Bottom 20

[crazy_cavalier]

I wonder if pre-law forums are this bad.

My understanding is that, *unlike med schools*, the reputation of the law school to which you matriculate plays a substantial role in your career prospective. For that reason I would imagine that rank-whoring is a bigger issue for them than it is for us.

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[DarksideAllstar]

My understanding is that, *unlike med schools*, the reputation of the law school to which you matriculate plays a substantial role in your career prospective. For that reason I would imagine that rank-whoring is a bigger issue for them than it is for us.

Fo shizzle. My girlfriend's sister landed a prestigious clerkship with an appeals court judge that she probably wouldn't have got coming from a non-top 10 law school. In med school, the only thing that really matters is how hard you work-- almost every school offers equivalent opportunities, with the exception that there might be more basic science research going on at a place with more NIH dollars. Anecdotally, not many med students have time to do much bench work (unless you are MD-PhD)-- most pubs come in the form of case reports or some clinical bs/chart reviews that can be done in a short period of time. Friends of mine at "Top 20" schools had very little interest in research, and in fact did none (not even clinical). I was under the impression from them that a good majority of students end up doing very little and/or not publishing work they did do. I'm almost positive that there are many people in my class that rival students at any ivy or "Top 20" school-- and I attend a "Bottom 20" school. As someone who has finished the residency interview trail, I was at no discernable disadvantage coming from Podunk State U.

 

[TMP-SMX]

My understanding is that, *unlike med schools*, the reputation of the law school to which you matriculate plays a substantial role in your career prospective. For that reason I would imagine that rank-whoring is a bigger issue for them than it is for us.

Friend of mine got a 99.8 percentile on the LSAT. He's a genius. But I do think that a lot of law students do want to stay in their home state.

 

[8744]

Before I became involved in medicine, the only three medical schools I had ever heard of were Dartmouth (because my sister lives in Norwhich and is the Director of Admissions for Dartmouth college), UVM (because I did my undergraduate there), and Johns Hopkins (because the name is stupid and stands out).

I propose that most people, even educated ones, don't know and don't care about medical schools, ranking, or any of the fluff. I swear to you that I thought there were thousands of medical schools, not a paltry 120 or so, and that every major university had one. I also had no idea what was involved in medical training until I got involved and, from chatting with them, neither do 99.9% of my patients. (And sometimes I regret being in the 0.1 percent)

They just don't care.

I think Harvard only takes 100 students per class, most of them Canadian. The odds of any of you getting into Harvard are, what 1 in 100? Does it mean that if you don't get in you are less of a physician? I think not.

 

[braluk]

I think Harvard only takes 100 students per class, most of them Canadian. The odds of any of you getting into Harvard are, what 1 in 100? Does it mean that if you don't get in you are less of a physician? I think not.

Im confused.....but what??

 

[QofQuimica]

Im confused.....but what??

I think that's Pandaspeak for "liberal."

OP, this is a question that has no objective answer. All accredited American medical schools provide a solid education, and so you will find people making their choices of top or bottom schools based upon such highly rational reasons as geographical location, weather, and "facts" they heard tenth-hand from their brother's best friend's sister's pet poodle, who interviewed there when it was still being trained not to go in the house, and so it was feeling kind of pissy about having to be disciplined for not being housebroken yet that day. My advice is to make educated decisions about which schools to apply to based on your own preferences, applications strengths/weaknesses, and financial aid. The MSAR and the school websites are your best friends. You can ask the opinions of a few people you trust, but even then, an awful lot of what they say will be wrong.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Have you read the book "White Coat?" It's all about the journey of a medical student at Harvard. At the end of the book she talks about match day and the number of students that decided to go into Family Practice/Primary Care was suprisingly high. A good portion of the students also chose Pediatrics and Internal Medicine. Perhaps this was just an anomaly for her class, but I thought it was interesting.

The medicine and ped's people are no surprise, but I just looked at my MSAR and saw that they only had 2% doing family med from 2000-2002. Likewise Hopkins 1%.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

OP, this is a question that has no objective answer. All accredited American medical schools provide a solid education, and so you will find people making their choices of top or bottom schools based upon such highly rational reasons as geographical location, weather, and "facts" they heard tenth-hand from their brother's best friend's sister's pet poodle, who interviewed there when it was still being trained not to go in the house, and so it was feeling kind of pissy about having to be disciplined for not being housebroken yet that day. My advice is to make educated decisions about which schools to apply to based on your own preferences, applications strengths/weaknesses, and financial aid. The MSAR and the school websites are your best friends. You can ask the opinions of a few people you trust, but even then, an awful lot of what they say will be wrong.

best advice yet.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

The medicine and ped's people are no surprise, but I just looked at my MSAR and saw that they only had 2% doing family med from 2000-2002. Likewise Hopkins 1%.

what does choosing "internal medicine" really tell us about pursuing primary care? it's a gateway to many specialties, so it doesn't suprise me that many grads from top schools choose it.

 

[Dookter]

what does choosing "internal medicine" really tell us about pursuing primary care? it's a gateway to many specialties, so it doesn't suprise me that many grads from top schools choose it.

VERY good point. You'd have to know how many of those people stayed in primary care fields without specializing in things like cadiology and GI to get a real sense of things.

 

[morriske]

florida state isnt even listed?
and harvard is not in the top 20?

If you read this entire thread you would see that this is not my belief. It was the poster Navicular that said "all that matters is NIH funding". I have expressed NO opinions on how I think med schools should be ranked

 

[soeagerun2or]

If you read this entire thread you would see that this is not my belief. It was the poster Navicular that said "all that matters is NIH funding". I have expressed NO opinions on how I think med schools should be ranked

Lol yes you have! You have made it abundantly clear you do not feel RFU should be in the bottom as others have suggested it is.

 

[chad5871]

My understanding is that, *unlike med schools*, the reputation of the law school to which you matriculate plays a substantial role in your career prospective. For that reason I would imagine that rank-whoring is a bigger issue for them than it is for us.

IN RE: LAW SCHOOL-
Correct. But graduating at the top of your class at a lower ranked school is better than graduating at the bottom of your class in an upper-tier school.

 

[Funky]

Correct. But graduating at the top of your class at a lower ranked school is better than graduating at the bottom of your class in an upper-tier school.

no not necessarily. It really depends on your USMLE score when it comes to residencies. Don't forget the almighty formula P=MD

 

[DOUBLEDIGITSII]

nice!

 

[chad5871]

no not necessarily. It really depends on your USMLE score when it comes to residencies. Don't forget the almighty formula P=MD

I was talking about law school, not med school (see the post I quoted in my post). Sorry I should have made that clearer...

 

[DOUBLEDIGITSII]

#1? The one that accepts me.

The bottom 20? The ones that don't.

nice!

 

[Funky]

I was talking about law school, not med school (see the post I quoted in my post). Sorry I should have made that clearer...

whoops..sorry

 

[Doctor Bagel]

IN RE: LAW SCHOOL-
Correct. But graduating at the top of your class at a lower ranked school is better than graduating at the bottom of your class in an upper-tier school.

Not really. A Harvard grad at the bottom of his class will get a better job than a lower tier grad at the top of his class. If you go to Harvard, you don't have to do well. The legal world is more about prestige than merit. If anyone is telling you to turn down a top school and settle for doing great at a lesser school, they're full of it.

Check out this website listing attorneys at Skadden Arps (random top law firm). Pretty much none of them went to lower tier law schools. It's all about school name.

http://www.skadden.com/Index.cfm?contentID=3

Med school's different.

 

[Auraraptor]

Anyone have a good explanation why http://grants.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl05.htm
looks so different than the numbers that US News uses for their research rankings?

I always wondered.

In short: Endowment Why? Endowment augments research grants

 

[morriske]

Lol yes you have! You have made it abundantly clear you do not feel RFU should be in the bottom as others have suggested it is.

read the following. I know RFU is lower tier/bottom/one of the worst. I have not made any statements regarding how I think med schools should be ranked.

I know that it is "lower tier" but calling it "bottom" or "one of the worst" is just offensive. I never said I wanted to believe that it was as highly ranked as "the others". Bottom Line: There are no bad MD programs in the US.

 

[scgroat]

I stopped reading after page 2 and was about to lose my mind. Are we all really that arrogant, insecure, plain dumb? We're supposed to be bright individuals that are capable of reading in between the lines. This post was addressing one question. Period! What schools are the easiest to get into. The answer? Look in your MSAR, look at instate/outofstate ratios, URM, etc. Why is it important? Well, some of us screwed up and are looking for a second chance. I was one of them. All schools will give you your second chance. If I offended anyone on page 3 or was redundant, my apologies.

 

[Navicular]

I stopped reading after page 2 and was about to lose my mind. Are we all really that arrogant, insecure, plain dumb? We're supposed to be bright individuals that are capable of reading in between the lines. This post was addressing one question. Period! What schools are the easiest to get into. The answer? Look in your MSAR, look at instate/outofstate ratios, URM, etc. Why is it important? Well, some of us screwed up and are looking for a second chance. I was one of them. All schools will give you your second chance. If I offended anyone on page 3 or was redundant, my apologies.

I doubt many screw-ups are attending WashU. Everyone should stop claiming that low-tier schools are just as good as top 20 or even the top 1/3 of schools because that is simply false.

 

[8744]

I doubt many screw-ups are attending WashU. Everyone should stop claiming that low-tier schools are just as good as top 20 or even the top 1/3 of schools because that is simply false.

Ah, I see you have drank deeply from the pitcher of Koolaid.

 

[Navicular]

Ah, I see you have drank deeply from the pitcher of Koolaid.

 

[sunnyjohn]

If Podunk College of Medicine keeps me from racking up $200K in debt and I'm able to afford to get a few decent books to top of my USMLE studies, sign me up!

Ya'll can have the top 20. I want the school with good teachers at the best price.

High USMLE scores + decent clincical performance MS III & MS IV + handful of decent away rotation + not having the personality of a tree stump + smart choice of locations/ranking at Match = Choice residency

 

[soeagerun2or]

If Podunk College of Medicine keeps me from racking up $200K in debt and I'm able to afford to get a few decent books to top of my USMLE studies, sign me up!

Ya'll can have the top 20. I want the school with good teachers at the best price.

High USMLE scores + decent clincical performance MS III & MS IV + handful of decent away rotation + not having the personality of a tree stump + smart choice of locations/ranking at Match = Choice residency

Are you a resident? Because if you're still premed making claims about how to get a choice residency I'm going to LOL until Tuesday..

 

[sunnyjohn]

Are you a resident? Because if you're still premed making claims about how to get a choice residency I'm going to LOL until Tuesday..

I'll LOL with you.

Nope, not a resident... but I guess I'm old enough to know to keep my mouth shut and listen when folks start dropping hints.

10 years in a hospital working along side fine residents and attendings also helps.

Some people care about Top 20. I just want to get in, get trained, get out and make the biggest difference in the community that my meager talents will allow- and I wanna have a nice car and take care of my mum in the manner in which she tells me she is ready to become accustomed.

I'll let you guys fight the Wash Uni v Harvard v Hopkins debate.

 

[Navicular]

I'll LOL with you.

Nope, not a resident... but I guess I'm old enough to know to keep my mouth shut and listen when folks start dropping hints.

10 years in a hospital working along side fine residents and attendings also helps.

Some people care about Top 20. I just want to get in, get trained, get out and make the biggest difference in the community that my meager talents will allow- and I wanna have a nice car and take care of my mum in the manner in which she tells me she is ready to become accustomed.

I'll let you guys fight the Wash Uni v Harvard v Hopkins debate.

You would make a bigger difference in the community by attending a research institution and making a breakthrough that would save millions of lives. I don't think there is too much cutting edge research going on at Howard, Meharry, Mercer or RFU.

 

[Moniker]

You would make a bigger difference in the community by attending a research institution and making a breakthrough that would save millions of lives. I don't think there is too much cutting edge research going on at Howard, Meharry, Mercer or RFU.

there is certainly ground-breaking, novel, prominent-in-their-field research going on at rfu especially on the scale most med students are looking for (enough to look good in getting a residency - formal programs, realistically sized projects to complete, possibility of publication etc.). there are several formal programs specifically designed for medical students to get involved in in a substantial way. i agree that the research going on isn't on the same scale as the research giants, but there are still lots of publications, lots of seminars, lots of strong research faculty, lots of opportunities for students. underutilized opportunities for students, since a lot of people discount the possibilities based on preconceived notions like those above.

 

[sunnyjohn]

You would make a bigger difference in the community by attending a research institution and making a breakthrough that would save millions of lives. I don't think there is too much cutting edge research going on at Howard, Meharry, Mercer or RFU.

Perhaps, but I don't think that research is my cup of tea.


I prefer to leave my mark in the ED (or OR or urgent care clinic). I will still strongly stand behind future colleagues who lobby for greater NIH and research funding.

 

[dilated]

It makes a difference if you want a competitive residency or a difficult field. I have a lot of friends who went off to med schools and (almost) without exception the opportunities we get correlate to the "rank" of the school. Top school = more funding for student research (summer & year off), more tolerance in classes (P/F or HPF versus letter), better facilities and big name faculty.

My summer research (automatically funded by the school) will be with the #1 surgeon in the field I like who has regularly called PDs to get his students into residencies before, whereas I have a friend who went to a low ranked school and now thinks he wants to do plastics and his school doesn't even HAVE a plastics division (this hurts you big time) and he has to try and find funding. Anybody can excel from anywhere if they work hard enough, but they sure do make it easier for you at top schools.

 

[Moniker]

It makes a difference if you want a competitive residency or a difficult field. I have a lot of friends who went off to med schools and (almost) without exception the opportunities we get correlate to the "rank" of the school. Top school = more funding for student research (summer & year off), more tolerance in classes (P/F or HPF versus letter), better facilities and big name faculty.

My summer research (automatically funded by the school) will be with the #1 surgeon in the field I like who has regularly called PDs to get his students into residencies before, whereas I have a friend who went to a low ranked school and now thinks he wants to do plastics and his school doesn't even HAVE a plastics division (this hurts you big time) and he has to try and find funding. Anybody can excel from anywhere if they work hard enough, but they sure do make it easier for you at top schools.

i don't know. i mean i agree that school rank and NIH funding and reputation have a big influence, and rfu isn't impressive in those things. still, i think the research going on is plenty for the average student to get what he/she wants out of it.

for what its worth (not that we have big numbers or anything), but we do match into pretty impressive plastics programs too and we don't have a plastics department:
2004 - (1) Brown U.
2006 - (2) Univ. of Cinncinati & Stanford U.

 

[soeagerun2or]

there is certainly ground-breaking, novel, prominent-in-their-field research going on at rfu especially on the scale most med students are looking for (enough to look good in getting a residency - formal programs, realistically sized projects to complete, possibility of publication etc.).

Novel & prominent-in-their-field adds up to nothing. At a research school a medical student can have multiple peer-reviewed top journal publications for a summer of research and potentially 10s to 100s of publications (posters, abstracts, etc.) by commencement. Getting 1 paper in a rinky-dink path journal is hardly worth the effort.

Really, the only reason schools like RFU, Toledo, Eastern Carolina have research is because the AAMC requires it and they can't be accredited without numerous, productive [and i use that term loosely], basic science research departments.

 

[Moniker]

Novel & prominent-in-their-field adds up to nothing. At a research school a medical student can have multiple peer-reviewed top journal publications for a summer of research and potentially 10s to 100s of publications (posters, abstracts, etc.) by commencement. Getting 1 paper in a rinky-dink path journal is hardly worth the effort.

Really, the only reason schools like RFU, Toledo, Eastern Carolina have research is because the AAMC requires it and they can't be accredited without numerous, productive [and i use that term loosely], basic science research departments.

you're very obviously not commenting from a very large wealth of knowledge, but i don't want to get into some sort of argument about it. the vast majority of residents in even the most competitive specialties have 1-5 publications. 1 publication looks decent (and in most cases, sufficient) on a residency application, a couple is impressive, and more than that is almost always either due to md/phd program or previous grad work. getting 1 paper in a rinky-dink journal based on a research project you conducted pretty autonomously while doing well in your MD curriculum is nothing to sneeze at. obviously md/phd is a different story.

but this is the attitude that is most damaging to rfus reputation. you don't know anything about the research going on here, why would you go out on a limb and impugn it so? just foolhardy, in my opinion. you'll notice i agreed the scale is probably very different at larger more research-driven universities, and im not trying to overinflate the school or make it out to be anything it's not. but there is plenty of good research going on here, and plenty of research opportunities for students.

 

[dilated]

for what its worth (not that we have big numbers or anything), but we do match into pretty impressive plastics programs too and we don't have a plastics department:
2004 - (1) Brown U.
2006 - (2) Univ. of Cinncinati & Stanford U.

Those aren't really the "top" programs. Any integrated plastics program is really impressive, but the general idea is that if you were a good enough candidate to match (say) Stanford without a plastics division, if you had the chairman of (one of the top plastics programs) UTSW going to bat for you, you might have gotten into Harvard. And if you wouldn't have gotten into any integrated program with no dept, maybe instead you get into Brown with high powered faculty behind you.

It's really all about institutional support. The guys I know that want plastics here, the plastic faculty, tops in their field, are ALREADY working with them to be ready for residency, get pubs, etc. It's really hard to compete with that. Anything is possible and a lot of big names went to low tier schools so it is possible, but in this game you've got to take every edge you can get.

That being said in the end you still have to perform, either way. A 200 from Harvard isn't getting you anywhere and a 260 from RFU still ought to get you where you need to be. And if you think you want to do IM or FP, then don't stress about it, but it's all about having options.

 

[soeagerun2or]

you're very obviously not commenting from a very large wealth of knowledge. the vast majority of residents in even the most competitive specialties have 1-5 publications.

The AAMC National Residency Match Program report lists statistics on people who are matched and unmatched. For competitive residencies of Anesthesia, Dermatology, and Plastic Surgery the number of people with >5 publications were 38%, 35%, and 35% respectively. Furthermore, in most fields there was no clear majority. More importantly though, the ratio of matched:unmatched was significantly higher for those with >5 publications meaning that the likelihood ratio of matching with >5 publications is greater than that of 0 or 1-5.

 

[deuist]

Anesthesiology is not as competitive as derm or plastics. The average Step I score is 216.

 

[Moniker]

The AAMC National Residency Match Program report lists statistics on people who are matched and unmatched. For competitive residencies of Anesthesia, Dermatology, and Plastic Surgery the number of people with >5 publications were 38%, 35%, and 35% respectively. Furthermore, in most fields there was no clear majority. More importantly though, the ratio of matched:unmatched was significantly higher for those with >5 publications meaning that the likelihood ratio of matching with >5 publications is greater than that of 0 or 1-5.

ok, since apparently this means ANYTHING, since we're all totally speculating on how many publications you can get at a low-tier school vs. high-tier.....from http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

Derm-80% of matched have at least 1 publication
-30 had none, 126 had 1-5 (52%), 83 had 5+

Anesthesia - (not that competitive, not sure why you listed it) - 47% of matched have at least 1 publication
- 475 had none (52%), 361 had 1-5 (40%), 65 had 5+

Plastics - 75% of matched had at least 1 publication
- 9 had none, 37 had 1-5 (52%), 24 had 5+

Ortho - 62% of matched had at least 1 publication
- 194 had none, 294 had 1-5 (53%), 71 had 5+

Rad Onc - 78% of matched had at least 1 publication
- 18 had none, 58 had 1-5 (50%), 40 had 5+

the take home message is that the majority of people who matched in the most competitive specialties DID have a publication, but most had 1-5. all i'm saying is that i know from experience there are ample opportunities to do this at rfu.

 

[soeagerun2or]

Look all I'm saying is we get things handed to us at big-name research schools. I signed up for summer research and they threw money at me. The investigators were thrilled to have someone to mentor and guide. I got things done at work so now I get to fly all over the country to present and to learn techniques from other groups.

Sure you can fight an up-hill battle at a tiny regionally recognized lowest tier school and match in the field you want where you want. But why waste the effort when you can have things handed to you? Blah blah, you like to have to work for things but friggen cure cancer or work in the free clinic instead of working against the system

 

[Navicular]

Look all I'm saying is we get things handed to us at big-name research schools. I signed up for summer research and they threw money at me. The investigators were thrilled to have someone to mentor and guide. I got things done at work so now I get to fly all over the country to present and to learn techniques from other groups.

Sure you can fight an up-hill battle at a tiny regionally recognized lowest tier school and match in the field you want where you want. But why waste the effort when you can have things handed to you? Blah blah, you like to have to work for things but friggen cure cancer or work in the free clinic instead of working against the system

 

[DarksideAllstar]

You would make a bigger difference in the community by attending a research institution and making a breakthrough that would save millions of lives. I don't think there is too much cutting edge research going on at Howard, Meharry, Mercer or RFU.

Guess what, dude? Not many people make those kinds of discoveries. Even the poor schlepp sitting in the lab working his ass off in his 2nd post-doc is wondering what the hell he is doing with his life. If your goal is to become a good clinician and serve your community, it really doesn't matter what med school you go to. Oh, and once (if) you actually make it to the end of med school, you'll realize you really learn medicine when you get to residency. Bottom line: for anyone who isn't MSTP it hardly makes a difference where you attend school. You can pretty much accomplish anything from any place if you work hard enough--and if you slack (even at Harvard), you could eventually screw yourself out of a residency that you want.

 

[Moniker]

Look all I'm saying is we get things handed to us at big-name research schools. I signed up for summer research and they threw money at me. The investigators were thrilled to have someone to mentor and guide. I got things done at work so now I get to fly all over the country to present and to learn techniques from other groups.

Sure you can fight an up-hill battle at a tiny regionally recognized lowest tier school and match in the field you want where you want. But why waste the effort when you can have things handed to you? Blah blah, you like to have to work for things but friggen cure cancer or work in the free clinic instead of working against the system

no i agree with you. i think for the most part youre right.

but people who do summer research fellowships at rfu get a few thousand in research grant stipend thrown at them too and theres plenty of spots to go around. there's lots of support for the various research programs that are in place, though i obviously am not trying to say were some leader in research. im trying to do here is let people know the truth (well, my perspective and experience) about research opportunities at rfu for medical students. i like my school and want to give some input. people can pm me if they have questions.

 

[Navicular]

Guess what, dude? Not many people make those kinds of discoveries. Even the poor schlepp sitting in the lab working his ass off in his 2nd post-doc is wondering what the hell he is doing with his life. If your goal is to become a good clinician and serve your community, it really doesn't matter what med school you go to. Oh, and once (if) you actually make it to the end of med school, you'll realize you really learn medicine when you get to residency. Bottom line: for anyone who isn't MSTP it hardly makes a difference where you attend school. You can pretty much accomplish anything from any place if you work hard.

I guess all those NIH dollars are being wasted then...

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I guess all those NIH dollars are being wasted then...

I think you're being naive if you seriously believe that all research ends up saving millions of people worldwide.

 

[Navicular]

I think you're being naive if you seriously believe that all research ends up saving millions of people worldwide.

Tell that to someone suffering from Alzheimer's or cancer.

 

[8744]

Jim Jones...anybody?...anybody?....Bueller?....Beuller?

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Tell that to someone suffering from Alzheimer's or cancer.

Have you ever actually spent a day in Neuro clinic? Please enlighten me of the great strides made in the treatment and prognosis for Alzheimers patients to this day. Just because we better understand the pathology of disease doesn't always imply that we can develop useful treatments from that knowledge and a lot of times these treatments have very unpleasant side effects which preclude a patient from actually receiving them or they do nothing to improve mortality rates. You wanna save the world? -- go vaccinate it and provide it with clean water.

And I find your assumption that a great majority of students at large academic centers end up in academics after residency or fellowship quite preposterous.

 

[8744]

Ah, I see you have drank deeply from the pitcher of Koolaid.

Ah hell, it means being so far gone into a cult that you'll drink the Koolaid, a la Jim Jones, if ordered to do so.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Jim Jones...anybody?...anybody?....Bueller?....Beuller?

Dude this guy's gonna save the world though!