Bruh, auditions are tough.

[Chibucks15]

Yeah, they gave use pagers on a 3rd year IM rotation (which I stupidly took as an elective). Big institution, busy service, was paged multiple times and always had to call the operator to connect me from house phones. That sucked. I forgot that it happened until literally just now.



Topic to look up and present for 5-10 min is great. Great way to learn, usually not super time consuming, actually useful info, and can do it with little downtime. I don't pimp a lot, because it never really helped me learn, but getting people to present is nice.



Similar experience, except for note writing, I've seen a lot of bad notes written by MD and DO students, but I expect them to be bad. The point of assigning them notes is to get practice and make them better.



Are you in the midwest or west coast? I had a different experience out east, but people tend to be nicer here.

Midwest haha so likely just a chill spot haha but I don’t plan on leaving the area so works well for me

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[PikminOC]

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets overlooked. There really isn’t THAT much different nonsense you have to deal with in medicine that you don’t have to deal with other places. It may present differently but every job has crap that’s annoying to deal with. People don’t ever understand that cuz most haven’t done anything job wise other than school or scribing.

The biggest difference and pain in the butt is that it takes so much longer to reach the end of this. Sure the 1 in 1000 person with the Cush job straight of undergrad makes you feel like the grass is greener but there’s a ton more working their butts off for 50k in jobs they hate

Lots of employed Physician's in corporations that hate their jobs too

And many people get jobs after undergrad that start building up 401 k etc. They retire with pensions after 20 years.

 

[LatteColoredDO]

Poor clinical rotations, lack of structure, and lack of teachings from specialists.

How many 4th yr DO students can interpret the #s written on a LHC or RHC report besides reading the impression?

How many 4th yr DO students can independently interpret an EKG report in term of rate/rhythm/origin of P wave/axis deviation/hypertrophy/ischemia and tie it to the clinical picture?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a beside U/S to r/o pulmonary edema?

How many 4th yr DO students can do a parasternal short/long/apical view to r/o cardiac tamponade?

How many 4th yr DO students can use the U/S probe to look at the IVC to r/o fluid dry or overload status?

How many 4th yr DO students even deal with liver dx pts, from beginning to end?

How many 4th yr DO students can read a CXR in the ABC method?

These are some stuff off my head, in which rotating students at my institutions are taught. I'm sure that there are more. Due to the clinical teachings here, any students who stay awake can pump out 240+ on their Step 2 easily.

Patient presentation is the minimal standard that has been mastered by 3rd yr MD students by Xmas. Sorry, not hating on DO students and am a DO myself. Just feel bad for you guys in general now that I'm on the other side of things.

A lot of MD and DO 4th year students can do this. It just depends on the student.

 

[AlteredScale]

A lot of MD and DO 4th year students can do this. It just depends on the student.

I have high doubts any MD or DO student truly understands all of the findings of a RHC.
—
Also, as a DO now on the other side of things: unfortunately, my current experience with DO third year medical students in comparison to MD third year medical students have shown a stark difference in their ability to present, write notes, assimilate and organize information, and be overall efficient and not overwhelmed while rounding on a busy inpatient IM service. I’ll leave you to guess which one was weaker.

The MD students at the program I’m at learn from IM attending physician faculty who on a bi weekly basis, are on rounds teaching and running a service. They are expected to know basic presentation and organization skills at the end of 2nd year and practice it year 1-2. The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

My old DO school had 1-3 SP encounters every semester. It was only at the end of second year that they made us present these pts. There were no other instance or opportunities for most of the class to learn how to verbally present a patient and create a problem list for them. We had 5-6 IM faculty, none of them practicing anymore, strictly teaching. None of them available as the attending on staff when rotating on IM inpatient rotations.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Yeah, the only specialty SDN has consistently advised against doing auditions for is IM. It makes sense to do auditions for neuro because it's considered to have the highest workload out of the non-surgical/procedural fields.

Radiology also. you just arnet going to impress anyone with your meh chest x ray reads.

 

[LatteColoredDO]

I have high doubts any MD or DO student truly understands all of the findings of a RHC.
—
Also, as a DO now on the other side of things: unfortunately, my current experience with DO third year medical students in comparison to MD third year medical students have shown a stark difference in their ability to present, write notes, assimilate and organize information, and be overall efficient and not overwhelmed while rounding on a busy inpatient IM service. I’ll leave you to guess which one was weaker.

The MD students at the program I’m at learn from IM attending physician faculty who on a bi weekly basis, are on rounds teaching and running a service. They are expected to know basic presentation and organization skills at the end of 2nd year and practice it year 1-2. The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

My old DO school had 1-3 SP encounters every semester. It was only at the end of second year that they made us present these pts. There were no other instance or opportunities for most of the class to learn how to verbally present a patient and create a problem list for them. We had 5-6 IM faculty, none of them practicing anymore, strictly teaching. None of them available as the attending on staff when rotating on IM inpatient rotations.

It sucks that DO schools have no accountability when training students. We're left to deal with the results.

 

[ciestar]

I have high doubts any MD or DO student truly understands all of the findings of a RHC.
—
Also, as a DO now on the other side of things: unfortunately, my current experience with DO third year medical students in comparison to MD third year medical students have shown a stark difference in their ability to present, write notes, assimilate and organize information, and be overall efficient and not overwhelmed while rounding on a busy inpatient IM service. I’ll leave you to guess which one was weaker.

The MD students at the program I’m at learn from IM attending physician faculty who on a bi weekly basis, are on rounds teaching and running a service. They are expected to know basic presentation and organization skills at the end of 2nd year and practice it year 1-2. The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

My old DO school had 1-3 SP encounters every semester. It was only at the end of second year that they made us present these pts. There were no other instance or opportunities for most of the class to learn how to verbally present a patient and create a problem list for them. We had 5-6 IM faculty, none of them practicing anymore, strictly teaching. None of them available as the attending on staff when rotating on IM inpatient rotations.

Im on a rotation with a third year DO student and a second year PA student. That PA student knows their stuff and has been out presenting the med student since their first day. I wonder what kind of training that PA school gets

 

[jurassicpark]

The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

This ^^ is the most worrisome. When I get the DO students who did outpatient IM onto my service present to me, it is.. interesting. While every attending will have their own preferences in presentation style, there is somewhat a basic structure we follow to get the gist. With COVID now, a lot of the DO students ONLY have outpatient IM experience, if that. When these third years grow up to be fourth years and doing auditions, etc and not know how to properly relieve themselves, it will make for an interesting and nail biting match experience.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I have high doubts any MD or DO student truly understands all of the findings of a RHC.
—
Also, as a DO now on the other side of things: unfortunately, my current experience with DO third year medical students in comparison to MD third year medical students have shown a stark difference in their ability to present, write notes, assimilate and organize information, and be overall efficient and not overwhelmed while rounding on a busy inpatient IM service. I’ll leave you to guess which one was weaker.

The MD students at the program I’m at learn from IM attending physician faculty who on a bi weekly basis, are on rounds teaching and running a service. They are expected to know basic presentation and organization skills at the end of 2nd year and practice it year 1-2. The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

My old DO school had 1-3 SP encounters every semester. It was only at the end of second year that they made us present these pts. There were no other instance or opportunities for most of the class to learn how to verbally present a patient and create a problem list for them. We had 5-6 IM faculty, none of them practicing anymore, strictly teaching. None of them available as the attending on staff when rotating on IM inpatient rotations.

And that’s huge. I go to a different school, but my experience mirrors what your school did. I never once had ANY training from my school on even the general structure of a patient presentation. SP encounters were 100% geared toward passing the level 2 PE and nothing else. There’s so much BS in the first two years but apparently no room for this skill all of us will use.

 

[Spectreman]

Im on a rotation with a third year DO student and a second year PA student. That PA student knows their stuff and has been out presenting the med student since their first day. I wonder what kind of training that PA school gets

I spent time with 2 PA students at my last rotation and they were clueless. It really depends on the person. Some PA schools count washing dishes in a nursing home as part of the clinic hours required to apply, other PA students were a nurse for 10 years and of course know how o present patients. It really varies a lot.

 

[ciestar]

I spent time with 2 PA students at my last rotation and they were clueless. It really depends on the person. Some PA schools count washing dishes in a nursing home as part of the clinic hours required to apply, other PA students were a nurse for 10 years and of course know how o present patients. It really varies a lot.

A lot of schools have a 5 year program straight out of high school now as well. No experience necessary.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Im on a rotation with a third year DO student and a second year PA student. That PA student knows their stuff and has been out presenting the med student since their first day. I wonder what kind of training that PA school gets

Ability to present doesn’t mean they don’t know how to do medicine. Presenting is a meh feature that loses much of its utility in attending hood. It shouldn’t but it does

 

[AlteredScale]

Ability to present doesn’t mean they don’t know how to do medicine. Presenting is a meh feature that loses much of its utility in attending hood. It shouldn’t but it does

Well that’s why DO students go on to smaller, previously AOA residences and graduate and go to work in community settings (of which is not a bad thing). they end up having habits that aren’t conducive staying in academia or teaching and can’t give appropriate feedback to others about presenting.

DO students interested in IM are absolutely at a disadvantage to match at an academic university IM program if they do not receive appropriate or equivalent training to MD students and or if they do not go out of their way to ensure they get exposed to this environment in some way shape or form before the middle of their fourth year.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

Radiology also. you just arnet going to impress anyone with your meh chest x ray reads.

An alternative is to do a rotation in interventional radiology.

You won’t necessarily impress anyone with your procedural skills but you can impress them with your hard work, commitment, and team work.

That lends itself to more compelling letters of recommendation.

 

[deleted645092]

I have high doubts any MD or DO student truly understands all of the findings of a RHC.
—
Also, as a DO now on the other side of things: unfortunately, my current experience with DO third year medical students in comparison to MD third year medical students have shown a stark difference in their ability to present, write notes, assimilate and organize information, and be overall efficient and not overwhelmed while rounding on a busy inpatient IM service. I’ll leave you to guess which one was weaker.

The MD students at the program I’m at learn from IM attending physician faculty who on a bi weekly basis, are on rounds teaching and running a service. They are expected to know basic presentation and organization skills at the end of 2nd year and practice it year 1-2. The DO student I was with spent 1 month of their IM core on an outpatient service, essentially shadowing a community IM clinic doctor.

My old DO school had 1-3 SP encounters every semester. It was only at the end of second year that they made us present these pts. There were no other instance or opportunities for most of the class to learn how to verbally present a patient and create a problem list for them. We had 5-6 IM faculty, none of them practicing anymore, strictly teaching. None of them available as the attending on staff when rotating on IM inpatient rotations.

I thought you graduated from my school up until you said 5-6 IM faculty. We just have 3 family med and 2 OMM.