Boy is this tough! SACKLER vs D.O.

[Skooled2much]

For those that chose Sackler M.D. over USA D.O.
1) did you make the right choice? why? how do you know?
2) what factors did you take into account?
3) do you feel that sackler opens more doors to competitive residency slots?
4) If you are currently enrolled... have you compared your current curriculum/training with your peers at osteopathic institutions?
5) besides zionism and cultural exposure, what are the pros of attending sackler

I'm so torn. I need a push in the right direction. If you have been where I am now, PLEASE HELP!!!
thanks!
- S2M

(d.o. programs are COMP and MSUCOM)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Macguyver83]

I believe I made the right choice, eventhough an MD is equivalent to DO; for my own sanity and snese of esteem I am happier with the DO. Also, I believe in private practice, MD is more inclinced towards bussiness; as more people know about MD versus DO. Plus for international medicine, MD is accredited, in some places DO are not (I think some countries in the commonwealth hold to this).

BY THE WAY, how on earth is Zionism a Pro? I guess you would consider Apartheid in South Africa a Pro..

For those that chose Sackler M.D. over USA D.O.
1) did you make the right choice? why? how do you know?
2) what factors did you take into account?
3) do you feel that sackler opens more doors to competitive residency slots?
4) If you are currently enrolled... have you compared your current curriculum/training with your peers at osteopathic institutions?
5) besides zionism and cultural exposure, what are the pros of attending sackler

I'm so torn. I need a push in the right direction. If you have been where I am now, PLEASE HELP!!!
thanks!
- S2M

(d.o. programs are COMP and MSUCOM)

 

[Skooled2much]

Thanks for your input. It's not that zionism is a pro for me. I simply don't want people to respond by saying that their love for israel is a top reason for attending sackler.

Again: I'm very curious as to how you (anybody) feel the Sackler education and preparation compares with a U.S.A. D.O. schools prep. And of course, whether or not residency selection (competitive or not) is influenced by the title of FMG or DO.
thanks!

I believe I made the right choice, eventhough an MD is equivalent to DO; for my own sanity and snese of esteem I am happier with the DO. Also, I believe in private practice, MD is more inclinced towards bussiness; as more people know about MD versus DO. Plus for international medicine, MD is accredited, in some places DO are not (I think some countries in the commonwealth hold to this).

BY THE WAY, how on earth is Zionism a Pro? I guess you would consider Apartheid in South Africa a Pro..

 

[Antiviral22]

I believe I made the right choice, eventhough an MD is equivalent to DO; for my own sanity and snese of esteem I am happier with the DO. Also, I believe in private practice, MD is more inclinced towards bussiness; as more people know about MD versus DO. Plus for international medicine, MD is accredited, in some places DO are not (I think some countries in the commonwealth hold to this).

BY THE WAY, how on earth is Zionism a Pro? I guess you would consider Apartheid in South Africa a Pro..

Macguyver ... your comment about Israel being an Apartheid is grossly inaccurate, and frankly not true. Nevertheless, comments like this have no place in a forum setup to discuss medical education. Perhaps you should chose your words more carefully next time.

 

[Skooled2much]

you guys are great. please DO NOT respond with ANY political reciprocity here. I am looking for answers to the THREAD QUESTIONS only.
cheers.

 

[Macguyver83]

you guys are great. please DO NOT respond with ANY political reciprocity here. I am looking for answers to the THREAD QUESTIONS only.
cheers.

Well unfortunately if you choose to goto Sackler, this is something you will never be able to avoid....going to school in a land that is illegally occupied will open the doors for criticism throughout your future life and unfortunately only allow you to work in high-density zionist areas (like New York ) if you choose to come back; unless you want primary care.

Good luck with your life, choose wisely...

 

[DPPM]

Well unfortunately if you choose to goto Sackler, this is something you will never be able to avoid....going to school in a land that is illegally occupied will open the doors for criticism throughout your future life and unfortunately only allow you to work in high-density zionist areas (like New York ) if you choose to come back;

Wow, that is possibly the most ignorant post I've read on this board. For one, Israeli grads work throughout the country in all kinds of specialties, from orthopedic surgery to radiology to primary care. As for your politics, I won't add a whole lot since this is not the general discussion forum (best to take your agenda over there), but you really should do some research before you make such foolish sweeping statements. Why even post if you don't have anything knowledgeable or productive to add?


Getting back to the OP's question: I've done a lot of research on both options, and from everything I've gathered, they are both very good options that will get you to where you want to be (maybe short of specializing in something like derm). I think it all boils down to the following questions:

--Are you comfortable living in a foreign country? Do you like learning about new languages/cultures? Or do you prefer to live close to home?

--Are you secure enough with yourself to be a little different (if you go DO)?

--Other variables, such as relatives, spouse, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Macguyver83]

Wow, that is possibly the most ignorant post I've read on this board. For one, Israeli grads work throughout the country in all kinds of specialties, from orthopedic surgery to radiology to primary care. As for your politics, I won't add a whole lot since this is not the general discussion forum (best to take your agenda over there), but you really should do some research before you make such foolish sweeping statements. Why even post if you don't have anything knowledgeable or productive to add?


Getting back to the OP's question: I've done a lot of research on both options, and from everything I've gathered, they are both very good options that will get you to where you want to be (maybe short of specializing in something like derm). I think it all boils down to the following questions:

--Are you comfortable living in a foreign country? Do you like learning about new languages/cultures? Or do you prefer to live close to home?

--Are you secure enough with yourself to be a little different (if you go DO)?

--Other variables, such as relatives, spouse, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

I would respectfully disagree, and say the most ignorant thing I have ever heard was that Isreal legally belonged where it is despite its violent and horrendous aquistion from the Palestinians.

Back to the OP; I think the school you have been accepted to, Michigan State; is a very well reputed D.O. school (your in Detroit, so it wouldnt be far from home etc..) and would be Tier 1 amongst D.O. schools.

When Matching, I think being a domestic graduate will make it easier to get into competitive residencies......and D.O's enjoin in this ; where as with FMGs you will need slightly more initiative, zionist connections etc...

I heard that in California, you could change your D.O. lisence to an M.D. ( I dont know if this is still the case or if its subtantiated by any proof)...but I wouldnt be suprise if D.O and M.D. converge and amalgamate in our life time.

who knows, hopefully you will be the first Surgeon General D.O and make this possible

 

[punchberry]

It's not that zionism is a pro for me. I simply don't want people to respond by saying that their love for israel is a top reason for attending sackler.

If you don't think that living in Israel is a pro, you will not be happy at Sackler.

 

[leorl]

Please, let's focus on the attributes of the medical curriculum of the school(s) in question and try to leave the politics of locale/etc. out of it. Religious/political connections are not pre-requisite for entering a US health profession.

 

[Skooled2much]

leorl,
i love you.

Please, let's focus on the attributes of the medical curriculum of the school(s) in question and try to leave the politics of locale/etc. out of it. Religious/political connections are not pre-requisite for entering a US health profession.

 

[Skooled2much]

in keeping up with the post...
I recently met with the chief resident (radiology) at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. He said D.O. all the way because they match much more successfully than FMG. He said "that's just the way it works... we rank (and he is on the selection board) MDs then DOs then FMGs with american citizenship, then FMGs without citizenship."
My counter point was the impressive match list track record from Sackler to n.y. hospitals.
We concluded that while Sackler holds a good rep in NYC, they remain a typical Foriegn med school everywhere else and thier graduating students will likely face serious scrutiny (more so than a US DO) during match.

Any comments here?

 

[Macguyver83]

in keeping up with the post...
I recently met with the chief resident (radiology) at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. He said D.O. all the way because they match much more successfully than FMG. He said "that's just the way it works... we rank (and he is on the selection board) MDs then DOs then FMGs with american citizenship, then FMGs without citizenship."
My counter point was the impressive match list track record from Sackler to n.y. hospitals.
We concluded that while Sackler holds a good rep in NYC, they remain a typical Foriegn med school everywhere else and thier graduating students will likely face serious scrutiny (more so than a US DO) during match.

Any comments here?

Thanks for making my point...they match well in NYC....NYC also has a very influencial and conentrated population of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

[topspin]

Thanks for making my point...they match well in NYC....NYC also has a very influencial and conentrated population of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

One of the primary reasons Sackler grads match well in New York is that a preponderance of its students come from the NY metro area, do rotations there, make contacts there and want to settle there. The school's reputation is well earned because its graduates are successful and success breeds success. No teaching hospital of repute would repeatedly invite back a new crop of underperforming doctors. Please refrain from any thinly veiled anti-semitic posts.

 

[Skooled2much]

hey topspin -
what's your story? .. are you a sackler grad? student?
I couldn't agree more with what you've said about sackler's nyc reputation. and it's true, iv leagues regularly invite back sackler students to rotate and complete residencies. but i have another friend who suggested that i will have to do twice as well on the boards as an FMG than as a DO to get the same slots...
your comments?

One of the primary reasons Sackler grads match well in New York is that a preponderance of its students come from the NY metro area, do rotations there, make contacts there and want to settle there. The school's reputation is well earned because its graduates are successful and success breeds success. No teaching hospital of repute would repeatedly invite back a new crop of underperforming doctors. Please refrain from any thinly veiled anti-semitic posts.

 

[DocEG]

Here is my thought process on the whole Sackler vs. applying D.O.-

When it comes to residencies both schools probably place students into strong programs and even some amazing ones as well. I know that from this year and last year's match, Sacklers got into fields like radiology, orthopedic surgery, and gas, at hospitals in Harvard, Yale, Albert Einstein, UCLA, UCI (search the forum to find a complete list of last year's results). I'm not saying everyone matches at an Ivy league, but that going to Sackler wont keep you out of one either. Also, the sad fact is, is that for every Program Director who wont accept FMGs there is another one who thinks that DOs are quacks; its ignorant, unfair, and short-sighted, but that’s the way life is. On the whole there probably isn't any great advantage, numbers wise, to going to one school over another.

For me, it all came down to happiness. Not only was I going to spend four years at this institution but my happiness would directly affect where I would match for residency, regardless of my school’s stats (Happy student = motivated student = good clinical recommendation letters = good residency). Once I put it in terms of where I would be happiest, the decision was easy. I personally don’t subscribe to Osteopathic theory so I knew that I would end up resenting having to take OMM classes, study for the comlex AND usmle, and in general putting up with learning a philosophy that I probably would never use in my own practice. Attending a DO school would be unfair to me and to my fellow students. On the other hand, coming to Sackler offered me an adventure and a once in a life time opportunity which I couldn’t pass up. For all of the lip-service we pay to multiculturalism, there is nothing quite like actually spending a few years living in another country to broaden your horizons and open your mind up to another way of life. Of course, there have been drawbacks; the heat, the distance from home, and the lack of organization. But all these things have taught me to be more flexible, independent, tolerant, and ultimately, I hope, a better doctor.

In the end this is just a very long-winded way of saying that you need to seriously look at what would make YOU happy, that is something that no brochure, residency match list, or well-meaning med student can tell you.

If you have any specific questions about life here or any other question about the school, feel free to PM me.

 

[berry]

Thanks for making my point...they match well in NYC....NYC also has a very influencial and conentrated population of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sackler is endorsed/affiliated with the New York State Board of Regents, which is why there are a lot of people that end up doing residencies in New York City at some of the most prestigious residency programs in the country. Since I have the match list in front of me I can also tell you that many grads also get residencies in LA, as well as random places all over the country. It makes me sad that in 2006 someone clearly educated enough to go to medical school is still so ignorant in regards to the Jewish population. Even after 5 people asked Macguyver to stop his blatant anti-semetic comments lets see if we can fill in the blanks! It's people like you that make me so proud to go to medical school in Israel.

Anyway, I personally would love to live in NYC or LA during residencies, and since I'm from Michigan and many hospitals here are basically bankrupt I never had any intention of staying here to do my residency.
But it is true that if you have never been to Israel before or spent time there then transitioning to medical school AND Israel might be really tough. But it's a great place so it's really up to your personal preferance of where you want to be, East Lansing or Israel. I love it but I just spent 3 months there and it was the most amazing 3 months of my life. But just be wary that everyone is going to tell you their personal opinion, that Henry Ford doc. may not have all the facts, my father's resident at Beaumont is from Sackler and moved to Mass. for a fellowship at Harvard in GI. So every person has a different perspective on the DO vs. Sackler it basically just comes down to you're going to be working your ass off regardless of where you are. Do you want to be with palm trees or East Lansing? Do you have ties to Israel at all? Good Luck.

 

[Skooled2much]

Berry, Doc, tops.
thank you all so much... you've really offered me a plethora of information and insight from which i've made my decision - Wanted you all to know that i've decided to attend sackler!
for whatever it's worth, in the end, my decision had little to do with D.O. vs. MD. .. I firmly believe that both philosophies produce physicians of equal competence from student bodies of similar variability. It also appears that given the choice, both degrees (DO vs FMD) will offer comparable match slots.
As you've all echoed, it's really a matter of where you want to live, what experience one wants to have.
I'm really lookin' forward to gettin' out there and beginning my career - thanks again!
should you feel compelled to offer any additional advice, suggestions, concerns... i'd be pleased to listen. (except political comments)
also - if people want to keep the debate of this thread going... by all means, enjoy.
later ..
- s2m

 

[student-2]

Sackler is a good way to go!

Berry, Doc, tops.
thank you all so much... you've really offered me a plethora of information and insight from which i've made my decision - Wanted you all to know that i've decided to attend sackler!
for whatever it's worth, in the end, my decision had little to do with D.O. vs. MD. .. I firmly believe that both philosophies produce physicians of equal competence from student bodies of similar variability. It also appears that given the choice, both degrees (DO vs FMD) will offer comparable match slots.
As you've all echoed, it's really a matter of where you want to live, what experience one wants to have.
I'm really lookin' forward to gettin' out there and beginning my career - thanks again!
should you feel compelled to offer any additional advice, suggestions, concerns... i'd be pleased to listen. (except political comments)
also - if people want to keep the debate of this thread going... by all means, enjoy.
later ..
- s2m

 

[Dr.Wolkower]

Sackler is a good way to go!

DO school=

almost like MD school with no hassles


Sackler


Great cultural one in a lifetime experience

Great school you will get back in the USA

l

 

[spreebee]

Well unfortunately if you choose to goto Sackler, this is something you will never be able to avoid....going to school in a land that is illegally occupied will open the doors for criticism throughout your future life and unfortunately only allow you to work in high-density zionist areas (like New York ) if you choose to come back; unless you want primary care.

Good luck with your life, choose wisely...

Your post is radical BS... Were you around 45,000 years ago? The Israeli/Palestinians have been flip flopping control for years even though the Israelis were there first (today's Israel). Heck, the Israeli's were there before Islam was born... Before you go to medschool, go back to Sunday School...

 

[DrWBK]

I'm going to just repost something I put in a different thread... kind of gives you an idea of Sackler and life after Sackler. As for your question, Sackler (MD) vs DO... bottom line is where and what you want to practice. If you're looking for primary care (ie: outpatient medicine, family medicine, peds, etc), DO is probably as good, but if you want a subspecialty or more competitive specialty, there is no doubt you'll have a more difficult time getting a residency as a DO. Some residency programs don't even consider DO's. Now, of course there are exceptions - I have worked with an ER doc who is a DO - but they are rare.

Here's my post from before:

I graduated from Sackler in 2003 - I'll give you all my opinion of the school and my experience there, but if you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them later...

Sackler is an American program based in Tel Aviv - basically it is like any other medical school: first 2 years of basic classroom work with about 1/2 day per week of clinical exposure. The 3rd year is also similar, in which you do the basic clinical rotations in Israeli hospitals. During the 4th year, you spend the first half doing electives anywhere in the US you want and interview for residency. The last half of 4th yar is back in Tel Aviv where you tie up any lose ends and do some electives.

Overall, I have to say that my experience in Israel was amazing! I truly feel that I received an excellent education and was well prepared for residency (with the exception of some small administrative issues that took no longer than 1-2 weeks to figure out). Not only was my education on par (or beyond) my counterparts in the US, but I had a great time during medical school - living in another county teaches you so much more about life and the rest of the world than you'd ever imagine. Additionally, during my 3 1/2 years there, I traveled all around Europe, Jordan, went skiing in France, scuba diving in the sinai, and did a ton of backpacking and camping in Israel.

Now let's face it... there are two purposes to medical school - education and getting into a residency. The education at Sackler is great - teaching is as good as any I've had in the US (and you don't need to know Hebrew for 3rd or 4th years - it helps, but not manditory - I didn't know Hebrew and did fine). Now getting into a residency... I'm not going to lie... that is a little harder. If you do well in med school and on the boards (and you're a normal person), you'll get a good residency. From my class, we had people go to Northwestern, Mount Sinai, NYU, Cornel, Sedar Sinai, Minnesota, and I went to University of Colorado for Internal Medicine. Now, if you want to get into a top ranked residency (ie: Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins), this is probably not the place for you. While you can get into ortho, ophtho, and derm from Sackler (we had a few from my class), it is harder than coming from a US program.

As for me, I did very well on my boards, recently graduated from the University of Colorado Internal Medicine program, am currently working as a hospitalist in Denver, and am applying for a GI fellowship.

I'll quit rambling now... overall, I wouldn't trade my education or experience at Sackler for anything. Going to school in Israel and living in a foreign country isn't for everybody, but it definitly worked for me. If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them... good luck!

 

[spreebee]

Is there any specific advantages for going to Sackler vs. going to St. George, Ross, or AUC?

 

[jackbnimble]

BY THE WAY, how on earth is Zionism a Pro? I guess you would consider Apartheid in South Africa a Pro..

I find your response offensive and underhanded. In keeping with your political tones, where else in the Middle East are minority people democratically represented?

Jackb

 

[Taus]

I'm going to just repost something I put in a different thread... kind of gives you an idea of Sackler and life after Sackler. As for your question, Sackler (MD) vs DO... bottom line is where and what you want to practice. If you're looking for primary care (ie: outpatient medicine, family medicine, peds, etc), DO is probably as good, but if you want a subspecialty or more competitive specialty, there is no doubt you'll have a more difficult time getting a residency as a DO. Some residency programs don't even consider DO's. Now, of course there are exceptions - I have worked with an ER doc who is a DO - but they are rare.

I don't want to get into an argument...but take a look at the REAL facts:
From my DO school alone here are the match stats from last year:
Also, keep in mind that on top of MD matches, there are separate residency programs that are open to DO's only and include all of the most competative sub-specialties.

From PCOM in 2006
11 Anesthesiology
9 General Surgery
17 Emergency Medicine (alittle different from what you stated...and this is only from one single DO school out of 25 or so)
4 Opthomology
6 Orthopedic Surgery
1 ENT
2 Urology
2 Radiology
8 Ob/gyn
1 Meds/peds
1 EM/IM

If you do a quick search in the DO forums on the main page you will find the match lists of several DO schools

**PLEASE....I in no way intend to say anything negative about Sackler and I know that it is a solid school....just pointing out some misinformation in the above thread

 

[Pansit]

I'm going to just repost something I put in a different thread... kind of gives you an idea of Sackler and life after Sackler. As for your question, Sackler (MD) vs DO... bottom line is where and what you want to practice. If you're looking for primary care (ie: outpatient medicine, family medicine, peds, etc), DO is probably as good, but if you want a subspecialty or more competitive specialty, there is no doubt you'll have a more difficult time getting a residency as a DO. Some residency programs don't even consider DO's. Now, of course there are exceptions - I have worked with an ER doc who is a DO - but they are rare.

Here's my post from before:

I graduated from Sackler in 2003 - I'll give you all my opinion of the school and my experience there, but if you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them later...

Sackler is an American program based in Tel Aviv - basically it is like any other medical school: first 2 years of basic classroom work with about 1/2 day per week of clinical exposure. The 3rd year is also similar, in which you do the basic clinical rotations in Israeli hospitals. During the 4th year, you spend the first half doing electives anywhere in the US you want and interview for residency. The last half of 4th yar is back in Tel Aviv where you tie up any lose ends and do some electives.

Overall, I have to say that my experience in Israel was amazing! I truly feel that I received an excellent education and was well prepared for residency (with the exception of some small administrative issues that took no longer than 1-2 weeks to figure out). Not only was my education on par (or beyond) my counterparts in the US, but I had a great time during medical school - living in another county teaches you so much more about life and the rest of the world than you'd ever imagine. Additionally, during my 3 1/2 years there, I traveled all around Europe, Jordan, went skiing in France, scuba diving in the sinai, and did a ton of backpacking and camping in Israel.

Now let's face it... there are two purposes to medical school - education and getting into a residency. The education at Sackler is great - teaching is as good as any I've had in the US (and you don't need to know Hebrew for 3rd or 4th years - it helps, but not manditory - I didn't know Hebrew and did fine). Now getting into a residency... I'm not going to lie... that is a little harder. If you do well in med school and on the boards (and you're a normal person), you'll get a good residency. From my class, we had people go to Northwestern, Mount Sinai, NYU, Cornel, Sedar Sinai, Minnesota, and I went to University of Colorado for Internal Medicine. Now, if you want to get into a top ranked residency (ie: Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins), this is probably not the place for you. While you can get into ortho, ophtho, and derm from Sackler (we had a few from my class), it is harder than coming from a US program.

As for me, I did very well on my boards, recently graduated from the University of Colorado Internal Medicine program, am currently working as a hospitalist in Denver, and am applying for a GI fellowship.

I'll quit rambling now... overall, I wouldn't trade my education or experience at Sackler for anything. Going to school in Israel and living in a foreign country isn't for everybody, but it definitly worked for me. If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them... good luck!

I think ER doc's are highly represented by DO's in relation to their population. I dont think it's any harder for an FMG to specialize than a DO...there is a large misconception that DO's only do primary care...DMU had 7 go into orthopaedic surgery alone last year...and numerous other specialities, aside from what Taus had at his school

Des Moines University's 2006 Match List, (number of people listed as matching in that specialty)

1 - radiation oncology
1 - neurosurgery
3 - oto-facial plastic surgery
4 - diagnostic radiology
5 - PM & R
7 - orthopedic surgery
8 - anesthesiology

add in the 5 general surgery matches (1 to Johns Hopkins, 1 to Mayo in MN. ) - and there were 16 surgical matches alone. Class size of 180.

Okay - that's ONE DO school's list, from one year. Take a look at some other's some time, like PCOM's, CCOM's, NYCOM's.

 

[josephf1]

I am currently a Sacker student.
1) All this anti Israel stuff, right or wrong, is ignorant. I am sitting in israel's larget hospital right now and half of the ward patients are arabs from palestinian territories NOT from israel. We treat them all, even known terrorists, they all come here for treatment, they might grow up one day and blow us up, but we treat them all, that is the truth, so deal, israel is the most humane country in that sense possible, you wont see that in too may arab countries.
2) American MD = #1, all else = #2, there is no way to rank Sackler, DO, Technion, St George, it just isnt possible. Students in my class have 40 MCAT and 270 USMLE and some have 21 MCAT and 185 USMLE, so go figure, the ones that do the best match the best. Not as impressive as these DO lists I saw though, mostly IM and PEDS and PSYCH and OBGYN, NOT the very competitive stuff
3) Sackler is cheap, Tel Aviv has great weather, and the level of studies is very very high.
4) the political situation here could change at any minute with the threat of missle attacks on population centers a very real risk at any time, so its much much much safer in Des moines or whereever
5) sackler is med school + international experience, also a bit more interetsting than middle america
so in all, decide wisely, sackler aint for everyone, but neither is johns hopkins, and both produce successful doctors and they all get paid and sued the same, even the DOs!

 

[leahsh]

I'm looking for Israeli psychometry preparation book in English. I'll appreciate any help.
Thanks.