Busy CT Surg fellow here. Have any questions? Ask away!

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Buzz Me

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Thought I'd finally listen to Winged Scapula and start a question-and-answer thread about my experiences so far as a first-year cardiothoracic fellow. I know there are those of you out there considering either the integrated I6 programs, or applying for the traditional fellowships.

So ask away! Obviously I can't give certain details about my exact program but will otherwise be as blunt and brutally honest as possible.

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Great thing Buzz!

Disclaimer : junior GS resident in Canada here

I'll start off :

- Are there Thoracic-only fellowships in US and how competitive are those? (not interested in cardiac, in Canada Cardiac Surg programs are essentially all I6, fellowships in cardiac are inexistent, and I6-Thoracic-only don't exist). How research heavy one has to be? Do you absolutely need to do an elective in the institution targeted for fellow?

- I am convinced that you do not regret the time when you were working under the diaphragm. Do you feel sometimes that you somewhat "wasted" all this time learning about things such as hepatic transplant, the surgical management of Crohns etc.? Was the sacrifice of most of the clinical (and not technical) knowledge acquired during these last 4-5 years a "Con" in your decision-making process towards going to CTS?
 
Thought I'd finally listen to Winged Scapula and start a question-and-answer thread about my experiences so far as a first-year cardiothoracic fellow. I know there are those of you out there considering either the integrated I6 programs, or applying for the traditional fellowships.

So ask away! Obviously I can't give certain details about my exact program but will otherwise be as blunt and brutally honest as possible.

I think I have read the vast majority of the information available on the different I6 program's website, blogs, etc.... With that said, I do not have a lot of very specific questions other than I would love to hear your thoughts on CT surgery, CT fellowship, and I6 VS. 5+2.

The only specific question I have is, how are the fellowship opportunities after the I6 VS. the 5+2? If one wants to do congenital CT, is either route preferred by the various fellowship programs?
Thanks a lot for doing this.
 
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Thought I'd finally listen to Winged Scapula and start a question-and-answer thread about my experiences so far as a first-year cardiothoracic fellow.

:laugh:

Its about damn time!

Thank you for doing this. What I was really suggesting was a thread in the Pre-Allo a la "Ask a Surgery/Neurosurgery Resident Anything" which are immensely popular given the lack of information in that forum and for pre-meds.

What are your thoughts about posting it there or posting a link to this thread there? Of course, the latter would mean that we would have pre-meds posting here and that would require some patience and kid gloves from our regulars. IMHO it would be a good way to mentor our younger colleagues.
 
i think i have read the vast majority of the information available on the different i6 program's website, blogs, etc.... With that said, i do not have a lot of very specific questions other than i would love to hear your thoughts on ct surgery, ct fellowship, and i6 vs. 5+2.

The only specific question i have is, how are the fellowship opportunities after the i6 vs. The 5+2? If one wants to do congenital ct, is either route preferred by the various fellowship programs?
Thanks a lot for doing this.

+1
 
Is the phrase "Busy CT surg fellow" redundant?
 
Thank you for doing this. What I was really suggesting was a thread in the Pre-Allo a la "Ask a Surgery/Neurosurgery Resident Anything" which are immensely popular given the lack of information in that forum and for pre-meds.

Ah. Hmmm...yeah, I see how that'd be more helpful to more people. OK, can you close this thread and I'll restart it in the Pre-Allo forum?
 
So are we still on the same thread and waiting for "Buzz Me?"

;)
 
I too would absolutely LOVE for this thread to take off. Thanks in advance Buzz Me!
 
What cases are you doing?
Does your program let you operate early or are you still first assisting?
What is your call schedule like?
How often do you violate the 80hr work week?
What were your favorite programs during interviews?
Are you cardiac or thoracic, or both?
Are you in a traditional or I6 program?

That enough to start?
 
Would you say CT surgery is exciting, do you get an adrenaline rush? Or is it very boring and methodical?
 
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We are still waiting for buzz to create the thread in pre-Allo. Or I can simply move this one there and change the title. I will send him a message and ask what he prefers.

This thread seems much more fitting for the general surgery residents forum, as Pre-meds are so far removed from CT surgery, or picking their respective speciaties. They would benefit more from Medical students answering questions about Med school.
 
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This thread seems much more fitting for the general surgery residents forum, as Pre-medal are so far removed from CT surgery, or picking their respective speciaties. They would benefit more from Medical students answering questions about Med school.

The point of this thread (as it was proposed to Buzz and other staff members) was to have a "Day in the Life" thread in the HS forums and to have a "Ask a <insert specialty> resident anything in the Pre-Med forums. The "Ask a Surgery Resident anything" thread by TheProwler was extremely well received, as are the Neurosurg, etc, which is why I asked if anyone else was interested in doing it.

I understand your perspective but pre-med students obsess over such things and its a nice way to give them some information that medical students won't have.
 
The point of this thread (as it was proposed to Buzz and other staff members) was to have a "Day in the Life" thread in the HS forums and to have a "Ask a <insert specialty> resident anything in the Pre-Med forums. The "Ask a Surgery Resident anything" thread by TheProwler was extremely well received, as are the Neurosurg, etc, which is why I asked if anyone else was interested in doing it.

I understand your perspective but pre-med students obsess over such things and its a nice way to give them some information that medical students won't have.

Makes sense :thumbup:
 
I think this gives one how busy a CT Fellow is....it's been weeks since he's posted on here and he has 1600 posts after seven years!
 
I'll take a stab since my case is delayed:
Cases range from bread and butter cabg's and single valves at the VA to huge bombs for endocarditis, thoacoabdominals, arches, frozen elephant trunks, and transplants at the university, our lung stuff is pretty cut and dry even at the university.
We operate, watch one with the attending then its your show even for the hairy stuff. There's no other way to learn, period. At one program I interviewed at they said the fellows did the exposures for TAAAs but didn't do the operation, that sounded pretty impressive to me then but now, it's not adequate. So look out for that. There's no substitute for throwing every stitch at hard angles in tight spaces under a time crunch. You want to do it all.
No adrenalin rush.
Busy as hell q4 call, q4 back up call for organ procurement.
I liked my program (to remain nameless) ranked it 1. Also likes UVa and penn.
Cardiac track, traditional
Violate the 80 hour work week never on paper.
 
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Sorry guys...busy few weeks and lost Internet access for a while! I'll answer as honestly and bluntly as I can, bearing in mind I can't reveal any program-specific details.

What cases are you doing?
Does your program let you operate early or are you still first assisting?
What is your call schedule like?
How often do you violate the 80hr work week?
What were your favorite programs during interviews?
Are you cardiac or thoracic, or both?
Are you in a traditional or I6 program?

(1) Cardiac - lots of CABGs, valves (aortic valve replacements, mitral valve repairs/replacements, tricuspid valve repairs), ascending/descending aortic aneurysms, then some less frequent cases - arch aneurysms, type A dissections, percutaneous aortic valves, atrial myxomas. Thoracic - VATS wedges/segmentectomies/lobectomies, lap Nissens/hiatal hernia repairs, lap Heller myotomies, Ivor Lewis esophagectomies, mediastinal mass resections (mainly thymomas), pleurodesis/decortication. Less commonly, extrapleural pneumonectomies, pleurectomies (both for mesothelioma)
(2) Slower, more graduated operative autonomy in cardiac at the university hospital, more autonomy at the county/VA hospitals. Thoracic autonomy has been great from the beginning (except for the robotic cases), though that's also because I did many months of thoracic rotations during Gen Surg residency. So for the hands-on cardiac attendings, they'll scrub in as I'm completing the sternotomy, and leave once the sternal wires are in. For the more hands-off attendings, they'll scrub in when I've cannulated and am ready to go on bypass, and will scrub out as I'm coming off bypass.
(3) Call varies depending on which hospital you're covering - anywhere from 4-6 in-house calls a month to home call every day (except for your weekends off).
(4) Officially? 80 hours a week. In reality? I keep my own log, so have the exact numbers...my hours have varied from 90 to 120 a week.
(5) Can't say since I don't want to indicate what geographic region I'm in. Sorry.
(6) Thoracic track.
(7) Traditional fellowship program (after Gen Surg residency).
 
Would you say CT surgery is exciting, do you get an adrenaline rush? Or is it very boring and methodical?

It's awesome! I'm biased, obviously, but think operating in the chest - working with the heart, lungs, esophagus, aorta - is the most exciting place in the entire body.

Nothing like putting a patient on bypass, cutting open their heart, fixing a "bunch of stuff," sewing it back together and then weaning them off bypass to get the adrenaline going!

If any of you have ever gotten to do a cardiac case in trauma...or done an ER thoracotomy...then you know what I'm talking about. :D
 
It's awesome! I'm biased, obviously, but think operating in the chest - working with the heart, lungs, esophagus, aorta - is the most exciting place in the entire body.

Nothing like putting a patient on bypass, cutting open their heart, fixing a "bunch of stuff," sewing it back together and then weaning them off bypass to get the adrenaline going!

If any of you have ever gotten to do a cardiac case in trauma...or done an ER thoracotomy...then you know what I'm talking about. :D

Thanks to both you and Dynx for putting this thread out there, good to see that people are interested in this fascinating field.

I know no one wants to reveal where they're at specifically and for a lot of good reasons....but as someone who has drank the kool-aid/sold my soul or whatever and will be applying for CT in the next cycle (less than a year away!) I have to ask in general about the programs out there.

Where are people applying these days, who are the go to places for solid training?

It seems like about half the people I ask say to hit up the standard places: Cleveland Clinic, MGH, the Brigham, Baylor/Texas Heart, Cedars Sinai, Mayo, MD Anderson, Sloan-Kettering. The other half will say that those are all great places....if you like holding retractors for famous attendings and their super fellows, maybe you could have a bright future as a CT dermatologist who specializes in skin closure. People from these places will call bull**** on that, but obviously have a vested interest in doing so.

Dynx mentioned UVa, what about Emory, Duke, UCLA, Northwestern, Cornell, Hopkins? There's a lot of programs out there and it seems like the field is still a buyers market, not really a lot of good info out there as to where to buy! I remember applying to general surgery and every program has the best operative experience, happiest residents, least amount of call, best pay, hottest nurses, and eat steak for lunch everyday if you ask them

So who is right? Knowing what you guys know now:

1) where would you apply in general and what are some things to look for in the programs?
2) how many interviews would you do?
3) any other general advice for those of us committed and gearing up for the process?
 
1) where would you apply in general and what are some things to look for in the programs?
2) how many interviews would you do?
3) any other general advice for those of us committed and gearing up for the process?

(1) I would ask yourself if you have any strict requirements - location/geography? Some people need to be close to family, or demand warmer weather, etc. CT is not competitive enough that you can't be a little more choosy, as opposed to, say, Peds Surg. It's competitive at the top programs, but some of these locations (e.g. the Brigham) have other nearby programs that aren't as tough to get into (e.g. BID). Is being at a large program (3-4 fellows, 3 years) important? Do you want to go into academics, and want a big-name program chairman to write you a letter in the future? Are you interested in research?

(2) Depends on how competitive your app is. Depends on the caliber of programs you're interested in. When I was on the interview trail, most applicants went to 8-12 interviews.

(3) Remember that your future career plans may impact whether or not you go to a place that has "tracks" (Cardiac vs. Thoracic), and may determine if you want a 2-year program vs. 3-year. Going into academics, you need some sort of "niche," and that's tough in just 2 years. Most will do an additional superfellowship in something like VAD/Txp, aortas, endovascular work, VATS, robotics, etc. Also remember it's damn hard to train to be a fully independent cardiac surgeon in just 2 years - think about how different cardiac surgery is from general surgery, and how different post-op management is. Thoracic surgery is a little easier, especially the foregut stuff (which is like Gen Surg).
 
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1) What is the general talk between your colleagues about the future of cardiothoracic surgery? Generally optimistic or pessimistic? What do older CT surgeons say about the development of the CT specialty?

2) In the future, how do you see volumes in the frequent procedures change?

3) What basic science subjects do you think are important in your field? I understand cardiovascular and respiratory physiology is of great importance..

4) If you would not have become a CT surgeon, what would you then be?

5) Can one generalize and say if CT is a IMG-friendly specialty or not?

Thanks for great thread :)
 
1) What is the general talk between your colleagues about the future of cardiothoracic surgery? Generally optimistic or pessimistic? What do older CT surgeons say about the development of the CT specialty?

2) In the future, how do you see volumes in the frequent procedures change?

3) What basic science subjects do you think are important in your field? I understand cardiovascular and respiratory physiology is of great importance..

4) If you would not have become a CT surgeon, what would you then be?

5) Can one generalize and say if CT is a IMG-friendly specialty or not?

Thanks for great thread :)

Something I wrote in an early post (in another thread)...

(1) For the vast majority of graduates these days, jobs aren't anywhere near as hard to come by as they were 5-10 years ago. Of course, it also depends on location, academics vs. private practice, and whether you're interested in cardiac vs. thoracic vs. both vs. congenital. Some people do an additional year of superfellowship if they want to do academics and need a "niche," e.g. aortas, or VADs/Txp, or minimally invasive esophagectomies, or robotics. Some 2-year programs don't (and, quite honestly, can't) fully prepare you to be an independently operating cardiac attending in those 24 months. From the people I've talked to, and the graduating fellows here, and the graduating fellows in all 7 years where I went to residency? No probs in finding jobs.

(2) Thoracic will stay similar, though obviously the trend is towards VATS/robotic everything. Around the country, most lobectomies are still being done open (VATS is only really taking off in select academic centers), and esophagectomies are done open (transhiatal or Ivor Lewis) in most cases as well. But as people become more comfortable with minimally invasive techniques, these trends will change. Cardiac is slowly moving towards minimally invasive cases as well - mini-hemisternotomies for AVRs, R mini-thoracotomies for mitral valve operations, L mini-thoracotomies for MIDCABs, robotics for LIMA takedowns, mitrals or myxomas. There'll be more hybrid aortic work with Vasc Surg as well. And then there's the whole field of percutaneous (transfemoral or transapical) aortic valve stents with Cardiology (currently, the Medtronic CoreValve or Edwards Sapien valve).

(3) Cardiac and pulmonary physiology are obviously very important. Immunology is key if you're considering transplant, and embryology is important if you're considering Congenital. Critical care principles/fundamentals are always being used daily.

(4) Hmmm...maybe a teacher of some kind? There's nothing else in medicine I love more than cardiothoracic.

(5) CT Surg is still relatively uncompetitive (except for the top programs, obviously), so you'll find more IMGs/FMGs than in other more competitive surgical subspecialties, such as Peds, Plastics, Surg Onc, etc. If you're looking to apply, it would behoove you to check the current fellow list at various programs and see which ones have a track record of matching IMGs/FMGs.
 
I have no questions to ask Buzz, but I really wanted to thank you for making this thread.
 
I'm curious to know about your life outside of work and how much of a struggle it is or isn't to find enough time/energy to devote to things like family, a significant other, hobbies, traveling, sleep, etc.
 
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I'm curious to know about your life outside of work and how much of a struggle it is or isn't to find enough time/energy to devote to things like family, a significant other, hobbies, traveling, sleep, etc.

It's tough. CT Surg tends to self-select for people who function well without a lot of sleep - I go to bed around 11-12 most nights and get up at 4:45. You have to be able to work with brutal efficiency while being tired most days. I try to read something medical (journal, textbook, etc.) for 30 minutes each day, eat dinner with my wife whenever possible (sometimes this is rare on any given week), exercise when I can. Golden weekends every 2-4 weeks help.

We get four weeks of vacation a year - one of those weeks can be used to attend an all-expenses-paid CT Surg conference if we'd like. That's one more week than I got in residency, so I'm happy.

Is CT Surg exhausting? Sure, of course it is - and I'm sure it will be no matter what program you go to. But I expected that, and was prepared for it. I had a brutally exhausting residency program, so was very used to the long hours and long cases.
 
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- Are there Thoracic-only fellowships in US and how competitive are those? (not interested in cardiac, in Canada Cardiac Surg programs are essentially all I6, fellowships in cardiac are inexistent, and I6-Thoracic-only don't exist). How research heavy one has to be? Do you absolutely need to do an elective in the institution targeted for fellow?

- I am convinced that you do not regret the time when you were working under the diaphragm. Do you feel sometimes that you somewhat "wasted" all this time learning about things such as hepatic transplant, the surgical management of Crohns etc.? Was the sacrifice of most of the clinical (and not technical) knowledge acquired during these last 4-5 years a "Con" in your decision-making process towards going to CTS?

Sorry, missed these first few posts!

(1) There are some programs that are "thoracic-only" (e.g. Memorial Sloan-Kettering), but many big programs now have a choice between cardiac track or thoracic track. You just have slightly different requirements for each track in order to be able to sit for your ABTS boards - e.g. thoracic track requires 40 CABGs and 100 lung resections, vs. 80 CABGs and 60 lung resections for the cardiac track. As I mentioned earlier, it's not a super-competitive field (except, of course, at the top programs). On average every year there are around 105-115 spots, and only around 65-80 applicants.

(2) The most important skills I learned during my last two years of residency were in being a senior and chief resident, and managing and running a service. Sure, I probably did way too many non-related cases - but even the Whipples, liver transplants and trauma cases all help (anastomoses, or dealing with sick intra-op patients). But I'm a firm believer than you mature and develop clinical judgement during those critical last two years of Gen Surg and you would miss out on that if you only did a 3+3 program. (That's my own opinion - obviously I'm biased since I went through 7 years of Gen Surg residency.)
 
Where do you see the field in 10 years?

What are the bread and butter surgeries for a CT surgeon out in the real world?

Obviously the salary of a CT surgeon is nowhere near what it used to be during the era of Cooley and DeBakey. That said, I've heard (mostly on SDN) horror stories of CT surgeons only finding jobs where the salary is between 100k and 150k. What would a reasonable expectation for a salary be?

If you were back in medical school, would you choose the I6 route or the traditional one? Is there an advantage in being certified in General Surgery?

(1) I mentioned where I see the future of cardiothoracic in an earlier post - basically moving towards minimally invasive and hybrid approaches.

(2) From word of mouth here and during residency, most new fellowship graduates finding a job in academics start around $200k. Private practice, a little more. Obviously, who knows how accurate these numbers are, but that's what people tell me.

(3) I would do it the same way all over again...I'm a firm believer in the whole Gen Surg approach and system, especially given that I went to a top-heavy residency and would have missed out on a huge amount of cases (and, frankly, operative autonomy) had I just stopped after my PGY-3 year.
 
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Thanks for your answers on my previous questions :)

1) What would you do if you had an interest during medical school in congenital heart diseases but no peds CT surgeons on your school? Hang out with the CT team and tell them about your interest, with the risk of not being considered later because they "know your plans".

2) When talking about research, how specialty relevant does it have to be? If I for example has a PhD in tumor biology would that help out anything if one is interested in the cardiac track? On the one hand, you can see it as it is the findings (which would concern maybe cardiac physiology or something related) of the projects that makes it good and on the other hand one could see the benefits from going through an additional education in science (learning to handle data, info, think critically etc).
 
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1) What would you do if you had an interest during medical school in congenital heart diseases but no peds CT surgeons on your school? Hang out with the CT team and tell them about your interest, with the risk of not being considered later because they "know your plans".

2) When talking about research, how specialty relevant does it have to be? If I for example has a PhD in tumor biology would that help out anything if one is interested in the cardiac track? On the one hand, you can see it as it is the findings (which would concern maybe cardiac physiology or something related) of the projects that makes it good and on the other hand one could see the benefits from going through an additional education in science (learning to handle data, info, think critically etc).

(1) Do you have Peds Cards at your med school? Talk to them, see if you like all that embryo and physiology. If there are Peds Surg attendings, talk to them about some of their cases - they may be doing the PDA ligations, ECMO cases, etc. Otherwise, talk to the adult CT guys and express your interest, see if they can help you network or point you in the right direction.

(2) Research is research. Don't really think the subject matter is all that important (and broad topics like "tumor biology" or "wound healing" or "immunology," etc. are always good) as long as you're productive, publish, present at meetings, network, etc.
 
(1) Do you have Peds Cards at your med school? Talk to them, see if you like all that embryo and physiology. If there are Peds Surg attendings, talk to them about some of their cases - they may be doing the PDA ligations, ECMO cases, etc. Otherwise, talk to the adult CT guys and express your interest, see if they can help you network or point you in the right direction.

(2) Research is research. Don't really think the subject matter is all that important (and broad topics like "tumor biology" or "wound healing" or "immunology," etc. are always good) as long as you're productive, publish, present at meetings, network, etc.

Again. thanks for good answer!

Did not really think of the peds surgeons, bur you're correct about that. There is a quite well-developed ECMO unit here actually.

:)
 
Very nice thread. Good to see an interest in CT surgery.

I went the traditional pathway 5+3 and would reccomend the same. I wish I did more superfellowship in retrospect, but I was too strapped for cash and needed to get a job. The job market is decent and has improved vastly.

Very few 2 year programs can give you the skills to do cardiac unless you go to a first job with a strong senior partner who will mentor you. Of course, there are always a few stars who can pull it off, but this is not the norm.

No matter how good your training is or what super institution you trained at, your first year in practice you will have to adapt to local customs. ie, if your partners all do on pump surgery and you think because you went to emory or whereever they do off pump stuff, you will likely never get a case. To get along, you have to go along
 
Nice to see another CT surg here :)

Are there any big shots in the CT field (quite general, one could categorize them into thoracic, cardiac, congenital etc) right now one could look up at pubmed?

Kinda start to feel like a spammer now :p
 
Are there any big shots in the CT field (quite general, one could categorize them into thoracic, cardiac, congenital etc) right now one could look up at pubmed?

Attendings, you mean? Lots! Glance through the table of contents of the latest issue of Annals of Thoracic Surgery and you'll find a good sampling of current literature.
 
Very nice thread. Good to see an interest in CT surgery.

I went the traditional pathway 5+3 and would reccomend the same. I wish I did more superfellowship in retrospect, but I was too strapped for cash and needed to get a job. The job market is decent and has improved vastly.

Very few 2 year programs can give you the skills to do cardiac unless you go to a first job with a strong senior partner who will mentor you. Of course, there are always a few stars who can pull it off, but this is not the norm.

No matter how good your training is or what super institution you trained at, your first year in practice you will have to adapt to local customs. ie, if your partners all do on pump surgery and you think because you went to emory or whereever they do off pump stuff, you will likely never get a case. To get along, you have to go along

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this, especially in regards to the integrated residencies? It's kind of a nebulous question, I know, but I want to hear your thoughts without me imposing a specific aspect of the differences in training.
 
(2) The most important skills I learned during my last two years of residency were in being a senior and chief resident, and managing and running a service. Sure, I probably did way too many non-related cases - but even the Whipples, liver transplants and trauma cases all help (anastomoses, or dealing with sick intra-op patients). But I'm a firm believer than you mature and develop clinical judgement during those critical last two years of Gen Surg and you would miss out on that if you only did a 3+3 program. (That's my own opinion - obviously I'm biased since I went through 7 years of Gen Surg residency.)

ESU_MD are these your reasons for favoring the traditional pathway as well?

Buzz Me, are you in a 3- or 2-year fellowship?

Thanks for doing this!
 
3-year fellowship.

I've been told that there is a mandate that CV surgeons and cardiologists work together on percutaneous valves. Are you playing well together in the sandbox?;)
 
I've been a die hard fan of CT for a long time, and still am, but my evaluation of the field has become tainted by reality.

Cons:

1)Very very low opportunity for private practice ownership, CT graduates are either hired by a hospital or working in academics. What about those who want to be their own boss? Make partner one day, answer to no one, make their own business decisions? If this is what you want, maybe CT isn't it.

2)The most recent job report on CT I've read stated that 30% of trainees still graduate without a job offer, after 8 years of training? You have to be kidding me! This field is still over saturated.

3)Interventional cardiologists, need I say more? It pains me to say, but that's the future of CT, they have and will continue to take over the field, valvular work will diminish.

4) Lifestyle is one of the worst if not the worst, which is not much of a deterrent for me, but I should at least get compensated well or if not then I should at least be working for myself, have some ownership over my practice, if I'm going to be putting in 90 to 100 hr weeks as an attending, I might a well be doing it for my business, but no read con #1.

5) salary is low, there are more graduates than there are jobs, it's a buyers market, this coupled with the length of training makes CT less attractive

6) integrated programs do not allow you to become board certified in general surgery. There is only one program integrated program I even considered applying to, and that was NYU. The only integrated program that allows you to be general surgery board certified. Why would that be important? If you revisit cons 1-6 you'll understand that having an outlet or a way to bail out is important. General surgeon do quite well and are in demand.

7) CABG will comprise about 90% of what you do, unless you are doing both thoracic and cardiac, or working at a major or top academic center, academia may take it down to 80%.

Pros:

In my humble opinion,

1) There is no surgery more elegant than cardiac surgery.

2) It is one of the most prestigious fields in surgery at least to the non-doctor.

3) The field requires some of the most complex technical abilities in surgery.

4) It opens the door for pediatric Cardiac Surgery which is the pinnacle of all surgery.

As a closing statement, my evaluation of CT surgery has left me with one conclusion, it is a field to go into if you really can't see yourself doing anything else. I mean really really really can't see yourself doing anything else.

My intention isn't to bash the field or anyone in it, as I stated in my opening statement, I am a die hard fan of CT. If anything I stated is inaccurate or incorrect, please educate or correct me.
 
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1)Very very low opportunity for private practice ownership, CT graduates are either hired by a hospital or working in academics. What about those who want to be their own boss? Make partner one day, answer to no one, make their own business decisions? If this is what you want, maybe CT isn't it.

2)The most recent job report on CT I've read stated that 30% of trainees still graduate without a job offer, after 8 years of training? You have to be kidding me! This field is still over saturated.

3)Interventional cardiologists, need I say more? It pains me to say, but that's the future of CT, they have and will continue to take over the field, valvular work will diminish.

4) Lifestyle is one of the worst if not the worst, which is not much of a deterrent for me, but I should at least get compensated well or if not then I should at least be working for myself, have some ownership over my practice, if I'm going to be putting in 90 to 100 hr weeks as an attending, I might a well be doing it for my business, but no read con #1.

5) salary is low, there are more graduates than there are jobs, it's a buyers market, this coupled with the length of training makes CT less attractive

6) integrated programs do not allow you to become board certified in general surgery. There is only one program integrated program I even considered applying to, and that was NYU. The only integrated program that allows you to be general surgery board certified. Why would that be important? If you revisit cons 1-6 you'll understand that having an outlet or a way to bail out is important. General surgeon do quite well and are in demand.

7) CABG will comprise about 90% of what you do, unless you are doing both thoracic and cardiac, or working at a major or top academic center, academia may take it down to 80%.

I will humbly disagree with some of your points...

(1) You may just be looking at big-market cities with powerful academic groups - lots of private practice groups out there who make a killing (1.5-2x the academic salary). And they do both cardiac and thoracic (something you can't really do in academics).

(2) Not sure where you got this data. My own experiences are limited to a big, cardiac-heavy residency program and my current fellowship program...but everyone that wanted a job, got one. In all the years I've been training, of all the fellows I've seen or known graduate, only 6 didn't immediately start a job after their CT fellowship. Two went into Peds CT, one went into an aortic superfellowship, one went into VADs/transplant, one went into a minimally invasive esophagectomy superfellowship and the last guy went into a program as a "junior attending" for 6 months before he became a regular attending there. All of those superfellowship folks kept training by choice, not because they couldn't find a job.

This doesn't, of course, include the non-ACGME fellows (the "international" fellows) who go back home.

(3) Interventional cardiologists are starting to get into the Medtronic CoreValve (still in trials) and Edwards Sapien transfemoral/transapical aortic valve stents. But these hybrid cases still need a cardiac surgeon in the room (you're not just "backing them up"). But that's it. That's really all that's on the horizon...percutaneous mitrals are a long way away. (Mini-mitrals and robotic mitrals are here, though, of course, and only done by cardiac surgeons.)

As more and more data comes out on the superiority of CABG vs. PCI in many patients (see the recent SYNTAX trial), cardiologists will be doing less stents and referring more patients. When insurance/Medicare eventually catch on, they'll stop reimbursing cardiologists for stents/PCIs that aren't indicated...a sure way to change practice behavior.

(4) Lifestyle can be bad. Lots of emergencies. But even the busiest guys don't work 90-100 hours a week. One of the busiest guys here operates four days a week, has clinic the fifth day. If you figure 7a-8p on the four operative days, 8a-4p on the clinic day...even if he rounded for 4 hours each day on Saturday and Sunday and came in for a 6-hour takeback for bleeding once a week, that's still only 74 hours a week. And that's a grossly overexaggerated, overly busy schedule.

As residents/fellows, we easily rack up the hours because we (1) come in very early to round, (2) often stay very, VERY late, and (3) take overnight call. That's how we easily get to 80, 90, 100, 110 hours a week.

(5) Again, not sure where you're getting your salary figures from. While the golden age of cardiac surgery (the 1980s) is over, and people aren't making a million a year anymore...they're not starving nowadays. And this is in academics. In private practice? Double it.

(6) Perhaps. I'm not big on the integrated programs, having gone the traditional route myself. I agree you shouldn't be board-eligible if you skip out on the critical senior/chief resident years of your training.

(7) Depends on the program - most academic cardiac surgeons don't just do CABGs though. Lots of valve work out there...and if you're at one of many centers who specialize in other aspects of cardiac, you may find you're buried in valves or aortas up the wazoo.

YMMV. What type of CT fellowship do you have at your residency program?
 
5) salary is low, there are more graduates than there are jobs, it's a buyers market, this coupled with the length of training makes CT less attractive

Just to put some current perspective on the financial aspect of CT since it has been mentioned several times, the going rate for academic general thoracic or cardiac surgeons fresh out of training is 300+, with some variance for geographic location (these numbers hold true from California to the midwest and the east coast). Many private practice general thoracic and cardiac jobs are starting 325-400 in the first year with 25000 increases for the first couple years and 25000-50000 signing bonuses. This has been the norm last year, this year and likely for years to come. There are always going to be outliers to this but those currently in training and those considering CT should be aware of the current market. Also, anyone interested in CT should be looking at ctsnet.org
 
I will humbly disagree with some of your points...

(1) You may just be looking at big-market cities with powerful academic groups - lots of private practice groups out there who make a killing (1.5-2x the academic salary). And they do both cardiac and thoracic (something you can't really do in academics).

(2) Not sure where you got this data. My own experiences are limited to a big, cardiac-heavy residency program and my current fellowship program...but everyone that wanted a job, got one. In all the years I've been training, of all the fellows I've seen or known graduate, only 6 didn't immediately start a job after their CT fellowship. Two went into Peds CT, one went into an aortic superfellowship, one went into VADs/transplant, one went into a minimally invasive esophagectomy superfellowship and the last guy went into a program as a "junior attending" for 6 months before he became a regular attending there. All of those superfellowship folks kept training by choice, not because they couldn't find a job.

This doesn't, of course, include the non-ACGME fellows (the "international" fellows) who go back home.

http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/89/6/1853.pdf

http://bsurgmed.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/heart-surgeons-not-immune-to-private-practice-squeeze/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003497506008563

Found these with one quick google search, didn't put in the effort to find the original articles and research papers I've read.

As someone who has aspired to do cardiac surgery for a very long time, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate. I do hope your response is representative of the most up to date current CT market. But the most up to date research on the matter doesn't seem to be congruent with your experience.

From your posts on this thread. It seems you fall into the category of those who couldn't see themselves doing anything else and I admire that. The idealist in me believes that all the money and the best lifestyle in the world isn't worth surpassing doing what you love.
 
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I've been a die hard fan of CT for a long time, and still am, but my evaluation of the field has become tainted by reality.

Cons:

1)Very very low opportunity for private practice ownership, CT graduates are either hired by a hospital or working in academics. What about those who want to be their own boss? Make partner one day, answer to no one, make their own business decisions? If this is what you want, maybe CT isn't it.

Not 100% sure about the business side; there are existing private groups that you can join with the hope of making partner. Maybe it's harder to go out and hang your own shingle, though. Perhaps this is related to practice patterns and the ease of longer-range referrals and the courage of our interventional colleagues.

2)The most recent job report on CT I've read stated that 30% of trainees still graduate without a job offer, after 8 years of training? You have to be kidding me! This field is still over saturated.

Not all fellowships are created equal. Similarly, not all integrated residencies are created equal.

3)Interventional cardiologists, need I say more? It pains me to say, but that's the future of CT, they have and will continue to take over the field, valvular work will diminish.

COURAGE
FREEDOM
SYNTAX 5-y follow up

People are starting to listen. Stenting is down since 2006.

Figure 4
http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb128.jsp

People will argue back and forth about the STICH trial, but there was a ton of crossover from OMT to CABG. As-treated analysis: CABG significantly outperformed OMT.

The MitraClip did not have particularly great results in the EVEREST trial.

4) Lifestyle is one of the worst if not the worst, which is not much of a deterrent for me, but I should at least get compensated well or if not then I should at least be working for myself, have some ownership over my practice, if I'm going to be putting in 90 to 100 hr weeks as an attending, I might a well be doing it for my business, but no read con #1.

See response from BuzzMe.

5) salary is low, there are more graduates than there are jobs, it's a buyers market, this coupled with the length of training makes CT less attractive

As far as I know, salaries are coming down across the board. Obama-care is going to make reimbursements even worse...

6) integrated programs do not allow you to become board certified in general surgery. There is only one program integrated program I even considered applying to, and that was NYU. The only integrated program that allows you to be general surgery board certified. Why would that be important? If you revisit cons 1-6 you'll understand that having an outlet or a way to bail out is important. General surgeon do quite well and are in demand.

Interesting. NYU is not an integrated program, but my information may be old; it's a 4+3. There are other 4+3 programs if you are interested in doing more general surgery. My view is that this is most important for someone who has an interest in thoracic surgery. General surgery has applicability to Foregut surgery and VATS.

Other 4+3s I can think of: Massachusetts General Hospital, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Washington University/Barnes-Jewish, Duke, and UVA (has independent, 4+3, and integrated).

7) CABG will comprise about 90% of what you do, unless you are doing both thoracic and cardiac, or working at a major or top academic center, academia may take it down to 80%.

If you're lucky, you can get into more aortic and valve work, and some major academic places will have less than 50% of their volume in CABG.

With respect to valves and cardiologists, the data coming out of Europe is that transcatheter valves are being overutilized. With modest stroke risk and no information on the durability of the valve, it will be tough recommending a transcatheter valve to someone with an STS of 4 or 5%. Partner A was in STS >8%.

Having said that, I would never bet against technology.

Pros:

In my humble opinion,

1) There is no surgery more elegant than cardiac surgery.

2) It is one of the most prestigious fields in surgery at least to the non-doctor.

3) The field requires some of the most complex technical abilities in surgery.

4) It opens the door for pediatric Cardiac Surgery which is the pinnacle of all surgery.

As a closing statement, my evaluation of CT surgery has left me with one conclusion, it is a field to go into if you really can't see yourself doing anything else. I mean really really really can't see yourself doing anything else.

Congenital is pretty nice. If you're concerned about the job market in adult cardiac surgery, though...

My intention isn't to bash the field or anyone in it, as I stated in my opening statement, I am a die hard fan of CT. If anything I stated is inaccurate or incorrect, please educate or correct me.

It's not inaccurate or incorrect. There is so much variability in peoples' experience.
 
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