BS/MD program dismissal...how to address in application?

[pasdebourree]

Hello everyone,

Finally gathering up the courage to air one of my biggest insecurities on the internet. Here goes nothing...

Throughout college, I was a part of an 8 year BS/MD program. I loved the program, and I have no regrets about being a part of it, nor do I have any hard feelings. One of the heavily emphasized perks of the program was that the guarantee meant the students did not have to "think like applicants," which frees them up to pursue non-medical interests and hobbies. I was young, immature, and I took the "don't think like an applicant" thing a bit too far. I got lackadaisical about my schoolwork because I only needed to maintain a minimum GPA. I did not seek out help from my professors because I felt like I did not need to. I did not pursue very much volunteering or research, because I wasn't a real applicant, so I figured I didn't need it as much. This was, of course, a TERRIBLE attitude to have, and not the attitude that the program wished to foster. I wish more than anything that I could go back in time and smack my former self upside the head!

My GPA ultimately went below the minimum--I was so carefree early on in undergrad that I had no cushion once my coursework got more demanding, plus I did not apply myself the way I should have. I was then dismissed from the program my senior year. I honestly think that dismissal was one of the best gifts anyone could have given me. I needed the wake-up call and medical school would have eaten me alive, had I been allowed to matriculate.

Now, two years out of undergrad, I've found myself needing to "think like an applicant"--and it has been so fulfilling that I feel more motivated now then I ever have before. I work full-time doing clinical research that I love (with several publications and presentations, not to mention amazing clinical experience), I am getting a Master's in bioethics part-time in the evenings, and I spend the rest of my free time doing volunteer work and other constructive activities. Thinking like an applicant has not been about checking off boxes on an AMCAS form--it has helped me to understand what life I am signing myself up for, and made me feel more secure and confident that I really want to do this. Plus, I've had a ton of time to acknowledge why I went wrong and what I would do to make sure it never happened again.

I think I will end up with a decent application, with one weak link: my abysmal undergraduate science GPA of 3.04. (My cumulative GPA was slightly higher--a 3.45.) I got some As, a few Cs, but mostly just a ton of Bs because I didn't push myself. I feel like my grades are not a reflection of my intelligence or capability, and if I had the opportunity to re-take the classes (my undergrad school does not allow retakes of C or above), I know I could have done much better, especially having lost the complacent attitude I used to have. I have an okay, well-balanced MCAT score (30) so I know that I am not completely incompetent in science.

How should I address this on my application? I feel like that GPA is going to be a humongous sore spot on my application, but I also feel like there aren't a ton of applicants in my exact situation and I want to be able to explain. I want to prove to medical schools that I am intellectually capable of handling the workload, especially now that I've taken time off to learn and majorly grow up. I know that I probably shouldn't mention it directly in the personal statement--right?? Perhaps I should just bring it up in the section for academic hardship?

(Oh, and for anyone suggesting this, I am not in a financial position to be able to do a Special Masters Program...the only reason I can afford the Master's I am getting right now is due to a very generous employee benefit. I am in quite a bit of debt from college and I'm trying to be as financially conservative as possible.)

Do you think that someone reading my application would take my situation seriously? How should I delicately address it and establish that I am not the same person now as I was back then? I know that, without some sort of justification, that terrible sGPA will get me passed over pretty much everywhere, and even with the justification, it still might.

TL; DR: Was in a BS/MD program in undergrad, bad complacent attitude about being guaranteed into medical school --> bad GPA --> dismissal, time off and research work/activities --> more maturity, how to address this disparity and prove that I really am capable, and not have my GPA dictate the tone of my entire application?

Sorry for the epic novel of a post. Thank you to anyone who may have read or who cares to give feedback, it is much appreciated! (By the way, no need to point out that I was a complete idiot as an undergrad, because I am already keenly aware of that! Just trying to make my dream happen by moving forward in spite of previous bad life choices.)

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[Helper3]

Looks like you have not been wasting your time at all. Definitely make sure the grades from Bioethics courses are all A's.
You address the situation with an excellent personal statement that tells the story with evidence provided from your actions/accomplishments since UG school.

 

[GIRLmeetsMED]

Agree with the above. Evidence is key for any applicant, but especially for someone who is trying to redeem them self. It looks like you are doing everything financially possible to show that you can and want to commit yourself to medicine. Along with a well written personal statement, I think your extracurricular/work descriptions and LoRs will be VERY important in showing how you have grown so spend extra time on those and choose people who can write a meaningful and thorough LoR. It will be harder for you because of the pre-screen, but not impossible. Good luck, OP!

 

[Planes2Doc]

Will you have to disclose that you were in such a program? I don't quite remember what AMCAS asks. If possible, sweeping it under the rug would be your best option.

If you apply DO, you can retake your worst classes and quickly boost your GPA. Plus, since AMCAS and AACOMAS are separate, they probably wouldn't have any knowledge of you being in the program. I know that the applications ask you if you've matriculated to medical school previously, and since you haven't, you can mark that off as "no." Good luck!

 

[Catalystik]

Med schools can be forgiving of youthful idiocy, but that doesn't mean you don't have to redeem a poor academic record. How is a masters in Bio Ethics (useful though the information might be) going to reassure adcomms that you have what it takes to survive the hard-science environment of a med school, considering your low BCPM GPA?

 

[DokterMom]

My GPA ultimately went below the minimum--I was so carefree early on in undergrad that I had no cushion once my coursework got more demanding, plus I did not apply myself the way I should have. I was then dismissed from the program my senior year. I honestly think that dismissal was one of the best gifts anyone could have given me. I needed the wake-up call and medical school would have eaten me alive, had I been allowed to matriculate.

Sounds like you have grown up --

And Planes2Doc's question is an interesting angle. Would a school necessarily know that you blew a BS/MD chance? Or just that you had a low GPA?... Worth finding out.

If, for example, the AMCAS schools would automatically know that you 'flunked out of' a BS/MD program, then your essay above, particularly the bit about how it was a blessing in disguise because you realize you'd have been 'eaten alive' in medical school is well-written and very insightful. If they're going to find out, then tell them first, and do it your way.

If they're not necessarily going to find out, well, then I'd tell most of the same story, but leave out the failed linkage angle. That's just - ouch... And for AACOMAS, that's what I'd suggest you do.

Good Luck and let us know how it works out for you. It may take a bit more time to prove you really have grown up, but your insight convinced me.

 

[Catalystik]

And for AACOMAS, that's what I'd suggest you do.

Ditto.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Sounds like you have grown up --

And Planes2Doc's question is an interesting angle. Would a school necessarily know that you blew a BS/MD chance? Or just that you had a low GPA?... Worth finding out.

If, for example, the AMCAS schools would automatically know that you 'flunked out of' a BS/MD program, then your essay above, particularly the bit about how it was a blessing in disguise because you realize you'd have been 'eaten alive' in medical school is well-written and very insightful. If they're going to find out, then tell them first, and do it your way.

If they're not necessarily going to find out, well, then I'd tell most of the same story, but leave out the failed linkage angle. That's just - ouch... And for AACOMAS, that's what I'd suggest you do.

Good Luck and let us know how it works out for you. It may take a bit more time to prove you really have grown up, but your insight convinced me.

I agree with most of this, but am concerned about the bolded part. I think the last thing you'd want to do is admit that you would have been eaten alive in medical school. Maybe it's just me, but if I were an ADCOM, I would not be happy if an applicant said that. Don't volunteer more information than you have to. Also don't explicitly state that you would have struggled in medical school. See what you can do with this. The less anyone knows, the better. Medical schools love seeing people who had an upward trend and brought their grades up. If you can do that without mentioning ever being in a BS/MD program, then you'd look like a terrific applicant.

 

[lazygun247]

What everyone else stated above me is all correct, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a certain degree, the majority of the competitive medical schools will ignore your application because of the low GPA.

When you do apply, remember to apply broadly and to many schools. It may seem like a lot of work, but it takes effort to make up for mistakes of the past. Also may want to consider DO schools where there is more leniency to lower grades

 

[gumdrops]

If you've done well in your masters' program, that should be redemption enough. A 30 on the first try means you're pretty smart and should be fine for medical school. I tried to improve on a 30 and it was very difficult. It may not be for you but a 30 is that turning point where you really have to gain a whole other level of proficiency in a subject to see a real score bump. An SMP has hurt more of the people I know than it has helped them, honestly. You're trying to get the highest grade possible in classes where people gain enough information (and struggle) just by passing. It sounds like you're fine without an SMP so don't go that option.

It sounds like you're extremely self-reflective, know what went wrong and have fixed it. Medical schools would be a bit more forgiving because of your age when you made those bad grades. Talk about how you re-committed to medicine and know with absolute certainty what was just a hunch when you were 18; medicine is for you and you've identified the traits to become a physician and have developed those through your path to medicine. You can turn this into a great sell if you get some clinical experience and cite ways that you've strengthened your character to emulate the great clinicians you've seen through your non-traditional path. Best of luck to you.

 

[scarletgirl777]

If you've done well in your masters' program, that should be redemption enough. A 30 on the first try means you're pretty smart and should be fine for medical school. I tried to improve on a 30 and it was very difficult. It may not be for you but a 30 is that turning point where you really have to gain a whole other level of proficiency in a subject to see a real score bump. An SMP has hurt more of the people I know than it has helped them, honestly. You're trying to get the highest grade possible in classes where people gain enough information (and struggle) just by passing. It sounds like you're fine without an SMP so don't go that option.

It sounds like you're extremely self-reflective, know what went wrong and have fixed it. Medical schools would be a bit more forgiving because of your age when you made those bad grades. Talk about how you re-committed to medicine and know with absolute certainty what was just a hunch when you were 18; medicine is for you and you've identified the traits to become a physician and have developed those through your path to medicine. You can turn this into a great sell if you get some clinical experience and cite ways that you've strengthened your character to emulate the great clinicians you've seen through your non-traditional path. Best of luck to you.

People vastly overrate the ability of master's programs in public health, bioethics, or anything other than hard science to boost your GPA. The standards to get an A in a graduate course, even in a science or science-related degree program, are just not the same. The OP is going to have to take some kind of science courses, whether they be postbac courses of similar classes he's already taken that qualify for DO replacement or just upper level hard science courses to show an upward trend. And if I were you I wouldn't mention the combined program to anyone. You never matriculated so it really doesn't matter, except to show poor judgment in the fact that you already threw away an opportunity. I know that sounds harsh, I'm only stressing that I don't think it's worth telling anyone about it.

 

[gumdrops]

People vastly overrate the ability of master's programs in public health, bioethics, or anything other than hard science to boost your GPA. The standards to get an A in a graduate course, even in a science or science-related degree program, are just not the same. The OP is going to have to take some kind of science courses, whether they be postbac courses of similar classes he's already taken that qualify for DO replacement or just upper level hard science courses to show an upward trend. And if I were you I wouldn't mention the combined program to anyone. You never matriculated so it really doesn't matter, except to show poor judgment in the fact that you already threw away an opportunity. I know that sounds harsh, I'm only stressing that I don't think it's worth telling anyone about it.

Graduate school courses are classified differently on AMCAS, as you already probably know. So many people are misled off of the advice on this board to do an SMP and thus kill their chances at medical school when it's just not necessary. An a la carte post-bac or a masters' in biology will do the trick with a strong MCAT. You're looking to demonstrate readiness for medical school, not use graduate courses as a GPA boost.

I opted for a master's program instead of an SMP for various reasons. On SDN, everyone would have advised me to do an SMP. I just didn't want to take the risk, actually wanted to do research and will be attending an allopathic medical school in the fall. Granted, I had done post-bac work, which may be a much more affordable and low-risk option with similar reward for the OP. My experience is n = 1 and I'm perfectly aware that the standards are different for graduate school grading, having just finished graduate school myself. Medical schools are also aware that graduate school grading standards are different, I'm sure.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Graduate school courses are classified differently on AMCAS, as you already probably know. So many people are misled off of the advice on this board to do an SMP and thus kill their chances at medical school when it's just not necessary. An a la carte post-bac or a masters' in biology will do the trick with a strong MCAT. You're looking to demonstrate readiness for medical school, not use graduate courses as a GPA boost.

I opted for a master's program instead of an SMP for various reasons. On SDN, everyone would have advised me to do an SMP. I just didn't want to take the risk, actually wanted to do research and will be attending an allopathic medical school in the fall. Granted, I had done post-bac work, which may be a much more affordable and low-risk option with similar reward for the OP. My experience is n = 1 and I'm perfectly aware that the standards are different for graduate school grading, having just finished graduate school myself. Medical schools are also aware that graduate school grading standards are different, I'm sure.

I guess what I was trying to say is no one is really going to be impressed with a 4.0 in a master's in bioethics, and I've met so many people who got a master's (usually public health) with that hope and are still not in med school. Most graduate students, even in the sciences, are just generally trying to get a B, and often there is a lot more leniency in terms of extensions, group projects, etc. The best thing is to raise the undergraduate GPA that shows up on your AMCAS. I also agree that SMPs are a very high risk and expensive proposition, which is why I think the OP may be better served by some kind of postbaccalaureate work.

 

[gumdrops]

I guess what I was trying to say is no one is really going to be impressed with a 4.0 in a master's in bioethics, and I've met so many people who got a master's (usually public health) with that hope and are still not in med school. Most graduate students, even in the sciences, are just generally trying to get a B, and often there is a lot more leniency in terms of extensions, group projects, etc. The best thing is to raise the undergraduate GPA that shows up on your AMCAS. I also agree that SMPs are a very high risk and expensive proposition, which is why I think the OP may be better served by some kind of postbaccalaureate work.

Ah, I agree that the masters' would have been more helpful in a hard science.

OP, I knew someone in a very similar situation as yours GPA-wise who took 30 hours of post-bac work and made straight A's. He also retook the MCAT and made a 35. He got interviews at six MD schools and ended up at a top twenty (EC's were pretty impressive, admittedly). I don't think you need to retake the MCAT but I think you'd be in a good position if you were to take 30-50 credit hours of post-bac hard sciences and made a 4.0 or close to a 4.0 as possible.

 

[pasdebourree]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! It is so helpful to get so many perspectives--it can be hard to navigate this whole process alone.

Just to clarify--I, by no means, think that my Master's in bioethics will do anything to improve my GPA in the eyes of an adcom. I completely understand that this program is different from hard sciences, and does not do anything to "prove" my science competency. That is exactly what I wanted to do it though; an opportunity to participate in this program presented itself to me, and bioethics is something I personally consider very important, and will (hopefully) help my professional development when (read: if) I become a physician. No other motives or trying to "game" the system--just something that I really enjoy that is keeping the humanities side of my brain working during my time off, and is really freaking interesting to boot.

@lazygun247 : no worries, not bearing bad news--I will be happy to go to any medical school if I can be accepted. I wouldn't expect any top tiers to consider my app so I'm going about the application process accordingly.

@DokterMom: you bring up an interesting point. I was originally going to try to avoid talking about it at all costs, but I've been debating in my head: how else would I explain such a lousy performance? My trend wasn't even really upward, it was rather stagnant. Perhaps it was slightly upward but not enough to be redeeming. Do you think I should just say that I needed an attitude adjustment without mentioning the reason why I had the attitude in the first place? Mentioning the BS/MD situation will at least give context to the bad attitude and make it obvious that I do not take medical school for granted anymore. But I'm honestly open to suggestions as to how I could get this point across without mentioning--you're right, it might be best to keep it on the down low.

@Planes2Doc : thanks so much for your feedback. The point I was trying to make about being "eaten alive" by medical school is not that I think it would have been intellectually too challenging; rather, that I did not have the proper mindset to be able to handle the rigor. This is the point that I'm trying to get across to adcoms, that my grades are not a reflection of my true capability. It also shows that I understand how it takes more than smarts to get through medical school, and attitude is key. It is hard though because you're basically telling an adcom, "Trust me, I'm not as stupid as I look" and expecting them to believe it, which is why I'm trying to approach this in the best way possible.

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me!

 

[pasdebourree]

Just to elaborate a bit more:

I can understand where some people are coming from when they suggest not mentioning it at all and keeping my cards close to my vest. I agree in that it's probably better to not explicitly bring bad things into their awareness. But my GPA was not an upward trend, but rather was pretty consistently average, which makes sense if you're considering that I was working under the shroud of a guaranteed medical school acceptance and allowed that to make me complacent. If my trend was upward, then I would certainly not mention the program at all. Does anyone think there is a way I can omit mention of the program and still have a compelling reason for this non-upward GPA? Because if I can do that, I think it might be my best option.

Also, if this is worth noting, the BS/MD program was for my state school, which is probably one of my statistical best shots of getting accepted. They will certainly be able to tell that I was in the program because they would know the special courses on my transcript. I suppose I have to be pretty forthcoming with them, huh?

 

[Planes2Doc]

Just to elaborate a bit more:

I can understand where some people are coming from when they suggest not mentioning it at all and keeping my cards close to my vest. I agree in that it's probably better to not explicitly bring bad things into their awareness. But my GPA was not an upward trend, but rather was pretty consistently average, which makes sense if you're considering that I was working under the shroud of a guaranteed medical school acceptance and allowed that to make me complacent. If my trend was upward, then I would certainly not mention the program at all. Does anyone think there is a way I can omit mention of the program and still have a compelling reason for this non-upward GPA? Because if I can do that, I think it might be my best option.

Also, if this is worth noting, the BS/MD program was for my state school, which is probably one of my statistical best shots of getting accepted. They will certainly be able to tell that I was in the program because they would know the special courses on my transcript. I suppose I have to be pretty forthcoming with them, huh?

Not everyone has an upward trend. Some people struggle at certain points, then get their act together. For instance, as others have mentioned, if you apply DO, you can retake certain classes and raise your GPA significantly (and quickly). I don't think you'll be grilled for it. I'm sure there are many people who had mediocre grades, and ended up getting in (to MD schools as well). It can raise a big red flag, which is why you ended up posting this thread anyhow. If you weren't previously in a BS/MD program, I doubt you would have made this thread.

Another issue that no one mentioned is that you dropped or didn't end up doing ECs that medical schools like to see. That alone may be a red flag since you're technically not supposed to drop ECs until you have an acceptance (as a traditional or non-traditional student). ADCOMs may question why you weren't volunteering or doing such things during that time, even though I'm guessing that a majority of BS/MD students will not jump through the hoops because they don't have to.

I'm sure that the school in question is well aware of the situation. I'm not sure if you can salvage it. But if you are able to sweep this under the rug, you can probably improve your chances. You can retake classes and you already have a pretty decent MCAT score.

I understand why you would like to tell schools about being in the BS/MD program. I'm sure that current ADCOM members can shed some light on this, but the way I see it, is that you blew the chance and that's a big red flag. An extreme example is someone who got caught cheating on a large assignment at school. They got a 0% from the instructor, and it ended up bringing them down a letter grade. There is no other record of it. Now, what if that student were to admit (like they are technically supposed to) on AMCAS that they were caught cheating? Even if they write an essay about how much they learned and grew as a person, it wouldn't make a difference. It won't strengthen their application.

In your case, I don't know if it will strengthen your application. My gut tells me it won't. It's just like someone who struggled and failed out of medical school who tries to get back in. It's an uphill battle. This is just one of those things that you'd probably want to keep silent. Just like getting caught cheating, you can of course spin it into something positive. But that doesn't mean it will actually end up being a positive. I don't mean to be rude or offensive, and sorry if I am.

 

[pasdebourree]

@Planes2Doc: No worries, and no offense taken! I started this thread so I could get some frank, honest advice and you have delivered, so I really appreciate it. You're right, my attempt at explaining away the circumstances might backfire, just as it would for someone who had cheated or something. I have to frame myself in the best light possible to make light of an ugly situation.

As for the ECs, that is another reason why I had considered mentioning the BS/MD, since you're right, there is a strange gap in them. The BS/MD meant that my ECs during college were mostly non-clinical activities (such as dance), and it might seem weird that I only started the clinical stuff later, once I was finished with college. But my ECs are fairly strong now so I might just play those up and hope that no one knocks me for the odd timeline I have going on.

I'm actually really curious to know what an adcom thinks of this situation!

 

[dumb!]

1. focus your personal application/personal statement on what you have done right, rather than wrong.
2. unless amcas requires you to state that you have been in a combined program don't mention it.

 

[DokterMom]

I think @Planes2Doc has nailed it. Don't explain unless you have to (meaning it will be known). If you have to explain, own it.

I'd think DO would be your best bet. A few quickie GPA repair classes in the hard sciences and you're probably in within a single cycle.

 

[gyngyn]

And Planes2Doc's question is an interesting angle. Would a school necessarily know that you blew a BS/MD chance?
.

Yes. There is a question on the primary regarding previous application and/or matriculation into an MD program. There is also a space to elaborate.

 

[Goro]

Being more mature now is admirable, but you need to demonstrate that you can do well in medical school. So far, you haven't.

The fastest route will be to simply retake any F/D/C science coursework and apply to DO programs.

If you're only boning for the MD degree, then a SMP is in order. Ace that, plus ace MCAT, and there are MD programs that reward reinvention. A 30 MCAT probably won't help.



Do you think that someone reading my application would take my situation seriously? How should I delicately address it and establish that I am not the same person now as I was back then? I know that, without some sort of justification, that terrible sGPA will get me passed over pretty much everywhere, and even with the justification, it still might.

TL; DR: Was in a BS/MD program in undergrad, bad complacent attitude about being guaranteed into medical school --> bad GPA --> dismissal, time off and research work/activities --> more maturity, how to address this disparity and prove that I really am capable, and not have my GPA dictate the tone of my entire application?

 

[pasdebourree]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! I have quite a bit to consider before going through the application process. I appreciate everyone who's taken their time to help!

 

[pasdebourree]

Just throwing it out there--how much post-bacc credit do you think would be necessary to prove I can handle it? I'm trying to think of how many I could squeeze in before the 2015 application cycle, as well as how much I could afford. Maybe five courses, two being re-takes of the classes I got Cs in and three that are classes I haven't taken yet? Would this be sufficient, assuming I got all A's?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Your story will be compelling but you have to fix the GPA with real science classes. If you were a humanities major, it wouldn't take that many courses to do it. Keep working part time and do an informal postbacc. It will be less expensive yah not getting in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Just throwing it out there--how much post-bacc credit do you think would be necessary to prove I can handle it? I'm trying to think of how many I could squeeze in before the 2015 application cycle, as well as how much I could afford. Maybe five courses, two being re-takes of the classes I got Cs in and three that are classes I haven't taken yet? Would this be sufficient, assuming I got all A's?

You can apply as is this coming cycle to DO. If you want to really increase your chances, I'd say like 5 retakes in the summer/fall and you'll have invites all over the place. Don't waste time and money for pretty letters after your name when you can sooner and cheaper have the job and income.

 

[Temperature101]

Yes. There is a question on the primary regarding previous application and/or matriculation into an MD program. There is also a space to elaborate.

This is kind of dicey... Should someone answer 'yes' to this question if that person was part of a BS/MD program, but never reached the MD part of it. I thought that question was more about schools that want to know if an applicant was at one time a med student (MD/DO).

 

[Catalystik]

Just throwing it out there--how much post-bacc credit do you think would be necessary to prove I can handle it? I'm trying to think of how many I could squeeze in before the 2015 application cycle, as well as how much I could afford. Maybe five courses, two being re-takes of the classes I got Cs in and three that are classes I haven't taken yet? Would this be sufficient, assuming I got all A's?

That might be fine for DO. For MD, IMO you should think more along the lines of 30 credit hours with a GPA of 3.7+, namely two full-time semesters. It took you years to dig this hole for yourself, so don't think it's going to be a quick fix. YMMV.

You might figure out what that would do for your GPAs.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Depending on how the bs md program is set up, you probably don't have to say you were already accepted to the md program. I know for some programs like this you just get a guaranteed acceptence but you still have to submit an amcas app with the caveat that you don't interview and you apply to one school. In this case I would say not to mention getting accepted.

Also what school is your masters at? You might be able to jump into their postbacc program is they have one. Keep in mind this is all probably really expensive. I wonder if community colleges can cut it for one semester. Also look into temple acms post bacc

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

...also great work getting yourself back together op. It sounds like you've grown a lot and matured through hard work and following your passions. That is very commendable!

 

[gyngyn]

This is kind of dicey... Should someone answers 'yes' to this question if that person was part of a BS/MD program, but never reached the MD part of it. I thought that question was more about schools that want to know if an applicant was at one time a med student (MD/DO).

Under Additional Application Information it merely states:
Previous Application: No
Previous Matriculation: No
Med School:
Matric Year:
Explanation of Reapplication: