BYU Students Not Admitted to the U of U?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by OphthalmicMan, Mar 26, 2002.

  1. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    I'm a premedical student at Brigham Young University who is considering going to the University of Utah for medical school. I have a friend who has been accepted to Columbia Med and not the U. My father was accepted to UCSF and Johns Hopkins but not the U, both of which earned their bachelors degrees at Brigham Young University. Does the University of Utah have something against LDS students or students from Brigham Young Univeristy? Any info? Special ideas on how to gain favor there? Thanks.
     
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  3. TSpoon

    TSpoon Member

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    This is covered in several older threads, look for U of U. As for the LDS favor, the senate looked at the admissions policies and noted that there was no bias agains LDS students. There was a large cutoff for white males that was questioned. Lastly, if you are white male you must have a 3.5 sci, 3.5 all oth., and min 30 mcat to get an interview. If any are below this you will not get an interview (this was published in the senates report).

    Hope this helps... I was also rejected without an interview, but was accepted at 5 other schools.
     
  4. jiffy boy

    jiffy boy Member

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    TSpoon,
    The scores that you posted aren't exactly true. I received an interview last month at U of U and my MCAT isn't quite that high. True, I'm still waiting on their decision (keeping my fingers crossed. I should find out next week), but those scores aren't entirely accurate. I am from California, and I don't know if that has any bearing, but I just thought I'd let you know that you don't have to have a 30 to interview with them.
     
  5. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    My older brother was accepted at Harvard, Wash U (received full merit scholarship), Vanderbilt, and UCLA, but the U of U denied him. (4.0 GPA, 41 MCAT, amazing extracurriculars, Utah resident) The URM cutoff for an interview is 2.5 GPA/21 MCAT. They have another cutoff for white males of 3.2/27.

    I don't think there is a religious bias against BYU students. I think the bias is in the fact that MCAT and GPA are not considered whatsoever once an interview is granted. BYU applicants generally have much higher MCATs and GPAs than applicants from other Utah schools. Case in point: Ohio State has accepted about 20 BYU students this year. Utah has accepted 14.

    There is a bias against strong academics, but not against Mormons. I think their affirmative action policy is also justified as long as they use only one cutoff, but I don't agree with other aspects of their admissions process.

    There was some pretty crazy stuff going on with their admissions process in past years. I think all applicants would benefit by reading about the process at Utah. You can read the legislative audit here: <a href="http://www.le.state.ut.us/audit/02_01arpt.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.le.state.ut.us/audit/02_01arpt.pdf</a>
     
  6. TSpoon

    TSpoon Member

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    Hello,
    Thanks for the update. As of this fall, according to Richard Ingebretson (my Physics Teacher, and on the U of U ad com board) it was a 3.5, 30 mcat. He said that they did slide the scale in certain circumstances, but that is their "cutoff" for the general app pool.
     
  7. Nickmo

    Nickmo Junior Member

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    Well I am also a student at BYU and I applied to Utah but kept my residency in CA. I got rejected pre-interview from the U of U, with a 3.7 GPA and a 29 MCAT and my roomate from last year after interviewing there told me the same thing of a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT cutoff. He was accepted there with a 3.3 GPA and a 32 MCAT and he applied as a CA resident. Also I have another friend who is filipino-american who got an interview there with a 3.5 GPA and a 26 MCAT and it looks like he will be accepted. I think the U of U is trying to accept more minorities since they have been so skewed towards accepting white males from BYU in the past. Whatever they are trying to do they are accepting less BYU students every year. For the 1999 entering class they accepted 42 (I don't know how many matriculated). For 2000 they accepted 22 (almost a 50% drop from 1 year to the next). It looks like this year they will accept even fewer than that. Who knows what's going on with them!!!
     
  8. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    I think that it is a real shame. If the U of U took the best students they could get, regardless of ethnicity, they could and would be in the top forty med schools in the nation. I know that since they are a state run school they have to take a certain number of minorities for "diversity." But isn't it more important to have a strong student body than to have a diverse student body? I'd personally rather have a competent doctor operate on me than a diverse doctor. I hope that I'm not offending anyone here, I am in no way prejudice, but I think educational organizations can take things too far. It just seems to be a real shame that smart and talented white males with high credentials are not being accepted to our state school. It damages us, our reputation. Anyone with with opinions?
     
  9. TSpoon

    TSpoon Member

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    A "full blanket" AA policy is crap. One that is based on socioeconomic status is much fairer. Personally I worked 3 jobs through all of college (U of U), paid for the whole deal, and dropped out of highschool as a senior. I'm not whiney, just a little bummed that I have to move. Should be a good experience to live elsewhere.

    My stats are similar, U of U undergrad, EMT, 3.5, but only a 9,10,10= no interview. Guess all the extras didn't help?!? My recommendation to anyone else is to skip working 3 jobs, take out loans and get over the cutoff.

    I personally am excited to start med school, and happy just to be accecpted at other fine schools. I'm not religious, but sometimes the good lord has his reasons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Best of luck BYU'ers (especially next year when we kick your butt in Football and Basketball :D )
     
  10. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OphthalmicMan:
    <strong>I think that it is a real shame. If the U of U took the best students they could get, regardless of ethnicity, they could and would be in the top forty med schools in the nation. I know that since they are a state run school they have to take a certain number of minorities for "diversity." But isn't it more important to have a strong student body than to have a diverse student body? I'd personally rather have a competent doctor operate on me than a diverse doctor. I hope that I'm not offending anyone here, I am in no way prejudice, but I think educational organizations can take things too far. It just seems to be a real shame that smart and talented white males with high credentials are not being accepted to our state school. It damages us, our reputation. Anyone with with opinions?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just out of curiousity, are you going to practice in an underserved area?
     
  11. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    I think that the University of Utah accepts plenty of white males. I think affirmative action is necessary and good.

    The problem is that Utah has virtually no regard for strong academics. The selection committee has no idea whether you have a 2.5 GPA or a 4.0 GPA. It's not that they accept too few white males, but that they don't always accept the most qualified ones.

    Now, I realize that GPA and MCAT aren't everything. But I would argue that a strong academic record is a much better sign than a poor one.

    All medical school applicants should read the audit linked to above. It sheds some very interesting light on the admissions process in general.

    USCFreak: You make a great point about underserved areas, and I agree with you. Read the audit, though, and then you'll realize why so many BYU students are upset about the University of Utah's practices. Most of us don't have a problem with affirmative action. It's the other admissions practices that trouble us.

    Example: The director of admissions rejected thirty applicants who were strongly recommended to the selection committee by their interviewers. The selection committee never even got to see their applications.
     
  12. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    UCSFreak: I know that you might think that I am opposed to affirmative action. And in part I am. I think that it is fair to offer minorities and females an opportunity to compete with the majority. I in no way feel any desire to exclude anyone according to their race or gender. I do, however, believe that those who are most qualified should receive admittance. How would you feel as a minority with a 2.5 GPA at Harvard when you are competing against 4.0 students? I think this harms minorities more than it helps them. Affimative Action is a very "just" program. I think it is perfect for undergraduate programs, but I am married and assume that I have just as many stresses with life and jobs as any other person, minority or majority, why don't I get a break into medical school? Graduate school entrance should be based on personal intelligence and attributes, not skin color or gender. When you deny me entrance to a graduate program and accept a minority with lower credentials than me, you become the racist. That's how I feel about Affirmative Action. It is necessary to give people a helping hand but it can create people who rely on the system for their support, carrying them along and adversly hurting the qualified majority. I believe in equality, but it can only come by leveling the playing field, and that by helping train the athletes to perform similarly, not by lowering the bar for any single player. Just because I am white, had a fairly non-sporting childhood and can't jump as high as Michael Jordan, I don't expect the NBA to sign me in order to be just. That's just not how life works.
     
  13. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OphthalmicMan:
    <strong>UCSFreak: I know that you might think that I am opposed to affirmative action. And in part I am. I think that it is fair to offer minorities and females an opportunity to compete with the majority. I in no way feel any desire to exclude anyone according to their race or gender. I do, however, believe that those who are most qualified should receive admittance. How would you feel as a minority with a 2.5 GPA at Harvard when you are competing against 4.0 students? I think this harms minorities more than it helps them. Affimative Action is a very "just" program. I think it is perfect for undergraduate programs, but I am married and assume that I have just as many stresses with life and jobs as any other person, minority or majority, why don't I get a break into medical school? Graduate school entrance should be based on personal intelligence and attributes, not skin color or gender. When you deny me entrance to a graduate program and accept a minority with lower credentials than me, you become the racist. That's how I feel about Affirmative Action. It is necessary to give people a helping hand but it can create people who rely on the system for their support, carrying them along and adversly hurting the qualified majority. I believe in equality, but it can only come by leveling the playing field, and that by helping train the athletes to perform similarly, not by lowering the bar for any single player. Just because I am white, had a fairly non-sporting childhood and can't jump as high as Michael Jordan, I don't expect the NBA to sign me in order to be just. That's just not how life works.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look, I am not here to justify why AA is right or wrong. There have been published studies that hispanics and african americans are more likely to practice in underserved (ie inner-city) areas than caucasians.
    I work in San Francisco, which has a huge Asian population. One of the girls I was working with told me that someone who is of Asian descent would go to a physician or dentist solely because they were of the same race/ethnicity, not because they were any better or worse.
    I think to some extent Hispanics, African Americans, and Asians feel more comfortable being treated by someone from their own culture. Note: This last statement was a huge generalization.
    Who are we to decide that a person with a 26 on the MCAT and a 3.3 gpa will be an inferior physician than someone with a 40 and a 4.0? I read the Univ of Utah statement that was posted. I guess the next question that we should ask is what were the incoming stats for URMs. Were they all 2.5's and 21s as you seem to suggest? Or were they 3.0's and 27's? Remember that there are fewer women and minorities applying, so their acceptance rates will be higher than white males.
    URM physicians serve a purpose. If you only take the highest MCAT and GPA's then you end up with a classload of white, asians, and only handful of african americans and hispanics. How do you define superior "attributes"? Its totally subjective. Having fluency in Spanish is a good attribute. understanding where a URM comes from is a good attriubute. Therein lies a problem also, we naturally assume that the typical URM has an MCAT and GPA score lower than the white counterpart. This bull**** has been propagated so much through my undergrad life that I haven't been able to go on an interview, see a minority student and not think, " I wonder if they are qualified to be here." Its a problem we have to fix. While I don't agree with giving acceptances to people who can't hang (ie 2.5 and 21's), I do agree with giving URMs with promise a chance in medicine, even if AA is used to give them that chance. As a white male, I think that I may have gotten a lot more interviews had I been Hispanic. But I am not, so all I can do is make myself the better applicant and if that means getting a 37 on the MCAT and acing every class, then I would do it.
    Look, I am not criticizing you. I believe that AA serves a purpose, and until we all are the same color and come from the same neighborhood people will disagree about whether its necessary. Buck up and get over it. Sorry dude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

    FYI: Tulane has an agreement with BYU in their admissions process. Do you think its unfair to people who didn't go to BYU when applying to Tulane for med school?
     
  14. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Tulane does not have an agreement with BYU. Schools like Tulane, Ohio State, George Washington, and Saint Louis University accept tons of BYU students because BYU grads developed a great reputation at these schools.

    Like I said earlier, it's pretty crazy that Ohio State has accepted more BYU applicants than Utah has accepted.

    As far as what you said about AA and the need for URM physicians, I agree with you UCSFreak.
     
  15. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    UCSFreak: "I work in San Francisco, which has a huge Asian population. One of the girls I was working with told me that someone who is of Asian descent would go to a physician or dentist solely because they were of the same race/ethnicity, not because they were any better or worse." - Don't you think that's somewhat biased?

    "I think to some extent Hispanics, African Americans, and Asians feel more comfortable being treated by someone from their own culture. Note: This last statement was a huge generalization." - I can understand that, but it's still a biased opinion by the patient - and since we're in America they can do so.

    "Who are we to decide that a person with a 26 on the MCAT and a 3.3 gpa will be an inferior physician than someone with a 40 and a 4.0?" - Never said that. I said qualifications. That's up to the committee to decide. But they must be up to a set standard. An unbiased standard.

    "I read the Univ of Utah statement that was posted. I guess the next question that we should ask is what were the incoming stats for URMs. Were they all 2.5's and 21s as you seem to suggest? Or were they 3.0's and 27's? Remember that there are fewer women and minorities applying, so their acceptance rates will be higher than white males." - I never meant to imply that all minorities have lower scores or GPA's than white males, it's just that a white male must have a 30 on the MCAT and a 3.2 GPA to get an interview while the minority couterpart only needs a 21 and a 2.5 GPA. Do you think that is fair?

    "URM physicians serve a purpose. If you only take the highest MCAT and GPA's then you end up with a classload of white, asians, and only handful of african americans and hispanics. How do you define superior "attributes"? Its totally subjective. Having fluency in Spanish is a good attribute. understanding where a URM comes from is a good attriubute. Therein lies a problem also, we naturally assume that the typical URM has an MCAT and GPA score lower than the white counterpart. This bull**** has been propagated so much through my undergrad life that I haven't been able to go on an interview, see a minority student and not think, " I wonder if they are qualified to be here." Its a problem we have to fix. While I don't agree with giving acceptances to people who can't hang (ie 2.5 and 21's), I do agree with giving URMs with promise a chance in medicine, even if AA is used to give them that chance. As a white male, I think that I may have gotten a lot more interviews had I been Hispanic. But I am not, so all I can do is make myself the better applicant and if that means getting a 37 on the MCAT and acing every class, then I would do it." - I agree with you, I just think that by favoring minorities so heavily, the UofU is being unfair to the rest of us.

    "Look, I am not criticizing you. I believe that AA serves a purpose, and until we all are the same color and come from the same neighborhood people will disagree about whether its necessary. Buck up and get over it. Sorry dude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> " - I know that with any government institution there are trade-offs, I just think that things need to be changed, acceptance needs to be based on a set standard of "qualifications."

    "FYI: Tulane has an agreement with BYU in their admissions process. Do you think its unfair to people who didn't go to BYU when applying to Tulane for med school?" - BYU is a private university and therefore can do whatever they want, they don't have to abide by AA stipulations, but they do. I feel that if our in state school was more willing to accept BYU graduates, we wouldn't have an agreement with Tulane. And of course, you have to ask yourself, why would Tulane want to do such a thing, because they know what kind of students BYU churns out! The U of U is a public school that my tax dollars support, I should have an equal opportunity to be accepted.
     
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  17. a*gal

    a*gal Junior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OphthalmicMan:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>UCSFreak: I know that you might think that I am opposed to affirmative action. And in part I am. I think that it is fair to offer minorities and females an opportunity to compete with the majority. I in no way feel any desire to exclude anyone according to their race or gender. I do, however, believe that those who are most qualified should receive admittance. How would you feel as a minority with a 2.5 GPA at Harvard when you are competing against 4.0 students? </strong>

    Okay! I am officially sick of hearing this bullcrap. FYI, anyone that is at Harvard DESERVES to be at Harvard. Medical school admissions is NOT only about numbers, not to mention the fact that high grades aren't exclusively limited to non-minority applicants and vice versa.
    I challenge you to find a student at Harvard who is not qualified to be there. I challenge you to find that minority physicians somehow don't "measure up" because they are unqualified when admitted to medical schools.

    <strong>I think this harms minorities more than it helps them. Affimative Action is a very "just" program. I think it is perfect for undergraduate programs, but I am married and assume that I have just as many stresses with life and jobs as any other person, minority or majority, why don't I get a break into medical school? Graduate school entrance should be based on personal intelligence and attributes, not skin color or gender. </strong>

    There you go again! FYI, that people are of a given skin color does not make them lacking in personal intelligence. As for the assertion that AA is not a very "just" program, the last time I checked, neither is the American society. Just last week, a study was published to show that blacks and minorities get a lower level of healthcare than whites. (Check nytimes.com for details). Is that "just" OR "fair" that they be denied this basic right based on their skin color? As fellow taxpayers, do they NOT deserve the same level of care?

    <strong>When you deny me entrance to a graduate program and accept a minority with lower credentials than me, you become the racist. That's how I feel about Affirmative Action. It is necessary to give people a helping hand but it can create people who rely on the system for their support, carrying them along and adversly hurting the qualified majority. I believe in equality, but it can only come by leveling the playing field, and that by helping train the athletes to perform similarly, not by lowering the bar for any single player. </strong>

    If your solution is to "level the playing field", then what is your argument here? The medical school admissions process is all around an extremely competitive process. For whatever stats you have, there are many many others with the same or better who are qualified for med school spots. The problem has never been, as you try to cast it, choosing between "qualified" and "unqualified" candidates. Rather, in a excess pool of qualified candidates capable of handling the pressures of med school, how do you choose a class?

    This is where your "leveling the playing field" argument comes into play so you can apply it from this point.

    <strong>Just because I am white, had a fairly non-sporting childhood and can't jump as high as Michael Jordan, I don't expect the NBA to sign me in order to be just. That's just not how life works.</strong>

    Well, personally, I would love the NBA to sign you on while the med school adcoms admit all the minority players. That way, maybe we can get more doctors working in underserved areas and close the widening gap in basic healthcare. Surely YOU wouldn't mind...afterall, playing basketball and getting access to care to keep you alive and maybe healthy are on the same level, BASIC human rights!
     
  18. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    a*gal: Sorry, but you don't make a whit of sense. I'm in no way saying that I'm prejudice, but just take a look at the system. I understand that there must be programs for those in need, but why should sex or skin color have anything to do with it? What if I was a poor white child living in the projects of New York, going to school in the ghettos? I'd still have no greater opportunity than a rich white child from Rochester. Is that fair? Who's to say that white males don't want to practice in underserved areas? I've been on many medical missions, Bolivia, Peru, and soon China. Not to mention the slums of DC and New York. So why am I racist? All that I'm saying is that admittance requirements should be based on a standard (SAME FOR EVERYONE) scale and financial aid be given to those from poor economic backgrounds and those in true need. Let's throw the socio-ethnic crap out the window, it's the root of all evil. The way it stands now, I can only apply for one academic scholarship (one scholarship available for white males), while my friend who is 1/4 italian gets a free ride (full tuition) just because his grandmother is italian. Fair you say? Don't judge anyone by their ancestry, gender or skin color. That's the only way to have equality. After we level the playing field, we will be one step closer to living in a more harmonious society.
     
  19. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OphthalmicMan:
    <strong>What if I was a poor white child living in the projects of New York, going to school in the ghettos? I'd still have no greater opportunity than a rich white child from Rochester. Is that fair? Who's to say that white males don't want to practice in underserved areas? I've been on many medical missions, Bolivia, Peru, and soon China. Not to mention the slums of DC and New York. So why am I racist? All that I'm saying is that admittance requirements should be based on a standard (SAME FOR EVERYONE) scale and financial aid be given to those from poor economic backgrounds and those in true need.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Statistics show that white males are less likely to practice in underserved areas than URMs. Should someone who has grown up impoverished, who couldn't afford the private high schools or "Ivy league" education that a lot of his counterparts had be judged by the same criteria, when clearly his or her economic situation had an impact on his quality of education and therefore gpa and MCAT scores? Socio-economics should be taken into consideration in this case, and a lot of whites, hispanics, and african-americans would qualify as being socio-economically disadvantaged, which I believe is a more just form of AA. I hope to a non-existent God that you never sit on an Admissions Committee.
    Oh yeah, I am Italian American and I got one of those scholarships for my undergrad. Should I tell you what my ancestry did in this country in the early 1900's to make it better for Italian immigrants? It probably wouldn't matter if I did, you still wouldn't think that it is worth anything.
     
  20. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    UCSFreak: I don't see you doing anything... just because your ancestors may have founded the country, it doesn't mean that you should get a scholarship, you didn't do anything. You're riding on a free ticket. You like it though... I don't blame you. I'd like it too. But that doesn't make it fair. I'm for total equality. If there are people who are financially disadvantaged, let's help them out. But just because you're Italian, Black, Hispanic, or whatever doesn't somehow automatically make you "needy" or worthy of assitance. We have to look at more factors, and throw out the race/gender factors. Look at childhoods, look at situations, look at human qualities, but don't just judge on race and gender. That's what the U of U has been doing and it's unfair for the hardworking and equally deserving, yet I must admit, cookie-cutter BYU student. There are plenty of needy white guys and we're just having a hard time finding our support... that's all. I don't mean to be beligerant, but if you favor/disfavor ANYONE by an attribute that they cannot change and that you cannot change, you make the system unfair. That's just how it is.
     
  21. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    Dude, you never answered the frickin question: Are you, a white racist, willing to go to the places where the pay is most meager and the patients most sick (ie. underserved areas like the inner city) and work? No, you're not. That's why black and hispanic folks get into med school in your spot- because they would move there. And please, don't give us that crap about "i went here and there..."- you went cause you HAD TO, not because you wanted to (by that I mean mission trips and your 2 years of service- we're not all ignorant about LDS). --Trek
     
  22. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    Thanks Trek. I was tired of posting the same question over and over again for him to dodge it.
     
  23. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    No sh!t UCS- i bet he doesn't post on this thread anymore. But we know you're reading. And you know the answer to the question is "never in a million years". So quit bitchin. --Trek
     
  24. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OphthalmicMan:
    <strong>UCSFreak: I don't see you doing anything... just because your ancestors may have founded the country, it doesn't mean that you should get a scholarship, you didn't do anything. You're riding on a free ticket. You like it though... I don't blame you. I'd like it too. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't blame me if there aren't more Mormons or BYUers that donate money so that you can have a free ride too. Don't you get some massive tuition break because of all the tithing? I hate to get into a religious debate, but how many Mormons receive assistance from the Church, just because they are LDS? Nepotism at its best in the LDS job world also. But hey, thats a different kind of free ticket because you can change who you are to fit the mold that's required to get the $$ and the help. SO stop giving me **** and everyone else because you aren't a URM or Italian. And yeah, i didn;t help found the country but I have a great non-religious community service record. So F-off. Stop complaining and deal with it. Peace.
     
  25. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    R.I.P whiny ass thread about nothing in particular. Kudos UCS- nice to see rational human beings around :) --Trek
     
  26. Zeffer

    Zeffer "My dog ate em. I swear thats the truth!"
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

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    Just to stop any misconceptions about the LDS missions;
    1) No one has to serve one. Most everyone that goes does so because they want to. I know because I decided not to (I wanted to get in to Medical School before I was 26).

    2) Medical missions are only for those with the degrees (ie MD, DO, RN, etc). So any medical mission he has done is in addition to and separate from his church mission.

    OpthalmicMan, quit crying about the U admission policy. The legislature is dealing with any possible unfairness in the admissions process. If you want to get in then distinguish yourself above the other applicants. You should also be grateful that they don't look soley at statistics because there is always someone out there with better numbers than you. I would also consider other Med Schools as you might find that you like another even more (if you consider more important issues than tuition). Besides the legislature breathing down the back of the MD school, they also are have many financial difficulties. So relax and work on preparing yourself for Med school.
     
  27. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    I completely disagree with OpthalmicMan's opinion on affirmative action. Please don't think that he has the attitude of a typical BYU student.

    The problems at the U of U have nothing to do with affirmative action. The real problem is the complete disregard for academics and corrupt practices. If you want to know what I'm talking about, read the audit.

    UCSFreak: I agree with you. Affirmative action is necessary and good. But you have some serious misconceptions about Mormons, and I resent your comments. Also, you should know better than to attack someone citing his or her religious beliefs.
     
  28. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    DocJ- did we meet at a baylor interview one time? You, me and another girl walked to a hotel to get a cab to the airport. Sounds really like this guy. Let me know. --Trek
     
  29. gizzdogg

    gizzdogg keeper of the three lions

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    Opthalmic Man,
    I really appreciated your post! I have some tolerant brothers going to BYU, so i know that not all BYU students are intolerant. But as long as we're stereotyping here, thanks for taking the time to remind me of how intolerant and narrow-minded a glaring minority of BYU students really are. Seriously now, I attended BYU for one semester and the "great atmosphere" was just too much for me. So i left for another school. So thanks for your reminder of what a good decision i made. I grew up in the deep south, and oddly enough, I have never encountered the kind of racism that i came across on the BYU campus. I don't think my experiences were extreme or atypical either. Has this intolerance rubbed off on you? From the sound of it, I met a couple of hundred of you during my stay in provo. My advice to you: be grateful for what opportunities you will have and get past your homogenously-minded, sheltered background to learn that our backgrounds and yes, even our skin colors can affect the opportunities that will come our way and the choices we will make (like serving in an underserved community). Sorry if i pissed off some of you cool BYU students. I know there are a lot of you out there. No disrespect to our religion that preaches tolerance. Just being frank and honest towards a post that revisits an issue that has already been agitated a million times over.
     
  30. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    Just be thankful you've not been in the way of a swarm of overzealous tracters (or perhaps you have been). Perhaps many at that lovely campus should start listening to Hinckley and what he's been talking about lately? --Trek
     
  31. OphthalmicMan

    OphthalmicMan Junior Member

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    I think that I said something wrong. I am not racist, I never once brought up religion, and I am not saying that minorities should not be admitted to medical schools. All I am saying is that it shouldn't have as much sway as it does. By Medical Missions I meant assisting a doctor as free service in underserved areas receiving no pay and travelling at my own expense. So if you still think that I am racist, I am sorry. I never meant to offend anyone. I am just a white guy who would like to get into medical school and if I live long enough, see the end to racism and ethnic bias. UCSFreak, I understand where you are coming from, but I do think that you need to know more about what you are talking about before you make blanket statements, especially about a religious denomination. I would, as you would, like to see a more diverse spectra applying to medical school. I just don't think that having differing entrance standards is the most fair policy. It is understandable however. My biggest qualm isn't over the whole AA subject, maybe we can just stop all of that discussion. We all seem to have our own opinions and that's fine. I still have to agree with DocJ that the real problem lies in the fact that after you have met the qualifications for an interview at the U, only the "feelings" of the interviewer are taken into consideration. Just as there must be more than scores, there must also be more than the interview. I hope that the current policies of the U are changed before I apply for admission, but if not, maybe I'll go someplace else and learn more about underserved areas. I have tried my hardest not to stereotype, just give some hypothetical examples to prove a point. Please don't take them as the views of BYU or the LDS Church. If they seem racist it is my fault. And for that I apologize.
     
  32. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Trek, I interviewed at Baylor, but I don't think that was me... What day did you interview? I shared a cab with a guy named Rick.

    Gizzdogg, Do you really there is a lot of racism at BYU? I would have to disagree with you. There is definitely a very small minority of narrow-minded BYU students, but they aren't racist.

    There is a large majority of white students at BYU, but they overwhelmingly elected an African-American student body president this year.
     
  33. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DocJ:
    <strong>UCSFreak: I agree with you. Affirmative action is necessary and good. But you have some serious misconceptions about Mormons, and I resent your comments. Also, you should know better than to attack someone citing his or her religious beliefs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look, I am not attacking the LDS church. I was merely trying to make a point about how everyone can receive a "hand out" or "assistance" and you don't just have to be a URM, or Italian as OphthalmicMan was claiming. I grew up in a predominantly LDS community and I have seen first hand what goes on. Granted, my opinion is based only on observations made within my community and that of some of my LDS relatives in St George. But, you have got to be kidding me if you think that nepotism is not prevalent in the LDS community (for example, look at the Las Vegas or Henderson Fire Departments). Its all about who you know, and the Church has plenty of ways for you to make the connections. You can believe what ever you want, I don't really give a **** because they are just that- beliefs. I was merely trying to make a point that everyone gets some assistance at some point in their life, whether its from their church, family, a scholarship foundation, or a god damn medical school admissions committee. So resent my statement all you want, you are kidding yourself if you think that your Church doesn't go out of their way to help its own members. :p
     
  34. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    UCSFreak- Mormons give 10% of their income and many even give 2 or more years of their lives to their Church. What do they get in return? A job at the Las Vegas fire department? Now that's a sweet deal.

    The Mormon Church doesn't even have a paid clergy, and to suggest that they give church members handouts is absurd.

    Being a Mormon is much more of a disadvantage than an advantage when applying to medical school. It was almost always the biggest issue that my interviewers wanted to discuss, and often with a negative tone. Check out these questions I was asked:

    "How do people react when you try to teach them your religion?" (First question of the interview, and trust me, this is not part of my application.)

    "We get an EXTRAORDINARILY large number of applications from BYU. Why do you think we get so many applications from a religion affiliated school?" (I answered: largest private university in the country and students from all over the country)

    "You should just go to BYU for medical school." (&lt;--a very stupid comment, since BYU doesn't even have a medical school)

    "Are you REALLY a Mormon?????"

    Is that like something you grew up with????

    "Well, we don't have a tabernacle in our city, so you'll have to learn to live with that."

    Behind my back to other applicants by faculty member: "I knew that guy was a Mormon."

    My religion was one of the first topics of discussion in almost all of my interviews, and I didn't appreciate it. I'm just a regular guy with a great application, and I often didn't even get a chance to discuss it because people were so fixated on my religion.

    Also, many people discount the humanitarian service work I did since it was through my church. They think that a two year mission is mandatory, and that's just not true.
     
  35. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Trek- Don't take this personally. I know you're a good guy, but your line about missions was classic.

    "You went cause you HAD TO, not because you wanted to (by that I mean mission trips and your 2 years of service- we're not all ignorant about LDS)." --Trek

    Because there is so much folklore, everybody thinks they're "not ignorant" about Mormons. That's what makes it so hard to interview as a Mormon. Since so many people think they understand how Mormons live and how the LDS Church functions, misconceptions like yours about the "mandatory" mission are nearly impossible to dispel.

    A couple days ago on ESPN a commentator said: "Mormons like to live in Utah because they feel more comfortable there." Give me a break! If that commentator said something like that about another race or religion, he would have been fired immediately.

    I can't wait for the day when Mormon-bashing is no longer acceptable in American society.
     
  36. DarksideAllstar

    DarksideAllstar you can pay me in bud

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DocJ:
    <strong>Also, many people discount the humanitarian service work I did since it was through my church. They think that a two year mission is mandatory, and that's just not true.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its a shame that people think that you did your volunteer work solely for church purposes. I don't discredit what you did, but I think that people have the impression that the objective of most churches is to prosetylize, which in most cases, goes hand in hand with volunteer work or services that they provide. I also don't condone any of the behaviour of your interviewers or staff. I think that you have a right to be judged on who you are and not stereotyped on what you believe.
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> UCSFreak- Mormons give 10% of their income and many even give 2 or more years of their lives to their Church. What do they get inreturn? A job at the Las Vegas fire department? Now that's a sweet deal.The Mormon Church doesn't even have a paid clergy, and to suggest that they give church members handouts is absurd. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was an LDS family living across the street from me and the father lost his job. There were droves of LDS offering to help pay his mortgage, food, etc. AND they got him another job. I have also heard of the church helping poorer families get by. How absurd is what I have observed in my own neighborhood.
    I will not dignify any more of your "everyone" is out to get the LDS B.S. that is being peddled here. I feel sorry for you because your religion is targeted by many others as corrupt and strange. I know quite a bit about the church as my girlfriend tried to get my to convert. I have read the Book of Mormon and most of the Doctrine and Covenants, and I went to church regularly for almost a year. Don't give me that crap that I have no idea what I am talking about, because I know quite a bit about you religion.
    FYI I never attacked OphthalmicMan for being LDS, but rather used it as an example in one my posts. Stop being overly sensitive to everything which mentions Mormonism in a critical light, even when its not under direct attack. I hope that there is no hard feelings in this thread, everyone will always have different opinions on AA and its not something that we can solve on SDN. <img border="0" alt="[Pissy]" title="" src="graemlins/pissy.gif" />
     
  37. Jonny-5

    Jonny-5 Member

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    Hey DocJ

    I remember you from the Baylor interview. Didn't you go to Siberia or something for your mission?

    Anyway, since this thread has many, many subjects, I just wanted to know how you were doing and where you might be going next year.

    As for myself, probably headed to Pitt next year. Take care!

    Jonny
     
  38. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    UCSFreak- Thanks for the post. I didn't mean to suggest that I think "everyone" is out to get Mormons. I just think that there are way too many misconceptions and way too much Mormon bashing.

    I had a different understanding of the word "handouts" than you. It is true that the Mormon Church has a great welfare system, but it is not just for church members. In fact, LDS Charities is one of the largest charitable organizations in the world. They buy equipment including MRI machines for hospitals in 3rd world countries and make huge humanitarian shipments of clothing and food. The volunteer organization strictly avoids any form of proselytizing. I spent most of my mission working for LDS Charities. The Church of Jesus Christ also recently helped to pay for the construction of a Hare Krishna temple in Utah as well as a Tongan Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake.

    I think it's great when Mormons rally to help each other when someone is in trouble. It is true that the Church provides a strong support network. But Mormons believe in helping all people equally regardless of faith or beliefs. I have no problem with criticism of the LDS Church as long as it is informed. The problem is that people are usually misinformed or make a generalization based on brief contact with Mormons or "something they heard." Anyway, I appreciate the positive things you said, UCSFreak.
     
  39. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Hi Jonny! I remember you. Yeah, I went to Siberia. I almost froze to death. :)

    I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm still waiting to hear from Harvard, although I'll bet anything I didn't get accepted there. My interviewer there was the one asking if I was "really a Mormon" and it being "something I grew up with." It was really weird. Aren't you an MD/PhD applicant? Im doing MD/PhD, I just don't know where yet.

    Anyway, thanks for the message and good luck with everything.
     
  40. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO

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    This is a little off the topic, but what does happen to a male or female who chooses not to serve a mission other than receiving punishment in the hereafter?
     
  41. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Serving a mission is not mandatory. It is definitely encouraged, but it is also considered to be a personal decision.

    Mormons don't believe that a person will be punished for not serving a mission.

    Many Mormons never serve missions. In fact, there have been several Church presidents that were never missionaries.
     
  42. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DocJ:
    <strong>

    Mormons don't believe that a person will be punished for not serving a mission.

    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But those who choose not to serve will receive less blessings in this life and the next than a person who has done missionary work, right?
     
  43. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member

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    DocJ- i was told by an ex-LDS member who is now a professor in the south (teaches predominantly SW american history with heavy emphasis on LDS) that those that haven't done missions historically were denied from the upper priesthood- i forget the exact name but it starts with M (sorry). I'm hazy on the exact details but i'm pretty sure you'd know what i'm talking about. I interpreted that as a form of a 'punishment' given the importance and deference given to elderly priests in the LDS. Perhaps my inference was wrong, or maybe his statement. Please let me know. --Trek
     
  44. gizzdogg

    gizzdogg keeper of the three lions

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    Trek,
    Sorry dude, but I don't think your source is solid. A person who chooses not to serve a mission can potentially enjoy all of the same perks/responsibilities as someone who does serve one.

    That said, I think your point is valid in the sense that a great deal of pressure is placed on young men to serve a mission. This pressure comes in the forms of fears of ostracism, fears of letting down family and girlfriends. Let me be plainer. Mormon women are encouraged to marry a mormon man who has served a mission. Mormon men are encouraged to marry an obedient mormon woman. How is that for motivation?!

    While it technically is a personal decision, how many decisions in life aren't personal? not many. The pressure is intense, and many people influence young men for better or for worse. Sometimes it's anything but personal. So there are many reasons why people serve these missions. Some bad, some good and some better than good. And you're right about some cases. Unfortunately, many guys do spend two years doing something they never wanted to do. But by no means is this a rule of thumb to go by. I'd say any guy who spent two years away from family and friends should be given the benefit of the doubt.
     
  45. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    There is absolutely no punishment for not serving a mission. I have friends who didn't serve missions, and they all received the Melchezidek priesthood when I did.

    That's pretty interesting to me that you have a professor that teaches about Mormons. He might have a couple of facts mixed up. Studying Mormon history can be difficult since most sources are either 100% pro-Mormon or 100% anti-Mormon. There are very few objective sources.

    Like I said, there have been Church presidents within the last decade who never served a mission, and the priesthood is granted to everyone independent of any missionary service.
     
  46. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    "But those who choose not to serve will receive less blessings in this life and the next than a person who has done missionary work, right?"--Studyshy

    Studyshy- That isn't taught in the LDS Church. The president of the Mormon Church is revered and considered a prophet, and there have been Church presidents who never served a mission.

    Church members are definitely encouraged to serve a mission, but nothing is taught regarding blessings in return for serving a mission or converting people. It's just something that many Mormons do because they want to. Because of missions, almost all the students at BYU are fluent in another language. Missions are considered to be great educational experience and an opportunity to do service. In most (but not all) missions proselytizing takes place as well. But missionaries schedule their own time and choose thier own activities.

    When I was in Russia, I spent almost all of my time doing humanitarian service in orphanages and hospitals and teaching English at a university. We also did a puppet show to teach children about the dangers of drugs, smoking, and alcohol abuse and the importance of a healthy diet. When we did service activities, we did not identify ourselves as Mormons or advertise for the Church.

    Sorry for such a lengthy answer. :)
     
  47. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DocJ:
    <strong>"But those who choose not to serve will receive less blessings in this life and the next than a person who has done missionary work, right?"--Studyshy </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How about for a person who has grown up in the church and knowingly chooses not to serve?
     
  48. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Gizzdogg- What you said about fear of ostracism is true in a few cases, but I know many, many Mormons who didn't serve missions and everyone is fine with it. These people often hold important leadership positions in the Church. Most people don't even have a clue who served a mission and who didn't, and no one even cares.

    In my family, the pressure to serve a mission was not intense at all. I was actually intensely pressured not to go on a mission by some members of my family. In all but one of my friends' families the pressure was also not intense. I think it all depends on the family. There are some parents who insist on it.

    I had a girlfriend when I decided to go on my mission. It was very difficult to leave her. But everything turned out fine and we were married 1 year after I got home. It is very common for missionaries (both men and women) to lose their girlfriend/boyfriend while they are gone. But most people just accept that risk. :) I knew tons of missionaries that got a "Dear John" or a "Dear Jane" letter while they were serving. Most missionaries think getting dumped is inevitable when you're gone for two years. I was just lucky, I guess. :)
     
  49. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Studyshy-- I think it all depends on the family. The last president of the Mormon Church grew up a Mormon and decided not to go on a mission for whatever reason. There are some parents that really pressure their kids to serve. But I go to church every Sunday and honestly couldn't tell you which people served and which didn't. People at church don't care either way. I could have just as easily not gone to Russia and no one would know the difference. The only difference would be that I would have applied to medical school 2 years earlier, and I would have lost out on learning Russian and some amazing experiences.
     
  50. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO

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    How about if a Mormon chooses not to get married (a prerequiste for the Celestial Kingdom), which your leaders have commanded. Wouldn't that be the same thing?
     
  51. DocJ

    DocJ Member

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    Great question, Studyshy. :) If people don't get married in this life, Mormons believe that they will find a companion in the "spirit world" (heaven). You're right that being married is a prerequisite to entering the Celestial Kingdom in Mormon doctrine, but if it doesn't happen in this life, there is a backup plan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  52. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO

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    So what was your major at BYU? Just curious. :)
     

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