Board retakes

[DD214_DOC]

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How difficult would it be to match into Military FM (or psych or IM) if one has multiple takes (more than one, not like 4) on COMLEX Level I? I DO NOT YET HAVE MY SCORE, I'm just curious.

Do you stand pretty much zero chance of matching, and have to hope you match civilian and get deferred?

Also, I read somewhere that if you have to take the board more than twice the Army gives you the boot -- is this usually enforced or do they tend to ignore it?

Thanks.

 

[psychbender]

How difficult would it be to match into Military FM (or psych or IM) if one has multiple takes (more than one, not like 4) on COMLEX Level I? I DO NOT YET HAVE MY SCORE, I'm just curious.

Do you stand pretty much zero chance of matching, and have to hope you match civilian and get deferred?

Also, I read somewhere that if you have to take the board more than twice the Army gives you the boot -- is this usually enforced or do they tend to ignore it?

Thanks.

Why would they grant a civilian deferrment (something that is highly desired) to someone who failed one of the board exams?

One of my buddies failed COMLEX I the first time around, passed it on attempt #2, and matched to FM at her number 1 spot in the Army. Then again, she also did a boat load of rotations at that hospital, so everyone there knew her fairly well, and knew she's not an idiot. There are also plenty of unfilled spots in Army FM and IM, so while some of the PDs might cringe a bit at a failure of a board exam, they still want warm bodies to fill their programs.

 

[IgD]

I think the program directors would look at your record as a whole. Is there a pattern of academic failure or was it just an isolated incident? Are your other test scores below average? How strong are the letters of recommendation? Those are the kind of things I would look for in prospective applicants.

 

[pgg]

Why would they grant a civilian deferrment (something that is highly desired) to someone who failed one of the board exams?

This question gets asked here every so often ... the GMESB is about what's best for the military. Having a strong academic record isn't necessarily an advantage if you want a deferral.

Remember that the GMESB is run by program directors who want the best candidates possible for their programs. Given two applicants who ranked deferral #1, if I was a PD, I'd be happy to let the 3x board failer have the deferral while I took the 99th percentiler into my program.

 

[DD214_DOC]

This is the impression I was under. It's probably easier to match into a DO residency in FM with more than one board attempt than it is to match into a military program.

So anyway, what happens to a military applicant if they fail to match?

 

[IgD]

So anyway, what happens to a military applicant if they fail to match?

You keep doing GMO tours until your obligation is paid back.

 

[psychbender]

This question gets asked here every so often ... the GMESB is about what's best for the military. Having a strong academic record isn't necessarily an advantage if you want a deferral.

Remember that the GMESB is run by program directors who want the best candidates possible for their programs. Given two applicants who ranked deferral #1, if I was a PD, I'd be happy to let the 3x board failer have the deferral while I took the 99th percentiler into my program.

Ok, hadn't thought about it from that angle; makes sense.

 

[narcusprince]

This question gets asked here every so often ... the GMESB is about what's best for the military. Having a strong academic record isn't necessarily an advantage if you want a deferral.

Remember that the GMESB is run by program directors who want the best candidates possible for their programs. Given two applicants who ranked deferral #1, if I was a PD, I'd be happy to let the 3x board failer have the deferral while I took the 99th percentiler into my program.

Is this a potential jab at civilian deferred candidates. I would respectfully disagree. I was told that in order to get civilian deferrals you have to be the most competitive applicant. I was told by my specialty adviser that they rank candidates by order of merit with the top getting what they want. I have a civilian deferment and most certainly passed my boards each time with competitive scores. PM me if you have any questions about deferment.

 

[DD214_DOC]

To be honest, my only concern is not getting a residency in a low-competitive field like psych or FM. I'd really rather not end up doing a TY internship then getting shipped off as a GMO and blown up in some craphole. Unfortunately, having children came after I signed the dotted line.

So this begs the question of what the Army really does with GMOs? What about FM and psych docs? Are they really dumb enough to put them in any real danger? Between FM and psych, who is least likely to be deployed to a combat zone?

Hopefully my scores will come back and none of this will matter. But, if I do have to retake, is it the kiss of death and guarantees four years of GMO?

 

[IgD]

Is this a potential jab at civilian deferred candidates. I would respectfully disagree. I was told that in order to get civilian deferrals you have to be the most competitive applicant. I was told by my specialty adviser that they rank candidates by order of merit with the top getting what they want. I have a civilian deferment and most certainly passed my boards each time with competitive scores. PM me if you have any questions about deferment.

I don't think that's always the case. Sometimes the military wants to keep the best applicants for their own programs and send the rest out service.

 

[rotatores]

Is this a potential jab at civilian deferred candidates. I would respectfully disagree. I was told that in order to get civilian deferrals you have to be the most competitive applicant. I was told by my specialty adviser that they rank candidates by order of merit with the top getting what they want. I have a civilian deferment and most certainly passed my boards each time with competitive scores. PM me if you have any questions about deferment.

I agree to disagree!🙂 I've seen this several times during the application process...being a "better qualified" applicant both on paper and in practice does NOT help your chances of getting a civilian referral. In fact, when there's a surplus in any specialty, the applicants nobody wants get referred (again...this isn't always the case and I'm not trying to start a war with all the civilian referall peeps out there).

 

[narcusprince]

No love lost. This is just what I was told by the specialty adviser. Defermants go by order of merit. For example, one of the students at my school the year ahead of me was deferred anes he was AOA 250+ board score Navy and was told by the specialty adviser that he was going to be deferred based on order of merit(gme application). Most of the people that I have known to get deferments were stellar applicants. Think about it this way would they want the smart steller students as residents or attendings(to train other residents)? Chicken or the egg? I go with the chicken

 

[pgg]

Is this a potential jab at civilian deferred candidates.

Not at all; I know you weren't one of the weak ones. To tell the truth I was surprised that they let you go ... 🙂

The military match is a funny thing. A small pool of applicants and a small number of spots generates a lot of year-to-year variability. I was a transitional intern; my class of 12 had a very disgruntled derm hopeful (who had the stats to back up those hopes) who couldn't understand why he wasn't granted a deferral. The best intern I've known during my residency was in the ICU with me last July. Same thing, medicine guy, he'd asked for a deferral and didn't get it. As we all know, individual preferences & merit doesn't always factor into the current needs of the Navy ... seems like this board gets annual visits in December from a new crop of accessions who are angry or confused that their strong records didn't translate into a desired deferral.

This is just what I was told by the specialty adviser. Defermants go by order of merit.

If you're referring to our Navy anesthesia specialty leader, I think he's something of an unusual case. From what I understand, he's more involved (in a positive way) with the billeting, deployment decisions, and GMESB than most. I'm not so sure someone asking for a deferral in another specialty would be treated the same.

It's refreshing to hear that merit matters. Then again, our specialty had 30-something ALTs on the list this year; we can probably afford to let a few gems slip out to civilian training and still get good residents. If the numbers were tighter, it might be a different story.

No jabs; just speculation. 🙂

 

[NavyFP]

Having witnessed deferment selection for the Navy, I will say that if there are deferments to give, strong candidates get the deferements. The Navy wants to give deferments to students who will match in top notch programs and there are typically enough good students who want to go Navy that allowing the stellar students to leave is not an issue.

Are there examples of great students who have requested deferments that did not get them? Probably, but you would have to look at the whole picture and not just the individual applicant. Questions like, were any deferments given? Was the guy who got the deferement even better? Were there other special circumstances? Just to name a few....

There are very few people who have the benefit of the complete picture. The current group has people who work hard to balance the needs of the service and the needs/wants of the applicants. But in the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "You can't always get what you want."

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

To be honest, my only concern is not getting a residency in a low-competitive field like psych or FM. I'd really rather not end up doing a TY internship then getting shipped off as a GMO and blown up in some craphole. Unfortunately, having children came after I signed the dotted line.

So this begs the question of what the Army really does with GMOs? What about FM and psych docs? Are they really dumb enough to put them in any real danger? Between FM and psych, who is least likely to be deployed to a combat zone?

Hopefully my scores will come back and none of this will matter. But, if I do have to retake, is it the kiss of death and guarantees four years of GMO?

As long as you are not completely hopeless, you will match in FP or Psych. Both specialties go unfilled every year. It's quite tragic really. I think psych requires a special type of physician who really loves the field, is dedicated to it, and has a truly eclectic and thorough classical education. However, some of the most hopelessly inept residents I know found their way to psych (much to the dismay of my friends who are committed and intelligent psych residents).

I actually believe that Army GMOs are less likely to deploy than FP or Psych. GMOs in the army tend to be stationed at clinics where they can move the meat and be supervised (boot camp clinics, korea, Fort Drum, etc.). FP and psych are guaranteed at least 1 and probably 2 deployments during a utilization tour in the current climate.

FWIW, do not try and game the system by applying to specialties where you think you can match and have the lowest probability of deployment. Apply for what you truly want to do. If you get it, great. If not, do your time as a GMO and GTFO. An uninterested doc who chose FP or psych for the aforementioned reason will be miserable, and the deserving soldiers he treats will be the ones that suffer.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Thanks for all of the information. Fortunately, it doesn't matter as I passed Step I on the first try.

 

[IgD]

Nothing like test taking anxiety FTW

 

[jabreal00]

---------------- Listening to: DJ Smash - Naked City via FoxyTunes

As long as you are not completely hopeless, you will match in FP or Psych. Both specialties go unfilled every year. It's quite tragic really. I think psych requires a special type of physician who really loves the field, is dedicated to it, and has a truly eclectic and thorough classical education. However, some of the most hopelessly inept residents I know found their way to psych (much to the dismay of my friends who are committed and intelligent psych residents).

I actually believe that Army GMOs are less likely to deploy than FP or Psych. GMOs in the army tend to be stationed at clinics where they can move the meat and be supervised (boot camp clinics, korea, Fort Drum, etc.). FP and psych are guaranteed at least 1 and probably 2 deployments during a utilization tour in the current climate.

FWIW, do not try and game the system by applying to specialties where you think you can match and have the lowest probability of deployment. Apply for what you truly want to do. If you get it, great. If not, do your time as a GMO and GTFO. An uninterested doc who chose FP or psych for the aforementioned reason will be miserable, and the deserving soldiers he treats will be the ones that suffer.

Good advise. Even if you failed, you would match pretty easily in an FP, Psych or even IM Army program. Some of the less desirable locations go unfilled every year.

 

[DD214_DOC]

---------------- Listening to: DJ Smash - Naked City via FoxyTunes

Good advise. Even if you failed, you would match pretty easily in an FP, Psych or even IM Army program. Some of the less desirable locations go unfilled every year.

I didn't realize Tripler was an undesirable location.

 

[CodeBlueMD]

So this begs the question of what the Army really does with GMOs? What about FM and psych docs? Are they really dumb enough to put them in any real danger? Between FM and psych, who is least likely to be deployed to a combat zone?

In my humble opinion, this is a dissapointing question being posed by a United States Army officer. Yes, the army deploys FP and psych docs to combat zones. If you're a GMO or a BC/BE M.D. and you haven't deployed, you're on a very short list of folks who haven't, but are about to. Most army physicians have deployed multiple times. Whether or not they are in "real danger" is very location dependent. Where I'm at in Afghanistan we get occasional indirect fire (still pretty safe inside the wire), whereas the larger FOBs here are pretty much like a garrison atmosphere. The more remote FOBs are attacked regularly the occupants are in much more "real danger". The soldiers on those FOBs still need a doc and if you took the oath, and are tasked with that responsibility, that will be your mission.

OIF and OEF are still in full swing and combat zones are where are soldiers are serving, en mass. They need doctors, to include FP and psych guys. The soldiers on patrol in the mountains and running convoys on the IED laced roads have kids, too. Good luck with your match.