Bruh, auditions are tough.

[thumbz]

Having not read the whole thread but rather skimmed it, one little pearl I'll drop for people doing auditions is the walking on eggshells thing is so true. Lets say you work with 4 attendings over your month - if you don't mix with just one of those attendings that can be enough to sink you off the rank list. We are all so worried about "picking a bad one" that we take any criticism incredibly seriously during rank meetings.

I'm 100% on the "auditions hurt more than they help for 80% of applicants" train.

What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.

I wanted to pull this post out because this is just so, so, so true. MD rotations tend to be more academic so there is less opportunity to slack - when you're paired with a intern on a ton of your rotations it's harder to hide from work. For DO's we do more preceptor based rotations and if you really don't want to be there, as a preceptor, I probably don't really want you there. So I'll give you a chill schedule, 0 education, and a mediocre eval.

Then one day the chickens come home to roost and you realize the two years you spent "learning clinical medicine" were actually spent "learning to avoid work" and suddenly you walk onto the struggle bus, set up shop in the back somewhere, and have one hell of a bumpy intern year ride.

I have the opportunity to have both DO students from a newer branch campus school and from a top 20 MD school rotate on my service. The MD students absolutely tend to be stronger, but I have had a handful of the DO's outshine their MD counterparts. And when I get a brand new MS3 DO and MS3 MD they are very close in their skill levels. Once we get to the end of 3rd year I can see the weakness in the DO students prior clinical experiences compared to their MD counterparts (think basic things like not knowing how to present on rounds, not knowing how to write notes, etc).

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[qwertythrowaway]

What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.

yeah the key is top 20 MD schools. i have some friends at top 10 schools and they talk a big game (some of that might just be med student arrogance) but i would vouch their rotations are consistently stronger than ours. little quality control on rotation sites at my school. students are also not the best judges of rotation quality and overestimate what they are actually doing on a rotation (how many times have you heard a student say "oh yeah i did a x surgery today", when really they were in the OR, not scrubbed in, craning to get a view from 6 feet away)... same goes for Sub-Is/any rotation. if you're worried you aren't doing enough, thats a good sign. plenty of time to improve, learn, and close any perceived gap in ability before intern year starts.

 

[ERK123]

Having not read the whole thread but rather skimmed it, one little pearl I'll drop for people doing auditions is the walking on eggshells thing is so true. Lets say you work with 4 attendings over your month - if you don't mix with just one of those attendings that can be enough to sink you off the rank list. We are all so worried about "picking a bad one" that we take any criticism incredibly seriously during rank meetings.

I'm 100% on the "auditions hurt more than they help for 80% of applicants" train.



I wanted to pull this post out because this is just so, so, so true. MD rotations tend to be more academic so there is less opportunity to slack - when you're paired with a intern on a ton of your rotations it's harder to hide from work. For DO's we do more preceptor based rotations and if you really don't want to be there, as a preceptor, I probably don't really want you there. So I'll give you a chill schedule, 0 education, and a mediocre eval.

Then one day the chickens come home to roost and you realize the two years you spent "learning clinical medicine" were actually spent "learning to avoid work" and suddenly you walk onto the struggle bus, set up shop in the back somewhere, and have one hell of a bumpy intern year ride.
.[/B]

I went to a DO school and I do not have a single preceptor based rotation during my third year. I am not sure how universal this is for people at other schools, but at least for our students we mostly do our core rotations at teaching hospitals and alongside MD students from other schools. I don’t think there is a whole lot of difference between us either other than the occasional terrible or exceptional student. I did a couple of preceptor based elective rotations during my 4th year and they were extremely relaxed, which is mostly what I was looking for. I could not really imagine having such a chill rotation for a core rotation.

 

[Chibucks15]

Honestly I think it’s more personality and insight than 100% training. Yes there are some new DO students that are garbage because they’ve never trained for presentations, etc. but it really isn’t that hard to pick up what’s important (Cuz you hear the residents say the same stuff over and over) and what to know but only volunteer if the attending asks. I’m at a big sub I right now and the third year MD student I’m with (who is halfway through their third year by now cuz different scheduling) and they are literally regurgitating the entire chart. If we’re on a neuro rotation, a stroke service no less, we really don’t care about the patients chronic shoulder pain.

It’s way too generalized to say that all MD students are better on wards when that same third year has at least 3 meetings a week that take the entire afternoon. Maybe they’re just leaving after but they disappear after like 2

 

[thumbz]

I went to a DO school and I do not have a single preceptor based rotation during my third year. I am not sure how universal this is for people at other schools, but at least for our students we mostly do our core rotations at teaching hospitals and alongside MD students from other schools. I don’t think there is a whole lot of difference between us either other than the occasional terrible or exceptional student. I did a couple of preceptor based elective rotations during my 4th year and they were extremely relaxed, which is mostly what I was looking for. I could not really imagine having such a chill rotation for a core rotation.

What school do you go to? Because every future DO student should go here. I went to AZCOM and we were 80%-90% preceptor based.

 

[ERK123]

What school do you go to? Because every future DO student should go here. I went to AZCOM and we were 80%-90% preceptor based.

I went to a school in the Northeast. As solid as our core rotations were when I was a 3rd year a couple of years ago, I have little confidence this will continue in the future as more and more hospitals become acquired by those already associated with MD schools.

 

[manwelio]

Sick of the game y’all... Tired of pissing contests and walking on eggshells. Tired of constantly worrying about how I’m being judged and perceived. Coming to the end of my first audition and I’m definitely moving into the “screw it, I’m going to act like myself and if you don’t like me then whatever.”

Don’t want to get too specific because what if someone reads this from my program (again, MF eggshells), but I’m sick of people trying to act like I’m headed for a terrible life because of the field I want. Sorry you hate yourself pal, but we aren’t the same people and not everyone here is going to end up divorced and miserable.

So to be the bearer of bad news, this is what every industry and job is like. The difference is that medicine is self-preservative for those who make it far enough. Seek out those on this board who have talked about oversaturation issues in other fields. Medical physicians are not oversaturated. You don't know a dozen out-of-work doctors like you might know out-of-work lawyers, teachers, journalists, and academics. Imagine walking on eggshells in careers outside of medicine where you are not actually valued because there are 500 more of you waiting in the wings and what you're doing isn't viewed as particularly important. You're in a position where what you're doing matters, and that's why it's difficult. So suck it up.

 

[Chibucks15]

So to be the bearer of bad news, this is what every industry and job is like. The difference is that medicine is self-preservative for those who make it far enough. Seek out those on this board who have talked about oversaturation issues in other fields. Medical physicians are not oversaturated. You don't know a dozen out-of-work doctors like you might know out-of-work lawyers, teachers, journalists, and academics. Imagine walking on eggshells in careers outside of medicine where you are not actually valued because there are 500 more of you waiting in the wings and what you're doing isn't viewed as particularly important. You're in a position where what you're doing matters, and that's why it's difficult. So suck it up.

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets overlooked. There really isn’t THAT much different nonsense you have to deal with in medicine that you don’t have to deal with other places. It may present differently but every job has crap that’s annoying to deal with. People don’t ever understand that cuz most haven’t done anything job wise other than school or scribing.

The biggest difference and pain in the butt is that it takes so much longer to reach the end of this. Sure the 1 in 1000 person with the Cush job straight of undergrad makes you feel like the grass is greener but there’s a ton more working their butts off for 50k in jobs they hate

 

[manwelio]

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets overlooked. There really isn’t THAT much different nonsense you have to deal with in medicine that you don’t have to deal with other places. It may present differently but every job has crap that’s annoying to deal with. People don’t ever understand that cuz most haven’t done anything job wise other than school or scribing.

The biggest difference and pain in the butt is that it takes so much longer to reach the end of this. Sure the 1 in 1000 person with the Cush job straight of undergrad makes you feel like the grass is greener but there’s a ton more working their butts off for 50k in jobs they hate

I'm one of them! I really understand the struggle the OP is going through because I've already had this problem with two different careers. But then I also know better than the OP to say, "Deal with it. You're in a better place."

The difference, like @Chibucks points out above, is that most people end up in jobs that pay the bills rather than jobs that fulfill them, and you go through the same crap with colleagues, leadership, and gatekeeping, only with much less financial reward and fewer opportunities to advance. Let's face it, most workers in America are highly replaceable. You work a $50K job in a city, there are 500 more men and women who could apply at any moment thinking they're qualified. And your employers know it. You're not special. You're not a find. Just look at a LinkedIn job ad: "287 applicants" since it posted yesterday. And then keep in mind that most companies prefer to hire 60% or more of staff by referral. So you're sending resumes at a brick wall, no matter your qualifications. You want to work at Google? Do you know someone who works at Google? Do they care about you enough to stick a neck out? That's what matters in the real world.

My epiphany came last year when I just realized I'm wasting my life and potential, and it's eating me from the inside out. I turned my back on what I wanted to do when I was a kid out of fear of failure and pursued goals that seemed easier to obtain at the time. Little did I know this easy route was much harder. Now that I know that the grass is burnt on either side of the fence, I'd rather choose the side of the fence where I feel like I'm doing something worth my time rather than not.

 

[Osteosaur]

Having not read the whole thread but rather skimmed it, one little pearl I'll drop for people doing auditions is the walking on eggshells thing is so true. Lets say you work with 4 attendings over your month - if you don't mix with just one of those attendings that can be enough to sink you off the rank list. We are all so worried about "picking a bad one" that we take any criticism incredibly seriously during rank meetings.

I'm 100% on the "auditions hurt more than they help for 80% of applicants" train.



I wanted to pull this post out because this is just so, so, so true. MD rotations tend to be more academic so there is less opportunity to slack - when you're paired with a intern on a ton of your rotations it's harder to hide from work. For DO's we do more preceptor based rotations and if you really don't want to be there, as a preceptor, I probably don't really want you there. So I'll give you a chill schedule, 0 education, and a mediocre eval.

Then one day the chickens come home to roost and you realize the two years you spent "learning clinical medicine" were actually spent "learning to avoid work" and suddenly you walk onto the struggle bus, set up shop in the back somewhere, and have one hell of a bumpy intern year ride.

I have the opportunity to have both DO students from a newer branch campus school and from a top 20 MD school rotate on my service. The MD students absolutely tend to be stronger, but I have had a handful of the DO's outshine their MD counterparts. And when I get a brand new MS3 DO and MS3 MD they are very close in their skill levels. Once we get to the end of 3rd year I can see the weakness in the DO students prior clinical experiences compared to their MD counterparts (think basic things like not knowing how to present on rounds, not knowing how to write notes, etc).

What do you think makes DO students weaker?

I would have thought that since DO schools just accept poorer students maybe their preclinical education is worse, but the way you describe it the footing is even there.

Is it just a matter of DO students being given rotations with "whoever wants to take them", whereas MD students get a very rigorous and structured curriculum at an associated hospital?

How do you know if your rotation is 'good quality' while its going on? Like in my case I felt like durnig IM it was good. I got to see 2-3 patients, present to a resident and got critique, then got to present to the attending. It seemed good. How would I know if its a deficient experience?

 

[Chibucks15]

What do you think makes DO students weaker?

I would have thought that since DO schools just accept poorer students maybe their preclinical education is worse, but the way you describe it the footing is even there.

Is it just a matter of DO students being given rotations with "whoever wants to take them", whereas MD students get a very rigorous and structured curriculum at an associated hospital?

How do you know if your rotation is 'good quality' while its going on? Like in my case I felt like durnig IM it was good. I got to see 2-3 patients, present to a resident and got critique, then got to present to the attending. It seemed good. How would I know if its a deficient experience?

That's fine. Don't overthink it. Basically its just very evident to see who's worked with residents and a program at a larger hospital and who ended up just in clinics and such. Its largely overblown and the presentation/notes skill really isn't that difficult to pick up if you just pay attention and mirror what the residents say/do

 

[CocoMelon0531]

What do you think makes DO students weaker?

I would have thought that since DO schools just accept poorer students maybe their preclinical education is worse, but the way you describe it the footing is even there.

Is it just a matter of DO students being given rotations with "whoever wants to take them", whereas MD students get a very rigorous and structured curriculum at an associated hospital?

How do you know if your rotation is 'good quality' while its going on? Like in my case I felt like durnig IM it was good. I got to see 2-3 patients, present to a resident and got critique, then got to present to the attending. It seemed good. How would I know if its a deficient experience?

Poor clinical rotations, lack of structure, and lack of teachings from specialists.

How many 4th yr DO students can interpret the #s written on a LHC or RHC report besides reading the impression?

How many 4th yr DO students can independently interpret an EKG report in term of rate/rhythm/origin of P wave/axis deviation/hypertrophy/ischemia and tie it to the clinical picture?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a beside U/S to r/o pulmonary edema?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a parasternal short/long/apical view to r/o cardiac tamponade?

How many 4th yr DO students can use the U/S probe to look at the IVC to r/o fluid dry or overload status?

How many 4th yr DO students even deal with liver dx pts, from beginning to end?

How many 4th yr DO students can read a CXR in the ABC method?

These are some stuff off my head, in which rotating students at my institutions are taught. I'm sure that there are more. Due to the clinical teachings here, any students who stay awake can pump out 240+ on their Step 2 easily.

Patient presentation is the minimal standard that has been mastered by 3rd yr MD students by Xmas. Sorry, not hating on DO students and am a DO myself. Just feel bad for you guys in general now that I'm on the other side of things.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Having not read the whole thread but rather skimmed it, one little pearl I'll drop for people doing auditions is the walking on eggshells thing is so true. Lets say you work with 4 attendings over your month - if you don't mix with just one of those attendings that can be enough to sink you off the rank list. We are all so worried about "picking a bad one" that we take any criticism incredibly seriously during rank meetings.

I'm 100% on the "auditions hurt more than they help for 80% of applicants" train.



I wanted to pull this post out because this is just so, so, so true. MD rotations tend to be more academic so there is less opportunity to slack - when you're paired with a intern on a ton of your rotations it's harder to hide from work. For DO's we do more preceptor based rotations and if you really don't want to be there, as a preceptor, I probably don't really want you there. So I'll give you a chill schedule, 0 education, and a mediocre eval.

Then one day the chickens come home to roost and you realize the two years you spent "learning clinical medicine" were actually spent "learning to avoid work" and suddenly you walk onto the struggle bus, set up shop in the back somewhere, and have one hell of a bumpy intern year ride.

I have the opportunity to have both DO students from a newer branch campus school and from a top 20 MD school rotate on my service. The MD students absolutely tend to be stronger, but I have had a handful of the DO's outshine their MD counterparts. And when I get a brand new MS3 DO and MS3 MD they are very close in their skill levels. Once we get to the end of 3rd year I can see the weakness in the DO students prior clinical experiences compared to their MD counterparts (think basic things like not knowing how to present on rounds, not knowing how to write notes, etc).

Luckily, COCA now mandates that all students have atleast one rotation with a resident, where they do the exact things you pointed out and “can’t” hide from work. I know my school requires it from every student and it’s good thing imo. I am doing atleast 2 such rotations 3rd year myself.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Also, in a lot of IM rotations for DO students, a lot of you are misinterpreting seeing 2-3 pts in which plans are already made for you, and all you have to do in update the team lab values in the morning, and write progress notes for them. That's not seeing 2-3 pts.

I'm talking about seeing min 2 pts fresh from the ED, chart review them yourself, see the pts yourself independently, and then make up a solid A/P with 6-8+ problems with 2-3 ddx, and your succinct plan for each. I don't expect you to do this well during your third year, but that's the standard in your 4th yr.

 

[thumbz]

Poor clinical rotations, lack of structure, and lack of teachings from specialists.

How many 4th yr DO students can interpret the #s written on a LHC or RHC report besides reading the impression?

How many 4th yr DO students can independently interpret an EKG report in term of rate/rhythm/origin of P wave/axis deviation/hypertrophy/ischemia and tie it to the clinical picture?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a beside U/S to r/o pulmonary edema?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a parasternal short/long/apical view to r/o cardiac tamponade?

How many 4th yr DO students can use the U/S probe to look at the IVC to r/o fluid dry or overload status?

How many 4th yr DO students even deal with liver dx pts, from beginning to end?

How many 4th yr DO students can read a CXR in the ABC method?

These are some stuff off my head, in which rotating students at my institutions are taught. I'm sure that there are more. Due to the clinical teachings here, any students who stay awake can pump out 240+ on their Step 2 easily.

Patient presentation is the minimal standard that has been mastered by 3rd yr MD students by Xmas. Sorry, not hating on DO students and am a DO myself. Just feel bad for you guys in general now that I'm on the other side of things.

To be fair, less than 20% of attending physicians could do these...

 

[Chibucks15]

Poor clinical rotations, lack of structure, and lack of teachings from specialists.

How many 4th yr DO students can interpret the #s written on a LHC or RHC report besides reading the impression?

How many 4th yr DO students can independently interpret an EKG report in term of rate/rhythm/origin of P wave/axis deviation/hypertrophy/ischemia and tie it to the clinical picture?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a beside U/S to r/o pulmonary edema?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a parasternal short/long/apical view to r/o cardiac tamponade?

How many 4th yr DO students can use the U/S probe to look at the IVC to r/o fluid dry or overload status?

How many 4th yr DO students even deal with liver dx pts, from beginning to end?

How many 4th yr DO students can read a CXR in the ABC method?

These are some stuff off my head, in which rotating students at my institutions are taught. I'm sure that there are more. Due to the clinical teachings here, any students who stay awake can pump out 240+ on their Step 2 easily.

Patient presentation is the minimal standard that has been mastered by 3rd yr MD students by Xmas. Sorry, not hating on DO students and am a DO myself. Just feel bad for you guys in general now that I'm on the other side of things.

How many 4th year MD students can do this...I mean cmon now this is delusional

 

[DO2015CA]

To be fair, less than 20% of attending physicians could do these...

Ya it all depends on the specialty too.

 

[DO2015CA]

How many 4th year MD students can do this...I mean cmon now this is delusional

Absolutely. Sure they know what they look like, but no way they could do this by themselves.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How many 4th year MD students can do this...I mean cmon now this is delusional

3 of those "criteria" are just U/S techniques lol

 

[FalconSlice]

When did this become a MD vs. DO pissing contest?

 

[diesel2202]

What do you think makes DO students weaker?

I would have thought that since DO schools just accept poorer students maybe their preclinical education is worse, but the way you describe it the footing is even there.

Is it just a matter of DO students being given rotations with "whoever wants to take them", whereas MD students get a very rigorous and structured curriculum at an associated hospital?

How do you know if your rotation is 'good quality' while its going on? Like in my case I felt like durnig IM it was good. I got to see 2-3 patients, present to a resident and got critique, then got to present to the attending. It seemed good. How would I know if its a deficient experience?

A good rotation should be challenging and have clear expectations. If the attending or residents don't give you expectations on day one then ask for them. You should get regular feedback. If times aren't set aside for feedback (eg end of first week, mid-rotation, etc) then ask. You should also be encouraged to think for yourself. Not only does this make it a better rotation for the student but also the residents. I set expectations with students on day 1 and try and give them as much autonomy as they feel comfortable with. If they progress naturally then great, and if they seem stagnant I challenge them a little more. I have no problem going to see a new pt with them on their first few days or a complex pt at any time. But midway through I want them to go on their own and feel confident about it. I try and give constructive feedback as much as possible. It's probably the area I'm slacking the most in and need to improve myself. I also don't have a problem answering questions but usually flip it back to them and ask them what they want to do and why, and if neither of us are sure then we look it up together. All of this does make the day a little longer but so far has been worth it.

 

[Spectreman]

Oh man, some of these comments about appreciating the struggle and how lucky we are. Trust me, I know. My life before med school is bonkers, I’m so thankful to be here.

As an update, I’ve been at a new program for a while and the difference is night and day. Absolutely loving it where I am. Nice hospital, very clean and new, residents talk minimal crap about each other. Loving it.

 

[SLC]

To be fair, less than 20% of attending physicians could do these...

I learned all of these in one afternoon in ICU. I don’t ever actually need to do them now that I’m not in the ICU or ER, so I very much doubt I’d do them well now.

 

[hmockingbird]

Sounds like it may have just been a culture fit? I cancelled a residency interview after going to the pre-interview dinner and the residents were all making fun of each other. Not like friendly teasing... it was like middle school and I was good with not repeating that lol.

 

[Giovanotto]

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets overlooked. There really isn’t THAT much different nonsense you have to deal with in medicine that you don’t have to deal with other places. It may present differently but every job has crap that’s annoying to deal with. People don’t ever understand that cuz most haven’t done anything job wise other than school or scribing.

The biggest difference and pain in the butt is that it takes so much longer to reach the end of this. Sure the 1 in 1000 person with the Cush job straight of undergrad makes you feel like the grass is greener but there’s a ton more working their butts off for 50k in jobs they hate

Not gonna elaborate due to lack of time, but as someone whose worked before med school, I'm gonna have to go with "nah" on bolded. Medicine has a level of suck that I don't think many other high education type jobs.

 

[FutureInternist]

Also, in a lot of IM rotations for DO students, a lot of you are misinterpreting seeing 2-3 pts in which plans are already made for you, and all you have to do in update the team lab values in the morning, and write progress notes for them. That's not seeing 2-3 pts.

I'm talking about seeing min 2 pts fresh from the ED, chart review them yourself, see the pts yourself independently, and then make up a solid A/P with 6-8+ problems with 2-3 ddx, and your succinct plan for each. I don't expect you to do this well during your third year, but that's the standard in your 4th yr.

That’s exactly why I would take pts away from students if they had been on service for more than 2 days.
Usually by then you have Dx and just saying Vanc x 6 weeks, await SNF placement, has minimal value.

 

[Espressso]

Poor clinical rotations, lack of structure, and lack of teachings from specialists.

How many 4th yr DO students can interpret the #s written on a LHC or RHC report besides reading the impression?

How many 4th yr DO students can independently interpret an EKG report in term of rate/rhythm/origin of P wave/axis deviation/hypertrophy/ischemia and tie it to the clinical picture?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a beside U/S to r/o pulmonary edema?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a parasternal short/long/apical view to r/o cardiac tamponade?

How many 4th yr DO students can use the U/S probe to look at the IVC to r/o fluid dry or overload status?

How many 4th yr DO students even deal with liver dx pts, from beginning to end?

How many 4th yr DO students can read a CXR in the ABC method?

These are some stuff off my head, in which rotating students at my institutions are taught. I'm sure that there are more. Due to the clinical teachings here, any students who stay awake can pump out 240+ on their Step 2 easily.

Patient presentation is the minimal standard that has been mastered by 3rd yr MD students by Xmas. Sorry, not hating on DO students and am a DO myself. Just feel bad for you guys in general now that I'm on the other side of things.

Translation: How many 4th yr DO students took an US elective? lol

 

[Chibucks15]

Not gonna elaborate due to lack of time, but as someone whose worked before med school, I'm gonna have to go with "nah" on bolded. Medicine has a level of suck that I don't think many other high education type jobs.

oh I don’t disagree there are additional hurdles but it isn’t all sunshine and rainbows outside medicine is my point. There’s an overall sentiment that engineering or tech is all just a dream job making 150k for 40 hours a week right outta undergrad.

The training is the worst but once you get out you can set yourself up very chill if you choose to

 

[bigindian4891]

I strongly believe people should have at least 1-2 years of actual work experience before medical school. Wont ever happen, but it gave me a lot of perspective that I wouldnt have had otherwise.

 

[Mass Effect]

Wait till you audition with a student from another school who is ALSO auditioning. They will enjoy playing you two off each other

That would be a truly malignant place.

 

[Giovanotto]

oh I don’t disagree there are additional hurdles but it isn’t all sunshine and rainbows outside medicine is my point. There’s an overall sentiment that engineering or tech is all just a dream job making 150k for 40 hours a week right outta undergrad.

The training is the worst but once you get out you can set yourself up very chill if you choose to

Oh, okay, so like, when you're 35? Vs. getting a bachelors/masters in engineering at 21-23 and building up in 2-3 years a 100k+ income working 40 hrs/week? Spare me the anecdotes, I have friends in other fields, don't need unicorn examples. Medicine pays what it does because the level of suck to get to attending-hood is quite honestly unbearable.

Anyways, there is no point to this argument. We're obviously in disagreement and all I'm doing is venting.

 

[Chibucks15]

Oh, okay, so like, when you're 35? Vs. getting a bachelors/masters in engineering at 21-23 and building up in 2-3 years a 100k+ income working 40 hrs/week? Spare me the anecdotes, I have friends in other fields, don't need unicorn examples. Medicine pays what it does because the level of suck to get to attending-hood is quite honestly unbearable.

Anyways, there is no point to this argument. We're obviously in disagreement and all I'm doing is venting.

Alright man I have friends in other fields too. And I’ve been in other fields. I wasn’t talking to you with the rare examples it was a general comment. But idk man if you worked prior (idk if you did) I think you’d be more agreeable to what I’m saying. Almost all the non trads I know are. But regardless that’s your opinion and I’m sorry it’s sucky for ya. But coming out and guaranteed 250k and the best job security in the world isn’t a bad thing, especially when COVID (and the impending economic implosion) is gonna mess up every business guy and most other fields besides us. They’re printing money nobody has and it’s gonna blow up hardcore when everyone in our generation can’t afford student loans. THATS when you’ll be happy to be a doc. Insulated from almost all of that crap

 

[Giovanotto]

Alright man I have friends in other fields too. And I’ve been in other fields. I wasn’t talking to you with the rare examples it was a general comment. But idk man if you worked prior (idk if you did) I think you’d be more agreeable to what I’m saying. Almost all the non trads I know are. But regardless that’s your opinion and I’m sorry it’s sucky for ya. But coming out and guaranteed 250k and the best job security in the world isn’t a bad thing, especially when COVID (and the impending economic implosion) is gonna mess up every business guy and most other fields besides us. They’re printing money nobody has and it’s gonna blow up hardcore when everyone in our generation can’t afford student loans. THATS when you’ll be happy to be a doc. Insulated from almost all of that crap

Just as an aside, I have friends in finance, engineering, biotech, etc. and so far all of them are enjoying COVID to the max. WFH, no commutes, saving money, etc. If anything, attitudes towards work-life balance are switching much more towards enjoyment, whereas medicine is continuously hell bent on making training as terrible as possible. Such is life in a traditionally hyper conservative field, with admittedly a lot at stake (people's health).

 

[cadingcading]

I always chuckle when I see comments on these forums and others about "killing auditions" like it is just a walk in the park. For some people it may be but for others it might be a struggle. Also, imagine being placed on a team with other subIs who are just much stronger than you for whatever reason (they had more rotations in the specialty, etc). That can be a challenge.

 

[popopopop]

I always chuckle when I see comments on these forums and others about "killing auditions" like it is just a walk in the park. For some people it may be but for others it might be a struggle. Also, imagine being placed on a team with other subIs who are just much stronger than you for whatever reason (they had more rotations in the specialty, etc). That can be a challenge.

I'm just grateful to have the opportunity to learn on my auditions, knowing full well I can fail miserably. The choices were to be black-listed at 2 programs or no inpatient rotations at all for my field until intern year. If they don't like me despite trying my best, then so be it.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

I always chuckle when I see comments on these forums and others about "killing auditions" like it is just a walk in the park. For some people it may be but for others it might be a struggle. Also, imagine being placed on a team with other subIs who are just much stronger than you for whatever reason (they had more rotations in the specialty, etc). That can be a challenge.

Considering the responses that I get, killing Sub-I is nothing more than a myth. People here think that rocking your Sub-I means being nice to everyone, and showing up early to print the team rounding sheets and staying late just to be there. You hear it too often about somebody matching to their #1 bc they did a Sub-I and misinterpreted their performances at superstar level when they were fortunately enough to be matched to generous residents and attendings, or the program matched them due to having troubles that year.

Unlike the norms stressed by DO admin people about clean presentation, I judge primarily based on your clinical acumen aka precise physical exam findings and optimal plans afterward. It is a lot of work to be a stud doc. You students don’t want to be nothing more than a MLP who has to wait for the read of your tests to come back to initiate proper therapy while your patient is crashing in front of you.

 

[Chibucks15]

Considering the responses that I get, killing Sub-I is nothing more than a myth. People here think that rocking your Sub-I means being nice to everyone, and showing up early to print the team rounding sheets and staying late just to be there. You hear it too often about somebody matching to their #1 bc they did a Sub-I and misinterpreted their performances at superstar level when they were fortunately enough to be matched to generous residents and attendings, or the program matched them due to having troubles that year.

Unlike the norms stressed by DO admin people about clean presentation, I judge primarily based on your clinical acumen aka precise physical exam findings and optimal plans afterward. It is a lot of work to be a stud doc. You students don’t want to be nothing more than a MLP who has to wait for the read of your tests to come back to initiate proper therapy while your patient is crashing in front of you.

Aggressive. What’s the point of residency if we’re supposed to be able to manage a crashing patient as a new M4? I think you may have a warped view of expectations but to each their own. I’ve been on my sub I and have been doing the things you mentioned in addition to taking patients and stuff and have had nothing but good reviews to date.

We’ll see if I match here but I guess I would have no shot at your program you’re talking about

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Aggressive. What’s the point of residency if we’re supposed to be able to manage a crashing patient as a new M4? I think you may have a warped view of expectations but to each their own. I’ve been on my sub I and have been doing the things you mentioned in addition to taking patients and stuff and have had nothing but good reviews to date.

We’ll see if I match here but I guess I would have no shot at your program you’re talking about

But can you use an ultrasound????

 

[CocoMelon0531]

But can you use an ultrasound????

You haven’t seen your GS attending utilizing a US to check for mesh dehiscence, r/o hernia, check for thyroid nodules yet, or r/o bleeding in the abdomen?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You haven’t seen your GS attending utilizing a US to check for mesh dehiscence, r/o hernia, check for thyroid nodules yet, or r/o bleeding in the abdomen?

Lol of course, but I’ve never seen a 4th year medical student be expected to do it and then have their proficiency at it used as a way to judge them for resident selection.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Lol of course, but I’ve never seen a 4th year medical student be expected to do it and then have their proficiency at it used as a way to judge them for resident selection.

I never said anything about proficiency. Most PE exams at your level should just be an awareness of the utility, give them a shot when you do them, and have your findings rechecked by your attendings.

Most learnings start with attempts, and then refinement with feedbacks.

Plus 1 for attempt in my book, and plus five if you get the finding right.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lol of course, but I’ve never seen a 4th year medical student be expected to do it and then have their proficiency at it used as a way to judge them for resident selection.

As a 4th year medical student you should know tirads cold. You should probably drop out because your performance as an intern will likely cause shame to all of medicine.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

As a 4th year medical student you should know tirads cold. You should probably drop out because your performance as an intern will likely cause shame to all of medicine.

There is a reason why it’s better not to do a Sub-I at an away site unless it’s your dream program. It takes a lot to impress people on these auditions. Most of the times, you’re barely making a difference and wasting your money.

In the first month of my intern year, I learned all the above skills and more, and managed a Card floor with 14-15 pts at night mostly by myself, while my senior was in charges of 30-40 pts on her census.

What I’m trying to say is that unlike the mantra on here of killing your auditions by being nice, and being semi helpful with the time commitment, it takes a lot to perform at a superstar level. In my book, you’re great if you can independently see 2-3 people from the ED per day, and write a fresh H&P With solid AP for all of them. For these people, you will probably match at your top 3 places on your list, if these programs are reaches.

If you show developing skills in my mentioned criteria, whichever program will be very lucky to have you and won’t have any trouble matching #1.

Nothing too crazy about what I say rather than the typical sdn mantra about being a chill bro and sister in order to ace your audition.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Last thought, I personally think that being able to use the US in conjunction with your clinical judgment will make you a good doc. Skills won’t come overnight but residency is only a few years. Might as well learn to use well. This is one of those skills that is widely utilized in all specialties. For example, how do you r/o vasospasm after SAH? Use the Transcranial Doppler. In GS, there are a ton of stuff you can do with US like bleeding, hernia, etc... In a simple thing like a CXR with opacity, how do you know whether it’s lobar pneumonia or pulmonary edema from something else? Use US to rule out pulmonary edema and start abx instead of waiting for the read in a couple of hrs. Pt has diffuse ST elevation consistently with pericarditis. Need to use the US to r/o tamponade and txt them ASAP to make them stable before you proceed to other stuff. If there is such a thing as a ultrasound elective, I highly recommend you to get some exposure.

That’s how you end up separating yourself as a real doc instead of a MLP with the MD/DO behind your name.

 

[FutureInternist]

I strongly believe people should have at least 1-2 years of actual work experience before medical school. Wont ever happen, but it gave me a lot of perspective that I wouldnt have had otherwise.

It’s called working and doing undergrad at the same time

I worked at a hotel and those customer service skills help a ton with pts, families, other docs

 

[Ho0v-man]

There is a reason why it’s better not to do a Sub-I at an away site unless it’s your dream program. It takes a lot to impress people on these auditions. Most of the times, you’re barely making a difference and wasting your money.

In the first month of my intern year, I learned all the above skills and more, and managed a Card floor with 14-15 pts at night mostly by myself, while my senior was in charges of 30-40 pts on her census.

What I’m trying to say is that unlike the mantra on here of killing your auditions by being nice, and being semi helpful with the time commitment, it takes a lot to perform at a superstar level. In my book, you’re great if you can independently see 2-3 people from the ED per day, and write a fresh H&P With solid AP for all of them. For these people, you will probably match at your top 3 places on your list, if these programs are reaches.

If you show developing skills in my mentioned criteria, whichever program will be very lucky to have you and won’t have any trouble matching #1.

Nothing too crazy about what I say rather than the typical sdn mantra about being a chill bro and sister in order to ace your audition.

So you mean that you were able to learn all of that stuff and more on top of demanding clinical responsibilities despite not knowing it as a 4th year? Don’t you think the fact that you were able to learn all of that stuff in your first month on the fly while managing 14-15 patients actually kind of proves how dumb it is to think we’re inferior med students if we haven’t done that stuff? I do, especially when there are multiple attendings in the thread saying most fully trained physicians can’t either.

I agree with your other statements about the likely futility of auditions and the value of an US course. But you even admit the students on service with you can’t do this/do it well routinely so I fail to see the point of using these criteria to judge us as inferior.

edited for grammar

 

[CocoMelon0531]

So you mean that you were able to learn all of that stuff and more on top of demanding clinical responsibilities despite not knowing it as a 4th year? Don’t you think the fact that you were able to learn all of that stuff in your first month on the fly while managing 14-15 patients actually kind of proves how dumb it is to think we’re inferior med students if we haven’t done that stuff? I do, especially when there are multiple attendings in the thread saying most fully trained physicians can’t either.

I agree with your other statements about the likely futility of auditions and the value of an US course. But you even admit the students on service with you can’t do this/do it well routinely so I fail to see the point of using these criteria to judge us as inferior.

edited for grammar

Where does it say that DO students are inferior? My post was in reference to exposure. Just to let you know, my DO colleague a few years ago was able to do all of that at the end of third year medical school. Just like there are MD students who will be able to do this, but more due to exposure during their superior clinical training. But there are also a ton of MD students walking around without much capability while having these exposures. I personally was never exposed to this intensity as a medical student, and was able to pick it up on the fly and excel at an intense program. So, it is not a requirement. But you can bet that I would have developed these skills by 4th yr if I was exposed to them earlier. I don’t see what your point is in arguing these points with me. As a DO, you are already behind the eight ball on paper in comparison to your MD colleagues. When all things are equal, it will always be MD > DO across all specialties. That’s just the fact of life. Being a normal person who gets along well with the team and average clinically isn’t going to cut it for auditions at university ACGME programs.

But make no mistake that the bar set to be a superstar performer even at your level is very high especially for mid to high tier programs. You will likely do well and are probably above average if you can pick up 2-3 pts independently from the ED and see them yourself at your level.

 

[MLNS]

Man this guy is looney tunes

 

[Neopolymath]

Man this guy is looney tunes

Literally a walking POCUS guerilla marketing campaign.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Where does it say that DO students are inferior? My post was in reference to exposure. Just to let you know, my DO colleague a few years ago was able to do all of that at the end of third year medical school. Just like there are MD students who will be able to do this, but more due to exposure during their superior clinical training. But there are also a ton of MD students walking around without much capability while having these exposures. I personally was never exposed to this intensity as a medical student, and was able to pick it up on the fly and excel at an intense program. So, it is not a requirement. But you can bet that I would have developed these skills by 4th yr if I was exposed to them earlier. I don’t see what your point is in arguing these points with me. As a DO, you are already behind the eight ball on paper in comparison to your MD colleagues. When all things are equal, it will always be MD > DO across all specialties. That’s just the fact of life. Being a normal person who gets along well with the team and average clinically isn’t going to cut it for auditions at university ACGME programs.

But make no mistake that the bar set to be a superstar performer even at your level is very high especially for mid to high tier programs. You will likely do well and are probably above average if you can pick up 2-3 pts independently from the ED and see them yourself at your level.

My point is that having those skills is not that important since by your own admission you’re doing well in residency despite starting without them. I’m not arguing that DO clinical education is equivalent to MD because it’s not. I’m arguing that your list of skills in an earlier post don’t sound like too much of a big deal if you just picked them up on your first rotation in residency.

Again, I also balk at the idea of crushing auditions. Especially when you spend your first week learning the new emr and can’t even find your way around.