That actually raises a good question -- when the BLS calculates that they expect a particular profession to experience "X"% job growth over the next 10 years, are they taking into account the number of schools that exist? Apparently they don't, but a lot of people seem to talk as if they do. In other words, would pharmacy's outlook still be as bad as 6% even if none of the new schools that opened since the year 2000 were still around, and would the PA/NP projections still be 37% if they were already graduating enough new practitioners every year to saturate their job markets?

You still aren't understanding my post.

Job growth has nothing to do with the number of new practitioners. The are NOT taking into account the number of schools.

We could have 10, 20 or 30% job growth and still have a terrible job market if the number of graduates increases 50, 60 or 70% percent.

You are confusing job market and job growth.

The job market depends on the number and jobs and the number of graduates.
The job growth simply depends on the number of "pharmacist" jobs.

 

[ldiot]

Maybe this is a stupid question but does 6% job growth mean 6% each year or 6% for the entire 10 years?

I did some math and if it's 6% over 10 years, we are screwed. If it is 6% every year, than there will be a huge shortage of pharmacists. Neither number makes a lot of sense. If we have only 6% more jobs 10 years from now, that means that 150,000 of the 305,000 pharmacists working today would have to retire within the next 10 years to offset the ~15,000 new grads each year. There is no way that nearly 50% of all pharmacists working today will be retired 10 years from now.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Maybe this is a stupid question but does 6% job growth mean 6% each year or 6% for the entire 10 years?

I did some math and if it's 6% over 10 years, we are screwed. If it is 6% every year, than there will be a huge shortage of pharmacists. Neither number makes a lot of sense. If we have only 6% more jobs 10 years from now, that means that 150,000 of the 305,000 pharmacists working today would have to retire within the next 10 years to offset the ~15,000 new grads each year. There is no way that nearly 50% of all pharmacists working today will be retired 10 years from now.

My guess is that pharmacy will become more like law.

The good, experienced, and established professionals will be able to continue practicing, whereas there are many law school new graduates who end up in paralegal (same field but very overqualified) or minimum wage retail (completely different field and vastly overqualified) positions. Imagine taking out $150k in loans only to end up at job that pays $30k/year.

 

[gwarm01]

Maybe this is a stupid question but does 6% job growth mean 6% each year or 6% for the entire 10 years?

I did some math and if it's 6% over 10 years, we are screwed. If it is 6% every year, than there will be a huge shortage of pharmacists. Neither number makes a lot of sense. If we have only 6% more jobs 10 years from now, that means that 150,000 of the 305,000 pharmacists working today would have to retire within the next 10 years to offset the ~15,000 new grads each year. There is no way that nearly 50% of all pharmacists working today will be retired 10 years from now.

Pretty sure it's 6% over 10 years.

 

[rxdawg21]

Maybe this is a stupid question but does 6% job growth mean 6% each year or 6% for the entire 10 years?

I did some math and if it's 6% over 10 years, we are screwed. If it is 6% every year, than there will be a huge shortage of pharmacists. Neither number makes a lot of sense. If we have only 6% more jobs 10 years from now, that means that 150,000 of the 305,000 pharmacists working today would have to retire within the next 10 years to offset the ~15,000 new grads each year. There is no way that nearly 50% of all pharmacists working today will be retired 10 years from now.

This is exactly my point. The numbers only point to one thing, pharmacy is going to be screwed (unless some massive unforeseen change happens). I honestly think it is going to effect wages more then people think (people talk about sticky wages etc). I have a hard time believing the stick wage theory when new grads will work for 90-100k and you are making 140-150k as an experienced pharmacist who doesn't excel at the new initiatives (MTM, vaccinations).

 

[PAtoPharm]

This is exactly my point. The numbers only point to one thing, pharmacy is going to be screwed (unless some massive unforeseen change happens). I honestly think it is going to effect wages more then people think (people talk about sticky wages etc). I have a hard time believing the stick wage theory when new grads will work for 90-100k and you are making 140-150k as an experienced pharmacist who doesn't excel at the new initiatives (MTM, vaccinations).

When I posted here several months ago that I thought the unemployment rate in the pharmacy profession could reach 50%+ in 3-5 years, basically everyone argued with me and said that more pharmacists would be hired part-time to take advantage of the oversupply. Now, it sounds like more people are starting to think like I was thinking back them (I.e., acknowledging that the situation actually could/will get really, really bad). You know what feels like a punch in the gut? I'm on a jobs email list for a PA recruiter, and she emailed out info on a job this morning in a nice-looking Oregon town (not BFE) for a dermatology PA; the starting salary is $165k with $35k bonus potential, 4 weeks of PTO, 401k, and hours of 8 AM - 5 PM Mon - Thurs, no call. That's the potential to earn the salary of a primary care physician for working 36 hrs/week. It almost sounds too good to be true, but I guess PAs/NPs really do just have demand on their side right now.

BTW, something else that made me confident about dropping out of pharmacy school is the fact that while the oversupply is one issue in the profession, it isn't the only one -- there are also issues with declining reimbursements (to the extent that it is becoming difficult/impossible to simply break even on prescriptions), lack of ability to receive reimbursement from insurance companies (makes the future for hospital/clinical pharmacists shaky), the threat of automation, overall contraction in the pharmacy industry (I.e., companies closing pharmacy locations, choosing to get out of the pharmacy business, etc.). Even if the pharmacist oversupply didn't exist, there are so many other issues that threaten the viability of pharmacy as a profession.

 

[rxdawg21]

So dermatology makes 400k plus as physician. I'm sure the pa jobs for them are highly competitive

 

[DrVader]

This is exactly my point. The numbers only point to one thing, pharmacy is going to be screwed (unless some massive unforeseen change happens). I honestly think it is going to effect wages more then people think (people talk about sticky wages etc). I have a hard time believing the stick wage theory when new grads will work for 90-100k and you are making 140-150k as an experienced pharmacist who doesn't excel at the new initiatives (MTM, vaccinations).

I bet good money that behind the price of drugs, labor is the highest cost for chain pharmacy. Pharmacist didn't make what they make now before the 90s. It is crazy to think that companies will not cut wages. A student with 200k in debt has no choice but to work for anything they are given.

 

[PAtoPharm]

So dermatology makes 400k plus as physician. I'm sure the pa jobs for them are highly competitive

Maybe so. I was just throwing it out there because I literally just received it in my inbox this morning and it was a convenient random example. Ironically enough, based on the recruiter's wording of the job email, it sounds like they're having a hard time filling the position.

But that's just the thing -- even if dermatology PA jobs really are competitive to be hired for, then a PA can complete a 1-yr residency in dermatology to become more competitive. This would be an example of someone pursuing additional training to improve their chances of getting a job that pays more and (depending on personal preferences) is more enjoyable. On the other hand, when someone spends an extra 1-2 yrs pursuing additional training in pharmacy, it's to be more competitive for a job that pays LESS than the jobs they would be stuck working if they hadn't completed a residency. Makes no sense.

 

[steveysmith54]

sounds like this is great information to share in the PA forum.

We get it, you think PA is a great field. Good. go pursue PA.

 

[PAtoPharm]

sounds like this is great information to share in the PA forum.

We get it, you think PA is a great field. Good. go pursue PA.

Ok, but look at it from this perspective... even if you knew that someone was truly passionate about being a pharmacist and about doing pharmacist work, would you honestly tell them, in good conscience, to pursue a career as a pharmacist, knowing what you know about the likely future trajectory the profession will take?

And I'm not necessarily trying to make the point that the PA profession in particular is so much better off than pharmacy; moreso, it's about making the point that pretty much any other health professions program is in better shape than pharmacy. It really just boggles my mind how the "leaders" in the APhA can continue to bury their heads in the sand and avoid addressing the issues in the profession. A few weeks ago, someone posted a link to an interview that was conducted with someone from the APhA, and they just wanted to spew some BS about how they felt the next shortage in pharmacy would arise due to some stupid study they were conducting to see how pharmacists can benefit medical practices by working in doctors' offices. It makes me wonder if they really just don't get it, or if they're intentionally dodging/avoiding addressing the issues.

 

[owlegrad]

If a pharmacist was moving to Oregon for a job you would cal it BFE. But for a PA job it looks like "a nice town". Perception bias. PA's can only work in some states, RPh's can work in any. You trust BLS statistics for PA's, but not RPh's. Your hopelessly biased and I don't think you are mature enough to realize it. Hopefully one day you will be.

I actually think PA is a great field though and would recommend it to anyone considering it, but I promise you it will not be a golden ticket. Please go become a PA and come back when you are working and tell us all how it was the best decision you ever made. We will all be here waiting.

 

[PAtoPharm]

If a pharmacist was moving to Oregon for a job you would cal it BFE. But for a PA job it looks like "a nice town". Perception bias. PA's can only work in some states, RPh's can work in any. You trust BLS statistics for PA's, but not RPh's. Your hopelessly biased and I don't think you are mature enough to realize it. Hopefully one day you will be.

I actually think PA is a great field though and would recommend it to anyone considering it, but I promise you it will not be a golden ticket. Please go become a PA and come back when you are working and tell us all how it was the best decision you ever made. We will all be here waiting.

What do you mean I trust the BLS stats for the PA profession but not pharmacy? I have referenced the BLS stats on here many times regarding pharmacy. The stats suck; when have I ever argued that?

And I specifically said that the PA job posting was not in BFE because the job listing makes it clear, based on population stats and proximity to other cities, that it isn't. What is your definition of BFE? This is a small town with over 60k people that is 10-15 minutes away from other cities. That is not my definition of BFE. My definition of BFE is a town with only a few thousand people or less that is 3-5 hours away from the nearest medium-sized city, like Waycross, GA, Moultrie, GA, or one of any number of small AL or MS towns that also have the nice bonus of being dirt poor and which offer literally nothing in terms of incentives to move there.

The thing about hypothetically moving far away to Oregon (regardless of whether the location is BFE or not) for a PA job like the one I posted about that makes it a different situation from pharmacy is that the job in Oregon is offering a much better-than-average overall package than what most PAs are offered ($165k for 35 hrs/wk? Duh). On the other hand, pharmacy school grads are having to move to BFE areas in the middle of nowhere, but it's not to find a better-than-average pharmacist job... it's just to find ANY pharmacist job they can get (and it will most likely be a job that pays the same as or less than one they'd have been able to get 5-6 years ago in any other more desirable area).

That's one of the things that was a deal breaker for me with pharmacy - the prospect of hustling and moving far away to an undesirable area not to get a really good pharmacist job, but just to find any entry-level job I can. If someone is going to put themselves in the situation of having to move far away to start their career, why not pursue a profession that rewards that willingness with a job and compensation package that is better than the average? Unless someone just really loves pharmacy....

BTW, maybe you were thinking about AAs, but PAs can actually work in all 50 states.

 

[wagrxm2000]

What do you mean I trust the BLS stats for the PA profession but not pharmacy? I have referenced the BLS stats on here many times regarding pharmacy. The stats suck; when have I ever argued that?

And I specifically said that the PA job posting was not in BFE because the job listing makes it clear, based on population stats and proximity to other cities, that it isn't. What is your definition of BFE? This is a small town with over 60k people that is 10-15 minutes away from other cities. That is not my definition of BFE. My definition of BFE is a town with only a few thousand people or less that is 3-5 hours away from the nearest medium-sized city, like Waycross, GA, Moultrie, GA, or one of any number of small AL or MS towns that also have the nice bonus of being dirt poor and which offer literally nothing in terms of incentives to move there.

The thing about hypothetically moving far away to Oregon (regardless of whether the location is BFE or not) for a PA job like the one I posted about that makes it a different situation from pharmacy is that the job in Oregon is offering a much better-than-average overall package than what most PAs are offered ($165k for 35 hrs/wk? Duh). On the other hand, pharmacy school grads are having to move to BFE areas in the middle of nowhere, but it's not to find a better-than-average pharmacist job... it's just to find ANY pharmacist job they can get (and it will most likely be a job that pays the same as or less than one they'd have been able to get 5-6 years ago in any other more desirable area).

That's one of the things that was a deal breaker for me with pharmacy - the prospect of hustling and moving far away to an undesirable area not to get a really good pharmacist job, but just to find any entry-level job I can. If someone is going to put themselves in the situation of having to move far away to start their career, why not pursue a profession that rewards that willingness with a job and compensation package that is better than the average? Unless someone just really loves pharmacy....

BTW, maybe you were thinking about AAs, but PAs can actually work in all 50 states.

This is too funny. Money makes any place to live acceptable it sounds like. You are now saying the exact opposite as before. I guess the Midwest is an amazing place to live since an hour can get you to practically any big city.

You still never answered my question, why continue to post here instead of in the prepharmacy forum where you'd be talking to people that DON'T ALREADY HAVE A JOB AND DON'T CARE ABOUT PAs?

 

[owlegrad]

What do you mean I trust the BLS stats for the PA profession but not pharmacy? I have referenced the BLS stats on here many times regarding pharmacy. The stats suck; when have I ever argued that?

And I specifically said that the PA job posting was not in BFE because the job listing makes it clear, based on population stats and proximity to other cities, that it isn't. What is your definition of BFE? This is a small town with over 60k people that is 10-15 minutes away from other cities. That is not my definition of BFE. My definition of BFE is a town with only a few thousand people or less that is 3-5 hours away from the nearest medium-sized city, like Waycross, GA, Moultrie, GA, or one of any number of small AL or MS towns that also have the nice bonus of being dirt poor and which offer literally nothing in terms of incentives to move there.

The thing about hypothetically moving far away to Oregon (regardless of whether the location is BFE or not) for a PA job like the one I posted about that makes it a different situation from pharmacy is that the job in Oregon is offering a much better-than-average overall package than what most PAs are offered ($165k for 35 hrs/wk? Duh). On the other hand, pharmacy school grads are having to move to BFE areas in the middle of nowhere, but it's not to find a better-than-average pharmacist job... it's just to find ANY pharmacist job they can get (and it will most likely be a job that pays the same as or less than one they'd have been able to get 5-6 years ago in any other more desirable area).

That's one of the things that was a deal breaker for me with pharmacy - the prospect of hustling and moving far away to an undesirable area not to get a really good pharmacist job, but just to find any entry-level job I can. If someone is going to put themselves in the situation of having to move far away to start their career, why not pursue a profession that rewards that willingness with a job and compensation package that is better than the average? Unless someone just really loves pharmacy....

BTW, maybe you were thinking about AAs, but PAs can actually work in all 50 states.

Yes my bad, I didn't realize that only applied to AAs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

 

[owlegrad]

This is too funny. Money makes any place to live acceptable it sounds like. You are now saying the exact opposite as before. I guess the Midwest is an amazing place to live since an hour can get you to practically any big city.

You still never answered my question, why continue to post here instead of in the prepharmacy forum where you'd be talking to people that DON'T ALREADY HAVE A JOB AND DON'T CARE ABOUT PAs?

That's the part that gets me he doesn't even realize he's applying a different standard to PA than he does to pharmacy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

 

[PAtoPharm]

That's the part that gets me he doesn't even realize he's applying a different standard to PA than he does to pharmacy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

Obviously, both you and wagrxm2000 missed the point I made in my post. I would NOT move to a BFE area to work as a PA or any other kind of professional. However, I wouldn't have a problem moving to a nice, desirable upscale area with good restaurants, nice amenities, proximity to other areas, etc. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons I cited for quitting pharmacy school is that I most likely wouldn't have been able to do this because these are the kinds of areas that are beyond saturated in pharmacy. On the other hand, I would not be willing to move to a BFE community in MS or AL (remember when people were arguing with me on here because they didn't agree with my perception that towns like Andalusia, AL and Brewton, AL were undesirable BFE locations)?

 

[owlegrad]

Obviously, both you and wagrxm2000 missed the point I made in my post. I would NOT move to a BFE area to work as a PA or any other kind of professional. However, I wouldn't have a problem moving to a nice, desirable upscale area with good restaurants, nice amenities, proximity to other areas, etc. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons I cited for quitting pharmacy school is that I most likely wouldn't have been able to do this because these are the kinds of areas that are beyond saturated in pharmacy. On the other hand, I would not be willing to move to a BFE community in MS or AL (remember when people were arguing with me on here because they didn't agree with my perception that towns like Andalusia, AL and Brewton, AL were undesirable BFE locations)?

Sure, the problem must be us, not you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

 

[PAtoPharm]

Sure, the problem must be us, not you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

Is that supposed to be some sort of weak insult? So you're resorting to accusing me of having some sort of character flaw for not wanting to live in some of the most desolate, poor, nothing-to-offer areas of the country? In that case, guilty as charged, I guess. I admit that I lack the passion to want to work badly enough in any profession that I'd be willing to move to one of those areas. Wow, that was cathartic. I feel good now.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Obviously, both you and wagrxm2000 missed the point I made in my post. I would NOT move to a BFE area to work as a PA or any other kind of professional. However, I wouldn't have a problem moving to a nice, desirable upscale area with good restaurants, nice amenities, proximity to other areas, etc. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons I cited for quitting pharmacy school is that I most likely wouldn't have been able to do this because these are the kinds of areas that are beyond saturated in pharmacy. On the other hand, I would not be willing to move to a BFE community in MS or AL (remember when people were arguing with me on here because they didn't agree with my perception that towns like Andalusia, AL and Brewton, AL were undesirable BFE locations)?

If 60k population is desirable then there's plenty of that here in the Midwest. That is my point.

Please tell me why you don't post in the prepharmacy forum and I promise if it makes sense I will stop telling you to get out. I really want to know why the pharmacy forum makes more sense to you. Until you answer, it'll continue to appear you are just trolling to once again people with good jobs already.

 

[steveysmith54]

If 60k population is desirable then there's plenty of that here in the Midwest. That is my point.

Please tell me why you don't post in the prepharmacy forum and I promise if it makes sense I will stop telling you to get out. I really want to know why the pharmacy forum makes more sense to you. Until you answer, it'll continue to appear you are just trolling to once again people with good jobs already.

It has become sad. One thing that I learned in life is there is very little benefit (if any) in looking back and it's always best to look forward. If one needs to post to constantly justify/validate/proof one's decision(s) made to others, it's really not healthy. He is not answering your question bc nothing else to say. He can post 6 page well written essays that are completely irrelevant though, that's proven. Maybe he also enjoys the attention. I think many posters here tried to honestly help him and provide advice based on life experiences etc.

 

[owlegrad]

Is that supposed to be some sort of weak insult?

Not at all dude. You unironically said that me and wags didn't understand YOUR post and I was agreeing that the problem most certainly had to be us because there is no way that it is you who isn't getting our points.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

When I posted here several months ago that I thought the unemployment rate in the pharmacy profession could reach 50%+ in 3-5 years, basically everyone argued with me and said that more pharmacists would be hired part-time to take advantage of the oversupply. Now, it sounds like more people are starting to think like I was thinking back them (I.e., acknowledging that the situation actually could/will get really, really bad). You know what feels like a punch in the gut? I'm on a jobs email list for a PA recruiter, and she emailed out info on a job this morning in a nice-looking Oregon town (not BFE) for a dermatology PA; the starting salary is $165k with $35k bonus potential, 4 weeks of PTO, 401k, and hours of 8 AM - 5 PM Mon - Thurs, no call. That's the potential to earn the salary of a primary care physician for working 36 hrs/week. It almost sounds too good to be true, but I guess PAs/NPs really do just have demand on their side right now.

BTW, something else that made me confident about dropping out of pharmacy school is the fact that while the oversupply is one issue in the profession, it isn't the only one -- there are also issues with declining reimbursements (to the extent that it is becoming difficult/impossible to simply break even on prescriptions), lack of ability to receive reimbursement from insurance companies (makes the future for hospital/clinical pharmacists shaky), the threat of automation, overall contraction in the pharmacy industry (I.e., companies closing pharmacy locations, choosing to get out of the pharmacy business, etc.). Even if the pharmacist oversupply didn't exist, there are so many other issues that threaten the viability of pharmacy as a profession.

Cool. Upload a pic of the job listing and maybe I'll believe your bull----. Just as always, you're making up stuff because you've got too much time being an unemployed virgin who's stuck living in his mother's basement.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Cool. Upload a pic of the job listing and maybe I'll believe your bull----. Just as always, you're making up stuff because you've got too much time being an unemployed virgin who's stuck living in his mother's basement.

Here you go, straight from the basement-dwelling virgin himself:

Dermatology PAJob Listing

Yes, the FACT is, PAs and NPs are in such high demand that they are truly being offered opportunities to earn $165k-$200k to work in desirable specialties. On the other hand, a pharmacist who ventures out to a smaller community not only isn't likely to earn a higher-than-average salary, they'll simply be obligated to feel lucky that they found ANY bottom-of-the-barrel pharmacist job.

So yes, a PA/NP who is willing to live/work in a smaller community is paid more for this willingness. A pharmacist is not (excluding some CA jobs).

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Here you go, straight from the basement-dwelling virgin himself:

Dermatology PAJob Listing

Yes, the FACT is, PAs and NPs are in such high demand that they are truly being offered opportunities to earn $165k-$200k to work in desirable specialties. On the other hand, a pharmacist who ventures out to a smaller community not only isn't likely to earn a higher-than-average salary, they'll simply be obligated to feel lucky that they found ANY bottom-of-the-barrel pharmacist job.

So yes, a PA/NP who is willing to live/work in a smaller community is paid more for this willingness. A pharmacist is not (excluding some CA jobs).

UMADBRO? Too bad that will never be you.

LOL at PAtoPharm's job listing coming from Merrit Hawkins. I decided to look around that website and I found this gem:

A job listing for an NP that claims "$235,000 Base + Production", but in the description it has "Income potential: Up to $180,000"

Sounds kinda sketchy to me.

 

[PAtoPharm]

UMADBRO? Too bad that will never be you.

LOL at PAtoPharm's job listing coming from Merrit Hawkins. I decided to look around that website and I found this gem:
View attachment 225076
A job listing for an NP that claims "$235,000 Base + Production", but in the description it has "Income potential: Up to $180,000"

Sounds kinda sketchy to me.

Wow, you actually copied, pasted, and Googled the text of the job listing because you honestly thought I made it up. That's sad. It also goes to show that some people in pharmacy can't wrap their heads around the fact that spending ~2 more years in school after undergrad can lead to such a better job, income, and lifestyle than pharmacy could ever offer.

I have no idea what the deal is with the other job listing you posted, but I would imagine that the $235k includes benefits or possibly some sort of potential bonus pay. I'm sure they'd be happy to clarify for you if you called/emailed them since there is so much demand in the PA/NP professions that they'd be eager to answer any questions you may have if they think it might get them one step closer to hiring a potential candidate.

BTW, keep telling yourself that will never be me. In reality, you're the one who faces that circumstance since you're so far along with pharmacy school that it's too late to change directions and pursue something like this. I know you want to convince yourself that there's simply no way I could ever get accepted to PA school, but if you can manage to quell the voice of whatever complex you have that's telling you that, you realize that with hundreds of PA/NP programs out there, it's practically an inevitability.

 

[vinny808]

The Rooster Bar by John Grisham

I’m reading The Rooster Bar by John Grisham, a thriller about student loan debt and third tier for profit law schools. Grisham should have a sequel about pharmacy school in 5 years. I bet the first year pharmacy students who were dropped out/ kicked out are getting the last laugh!

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Wow, you actually copied, pasted, and Googled the text of the job listing because you honestly thought I made it up. That's sad. It also goes to show that some people in pharmacy can't wrap their heads around the fact that spending ~2 more years in school after undergrad can lead to such a better job, income, and lifestyle than pharmacy could ever offer.

I have no idea what the deal is with the other job listing you posted, but I would imagine that the $235k includes benefits or possibly some sort of potential bonus pay. I'm sure they'd be happy to clarify for you if you called/emailed them since there is so much demand in the PA/NP professions that they'd be eager to answer any questions you may have if they think it might get them one step closer to hiring a potential candidate.

BTW, keep telling yourself that will never be me. In reality, you're the one who faces that circumstance since you're so far along with pharmacy school that it's too late to change directions and pursue something like this. I know you want to convince yourself that there's simply no way I could ever get accepted to PA school, but if you can manage to quell the voice of whatever complex you have that's telling you that, you realize that with hundreds of PA/NP programs out there, it's practically an inevitability.

LOL.

You posted a job posting that sounded too good to be true and you call me 'sad' for looking it up. Based on what I saw in the other listings on the website, I wouldn't be surprised if the job is less than advertised.

I go to a state school and receive several scholarships that cover a good chunk of tuition. By the end of my 4 years I'll probably be 60-70K in the hole. That doesn't sound too bad when you compare it to the 50-60K you spent for 1 year of pharmacy school at a private institution. Talk about being gullible and foolish (but I guess that makes sense, since you're gullible to believe anything that confirms your narrow-minded world-view).

Based on your performance in professional schools (dropping out of AA and RPH school), I wouldn't hold my breath on your chances of attending PA school, medical school, or even dental school. Enjoy living with your mother and pretending that you're a member of a profession that doesn't even want you.

 

[vinny808]

Bruh you can spend 6 months in a boot camp and make more than a pharmacist

 

[CynicalIntern]

For what it's worth, PAtoPharm, I know a number of Derm PAs. I know Derm PAs in Statesboro, Braselton, Dublin, and a number of tiny cities across Georgia, since it's the best comparison that you know. One of my best friends is a derm PA, and she just left her job and found a new one after interviewing at five different locations. So my n=1 experience of knowing people who are ACTUALLY looking for jobs probably trumps your experience of seeing postings by recruiters for a field that you're not actually in yet.

They ain't making 165k. MAYBE after bonus they're making 140. But their base is still lower than pharmacists, and bonuses aren't easy to earn in those large practices, because they're based on your billables - and the PAs tend to be stuck with the less profitable patients.

I'm not denying PA is a fine field. I'm not even denying that PA is a better field for you. I'm not denying that the field of pharmacy is in trouble (Though I also live in Georgia, recently lost my job, and found a better one - in Atlanta - within a month, so your 'everything is doomed' perspective isn't 100% accurate). But for you to continue to come on here and boast about how smart you are before you actually become a PA is going to be hilarious when three years from now you graduated from whatever PA school you get into and end up working in primary care in Moultrie.

You've been asked why you don't go to the PA forum. You continue to respond that you want to keep track of the pharmacy field. That's perfectly acceptable - I keep track of Walgreens too, even though I don't work there anymore. I congratulate myself on not having to work there anymore. But 1) I'm not dumb enough to taunt the people who are still with the company, and 2) I'm focused on the future - whereas it seems like the only planning you're doing for actual PA school is looking at job opportunities that you don't qualify for. Perhaps you might want to consider discussing with the PA forums how better to prepare yourself for these jobs.

E: For clarity's sake, this is what I want you to do. What is your estimated earnings potential for the next five years. What is the Estimated earnings potential of everyone that you're arguing with over the next 5 years? Based on my math, you're going to be about 300,000 dollars in the hole. Now, 10 years from now, when you make up the difference, you can come back and brag to everyone about how smart you were. But until then, no matter how much you insist that you're right, you have no high ground over anyone here.

 

[PAtoPharm]

LOL.

You posted a job posting that sounded too good to be true and you call me 'sad' for looking it up. Based on what I saw in the other listings on the website, I wouldn't be surprised if the job is less than advertised.

I go to a state school and receive several scholarships that cover a good chunk of tuition. By the end of my 4 years I'll probably be 60-70K in the hole. That doesn't sound too bad when you compare it to the 50-60K you spent for 1 year of pharmacy school at a private institution. Talk about being gullible and foolish (but I guess that makes sense, since you're gullible to believe anything that confirms your narrow-minded world-view).

Based on your performance in professional schools (dropping out of AA and RPH school), I wouldn't hold my breath on your chances of attending PA school, medical school, or even dental school. Enjoy living with your mother and pretending that you're a member of a profession that doesn't even want you.

You just refuse to acknowledge that there's any possibility that someone with my kind of background and track record could actually achieve entry into a profession that is and will be better off than yours. I just don't even care enough to argue with all this cheap shot silliness ("living with ur mom hur hur buuurn").

But let's say you're right, and I end up being a failure with what I'm trying to pursue. Or let's say that you're even more right in the sense that through multiple PA school rejections, the profession collectively conveys to me that they don't want me in their field. You'd be right in that case, but you'd also have no choice but to acknowledge that there is a profession out there that will ALWAYS be desperate enough to welcome me with open arms -- yours. And probably at your precious state schools, too. Of course, with the largest employers in the pharmacy profession actively pursuing opportunities to replace your kind with automation technology, I wouldn't hold my breath on pharmacy still being a viable profession to pursue at that point:



BTW, I didn't spend anywhere near $50k on pharmacy school. In fact, I had a scholarship that reduced each semester's tuition by almost 50%. I was offered it before I even started the program. All I had to do was keep a 3.0 GPA. Yes, pharmacy schools really are getting that desperate.

 

[wagrxm2000]

PaToPharm doesn't seem to ever want to respond to any questions pertaining to why he continues to post here.

Keep sitting at home losing an average of $120k each year.

He doesn't even realize there's a pharmacist still required in his video. The laws need changed before the profession dies.

 

[owlegrad]

PaToPharm doesn't seem to ever want to respond to any questions pertaining to why he continues to post here.

Keep sitting at home losing an average of $120k each year.

He doesn't even realize there's a pharmacist still required in his video. The laws need changed before the profession dies.

Right, and I guess telemedicine isn't a thing that PA's need to worry about? So confused.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile

 

[PAtoPharm]

For what it's worth, PAtoPharm, I know a number of Derm PAs. I know Derm PAs in Statesboro, Braselton, Dublin, and a number of tiny cities across Georgia, since it's the best comparison that you know. One of my best friends is a derm PA, and she just left her job and found a new one after interviewing at five different locations. So my n=1 experience of knowing people who are ACTUALLY looking for jobs probably trumps your experience of seeing postings by recruiters for a field that you're not actually in yet.

They ain't making 165k. MAYBE after bonus they're making 140. But their base is still lower than pharmacists, and bonuses aren't easy to earn in those large practices, because they're based on your billables - and the PAs tend to be stuck with the less profitable patients.

I'm not denying PA is a fine field. I'm not even denying that PA is a better field for you. I'm not denying that the field of pharmacy is in trouble (Though I also live in Georgia, recently lost my job, and found a better one - in Atlanta - within a month, so your 'everything is doomed' perspective isn't 100% accurate). But for you to continue to come on here and boast about how smart you are before you actually become a PA is going to be hilarious when three years from now you graduated from whatever PA school you get into and end up working in primary care in Moultrie.

You've been asked why you don't go to the PA forum. You continue to respond that you want to keep track of the pharmacy field. That's perfectly acceptable - I keep track of Walgreens too, even though I don't work there anymore. I congratulate myself on not having to work there anymore. But 1) I'm not dumb enough to taunt the people who are still with the company, and 2) I'm focused on the future - whereas it seems like the only planning you're doing for actual PA school is looking at job opportunities that you don't qualify for. Perhaps you might want to consider discussing with the PA forums how better to prepare yourself for these jobs.

E: For clarity's sake, this is what I want you to do. What is your estimated earnings potential for the next five years. What is the Estimated earnings potential of everyone that you're arguing with over the next 5 years? Based on my math, you're going to be about 300,000 dollars in the hole. Now, 10 years from now, when you make up the difference, you can come back and brag to everyone about how smart you were. But until then, no matter how much you insist that you're right, you have no high ground over anyone here.

First of all, what do the salaries of PAs working in small, mostly low-income communities in GA have to do with a what a derm practice in an affluent small city in OR is offering? There is also a PA job opening in my area (GA) offering a starting salary of $60k-$70k to work in a pediatrics office. To me, that sucks and I would never consider taking a job like that, especially when more wealthier, more affluent areas with much better payer mix demographics (I'm sure you know that outside of Atlanta, many other small/medium-sized cities in GA have payer mix demographics that approach 80-90% Medicaid/Medicare) are offering much better overall earnings/benefits/PTO packages. That is precisely one of the advantages of becoming a PA I have mentioned on here before: while there are PA jobs that suck and/or don't pay well, at the same time, it is possible to get additional training (1-year residency) and qualify for an all-around BETTER job somewhere. On the other hand (as I have also stated before), completing 1-2 additional years of training in pharmacy typically makes someone competitive for a job that pays significantly less than the retail jobs that don't (yet) require residency completion, which makes no sense to me. Extra training should = extra money/better job.

... And where the hell are you getting this prophecy from that I will end up working in a primary care hellhole in Moultrie when I graduate? Considering that the most recently-updated BLS stats for the PA profession project 37% growth over the next 10 years, what are you basing this on? Are you implying that you think the job market will suddenly collapse at some point within the next 3 years? Or do you think I'll end up becoming such a substandard PA that I, personally, won't have any other job prospects, even if better jobs are out there? I really am curious to know, because I could absolutely never imagine living in Moultrie, GA, would not ever be willing to move there for any profession or job, and would actually go back to school to do something else (even after completing PA school) before I ever moved there.

BTW, there is a good chance I'll end up repaying my loans via IBR as several others on the forum have mentioned doing, depending on what my future income prospects look like and the actual amount of debt I end up graduating with. If it becomes clear that I'll pay back less money overall by going on IBR as compared to legitimately paying off the loans, then I'll simply do IBR. I wouldn't be too confident about your $300k estimate, though, because the PA schools I'm shooting for would actually cost less than it would've cost to finish the last 3 years of pharmacy school.

Oh yeah, to do your whole calculated earnings "thought experiment," I first need to know how low the new salaries offered by Walgreens (and inevitably, CVS and grocery chains) are going to be after they've determined the new salary scale following the current wage freeze.