Calculus based physics after testing out of calculus

[devilish20]

I'm starting to think about my classes for the upcoming fall semester (I will be a freshman at Duke)
From what I've heard from current students, Calculus 1 (and math in general) kills a lot of GPAs, and I have a 5 in Calculus AB that I could use in lieu of taking the class to fulfill the med school prereq. My intended major does not require any math past Cal 1 so hypothetically I could just take Statistics and no other math classes in undergraduate. However, I'm worried about taking calculus-based physics (probably in my junior year) with no calculus since high school. Does anyone have any advice on how much calculus is needed for physics and/or the MCAT? I'm also wondering if med schools will look unfavorably upon me for using AP credit instead of taking math classes. I don't want to make a mistake with my freshman schedule that comes back to bite me later.

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[eteshoe]

If you choose to take Calc II (which I would recommend) - use Paul Dawkin's Math Notes (Google it). Calc based physics at least at the freshman level (classical mechanics, waves, elementary thermo, electromagnetism, optics, etc) will most likely use geometry, algebra, differential calc (Calc I) and some integral calc (Calc II). Beyond calc II, there may not be much point in pursuing that level of math except if you are going to be an engineering major, comp sci, physics, or just love math.

 

[devilish20]

If you choose to take Calc II (which I would recommend) - use Paul Dawkin's Math Notes (Google it). Calc based physics at least at the freshman level (classical mechanics, waves, elementary thermo, electromagnetism, optics, etc) will most likely use geometry, algebra, differential calc (Calc I) and some integral calc (Calc II). Beyond calc II, there may not be much point in pursuing that level of math except if you are going to be an engineering major, comp sci, physics, or just love math.

Thank you for replying! I will certainly look into those math notes. why do you recommend Calc II?

 

[eteshoe]

Thank you for replying! I will certainly look into those math notes. why do you recommend Calc II?

No problem. I recommend calc II since it's the very least calc class that'll introduce you to integral calculus (and some applications). Some physics courses may gloss over the techniques and others will just use shortcuts that may not be useful on an exam if you are not sure about where the shortcuts are coming from.

 

[CowboyNiceguy]

If you got a 5 on the AP exam, I wouldn't worry about calc I destroying your GPA. It should be mostly review and an easy A. I took it at a university while I was in high school (which was probably easier than scoring a 5 on the AP test) and then retook it my first semester when the credits didn't transfer.

I liked knowing calc-based physics because it makes things easier to remember for the MCAT, but it is not necessary. If you are worried about your grades you will be fine taking a non-calc physics.

 

[doc05]

med schools won't care if you tested out of calc... but keep in mind that if you got a 5, you're probably giving up an easy "A".

As for calc-based physics, yes, it may be a challenge if you wait until junior year, with no calc since high school. you can always take non-calc-based physics, as med schools won't care either.

what is your intended major?

 

[devilish20]

med schools won't care if you tested out of calc... but keep in mind that if you got a 5, you're probably giving up an easy "A".

As for calc-based physics, yes, it may be a challenge if you wait until junior year, with no calc since high school. you can always take non-calc-based physics, as med schools won't care either.

what is your intended major?

I'm undecided between public policy with a concentration in health policy or perhaps neuroscience (the BS requires Calc II, AB just Calc I)

 

[jih]

I have taken calculus based physics for my engineering degree and sat in non-calculus lectures for other reasons. If you are capable of doing calculus (it is not a hindrance to solving a problem) then I would recommend it. Instead of just throwing equations at you like in non-calculus physics (something that many premeds complain about), you actually derive most of the equations using calculus. You will get a lot more out of the class and probably have an easier time on the MCAT.

I would say that the most you need to be able to do is simple derivatives and integrals. The hardest ones you will do involve the natural log.

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[Obnoxious Dad]

I have taken calculus based physics for my engineering degree and sat in non-calculus lectures for other reasons. If you are capable of doing calculus (it is not a hindrance to solving a problem) then I would recommend it. Instead of just throwing equations at you like in non-calculus physics (something that many premeds complain about), you actually derive most of the equations using calculus. You will get a lot more out of the class and probably have an easier time on the MCAT.

I would say that the most you need to be able to do is simple derivatives and integrals. The hardest ones you will do involve the natural log.

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There is NO, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO published evidence that taking calculus based physics, as opposed to algebra based physics, will improve your MCAT score. This whole thread, with the usual trolling that people should pursue the most rigorous undergraduate education with lots of calculus and calculus based physics, is utter nonsense. Unfortunately for the OP, he is going to Duke which does not offer algebra based physics. Duke is his first mistake. I know. I know. He won't get into medical school at Columbia unless he proves himself in neuroscience at Duke. No matter what he does, it's extremely unlikely that he'll get into an Ivy League med school anyway.

I certainly hope he will get enough of a scholarship to reduce the penalty of not going to his state's flagship public university. I'm sure he will get bragging rights in his high school cafeteria when he tells people he's going to Duke. Unfortunately, it's likely he'll get washed out of medicine. He can sit in the stands at Cameron with all of the other Ivy League wannabes and plan where he'll do his five post docs in biochemistry.

 

[CowboyNiceguy]

There is NO, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO published evidence that taking calculus based physics, as opposed to algebra based physics, will improve your MCAT score. This whole thread, with the usual trolling that people should pursue the most rigorous undergraduate education with lots of calculus and calculus based physics, is utter nonsense.

No one is claiming that there is published evidence that it will help. But if you take calculus-based physics, it is easy to see how it will help. You will understand where equations come from while your peers that took an algebra-based physics class will have to memorize them. If you can get an A in calc-based physics then it's worth taking. If not, then don't take it.

Literally no one talked about getting into an Ivy for med school and you're being extremely dramatic.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

No one is claiming that there is published evidence that it will help. But if you take calculus-based physics, it is easy to see how it will help. You will understand where equations come from while your peers that took an algebra-based physics class will have to memorize them. If you can get an A in calc-based physics then it's worth taking. If not, then don't take it.

Literally no one talked about getting into an Ivy for med school and you're being extremely dramatic.

It's easy to see something without any published evidence? The notion that calculus based physics gives an applicant a leg up is just your prejudice. Show me the data, please.

I've seen numerous threads about this subject and it's always the same spiel: You need to go to a place like Duke, Vanderbilt, MIT etc and take a tough major if you want to get into a top 20 medical school. The fact is less than 15% of the people who get into allopathic medical schools major in the physical sciences. See the link:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

Given the shortage of physicians, nobody cares where you get an MD unless you want to have a miserable existence in academic medicine at someplace like Hopkins. Who needs that?

 

[eteshoe]

It's easy to see something without any published evidence? The notion that calculus based physics gives an applicant a leg up is just your prejudice. Show me the data, please.

I've seen numerous threads about this subject and it's always the same spiel: You need to go to a place like Duke, Vanderbilt, MIT etc and take a tough major if you want to get into a top 20 medical school. The fact is less than 15% of the people who get into allopathic medical schools major in the physical sciences. See the link:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

Given the shortage of physicians, nobody cares where you get an MD unless you want to have a miserable existence in academic medicine at someplace like Hopkins. Who needs that?

I fail to see what your rant brings to this discussion. The OP is going to Duke and we're giving advice on why calc-based physics can be seen as useful (and calc II). There is no "published" data but understanding how the equations in physics are derived does tend to lead to a higher MCAT score. Taking the fundamental classes leads to understanding these equations that govern physical phenomena.

 

[CowboyNiceguy]

It's easy to see something without any published evidence? The notion that calculus based physics gives an applicant a leg up is just your prejudice. Show me the data, please.

I've seen numerous threads about this subject and it's always the same spiel: You need to go to a place like Duke, Vanderbilt, MIT etc and take a tough major if you want to get into a top 20 medical school. The fact is less than 15% of the people who get into allopathic medical schools major in the physical sciences. See the link:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

Given the shortage of physicians, nobody cares where you get an MD unless you want to have a miserable existence in academic medicine at someplace like Hopkins. Who needs that?

You have strayed from the topic of the OP. No, I do not have any scientific studies to reference proving that calc based physics will help. But the mcat is not studied as a science and we can make statements based on logic. My education is in mechanical science so I'm speaking from experience when I say that having a more rigorous physics education will benefit a student when they are later tested on physics.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I fail to see what your rant brings to this discussion. The OP is going to Duke and we're giving advice on why calc-based physics can be seen as useful (and calc II). There is no "published" data but understanding how the equations in physics are derived does tend to lead to a higher MCAT score. Taking the fundamental classes leads to understanding these equations that govern physical phenomena.

Who, other than you, says that taking calculus based physics leads to higher MCAT scores? This is simply your prejudice and nothing more. If you haven't got published studies, you've got zip. You know very well that the physics on the MCAT is all algebra based. It's presented on the MCAT in largely the same way as algebra based physics classes. Rather than trying to figure out the process, the student just recalls the formulae from memory and plugs them in. In fact there's a paper on this very subject by a physics professor named Gardo Blado in "Teaching Physics" which basically shows professors of algebra based physics how to help their students "game" the physics portion of the MCAT. What a guy!

You have no reason to give this kid any advice about the merits of taking calculus based physics if he goes to Duke. Calculus based physics is all that Duke offers. That's why going to Duke as a premed is just dumb!

 

[devilish20]

I am receiving enough scholarships to make Duke $15,000 a year, which is equivalent to my state school.
Thank you everyone for your responses.
Duke does not offer algebra based physics, and therefore I am planning on taking the calculus based physics. I am simply wondering what level of calculus this physics course entails. Thank you!

 

[eteshoe]

Who, other than you, says that taking calculus based physics leads to higher MCAT scores? This is simply your prejudice and nothing more. If you haven't got published studies, you've got zip. You know very well that the physics on the MCAT is all algebra based. It's presented on the MCAT in largely the same way as algebra based physics classes. Rather than trying to figure out the process, the student just recalls the formulae from memory and plugs them in. In fact there's a paper on this very subject by a physics professor named Gardo Blado in "Teaching Physics" which basically shows professors of algebra based physics how to help their students "game" the physics portion of the MCAT. What a guy!

You have no reason to give this kid any advice about the merits of taking calculus based physics if he goes to Duke. Calculus based physics is all that Duke offers. That's why going to Duke as a premed is just dumb!

Calm down. If the OP is good enough to get into Duke and do well, they'll be fine once application time comes. And if they choose not to do medicine, the Duke name will open quite a few other doors. I went to a tough school (HYPSM-like) majoring in the physical sciences & engineering and while I didn't keep a 4.0, I did well enough that I wasn't shocked once I started my MD/PhD program at a top 10 school. Yes, that's anecdotal evidence, but growing as a student through a tough major usually isn't detrimental unless the student refuses to change their study habits. And if the OP decides to take an easier major, being at Duke won't decrease their preparedness for the rigors of med school.

"Gaming" the system is fine, but one isn't going to "game" med school, so they might as well learn how to learn. That's what a good college education will provide.

I am receiving enough scholarships to make Duke $15,000 a year, which is equivalent to my state school.
Thank you everyone for your responses.
Duke does not offer algebra based physics, and therefore I am planning on taking the calculus based physics. I am simply wondering what level of calculus this physics course entails. Thank you!

Congrats on the scholarship(s). Hopefully some of the posts were useful to you. Enjoy Duke and the Blue Devils nation!

 

[doc05]

I am receiving enough scholarships to make Duke $15,000 a year, which is equivalent to my state school.
Thank you everyone for your responses.
Duke does not offer algebra based physics, and therefore I am planning on taking the calculus based physics. I am simply wondering what level of calculus this physics course entails. Thank you!

while I didn't go to Duke, I can tell you that calc-based physics I and II at every school includes fairly elementary concepts and you should be fine. advanced physics is a different story, but you'll need more than calculus for that.

But.... keep in mind that an "A" is an "A". Don't take the AP credit...start with calc I and get the easy A.

best of luck/

 

[jih]

Wow never thought I'd get a reaction like that... Guess I should have added n=1.