CA-3's...jobs?...fellowships?

[pushthesux]

Is anyone worried about getting a job like I am? I'm trying to move away from my current location, but I have really found nothing. I'm worried I should have done a fellowship just to secure something.

Is it still too early to start worrying? Will jobs open up for July 2010 once groups can anticipate need?

Thanks for any help.

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[panetrain]

The market has really contracted over the past two years. I don't see this peaking anytime soon.thumbdown I was unable to snag a good paying position in my top 4 cities. I truly think there are jobs in nearly every market in the country at this point in time, however, the competitive and average markets are paying low two hundreds with long or no partnership track. I was able to snag a gig in the midwest that pays well. However, I had to give up location, living near family etc.. for the higher paying gig. . The job market, in my opinion, will continue to decline and reach an ultra low point. This dying market is already reaching med students and deterring them from considering this field, which may result is a shortage in 10 years or so. This shortage could result is a rebound market.

Is anyone worried about getting a job like I am? I'm trying to move away from my current location, but I have really found nothing. I'm worried I should have done a fellowship just to secure something.

Is it still too early to start worrying? Will jobs open up for July 2010 once groups can anticipate need?

Thanks for any help.

 

[foxtrot]

The market has really contracted over the past two years. I don't see this peaking anytime soon.thumbdown I was unable to snag a good paying position in my top 4 cities. I truly think there are jobs in nearly every market in the country at this point in time, however, the competitive and average markets are paying low two hundreds with long or no partnership track. I was able to snag a gig in the midwest that pays well. However, I had to give up location, living near family etc.. for the higher paying gig. . The job market, in my opinion, will continue to decline and reach an ultra low point. This dying market is already reaching med students and deterring them from considering this field, which may result is a shortage in 10 years or so. This shortage could result is a rebound market.

I agree with this 100%. What is really frustrating is that many of the academic centers are no longer hiring because of department cutbacks.

 

[Coastie]

Really?

Panetrain, I've posted this in other forums: I know of people who got solid jobs in NYC (2 year partnership), Miami, and elsewhere...just a few months ago.

I hear the market is "not what it used to be", yet I see non-fellowshiped colleagues landing sweet gigs..and the current CA-3's interviewing for 300-500k starting in the midwest/west in the middle of nowhere AND major major metro areas.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I find it extremely hard to believe that there are starting jobs in "desirable" places to live for 500K.

 

[panetrain]

Senior residents love to hype up their jobs, and often highly exaggerate their starting salaries. Don't buy into it. It is very very rare to start at 500K anywhere unless you are working 70-80 hours/week.

Really?

Panetrain, I've posted this in other forums: I know of people who got solid jobs in NYC (2 year partnership), Miami, and elsewhere...just a few months ago.

I hear the market is "not what it used to be", yet I see non-fellowshiped colleagues landing sweet gigs..and the current CA-3's interviewing for 300-500k starting in the midwest/west in the middle of nowhere AND major major metro areas.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I would agree with the above. I don't agree with anyones estimate of their salary until I have seen their tax return. There are just too many variables. if someone is giving you a figure of 500K to start they are probably not giving you the whole picture. There was a guy a few years ahead of me in residency who landed the dream job out west witha high paying salary. When he got there he found out that his "salary" was based on maximal productivity (lots of hours and fighting others for cases). he lasted about a month. Caveat emptor.

 

[Coastie]

I would agree with the above. I don't agree with anyones estimate of their salary until I have seen their tax return. There are just too many variables. if someone is giving you a figure of 500K to start they are probably not giving you the whole picture. There was a guy a few years ahead of me in residency who landed the dream job out west witha high paying salary. When he got there he found out that his "salary" was based on maximal productivity (lots of hours and fighting others for cases). he lasted about a month. Caveat emptor.

He was interviewing in middle of nowhere places to major metro areas. Major metro areas are starting 300-350k, middle of nowhere was 500k starting with q4 call and (I think) 5 weeks vacation.

 

[Pilot Doc]

He was interviewing in middle of nowhere places to major metro areas. Major metro areas are starting 300-350k, middle of nowhere was 500k starting with q4 call and (I think) 5 weeks vacation.

For comparison, the hiring has pretty much ground to a halt in my 3million metro area market. One group does offer 7-3 M-F for $130.

 

[Coastie]

For comparison, the hiring has pretty much ground to a halt in my 3million metro area market. One group does offer 7-3 M-F for $130.

What a terrible market. Even NYC isn't that bad.

 

[ProRealDoc]

I agree with this 100%. What is really frustrating is that many of the academic centers are no longer hiring because of department cutbacks.

Strange because the ASA career website has many ads from academic places looking to hire. Be flexible and you'll find a job.

 

[pgg]

For comparison, the hiring has pretty much ground to a halt in my 3million metro area market. One group does offer 7-3 M-F for $130.

That's about what they're offering CRNAs around where I am (central valley CA). I'm in the military so I haven't been looking for a permanent position, but I know groups are looking for new people. The one I moonlight with is always calling to see if I'm available for more hours.

 

[narcusprince]

PGG,
Do you know anything about the Jacksonville Florida area for moonlighting?, Did any of the attendings at Portsmouth moonlight in that area?

 

[hoyden]

Really?

Panetrain, I've posted this in other forums: I know of people who got solid jobs in NYC (2 year partnership), Miami, and elsewhere...just a few months ago.

I hear the market is "not what it used to be", yet I see non-fellowshiped colleagues landing sweet gigs..and the current CA-3's interviewing for 300-500k starting in the midwest/west in the middle of nowhere AND major major metro areas.

Very hard to believe. Especially about Miami and NYC.

Someone is not giving you the whole picture( W-2 vs 1099, hours/vacation/call balance)

 

[coprolalia]

If you heed only one piece of advice from me in all the time I post on this forum, this is it.

There are only two fellowships to do:

Pediatric anesthesiology

................-or-

Cardiothoracic anesthesiology (with TEE certification)

Do not waste your time doing any other fellowship. Every other fellowship is a B.S. waste of time. Period. It will not help you find a job that will afford you the remuneration you deserve.

Better yet, if you are a CA-3 start looking for a job right now. Get out there and make hay while the sun shines. The future is definitely uncertain. Secure your job now.

-copro

 

[Southpaw]

If you heed only one piece of advice from me in all the time I post on this forum, this is it.

There are only two fellowships to do:

Pediatric anesthesiology

................-or-

Cardiothoracic anesthesiology (with TEE certification)

Do not waste your time doing any other fellowship. Every other fellowship is a B.S. waste of time. Period. It will not help you find a job that will afford you the remuneration you deserve.

Better yet, if you are a CA-3 start looking for a job right now. Get out there and make hay while the sun shines. The future is definitely uncertain. Secure your job now.

-copro

What's your beef with critical care? Just curious. It gives you a completely different skillset that's useable outside the OR. The aging population and our ability to keep people alive forever will continue to fill the ICUs. There's a definitely been decline in the number of intensivists due to decreased pay relative to OR anesthesia, but if I know anything it's that increased demand for a job means you're a valued commodity if you can fill that slot. You disagree?

 

[dhb]

What's your beef with critical care? Just curious.

Overrated imho.
If you want to be the hot shot at a big academic ICU then yes or else you can do without it.

 

[BLADEMDA]

When things get tight as they are now the GRoups want the best and the brightest along with TEAM PLAYERS (get along well, humble, etc.).

Those of you who have a fellowship such as Cardiac (yes TEE mandatory) and/or ICU are viewed as more skilled/possibly more valuable in filling a need.

Certainly, Peds is a unique skill set that certain groups which do high risk peds will value. Most Groups do basic peds so a fellowship isn't needed.

Blade

 

[i want out]

If you heed only one piece of advice from me in all the time I post on this forum, this is it.

There are only two fellowships to do:

Pediatric anesthesiology

................-or-

Cardiothoracic anesthesiology (with TEE certification)

Do not waste your time doing any other fellowship. Every other fellowship is a B.S. waste of time. Period. It will not help you find a job that will afford you the remuneration you deserve.

Better yet, if you are a CA-3 start looking for a job right now. Get out there and make hay while the sun shines. The future is definitely uncertain. Secure your job now.

-copro

If CV is so marketable, then why have I been hearing graduates from big name program in Houston are going places where they are only doing CT cases 1-2 days a week?

i want out(of IRR)

 

[coprolalia]

What's your beef with critical care? Just curious. It gives you a completely different skillset that's useable outside the OR. The aging population and our ability to keep people alive forever will continue to fill the ICUs. There's a definitely been decline in the number of intensivists due to decreased pay relative to OR anesthesia, but if I know anything it's that increased demand for a job means you're a valued commodity if you can fill that slot. You disagree?

It may "round out" your CV and give you more skills, but it won't get you better pay. And, while the "shakedown" is going on at the national level, namely at physician reimbursements, why waste a year when you could be out there getting your hands into what will soon become a tightening, shrinking box of money?

If CV is so marketable, then why have I been hearing graduates from big name program in Houston are going places where they are only doing CT cases 1-2 days a week?

i want out(of IRR)

TEE certification is worth its weight in gold. You can still do general anesthesia between those CV cases, and if you have TEE certification you're in.

The majority of the lucrative jobs that'll still be out there over the next couple of years will be peds and CT anesthesia. That's my prognostication, for those of you who haven't gotten your spot yet.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

Think of a fellowship like taking roughly a $200,000 pay cut for a year. Think about, after you finish that fellowship, how long it's going to have to take you to earn that $200,000 back. If the fellowship is not going to provide you the opportunity to do that within, say, five years, then it's not worth it.

You can always do a fellowship later after the job market gets the beat-down. They'll love to have you then, trust me.

-copro

 

[badgas]

Think of a fellowship like taking roughly a $200,000 pay cut for a year. Think about, after you finish that fellowship, how long it's going to have to take you to earn that $200,000 back. If the fellowship is not going to provide you the opportunity to do that within, say, five years, then it's not worth it.

You can always do a fellowship later after the job market gets the beat-down. They'll love to have you then, trust me.

-copro

Pain management will allow you a completely different scope of practice. You'll probably have a bit more control over your schedule and patients. You're right though, you'll probably be paying some significant $$ for that opportunity. If you're sick of just being an OR slave and you enjoy pain, it may be worth it.

 

[OB1🤙]

This is the reason I'm trying to get going on locking down a cards fellowship now, 2 months into CA-2 year. I want there to be absolutely no doubt that I bring expertise to the table that a CRNA cannot bring.

That and I've discovered I love cardiac anesthesia.

 

[ProRealDoc]

If CV is so marketable, then why have I been hearing graduates from big name program in Houston are going places where they are only doing CT cases 1-2 days a week?

i want out(of IRR)

heard the same thing as well. Most of the CT fellows who graduated were going to jobs doing about 20-40% cardiac.

 

[Bertelman]

If CV is so marketable, then why have I been hearing graduates from big name program in Houston are going places where they are only doing CT cases 1-2 days a week?

i want out(of IRR)

That sounds perfect to me.

p.s. it sounds like they didn't have much trouble securing those positions

 

[Jeff05]

You should have this without a fellowship, at least I do.

not as far as 1/3 of the states are concerned.

 

[Bertelman]

Don't you need to do a certain number of CV cases to keep your TEE cert over time?

One to two days a week nets you at least 100 a year. I'm at a place with a large volume of hearts, and there's only a handful that get that many.

 

[pgg]

PGG,
Do you know anything about the Jacksonville Florida area for moonlighting?, Did any of the attendings at Portsmouth moonlight in that area?

Jacksonville's supposed to be good for military moonlighting. One of the guys from the class a year ahead of me went there. What I hear is that he has to work outside the MTF just to keep himself busy more than 40 hours/week, and it's not unreasonable for someone there to just about double their military salary. (Not that it takes much moonlighting to double your military pay ... a handful of weekdays plus covering weekend call once per month is getting me close out here in cowtown, California.)

But times are changing and I don't know what the part-time Jax market looks like now.

 

[pgg]

heard the same thing as well. Most of the CT fellows who graduated were going to jobs doing about 20-40% cardiac.

Maybe that's what they want?

I'm looking at a CT fellowship once the military lets go of me, but I don't think I'll want to do it every single day. Nothing wrong with the occasional tonsil, lap chole, or day spent on L&D.

 

[maceo]

This is the reason I'm trying to get going on locking down a cards fellowship now, 2 months into CA-2 year. I want there to be absolutely no doubt that I bring expertise to the table that a CRNA cannot bring.

That and I've discovered I love cardiac anesthesia.

what do you like the arrogant surgeons, the cold rooms, or the long cases 5-6 hours ? which one do you like most? or the 800 dollar fee for the tee exam and the privelege to give them more money when your cert is up?

 

[Coastie]

what do you like the arrogant surgeons, the cold rooms, or the long cases 5-6 hours ? which one do you like most? or the 800 dollar fee for the tee exam and the privelege to give them more money when your cert is up?

FWIW, I love cardiac too.

 

[OB1🤙]

what do you like the arrogant surgeons, the cold rooms, or the long cases 5-6 hours ? which one do you like most? or the 800 dollar fee for the tee exam and the privelege to give them more money when your cert is up?

All of them. I'm a masochist.

And when my hearts take 5-6 hours, I call that a good day.

 

[coprolalia]

The job I landed is heavy in regional and OB, moderate in CV, and low in peds. I'm not saying it's worth the year off, monetarily. But I can tell you that if all things were equal, my group would have hired an OB or regional fellowship trained anesthesiologist over me. I just want to point out that other fellowships are not necessarily a waste of time, if it gets you a good paying job in a good city.

Really? I find this a little far fetched.

Unless you are going academic, I'd think a year doing essentially OB anesthesia could not possibly be a bigger waste of time.

-copro

 

[BLADEMDA]

Yeah, politics suck.

I've become much less worried about CRNAs as I've become an attending. I never worked with them much as a resident. Now that I've supervised them, I can count at least 4 instances in 2 months in which a patient would have died had an MD not intervened.

That being said, of course it's important to be involved politically.

Been saying the same thing on SDN for 2 years.

 

[jessica78]

Has anybody heard anything about UW pain program ? I have applied there but apparently there is a huge mess over there. a friend of mine who is a resident there told me that two or three fellows are going to resign from the program because of the new chief (cahana) . she said all of them are very unhappy and filed a complaint in GME.

 

[CambieMD]

Been saying the same thing on SDN for 2 years.

Blade I appreciate the effort that you put into your posts. I find them very informative.

I suppervise CRNAs. I have a lot of respect for the CRNAs with whom I work but CRNA does not equal MD. The opposite view may be advanced by nurses and those who see using nurses as a way to save $$$. There is absolutely no argument.

Be careful in selecting a job. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. The max income that you can make is different from what you will take home.
There are guys out there who just completed their residency and they are already looking for another job. All that glitters is not gold.

Cambie