Bush to offer smallpox vaccine to all Americans

[Zoobaby]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Bush is going to announce tomorrow that the smallpox vaccine will be made available to all Americans who want it. As future docs, what do you guys think? Will you sign up?

 

[shamthis]

There's been alot of debate about mercury biproducts in vaccines; I guess autism may be a result of mercury poisoning in children who received vaccines at some 'critical age' for brain development. I wonder what these new mass-produceable vaccines contain in terms of 'impurities'...

Anytime you develop a drug and make it readily available to the millions...be a little weary, that's all.

Chalk one up for "I don't know".

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by shamthis
There's been alot of debate about mercury biproducts in vaccines; I guess autism may be a result of mercury poisoning in children who received vaccines at some 'critical age' for brain development. I wonder what these new mass-produceable vaccines contain in terms of 'impurities'...

Anytime you develop a drug and make it readily available to the millions...be a little weary, that's all.

Chalk one up for "I don't know".

This one will contain mercury based preservatives. Actually, Eli Lilly (sp?) the company who produced it is getting some form of legal immunity (as written into the Homeland Security Act) vs. people suing them for any bad reactions to the vaccine. The deal was that the US govt asked Lilly to produce 200+ million doses and they didn't really want to do it because 1 in 1000 people will get pretty sick, and one in 1,000,000 will die.

So, if you get sick or die you can't sue the manufacturer (which is pretty rare) because of a deal the govt cut to protect them. It was either no responsibility for the side effects, or no vaccine.

 

[shamthis]

you've obviously looked into this further than I have...thanks for the insight ...your research bolsters my 'i dont know'

 

[Zoobaby]

Wow the NOs are leading. I have to say I'm a bit surprised.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

I hate to say this, but my biggest concern is that little scar that you get on your arm when you get the shot. I don't want the scar. Can you get is on your butt instead, because mine is already pretty ugly?

 

[gogiants]

well i work at a big hospital in sf and they are polling us about our feelings about the vaccine because the uc's are thinking of offering it to us (in case you guys haven't heard there are some threats of terrorism this month at sf hospitals--great). one of the negatives, you have to try and arrange to be in no contact with patients for 3 weeks after you get it. just doesn't look like a lot of fun.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Zoobaby
Wow the NOs are leading. I have to say I'm a bit surprised.

Im not, some of the vaccines that were given to soldiers before the Gulf War are suspected to have caused Gulf War Sickness. There have already been warnings about how unsafe the smallpox vaccine is. Ill take my chances with biological warfare rather than a legally-shielded from lawsuit Big Pharma.

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Im not, some of the vaccines that were given to soldiers before the Gulf War are suspected to have caused Gulf War Sickness. There have already been warnings about how unsafe the smallpox vaccine is. Ill take my chances with biological warfare rather than a legally-shielded from lawsuit Big Pharma.

But the smallpox vaccine was given to every child born in the US (and lots of other places) for decades. That's pretty much why the bug was "eradicated." The problems are known atleast vs. some of that gulf war stuff that was pretty shady. It's not like it's experimetntal, but it does have its drawbacks.

 

[whatfun]

Here is a very good source of info on smallpox, for those that are interested:

CDC Smallpox Info Page

It has all the basics you need to know about the disease and the vaccine.

In my opinion, there is too much of a frenzy around getting the vaccine to people right now. Actually, the way the disease was irradicated was through "ring immunization" in Africa, where outbreaks were identified and then everyone within a certain radius of the outbreak was immunized. Therefore, not everyone was immunized. Granted, Africa is a bit different, as mobility is not nearly as great there, but because of the relatively long incubation period of the disease and the fact that it is not contagious until the "rash" stage of the disease (by that time, most people are debilitated by the disease), I would think other precautions could be taken besides vaccinating now.

Of course, I'm not an expert on this, but I find it very interesting - something that affects all of us.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Zoobaby
But the smallpox vaccine was given to every child born in the US (and lots of other places) for decades. That's pretty much why the bug was "eradicated." The problems are known atleast vs. some of that gulf war stuff that was pretty shady. It's not like it's experimetntal, but it does have its drawbacks.

Yeah, but the lawsuit protection really bothers me. I know its not experimental, but I feel the chances of a biological attack are less than that of getting really sick because of the vaccine.

I am all for vaccination programs, Im not one of those people. I just think the danger of the side effects plus the lack of legal protections doesnt encourage the utmost safety.

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Yeah, but the lawsuit protection really bothers me.

Amen to that, but I think it's better than having no vaccine available at all.

Just one of those necessary compromises that is hard to make, I guess.

 

[manicmaven]

I'd get it. It's been used for years and I'm in the ER for work quite a bit. Perhaps a bit paranoid, but hell...I'm fairly healthy.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

ok, at the risk of sounding ignorrant, I want to know how these people actually eradicated SP especially when nobody from the 1980's has received the vaccine??

the stats show that half the people in US are not immune to SP. How do they consider that eradicated??? What is the definition of eradicated?

Chalk one up to "NO" because I saw a show on this last night and I don't think I'll be doing this for myself until I know there's a definite scare. The risk outweighs the benefit here.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Tweetie_bird
ok, at the risk of sounding ignorrant, I want to know how these people actually eradicated SP especially when nobody from the 1980's has received the vaccine??

the stats show that half the people in US are not immune to SP. How do they consider that eradicated??? What is the definition of eradicated?

Chalk one up to "NO" because I saw a show on this last night and I don't think I'll be doing this for myself until I know there's a definite scare. The risk outweighs the benefit here.

The reason no one from the 1980s received the smallpox vaccine was because smallpox had been eradicated already (except for a lab at the CDC and in Russia). No need in administering a sorta-dangerous vaccine if the disease is gone.

The lack of immunity in our population to smallpox indicates that it was eradicated, because if smallpox was still around there would either be immunity or an epidemic of death or somesuch.

Smallpox still showeds up ocassionally in 3rd world countries until 1978, but for the it is considered naturally eradicated, which is why they dont vaccinate, which is why no one has resistance. Makes it an ideal target for bioterrorism if you stole a vial from Russia.

 

[aquaboy]

Smallpox has been eradicated since the early 1980's when the last case was in Somalia or Uganda. There have been no cases of smallpox in the world since then. Cases DO NOT sporadically pop up in 3rd world countries even though there are smallpox like diseases that cause similar symptoms. Even though the whole world wasn't vaccinated many people were protected by "herd immunity" and the virus has been eradicated. From what I understand they use an attenuated Varicella Major vaccine (smallpox is caused by Varicella minor). The only way to get the disease these days is because someone has released it as a biological weapon.😀

 

[Tweetie_bird]

oh I see. Makes more sense now. So I suppose the first time it actually started getting eradicated is because of the vaccines to begin with. And once people stopped getting it, they stopped vaccinating....thus..now half of us are not immune to it. Makes sense. Thanks Gleeve and Aqua. 🙂 You two rock!

 

[aquaboy]

I will correct myself after some studying on the topic. The last case was in Somalia in 1977. The vaccine is made by using Vaccinia (not Varicella major) which is still a mamber of the Poxviridae family. 15 people out of 1 million vaccinated will contract the disease. 1-2 people out of 1 million vaccinated will die from the vaccination. One case is a worldwwide health emergency so Gleevec isn't totally correct about cases popping up in 3rd world countries. From my own personal experience, after spending 2 years in S. America I have seen that many people have permanent scars on their shoulders from the vaccine (huge scab forms after they poke your arm many times with a needle). It only gives limited immunity (about 7 years) and so those that were vaccinated back in the 70's are no longer immune. I am debating on whether or not to get it and if I go to school in a major metropolitan area I think I will get it because the risk is greater. The jury is still out on this one!🙄

 

[gogiants]

actually, first time immunity (given by a vaccine) is only good for about 2-5 years, so not great. on the plus side, sp vaccination is fairly effective even when given up to 4 days after exposure. i think this casts in doubt slightly the necessity of getting everyone vaccinated ahead of time. i'm actually real interested in this right now because we are having a conference on it next week at my work (ucsf) so i'll let you know if i find out anything interesting.

 

[Megalofyia]

I was under the impression that immunity wasn't guarunteed if you should happen to still get smallpox that your case would be more serious because you got the vaccine.
I'm not keen on the idea of the vaccine because I also have an immunocompromised brother and I would want him to inadvertently get infected. I realise I could stay away from him for 3 weeks.. but I'm thinking about when or if the vaccine becomes more widely distributed.
I wish there was something else that could be done that could just prevent smallpox contamination from even happening.

 

[PLD]

Smallpox "officially" only exists in Russia and at the CDC. However, it is public knowledge that the smallpox in Russia was moved around a bit, and it was even found by U.S. agents at a laboratory known as Vector. They were secretly trying to move the smallpox around. Also, Australian scientists have genetically mutated mouse smallpox with an interleukin-4 gene that caused normally-immunized-to-smallpox mice to die 100% of the time. If these naturally immune mice were to receive additional immunizations, they still had a 60% mortality rate. This data was published in February 2001, so anyone/terrorist has this data. To common knowledge, this quite simple technique of splicing IL-4 into the smallpox DNA hasn't been tried on human smallpox yet, but it makes you wonder: Will a vaccine even work on smallpox that has been mutated at the hands of a molecular biologist? I hope we don't have to find out.😕

 

[Woots32]

I have no idea what I'll do. Part of it depends on where I'll be going to med school. If I'm in a large urban area (like Chicago) or the major medical center for a particular region, I might go ahead and get the vaccine because the risk of exposure through terrorism - the only way I think someone would realisticly contract smallpox - would be greater.

And I while I was listening to the radio the other day, they were discussing the procedure in case of a confirmed case or outbreak of small pox. They were saying that a rudimentary plan was in place, but that there's a severe shortage of medical personnel qualified to administer the vaccine as well as a lack of facilities to accomodate the rush of people. I know that medical people (hopefully students too 😉 ) will probably be among the first to be vaccinated, but it's scary to think of the possibility that people may not be able to get the shot in time. 🙁

 

[tristate]

Last I heard, the vaccine will be given to health care workers (so chances are when you become a doctor, you will probably end up getting the vaccine anyway) and that the general public will then be offered the vaccine on a voluntary basis.

One major concern that comes with the vaccine is the side effects. And granted the scar isn't cosmetically pleasing, that should be the least of your concerns.

 

[ehop24]

I dont think the issue should be whether or not to get it. We spent incredible amounts of time and money to rid the world of this deadly threat. Millions of lives have been spared in the 25 years that smallpox has been eradicated. When we begin to administer this vaccine, smallpox will once again begin to infect humans. People will die. Is the CDC going to quarantine every vaccinated individual until they are certain that they are not infected? heck no. Smallpox will spread. It's inevitable.

NOBODY is certain that terrorist threats actually have this virus to use as a weapon.

But, to satisfy political paranoia, we will reintroduce this virus into natural circulation.

sounds to me like our paranoia is doing terrorists a favor.

And this isnt just a US issue. If smallpox is reintroduced, it WILL travel to other continents. How do we contain it when we only vaccinated in the US?

I think that the decision to reintroduce this killer onto earth is one of the worst decisions our country can make. prove that someone has it, and i'll stand back.

But without proof, why not just fine tune our ring vaccination response?

There's no reason for us to knowingly let this killer loose.

Does anyone agree?

 

[Megalofyia]

I am in agreement with you, ehop24!

 

[shamthis]

ehop--- that is an interesting and apocalyptic view. I never thought about it that way--- neat, thanks.

 

[BartbikerW]

I work at an ER in one of the major hospitals in the chicagoland and we are being offered an option to participate in the vaccination. In my oppinion I will just wait and see how people will react to the vaccine. Also I am not that worried because I only work on the weekends and also because you can still take the vaccine 4 days after expostion to the virus, and it should still be effective. I am just not too comfortable taking the vaccine right now, and not scared enough of the terrorist threat, but this is just me. 🙂

 

[BobbyDylanFan]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Im not, some of the vaccines that were given to soldiers before the Gulf War are suspected to have caused Gulf War Sickness. There have already been warnings about how unsafe the smallpox vaccine is. Ill take my chances with biological warfare rather than a legally-shielded from lawsuit Big Pharma.

I'm actually working on this as a research assistant at Boston University. There are two sides to the story, one, offered by one of the people in charge of reviewing the grant I am working under: That the amount of people "sick" is not uncommon compared to previous wars. It is just more people are noticing it this time because of the very few casualties encountered with the Gulf War. People didn't say anything when soldiers came back from other US wars (and other missions) because of the massive amount of casulties,deaths, contributing to the overall psychological disturbance of a soldier.

On the other hand we are finding that when mice are giving physostigmine bromide (PB), the acetylchoinesterase inhibitor used in miliatary vaccines, then stressed (various methods) there is a subtle increase in activation of stress related protein kinases.

 

[BobbyDylanFan]

Originally posted by PLD
Smallpox "officially" only exists in Russia and at the CDC. However, it is public knowledge that the smallpox in Russia was moved around a bit, and it was even found by U.S. agents at a laboratory known as Vector. They were secretly trying to move the smallpox around. Also, Australian scientists have genetically mutated mouse smallpox with an interleukin-4 gene that caused normally-immunized-to-smallpox mice to die 100% of the time. If these naturally immune mice were to receive additional immunizations, they still had a 60% mortality rate. This data was published in February 2001, so anyone/terrorist has this data. To common knowledge, this quite simple technique of splicing IL-4 into the smallpox DNA hasn't been tried on human smallpox yet, but it makes you wonder: Will a vaccine even work on smallpox that has been mutated at the hands of a molecular biologist? I hope we don't have to find out.😕

A researcher at U Chicago who is working on anthrax has already mutated anthrax so it is resistant. I found this during a lab meeting when I was a summer student at Northewestern. The U Chicago researcher was asking some of the calmodulin experts at Northwestern for some advice as how to procede with his project.😱

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by ehop24
I dont think the issue should be whether or not to get it. We spent incredible amounts of time and money to rid the world of this deadly threat. Millions of lives have been spared in the 25 years that smallpox has been eradicated. When we begin to administer this vaccine, smallpox will once again begin to infect humans. People will die. Is the CDC going to quarantine every vaccinated individual until they are certain that they are not infected? heck no. Smallpox will spread. It's inevitable.

NOBODY is certain that terrorist threats actually have this virus to use as a weapon.

But, to satisfy political paranoia, we will reintroduce this virus into natural circulation.

sounds to me like our paranoia is doing terrorists a favor.

And this isnt just a US issue. If smallpox is reintroduced, it WILL travel to other continents. How do we contain it when we only vaccinated in the US?

I think that the decision to reintroduce this killer onto earth is one of the worst decisions our country can make. prove that someone has it, and i'll stand back.

But without proof, why not just fine tune our ring vaccination response?

There's no reason for us to knowingly let this killer loose.

Does anyone agree?

NB: The smallpox vaccine contains a live virus that is RELATED to smallpox (not the actual bug), but that is much MUCH less dangerous. The smallpox virus is not being reintroduced by vaccinations.

 

[PLD]

We will not be introducing smallpox back into the human population if the immunizations begin. The immunizations are vaccinia, which is smallpox's cousin. In effect, we will supplant smallpox in an effort to allow our immune system to see something similar to smallpox.
Therefore, we will not be reintroducing smallpox. however, scientists began looking for alternatives to vaccination in 2001 by creating "frankenstein" and thawing smallpox at the CDC. The idea was to create a possible antibiotic ,or something???, because people with eczema, pregnant women, and young children cannot receive the smallpox immunization.
So, the monster has been let out and experimented with on monkeys, but we will not have to worry about reintroducing it back into the human population through vaccinations, I think. I am definitely no expert, I just find this subject interesting. My 2 cents.

 

[whatfun]

It appears there is lots of misinformation about smallpox and the vaccine. Again, I think all of us should read the CDC website on smallpox. It's a great resource to learn about the disease and the vaccine.

CDC Smallpox Site

Secondly, concerning what Woots said with his concerns about the reaction system to a smallpox outbreak, I really think that's the ultimate problem. I heard a presentation by the bioterrorism director for the Chicago Dept. of Public Health. They are really the implementers of local emergency reaction plans for bioterrorism. Her presentation was very general and seemed to lack specifics of how response would be coordinated, and what issues could arise during response, to such a situation. We need more planning and research on this front.

As said before, even if we vaccinate everyone, what if a new strain of smallpox is used that renders the vaccine ineffective? Even with health care workers vaccinated, the ultimate containment of a possible outbreak depends on an emergency plan.

 

[CamelJockey]

I'll get it. No doubts. How can you treat a patient with SP w/o it??? Absurd.

 

[PluckyDuk8]

Just adding my two cents...I volunteered this summer in Israel with their public ambulance service. I know that Israel has already vaccinated all their emergency services personnel, but as far as I know they have decided not to vaccinate the public at this point. While we shouldn't compare the amount of danger Israel is in in comparison to the USA, because the type of danger is somewhat different, it would be interesting to see the results of their vaccinating their EMS personnel. Here's an article from the Jerusalem Post:

Smallpox vaccine given to 12,000 first responders
Byline: JUDY SIEGEL
Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002

More than 12,000 'first responders' in the event of a biochemical warfare attack have already been vaccinated against smallpox, the Health Ministry announced Monday.

The ministry announced a few months ago that some 15,000 first responders would initially be vaccinated. In the coming weeks, those vaccinated will donate plasma with antibodies to create a special smallpox vaccine for protecting people with weak immune systems, without serious side effects.

The campaign includes emergency teams in hospitals, health funds, Magen David Adom, Hessed Shel Emet (victims of terrorism identification squad), firemen, and others. The ministry is preparing information kits for the general public and for professionals trained for dealing with such an emergency.

Spokesman Ido Hadari said the ministry is in touch with health ministries around the world about the possibility of those countries immunizing people as well, as any attack in Israel could easily spread to other locales if victims are in public places with large crowds present.

So far, only four Israelis who have received the smallpox vaccinations have suffered side effects. Two were hospitalized with mild symptoms and quickly discharged.

There was a baby boy who was affected when he came into contact with the vaccination spot on his mother's arm, and a woman whose husband was vaccinated was also affected.

The ministry stressed that anyone who is vaccinated receives an information booklet on how to behave during the days after receiving the vaccine.

 

[PluckyDuk8]

Whoops, I forgot to say, I will probably be returning to volunteer again with the ambulance service this summer, so I would seriously consider getting it. That, and the fact that I will be entering med school in Chicago, so better safe than sorry.

 

[LoneCoyote]

Wow, so I just read the CDC site and realized I am in the group for whom it is not recommended since I have had eczema, and still have it off and on. I wasn't really sure whether I would want the vaccine or not, but I guess the decision is now pretty obvious. I had also read in the newspaper that people in the cetegories that should not get it can pick up side effects simply by being around people who have had the vaccine and are in their first 3 weeks and healing from it. This could be of some concern if most people in the hospital I am at get the vaccine. Does anyone know anything else about the risks with picking up side effects from other who have been vaccinated?

 

[BobbyDylanFan]

Originally posted by azpremed
Wow, so I just read the CDC site and realized I am in the group for whom it is not recommended since I have had eczema, and still have it off and on. I wasn't really sure whether I would want the vaccine or not, but I guess the decision is now pretty obvious. I had also read in the newspaper that people in the cetegories that should not get it can pick up side effects simply by being around people who have had the vaccine and are in their first 3 weeks and healing from it. This could be of some concern if most people in the hospital I am at get the vaccine. Does anyone know anything else about the risks with picking up side effects from other who have been vaccinated?

AZPremed:

We're in the same boat kid, fellow eczema surviver. After all these years you'd think they would have a cure for it.

Lets hope we don't have to even make the choice of to get the vaccine or not.

Keep on keepin on!!

 

[brownman24]

I am getting my MPH in microbial diseases now, and in a few of my classes we have talked about the possibility of weaponizing smallpox. In my non-expert opinion, i think it is a definite possibility.

When there was suppposed to be only the two samples in the world, one in atlanta and one in moscow, soviets were doing some testing on how to make it more virulent. I would bet that our government did some as well.

There is a book about the soviet program written by the guy who was in charge of it, after he came here when the soviet union fell. His name is Ken Alibek and the book is called "Biohazard". i started reading it this summmer, but once i started with secondaries and then classes, I never got to finish it.

So my concern is, if there are more pathogenic weaponized versions of the virus, would our vaccines work agianst them?
I bet that researchers who are looking to make smallpox a better killer could change the outer surface proteins on a smallpox virus enough so that they would not be recognized by the antibodies induced by our vaccines.

This is what freaks me out.