Can a 0.00 GPA( over 4 semesters) be overcome ?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
:D @spicedmanna, you got some strong points there. But the smoking analogy was pure hyperbole meant to show how insanely rigid the application process can get as well as the double standards inherent in the system itself. You do agree the system that does not punish cadaver-debasing doctors is flawed, I hope ? I do get your overall message tho. Thanks.


Sunnyjohn,

Assuming I do all of that: Killer MCATS, Killer LORs, Killer PS, Killer PS, you honestly think that my sub-sub-par GPA won't pose a huuuuuuge disadvatange, at best ?

Members don't see this ad.
 
@spicedmanna, you got some strong points there. But the smoking analogy was pure hyperbole meant to show how insanely rigid the application process can get as well as the double standards inherent in the system itself. You do agree the system that does not punish cadaver-debasing doctors is flawed, I hope ? I do get your overall message tho. Thanks.

Yeah, I know the system is flawed. I have the rebel in me, too. That's one of the reasons I want to be a doctor. So I can help change the system that has some very fundamental flaws. I need to be in integrity, though, to accomplish that. It's important. ;)
 
Assuming I do all of that: Killer MCATS, Killer LORs, Killer PS, Killer PS, you honestly think that my sub-sub-par GPA won't pose a huuuuuuge disadvatange, at best ?

Nobody can tell for sure. Do your level best with both heart and mind along for the ride; the rest can't be controlled. I challenge you, with your best Rocky-esque approach, to balk the system the best way possible: by proving them wrong. I can tell you that my experience is that there is true magic in commitment and integrity. You can come out on top, if you stick to your guns and put in your optimal best. Will it always look like what you imagined? Probably not. I hope you get your shot, though. And when you do, make sure you shoot with all that you've got. ;)
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you've "lived" at the age of 23 (I know.. I was 23 once too and thought I'd "lived" - boy was I wrong), then you'd know life ain't fair. Live with it (no pun intended), play by the rules, and put yourself in the best light possible while not being dishonest about it. This means not lying and not deliberately failing to disclose information. Turn this potential disadvantage (ok, I admit it's a biggie) into a potential advantage.

Yes, criminals get their records purged. We're supposed to be better than criminals, aren't we?? Again, life ain't fair. You gonna try to make lemonade or complain about the sourness of the lemons???

Now, everyone to your own neutral corners and have a hot chocolate (or hot toddy, whichever you prefer). Personally, I'll be drinking mimosas and eating leftover chinese take-out. :)
 
Assuming I do all of that: Killer MCATS, Killer LORs, Killer PS, Killer PS, you honestly think that my sub-sub-par GPA won't pose a huuuuuuge disadvatange, at best ?

Maybe the top 20 will be a much further reach than for most, but if you do things right, tell it like it is and consider every option out there (this one burns a lot of would-be successful applicants), I believe you'll be a physician. From my limited experience in medical school, it's all about drive, compassion and dedication. Show that along with your killer everything, and you'll likely be graduating as a doc at some point.

Best of luck to you.
 
:D @spicedmanna, you got some strong points there. But the smoking analogy was pure hyperbole meant to show how insanely rigid the application process can get as well as the double standards inherent in the system itself. You do agree the system that does not punish cadaver-debasing doctors is flawed, I hope ? I do get your overall message tho. Thanks.


Sunnyjohn,

Assuming I do all of that: Killer MCATS, Killer LORs, Killer PS, Killer PS, you honestly think that my sub-sub-par GPA won't pose a huuuuuuge disadvatange, at best ?

Look it's not easy but I started by telling you yes you can do it, Hell I'm a rebel why do you think I'm in the Caribbean? I hate the system in the US, it designed to keep you in College trying to up GPA's BS, MS POST BAC PHD's and people still do not get accepted, but look you can do it without Lying, thats the thing, once you lie you start down a black hole look I have 20 years on you and I can tell you 20 years ago is yesterday to me and so will any lie you do it will always be there without distance. DO this right and be strong.
 
The only thing I would further add to the discussion is that right now, if I were you, I would report your prior academic endeavors to your current institution for them to have during your records. You want to make sure all of your bases are covered. Like everyone else said, you might even get into a good school dispite your circumstances, but what will that matter if your current university finds out and takes back your degree while you are in medical school? Then bye med school and youre out of luck...

Maybe not everyone will cut you a break, but someone will. No matter how amazing or questionable credentials may be, even the most talented medical students need someone to cut them a break and grant them entrance. Those of us who do make it are blessed, no matter where we are and there is always someone else who can take our seat in the class.

The first time I took the MCAT (took it twice) I didnt do so hot...somehow I got an interview at a medical school anyway...the first question I was asked (on my first interview) was bluntly "what happened on your MCAT?" I did not expect this and was completely thrown. But I just owned up to it and said, "Maybe it wasn't my day, I dunno...I wish I could have done better, I studied very hard, but it just didn't work out." Two weeks later, the acceptance letter came. Maybe it won't always work out that way, but I think my interviewer appreciated my candor. Just put it all on the table and tell them to take it or leave it, you should be able to demand that your educators respect you for who you are. You'd be surprised how many of those who sit on the adcoms had a rough lot in life also.

While there's some sensical points in this, I don't quite understand why you retook the MCAT if you were accepted based on your first MCAT try???
 
Something the OP should keep in mind -

When it comes to med school admissions, adcoms have the final say in admissions.

I know, you're thinking "no ****!".

But what you may not realize is that your story of your first 4 semesters may be nothing but a sob story to them. You chose not to share it so those that are posting on this thread can't give truly informed advice, and have to take your word on it. But what we do know, that you've shared with us, is that you've already lied in UG admissions, and are contemplating doing it for med school admissions. We know that you're on your third try at a university. Please forgive us for calling you out on what we do know, and not giving advice on what we don't know.

Reading this thread, there are so many SDNers that have overcome hardship the right way, despite the "bureaucratic red-tape". Learn from them. If you really want to go to med school, your road won't be easy, but you'll be immensely happy with the results.

Also, there are MANY SDNers that have had great accomplishments by their mid-20's. Personally, at 23, I was found to be in remission of cancer and kept my head above water with a 3.4 even through treatments, got my M.S. (3.9 gpa) and lived/worked in New Zealand as a speech therapist. Now, at 30, I've got published research from a PhD program, and a private therapy practice, plus much, much more.

My point of telling you about myself is that there are tons of people on SDN that have done good things, and they have done well academically. And there are those who started out rocky but have taken their time and accumulated a killer CV along the way (some who have posted in this thread). You will be up against people like that when it comes to admissions, so you need to bring your A-game if you really want to do this, and definitely start by forgetting about lying about your transcripts.

Plus, it's good to give the people you're asking advice from the whole story, no matter how hard it is, not bits and pieces so you'll like what you hear.
 
While there's some sensical points in this, I don't quite understand why you retook the MCAT if you were accepted based on your first MCAT try???

At the time, I felt as though my chances at getting into more schools would be better by re-taking the exam. And also my first score wasn't good enough for me, because I knew that I could do much better, and I had on practice exams that I took. Fortunately for me the second time did go a lot better.

Partially a pride thing too, I want to do my best at everything I do, regardless of whether or not it makes me look better...
 
-- Rhetorical Question (for those of you who have ever smoked a cigarette): If AMCAS includes a clause in the application process that severely curtails the chances of any smoker (chain, once-a-week, once-a-lifetime-and-I'm-never-doing it again) to compete for medical school, would you with all your academic honesty and honorable integrity check yes, I have indeed smoked a cig once in the 7th grade, your AMCAS majesty. And then proceed to collect all your rejection letters. It's not so black-and-white anymore, is it? And before somebody interjects with "ridiculous hypothetical". Here's what's more ridiculous: .....on second thought, scratch that...it'll sidetrack our discussion (hint: cadaver-stealing doc allowed to continue residency. Integrity galore. Go Wise-Men of Medicine. I can quote a multitude of example showcasing how abusive and fraudulent docs were granted leeway after a suitable show of penance. Hypocrisy much ?...not justifying my case, just widening the view)
At what point does political correctness run amok? rhetorical again. Think about it.

-- As I stated earlier, I'm not looking for a shortcut. I'm more than able and willing to do my time. Whether it's post-back, Caribbean or any other option. What I cannot accept, however, is a roadblock in the form of this archaic rule. Convicts get their criminal records expunged. Felons of the worst sort receive presidential pardons. But ill ol' premed can't rectify (not asking for a pardon, mind you....rectify..fix) 4 semesters of undue, unrelenting hell? And if I ignore said law, that suddenly makes me a fraud/no-integrity/dishonest individual? How'd that old Kit-Kat commercial go: "Gimme a break, giiiiime a break..gimmea break of some common sense!!)


Are you friggin kidding me!?!:eek: You're mad...just mad. Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. My husband is a police officer and when he applied he told them about every small infraction (including the tie his roommate ate then regurgitated then blended and drank a fish). That's integrity. The AMCAS rule isn't archaic. I have no idea what you went through, but let me give you a scenario since you seem to like them (and my scenario is even better because it is true). My mom died when I was 19. I withdrew from school to move in and care for my father and younger brother. The next three years I experienced a serious personal illness, my husband (then fiancé) was sent overseas, I moved in to care for my father-in-law, my house burned down, my father passed away, and I had a baby. All of this resulted in withdrawals...but I kept up my 3.96 GPA. Now you and I are both applying to medical school. Don't you think the adcom will compare the way we both handled our struggles? Medical school is difficult, and it is impossible to predict future life events. You need to prove that you can hack it. Bottom line.

And as for you comparing your lying o the felon getting a pardon...just because someone does something worse than you does NOT absolve you of responsibility for your actions. That would be like saying we shouldn't bother prosecuting rapist because there are people out there that rape and murder.
 
You are all correct in telling him not to hide his past, cause if he got caught, which he probably would, his chances of ever getting into med school would be ZERO.

I do want to point out that the OP makes a good point though with the "criminal record get erased" analogy. I think someone else posted this before, but it is true. You can get a criminal record, points on you license, bad credit, and other things like that completely off your record after a period of time. But get a bad GPA when you were 18 or 19, and it will stay with you and be used as a judging factor for the rest of you life. If you robbed someone when you were 18, and now you are 30, most people would say, "Oh he was just a kid then. He is 30 years old now and a different person now. We cannot judge him on something he did 12 years ago."

But get an F your freshman year in sociology, you will here about it when you are 30 if you plan on applying to medical school. That just seems kind of ridiculous 12 years later, especially if you have proved yourself with and upward trend, post-bacc or smp.
 
Even if you have a record expunged, you still have to answer truthfully to the question "Have you ever been convicted of a felony" in an application. It's not like it never happened.
 
You are all correct in telling him not to hide his past, cause if he got caught, which he probably would, his chances of ever getting into med school would be ZERO.

I do want to point out that the OP makes a good point though with the "criminal record get erased" analogy. I think someone else posted this before, but it is true. You can get a criminal record, points on you license, bad credit, and other things like that completely off your record after a period of time. But get a bad GPA when you were 18 or 19, and it will stay with you and be used as a judging factor for the rest of you life. If you robbed someone when you were 18, and now you are 30, most people would say, "Oh he was just a kid then. He is 30 years old now and a different person now. We cannot judge him on something he did 12 years ago."

But get an F your freshman year in sociology, you will here about it when you are 30 if you plan on applying to medical school. That just seems kind of ridiculous 12 years later, especially if you have proved yourself with and upward trend, post-bacc or smp.

Well, even if that F is there, it doesn't totally rule you out, does it? Especially if you have "proved yourself with an upward trend, post-bacc or smp". Sure, you're a tougher sell with a past history of academic troubles -- but, if you LIE and get found out (at any point, including AFTER you get in or AFTER you get your MD), you're done. In terms of your dream of becoming a doctor, there's absolutely no coming back from that. I think that is the main point we've been trying to get across to the OP -- he/she seems to be looking for some kind of support or justification for lying about his/her academic record. It seems we all agree this is an exceedingly bad idea.

As an aside, I might point out that if you robbed someone when you were 18, don't be so sure everyone would be willing to put that aside in their judgment of you just because it happened a decade ago. I for one would be uncomfortable trusting someone like that, even if the offense was a while back. I understand some might be more willing to overlook something like that, but to say "most people" is likely an overstatement.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
There are several problems in our society that brings us to this:

We have not brought our children up with the morals we should have, "Everybody lies" is crap we "Allow" Kids to be "Kids" and get away with too much like skipping school and drinking underage and smoking. These things teach them that it's ok to do things that are lies, it's ok if you do not get caught.

My own daughter (15) spent time with me where her Boyfriend (Shutter) was calling her every 15 minutes she did not answer till 50 minutes later, when she did she lied, she said "My phone was off" I was very upset and told her she should not lie and she said "I did not want to hurt his feelings" But I told her she will get caught and then the hurt will be 10x worse because now he will not trust her.

thats the moral here, we will be telling people Diagnosis and that "We are on the case" and people trust us to be truthful and Medical schools and Licensing boards expect us to tell the truth in what we believe and find in Diagnosis so if we are caught lying then credibility is shot and so is our practice.............................:eek:

SO if caught then you get kicked out of school because they never would have accepted you in the first place if they knew you lied then, but many have told the truth and worked hard and are Doctors now.

This is up to the OP and anyone else reading this, telling the truth is required to be a Doctor. No ifs ands or Buts..........................no exceptions
 
Just to set the record straight, I NEVER robbed anyone and I did not get an F in freshman sociololgy. :laugh: :laugh:

Those two examples were completely hypothetical. Just wanted to point out that i am not a criminal psychopath or anything like that.:D

"Help Help!!! Thief!!!"

"Shut up ya old bag."
 
Just to set the record straight, I NEVER robbed anyone and I did not get an F in freshman sociololgy. :laugh: :laugh:

Those two examples were completely hypothetical. Just wanted to point out that i am not a criminal psychopath or anything like that.:D

"Help Help!!! Thief!!!"

"Shut up ya old bag."

:eek: You mean I've been operating on a false premise this whole time?? :laugh: Just kidding... I knew you were waxing hypothetical.

:laugh: :)
 
:eek: You mean I've been operating on a false premise this whole time?? :laugh: Just kidding... I knew you were waxing hypothetical.

:laugh: :)

Definately. I never robbed anyone when I was 18. I did kill a group of children though. Wait...I mean...:laugh: :laugh:
 
Gametime, I am quite familiar with THE frustration... and the analogy you have drawn (criminal records) is something I have felt and expressed before. However, you are not even on the peripheries of the admissions process yet, since you have not really attended an undergrad institution, so I am straining to understand the source of your angst. Regardless, I agree that a bad GPA can be a terrifying nightmare from which you feel unable to awaken. Sadly, you are not the only one to live with that nightmare, and as devastating as your circumstances may seem to you, others have circumstances just as devastating to them. I had originally posted my story in one of my first threads here, then took it off to preserve anonymity (some of it is just too personal)... but this thread has compelled me to post it again.

I graduated from HS at 16 (12 months after moving to the US) among the top 20 students of my class of 500 (and English was my third language). My step-dad became physically incapacitated 2 months before graduation and I was one of his 2 main caretakers. I was a 16-17 year-old freshman undergrad with a sick parent and still struggling to keep up with English. I made it through freshman year and was gaining my footing in sophomore year (pulling A's in Organic Chemistry!). Then, in the first semester of junior year I was raped on campus (by a stranger, not at a party, with NO drugs or alcohol involved... at least on my part) and I failed all of my classes. I became physically ill afterwards and withdrew from school 2nd semester. I came back the next year and in the middle of the fall semester my father committed suicide. I failed everything again. I tried to rally in the spring, then my step-father died in the middle of the semester... I failed everything again. I did not go to another institution and pretend that the previous years did not happen (although I was still fairly young... only 20), I came back and struggled (at the same big, ugly state institution which could not care less for one infinitesimal little undergrad like me) through several exceedingly painful years (dealing with too many issues to worry about getting a 4.0) in order to finish my degree. I went on to a masters program and got a 3.85 GPA, but discovered that the masters was no help in fixing a bad undergrad GPA.

I am now planning on a second bachelors degree beginning this fall... and yes, I did send my new school ALL of my transcripts, the first undergrad and the grad. I will be putting my nose to the grindstone for the next 2-3 years, retaking the MCAT (I had a 30+ score twice before)... and throwing myself at the mercy of the admissions committees again starting in June of 2009, and I am not holding my breath... because I know, I KNOW, they will throw my first undergrad GPA in my face - talk about adding insult to injury! Do I think I can "hack it"... hey, my IQ is 159, my MCAT scores were above 30, I'm socially competent, deeply empathetic, and a decent human being to the core (and I am an incredible speller with a large vocabulary, not to mention that I bake some amazing cakes :p )... but that is not how the system works. So, if by winter 2010 I have not been accepted anywhere then I will apply to SMPs and try again in the next cycle.

Life is not fair, but it does build character! And at the end of the day, the integrity of your character and the value of your soul are all you have. You may be feeling blase as I wax idealistic here, perhaps even thinking: "Hey Underdog, that's really nice! I'll remember you fondly as I'm sitting in my med school classes while you are still running around knocking on adcom doors, because I was slick enough to manipulate the system and you were too hung up on integrity." There is just one caveat - in the practice of medicine you will come up against hurdles which you will be unable to side-step by "intentionally by accident forgetting" something (e.g., 4 semesters at a CC). In these instances, it is quite likely that the gaping hole in your integrity will render you unable to be of service to your patients and ultimately to yourself, damaging you as a professional and marginalizing you as a person.
 
How many of you would be willing to take that kind of chance on your dream? To get through 4 years of UG, geting into and survive 4 years of medical school, what 3-4 years minimum residency all the while knowing at any moment it could all come falling down? That you lied to get into UG, which invalidates your bachelors, your medical degree, your elgibilty for a license, and oh did I mention the massive student loans that now you can't conceivably pay off in this lifetime because you just blew 10+ non-income producing years for a career you can't practice legally?
 
Gametime, I am quite familiar with THE frustration... and the analogy you have drawn (criminal records) is something I have felt and expressed before. However, you are not even on the peripheries of the admissions process yet, since you have not really attended an undergrad institution, so I am straining to understand the source of your angst. Regardless, I agree that a bad GPA can be a terrifying nightmare from which you feel unable to awaken. Sadly, you are not the only one to live with that nightmare, and as devastating as your circumstances may seem to you, others have circumstances just as devastating to them. I had originally posted my story in one of my first threads here, then took it off to preserve anonymity (some of it is just too personal)... but this thread has compelled me to post it again.

I graduated from HS at 16 (12 months after moving to the US) among the top 20 students of my class of 500 (and English was my third language). My step-dad became physically incapacitated 2 months before graduation and I was one of his 2 main caretakers. I was a 16-17 year-old freshman undergrad with a sick parent and still struggling to keep up with English. I made it through freshman year and was gaining my footing in sophomore year (pulling A's in Organic Chemistry!). Then, in the first semester of junior year I was raped on campus (by a stranger, not at a party, with NO drugs or alcohol involved... at least on my part) and I failed all of my classes. I became physically ill afterwards and withdrew from school 2nd semester. I came back the next year and in the middle of the fall semester my father committed suicide. I failed everything again. I tried to rally in the spring, then my step-father died in the middle of the semester... I failed everything again. I did not go to another institution and pretend that the previous years did not happen (although I was still fairly young... only 20), I came back and struggled (at the same big, ugly state institution which could not care less for one infinitesimal little undergrad like me) through several exceedingly painful years (dealing with too many issues to worry about getting a 4.0) in order to finish my degree. I went on to a masters program and got a 3.85 GPA, but discovered that the masters was no help in fixing a bad undergrad GPA.

I am now planning on a second bachelors degree beginning this fall... and yes, I did send my new school ALL of my transcripts, the first undergrad and the grad. I will be putting my nose to the grindstone for the next 2-3 years, retaking the MCAT (I had a 30+ score twice before)... and throwing myself at the mercy of the admissions committees again starting in June of 2009, and I am not holding my breath... because I know, I KNOW, they will throw my first undergrad GPA in my face - talk about adding insult to injury! Do I think I can "hack it"... hey, my IQ is 159, my MCAT scores were above 30, I'm socially competent, deeply empathetic, and a decent human being to the core (and I am an incredible speller with a large vocabulary, not to mention that I bake some amazing cakes :p )... but that is not how the system works. So, if by winter 2010 I have not been accepted anywhere then I will apply to SMPs and try again in the next cycle.

Life is not fair, but it does build character! And at the end of the day, the integrity of your character and the value of your soul are all you have. You may be feeling blase as I wax idealistic here, perhaps even thinking: "Hey Underdog, that's really nice! I'll remember you fondly as I'm sitting in my med school classes while you are still running around knocking on adcom doors, because I was slick enough to manipulate the system and you were too hung up on integrity." There is just one caveat - in the practice of medicine you will come up against hurdles which you will be unable to side-step by "intentionally by accident forgetting" something (e.g., 4 semesters at a CC). In these instances, it is quite likely that the gaping hole in your integrity will render you unable to be of service to your patients and ultimately to yourself, damaging you as a professional and marginalizing you as a person.

Underdog, you will get into med school, and you will go on to be a credit to the profession. It will be an honor and a privelege to have you as a colleague someday. :) Your strength of character is inspiring -- thanks for sharing your story, and best of luck to you!
 
Underdog, you will get into med school, and you will go on to be a credit to the profession. It will be an honor and a privelege to have you as a colleague someday. :) Your strength of character is inspiring -- thanks for sharing your story, and best of luck to you!

Quoted for truth. :thumbup:
 
There is a database that tracks EVERYTHING you do. The National Student Clearinghouse. The address is www.studentclearinghouse.org This is a National database that tracks EVERY school related thing you do. It appears to go back to a maximum of 10 years. My University gives all it's students free access to this database. It keeps track of all your student loans past and present, and your entire ENROLLMENT history. I found stuff in this database that I innocently forgot to mention on my college app! For instance, in 1997 I ENROLLED to take a 1 credit class on cake decorating at a community college, paid cash out of pocket, just one class in the evening. After attending the first class, I dropped it, well within the 100% refund period, no W's, no transcript. Well this database shows the date I enrolled and the date I withdrew :mad: !!!! Not only that, I wasn't even married yet, my maiden name is on that transcript. This database goes by soc # only, it doesn't care what state your in or how many names you have. This happened 10 years ago, I can't believe I forgot :laugh: . I know that this will not affect my medical school app, but the thought that Adcoms can see every school that I enrolled in is just plain creepy! This could've easily been my med school app, and it would've looked like I was lying :confused: . I don't know whether Adcoms use this database, but I think it's safe to assume they do. My adviser said that they like to use it to look for financial aid fraud, like a student that would enroll at two or more schools at once and collect money from each school, it's sad.

Gametime, I hope that you don't give up, or feel like you have to spin things in order to make it into med school or anything else you may attempt to do. Just know that there ARE exceptions to every rule, period. It's the journey not the destination, that will determine your outcome. Honesty and hard work will not go unrewarded. Your path may be unconventional (so is mine) but it's YOUR path, so own it and walk in integrity. You will never know what greatness lies ahead of you if you jeopardize it by lying, or by throwing in the towel too soon.

Billionaire Fashion Designer Giorgio Armani attended medical school at the University of Bologna for two years before he discovered he hated the sight of blood, and then he quit. He always "thought" he wanted to be a doctor. How many Billionaire doctors do you know? While this issue is not about money, it just goes to show you that Destiny is a funny thing, what he thought was his destiny wasn't meant for him at all. If this is for you, you will make it. You can make it even if it isn't for you ;) . Just focus on the journey, try to do it with as much integrity as you can, and don't forget make it a pleasurable experience. Work hard, have fun and enjoy your journey :) .
 
Gametime, I am quite familiar with THE frustration... and the analogy you have drawn (criminal records) is something I have felt and expressed before. However, you are not even on the peripheries of the admissions process yet, since you have not really attended an undergrad institution, so I am straining to understand the source of your angst. Regardless, I agree that a bad GPA can be a terrifying nightmare from which you feel unable to awaken. Sadly, you are not the only one to live with that nightmare, and as devastating as your circumstances may seem to you, others have circumstances just as devastating to them. I had originally posted my story in one of my first threads here, then took it off to preserve anonymity (some of it is just too personal)... but this thread has compelled me to post it again.

I graduated from HS at 16 (12 months after moving to the US) among the top 20 students of my class of 500 (and English was my third language). My step-dad became physically incapacitated 2 months before graduation and I was one of his 2 main caretakers. I was a 16-17 year-old freshman undergrad with a sick parent and still struggling to keep up with English. I made it through freshman year and was gaining my footing in sophomore year (pulling A's in Organic Chemistry!). Then, in the first semester of junior year I was raped on campus (by a stranger, not at a party, with NO drugs or alcohol involved... at least on my part) and I failed all of my classes. I became physically ill afterwards and withdrew from school 2nd semester. I came back the next year and in the middle of the fall semester my father committed suicide. I failed everything again. I tried to rally in the spring, then my step-father died in the middle of the semester... I failed everything again. I did not go to another institution and pretend that the previous years did not happen (although I was still fairly young... only 20), I came back and struggled (at the same big, ugly state institution which could not care less for one infinitesimal little undergrad like me) through several exceedingly painful years (dealing with too many issues to worry about getting a 4.0) in order to finish my degree. I went on to a masters program and got a 3.85 GPA, but discovered that the masters was no help in fixing a bad undergrad GPA.

I am now planning on a second bachelors degree beginning this fall... and yes, I did send my new school ALL of my transcripts, the first undergrad and the grad. I will be putting my nose to the grindstone for the next 2-3 years, retaking the MCAT (I had a 30+ score twice before)... and throwing myself at the mercy of the admissions committees again starting in June of 2009, and I am not holding my breath... because I know, I KNOW, they will throw my first undergrad GPA in my face - talk about adding insult to injury! Do I think I can "hack it"... hey, my IQ is 159, my MCAT scores were above 30, I'm socially competent, deeply empathetic, and a decent human being to the core (and I am an incredible speller with a large vocabulary, not to mention that I bake some amazing cakes :p )... but that is not how the system works. So, if by winter 2010 I have not been accepted anywhere then I will apply to SMPs and try again in the next cycle.

Life is not fair, but it does build character! And at the end of the day, the integrity of your character and the value of your soul are all you have. You may be feeling blase as I wax idealistic here, perhaps even thinking: "Hey Underdog, that's really nice! I'll remember you fondly as I'm sitting in my med school classes while you are still running around knocking on adcom doors, because I was slick enough to manipulate the system and you were too hung up on integrity." There is just one caveat - in the practice of medicine you will come up against hurdles which you will be unable to side-step by "intentionally by accident forgetting" something (e.g., 4 semesters at a CC). In these instances, it is quite likely that the gaping hole in your integrity will render you unable to be of service to your patients and ultimately to yourself, damaging you as a professional and marginalizing you as a person.

It is a shame your university would not let you withdraw from the semester(s) in which you had very serious extenuating circumstances. Most schools will let you withdraw from the semester (anytime before finals week) if you can prove extreme illness or hardship. Your story is compelling and coupled with your eloquence, will make one hell of a personal statement. I wish you all the best.
 
Thanks everyone for being supportive and encouraging... it really does help! :love:

Gametime, I do not know if you are still reading this thread. I am sorry if I was too blunt, I had no intention of ostracizing you. The fact that you came here looking for advice means that you realized there were problems inherent not only in the system but in the possible actions you are/were considering. I sincerely wish you strength and perseverance in achieving your goals and actualizing your dreams. :luck:

To Melissa: Unfortunately my undergrad school was really quite callous about the whole thing. My GPA had dropped so low that according to university policies I should have been placed on academic probation and barred from registering for classes until issues were resolved, but they happily registered me for full-time coursework, took my money, and watched with utter indifference as I kept failing. As far as proof, the school knew about most of my issues - the university police had to come find me and pull me out of class (literally) to inform me of the deaths. There are also two death certificates, a coroner's report (an autopsy was done on my dad because of the suicide), and a plethora of medical records. Perhaps they had a lot of people going through similar things, it is a big school, so I try not to get mad or judgmental. )
 
Thanks everyone for being supportive and encouraging... it really does help! :love:

Gametime, I do not know if you are still reading this thread. I am sorry if I was too blunt, I had no intention of ostracizing you. The fact that you came here looking for advice means that you realized there were problems inherent not only in the system but in the possible actions you are/were considering. I sincerely wish you strength and perseverance in achieving your goals and actualizing your dreams. :luck:

To Melissa: Unfortunately my undergrad school was really quite callous about the whole thing. My GPA had dropped so low that according to university policies I should have been placed on academic probation and barred from registering for classes until issues were resolved, but they happily registered me for full-time coursework, took my money, and watched with utter indifference as I kept failing. As far as proof, the school knew about most of my issues - the university police had to come find me and pull me out of class (literally) to inform me of the deaths. There are also two death certificates, a coroner's report (an autopsy was done on my dad because of the suicide), and a plethora of medical records. Perhaps they had a lot of people going through similar things, it is a big school, so I try not to get mad or judgmental. )

Wow. Just...wow. I had my share of insensitive professors. When my mother died I had to fight to get an incomplete in Calc (the dean eventually intervened). Also, I started having contractions during an O-Chem exam and the teacher wouldn't let me retake the exam. I'm not sure what she wanted me to do, give birth in class? To top it off she wouldn't give me an incomplete so I had to take the entire course over in the summer. None of that compares to your situation. No offense, but I hate your old school. As for your current situation, is your GPA such that you need to complete an entirely new degree or will a post bac program be sufficient? Medicine needs people like you as soon as possible.
 
Thank you all for your responses and stories, truly inspiring. That said, I understand why some(well, most of you) of you vehemently object to what you perceive as 'lying/fraud/illegal' and what I view as circumventing an unfair obstruction. Let me take one last crack at this issue before moving on to other questions I have.

The United States of America is willing (or all too willing, depending on your point of view) to give redemption to Mafia hit men (via their Witness Protection Program), run of the mill murderers, rapists, corrupt politicians, incorrigibly wicked foreign dictators, embezzlers, robbers, welfare cheats, and boatloads of other criminals . . . but not a young person who was caught up in life-threatening circumstances that were outside his control ? And that should forever preclude said young student from attending an American medical school? It doesn't seem fair. Correction: It's fundamentally flawed, is what it is.

I heard about a clergyman who admitted to having an affair with a boy many years ago. He was forgiven by his superiors, members of his church, and — strangely — even the local prosecutor. Hence, it's possible to rape a child and get off scot-free without suffering any consequence more serious than publicly apologizing for that transgression. But it is evidently taboo for a reformed student to obtain a fresh start?

I don't think it is criminal or unethical to want a fresh start academically. Others may disagree, but I'd love to hear them explain exactly why someone in my shoes does not deserve to start over. Medical school applicants frequently repeat the MCAT exam. I've never heard of an admissions committee member discount a MCAT score because it belonged to someone who retook that exam. If it's kosher to retake the MCAT, why can't you retake a class without incurring a perpetual black mark on your record? "Because the powers-that-be said so" Sorry, that's not a good enough reason for me.

The difficulty arises when you lie about something in order to circumvent admissions committees from discovering your initial college failures. That lie becomes the basis of the percieved moral transgression. Which, of course, takes us to those age-old ethics problems: Would you lie to save a life ? If you had the chance to amend(falsify, whatever) the organ donation list so that your ailing, dying mother would be first in line for the donor's liver rather than #234, would you do it ?

Some people would have you believe that: Nope, Sorry Mom, rules are rules. I would suffer from a condition called 'lack of integrity' if I went ahead and saved your life. G' Luck in Heaven.

Like I said earlier with all due respect: Give me a break of some common sense. The level of high-horse-itis in some( only 1 or 2) posts is stupefying. Now, I'm not equating my case to that of a dying mom, not at all, just showing you that it's not as black-and-white'ish as you'd like to see it. The sense I'm getting from some posts is: "We've also overcame tough hardships, put in our time and never challenged the rules, how dare this young upstart jump ahead without putting in his time, how dare he challenge the rules that throwed us off schedule but which we accepted ?"

And therein lies my point: I cannot accept a fudamentally unjust unfair law/rule. By my omitting my CC grades, I'm not hurting anybody.The only possible unethical aspect of this is that by retaking similar classes I might gain an unfair advantage over other students. If this is true, it should be unethical to study in preparation for a class. But that isn't unethical; it is a tool used by many students. And it should be unethical for high school students to take Advanced Placement courses . . . don't those courses give them an advantage over other college students and their peers ? It should also be unethical to audit or "sit in" on a class before taking it for a grade. But that isn't unethical. Finally, by repeating my freshman year, I'm not guaranteed of acing it and triumphing over others.

So I guess my only crime is not following/or violating flawed "rules and regulations". I can live with that, with my integrity being stronger than ever. AMCAS or any medical board won't teach me the meaning of intgerity and charachter. I live those values everyday.

Be back later with more Q's. Thanks again.
 
And therein lies my point: I cannot accept a fudamentally unjust unfair law/rule. By my omitting my CC grades, I'm not hurting anybody.The only possible unethical aspect of this is that by retaking similar classes I might gain an unfair advantage over other students. If this is true, it should be unethical to study in preparation for a class. But that isn't unethical; it is a tool used by many students. And it should be unethical for high school students to take Advanced Placement courses . . . don't those courses give them an advantage over other college students and their peers ? It should also be unethical to audit or "sit in" on a class before taking it for a grade. But that isn't unethical. Finally, by repeating my freshman year, I'm not guaranteed of acing it and triumphing over others.

So I guess my only crime is not following/or violating flawed "rules and regulations". I can live with that, with my integrity being stronger than ever. AMCAS or any medical board won't teach me the meaning of intgerity and charachter. I live those values everyday.

Be back later with more Q's. Thanks again.

Willfully lying about something and then signing your name by it because it makes things easier for you is way different than lying out of necessity for someone else i.e. your dying mother. The difference is that you have other options and all they require is more work. Even if you work extremely hard and can't make it into an allopathic program or osteopathic program, there are other ways to become a doctor (carribean).

I guess all of this is a bit of a moot point anyway because you are obviously already set on lying about your community college grades when you get to the application cycle AND you are still 3-4 years from that point. But I'll tell you what, in 4 years, come back and tell us your Cum GPA (without the CC grades) and how your dishonesty worked out. I'm pretty sure you'll get to August (providing you apply in June) and you will recieve an email from AMCAS saying your application was incomplete and that you need to send in transcripts from aforesaid community colleges, leaving you not only with a terrible Cum GPA, but also placing you somewhat late in the application cycle.

Anyway, tell us how it works for you, if any of us are still around. :D
 
Gametime, I guarantee you that those examples of felons that you cited would not get accepted to any accredited American medical school. There is only so much forgiveness to go around, and I won't even get started on the idiocy of organized religions that protect abusive felons and give them further access to children. As for the MCAT example, guess what, dude? Those scores NEVER go away. I had scores from 1996 on my file when I applied a decade later. The schools saw BOTH sets of scores. I'm not complaining, because my first set of scores weren't bad. But the point is, we all have to answer for our pasts. You do, too. I don't understand why you continue to insist that you're above the rules, but I for one am through trying to reason with you.
 
Gametime, I guarantee you that those examples of felons that you cited would not get accepted to any accredited American medical school. There is only so much forgiveness to go around, and I won't even get started on the idiocy of organized religions that protect abusive felons and give them further access to children. As for the MCAT example, guess what, dude? Those scores NEVER go away. I had scores from 1996 on my file when I applied a decade later. The schools saw BOTH sets of scores. I'm not complaining, because my first set of scores weren't bad. But the point is, we all have to answer for our pasts. You do, too. I don't understand why you continue to insist that you're above the rules, but I for one am through trying to reason with you.

Hey! Your a super mod now! When did that happen?
I think being a mod would be fun, except it would mean that I would spend even more time on SDN, and I already spend too much time here.
 
Hey! Your a super mod now! When did that happen?
I think being a mod would be fun, except it would mean that I would spend even more time on SDN, and I already spend too much time here.
Lee promoted me last summer when the MCAT scores came out. ;)
 
Qof and lilnoelle,

Please try to understand where I'm coming from:

a) I'm in no position to make any decisions about medical school as it's at least 3 years away. All I'm doing is exploring options and weighing alternatives. That's why I joined this discussion forum: to discuss.

b) I appreciate and respect all the experience, sacrifice, and diciplene of everybody that chooses to walk this path, but especially so, the inspiring stories of non-trad'ers. They're on a whole different level, in my opinion. That said, Just because I'm posing a different viewpoint does not make me arrogant, immature, a cheat, or any other adjectives others have thrown my way(not you two).

Question: Let's assume I went through with this and didn't mention my CC grades when applying. Let's also assume I get into a US medical school. Somewhere along the line(in school, residency, post-residency), if it does come out to the various boss-men that I did not report those grades, how can you be so sure that it will result in automatic dismissal or getting my license pulled? If a cadaver-debasing(cut off its hand, gave it to a stripper) resident can continue to a practice(sent to a different program) or a patient abusing doc still retains his doctorhood priviledges(just has to go to counseling, yeah I know it's ridiculous), why would I be hit with a iron fist ? Is it speculation or do you know actual cases where people were barred from practicing because they didn't mention CC grades they took when they were 17 years old ?

Also for Qof, I know you got a insanely high MCAT score(don't remember how much you said). Could you briefly state the 3 factors that helped you the most in attainting that score. Besides, a Nikon-Canon brain-camera hybrid :)
 
Qof and lilnoelle,

Please try to understand where I'm coming from:

a) I'm in no position to make any decisions about medical school as it's at least 3 years away. All I'm doing is exploring options and weighing alternatives. That's why I joined this discussion forum: to discuss.

b) I appreciate and respect all the experience, sacrifice, and diciplene of everybody that chooses to walk this path, but especially so, the inspiring stories of non-trad'ers. They're on a whole different level, in my opinion. That said, Just because I'm posing a different viewpoint does not make me arrogant, immature, a cheat, or any other adjectives others have thrown my way(not you two).

Question: Let's assume I went through with this and didn't mention my CC grades when applying. Let's also assume I get into a US medical school. Somewhere along the line(in school, residency, post-residency), if it does come out to the various boss-men that I did not report those grades, how can you be so sure that it will result in automatic dismissal or getting my license pulled? If a cadaver-debasing(cut off its hand, gave it to a stripper) resident can continue to a practice(sent to a different program) or a patient abusing doc still retains his doctorhood priviledges(just has to go to counseling, yeah I know it's ridiculous), why would I be hit with a iron fist ? Is it speculation or do you know actual cases where people were barred from practicing because they didn't mention CC grades they took when they were 17 years old ?

Its speculation. Who knows what they would do.... The thing is that getting into medical school is not the most difficult thing in the entire process. The difficulty getting acceptance is most talked about in SDN, but I think that is probably because the majority of frequent flyers here are premed students. The difficult thing (in terms of time and sacrifice) will be medical school and residency. I'd hate to take the chance that something WOULD be done and therefore not only would leave you with a large amount of loans that you can't pay off, but make you go through a HUGE amount of sacrifice and work for nothing.

Its possible that they would do nothing, however honesty, integrity, etc are things that are taken pretty seriously in medicine.

It is my guess that if you make it past the application cycle and your not found out by your med school before you matriculate, you are most likely home free. I think you WILL be discovered during the application cycle though and that is probably going to mean you will not be accepted that year. (which will then mean more work to bring your grades up and possibly retaking the MCAT if that expires) I'm also guessing when discovered during the application cycle, it will be looked on as a mistake rather than willfull dishonesty. The problem though with the above guess is that you have not notified past colleges of your previous coursework, which is apparently a bad thing. They (if they discover your previous grades) will have reason to see what you've done as dishonesty rather than a mistake because you have done it before and more than once.
 
Gametime,

The ends rarely justify the means. Your insistance on combating the system at this level is inefficient at best and unethical at worst. You proclaim that you want more just treatment of applicants, yet, you proceed to go out of integrity to do it. You have no credibility. This is like trying to put out the fire in someone elses house when your own is burning to the ground. If you want to make a change in the world, first change yourself. That's what many of the great souls of this world have done. If you insist on being ruthless, then be ruthless with yourself, where it will be of some benefit. Enough said. I stand by my original comments in previous pages.

Best of luck to you. I don't know where you got the notion that it can't be done. None of us said that. We just said that it could take a lot of work.
 
That said, I understand why some(well, most of you) of you vehemently object to what you perceive as 'lying/fraud/illegal' and what I view as circumventing an unfair obstruction.
I find it interesting that the only folks who feel it's okay "circumventing an unfair obstruction" (by the way, just call it what it is: cheating) always seem to be folks who happen to benefit from it. Go figger!
I cannot accept a fudamentally unjust unfair law/rule.
Who says it's unjust? I have a couple of F's and W's on my junior college transcripts. Many of us do. But we don't lie about it. And we don't consider it "unjust".

The reason you report them is that it is not up to you (who has a vested interest) to determine whether or not they are relevant. Everyone who has F's has a story why they got it. It's up to the adcoms to read you personal statement and interview you to determine whether or not they think your explanation cuts it.
I can live with that, with my integrity being stronger than ever. AMCAS or any medical board won't teach me the meaning of intgerity and charachter. I live those values everyday.
Dude, you're talking about lying and cheating to get in to med schools. Be very careful. Integrity and values should not have sunk so low by the time you're 23. Most people don't completely sell out until their 40's...

Honest piece of advice, OP- Don't run your moral relativism and victimization by fellow premeds. Run it by folks who are the age of the people who will be your adcom. I think you'll find that people in their 40's/50's will find your explanation very weak and demonstrative of questionable values.

You're probably a better man than this. Follow the rules, tell the truth and take your lumps.
 
That said, I understand why some(well, most of you) of you vehemently object to what you perceive as 'lying/fraud/illegal' and what I view as circumventing an unfair obstruction.

Don't delude yourself:

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." — William Shakespeare

Are you sure you want to be a doctor? I think you might have missed your calling as a politician. Your ability to doublespeak is amazing. :smuggrin:
 
Question: Let's assume I went through with this and didn't mention my CC grades when applying. Let's also assume I get into a US medical school. Somewhere along the line(in school, residency, post-residency), if it does come out to the various boss-men that I did not report those grades, how can you be so sure that it will result in automatic dismissal or getting my license pulled? If a cadaver-debasing(cut off its hand, gave it to a stripper) resident can continue to a practice(sent to a different program) or a patient abusing doc still retains his doctorhood priviledges(just has to go to counseling, yeah I know it's ridiculous), why would I be hit with a iron fist ? Is it speculation or do you know actual cases where people were barred from practicing because they didn't mention CC grades they took when they were 17 years old ?

I haven't read all of the responses to this thread, so please forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said. What would make your omitting of your CC grades such an egregious offense is that it is SERIOUS academic dishonesty and medical schools are academic institutions. Your intellect and academic history are the currency that count the most at schools. If you are willing to lie to med schools (through omission) about such a large part of your academic history then you are not the applicant that the med school thought they had let in and it shows that you are academically dishonest. If you are willing to do something so dishonest, the med school must assume that you'd be willing to do it again (maybe in the form of cheating on tests, etc.) This is not to mention the fact that they would have let you in over another qualified applicant who probably didn't lie. I go to a med school that has an honor code, which means that we're not watched like hawks during tests and that if someone misses a test for whatever reason, we are trusted not to talk about the test until they have taken it. So much of academics (and medicine) is based on trust. How can the med school assume that you won't lie about a procedure you performed on a patient or about data you collected while you were doing research, etc.?

I actually do remember a case from a few years ago of a famous physicist being stripped of his PhD by the institution where he earned his doctorate because he lied about data in research he conducted AFTER he had finished his PhD program (even though there was NO indication he had done anything dishonest during his PhD). Committing academic dishonesty (and then even worse, lying about it) casts doubt on everything you have ever done academically. That is why being cited by an undergrad for academic dishonesty is pretty much a kiss of death for any grad school application.

So, yeah, you can lie. Maybe you'll even get in. If your med school finds out, though, don't be surprised if they do kick you out of med school or (if it's after you graduate) retroactively strip you of your MD.

I know you think this is an unjust rule, but I disagree. I doubt anyone (except maybe Kant himself) would think lying to save a life was immoral. But lying about an integral part of your med school application because it will make it easier for you to get in (especially over someone else who hasn't lied) is not a committing one small unethical act to correct a greater injustice. It's just plain dishonest. So your options are: lie and maybe get in knowing that what you did to get in was completely wrong and that at any moment your med school could find out and punish you severely for lying or deal with consequences of your actions (which I'm guessing are that it will be impossible for you to get into any allopathic school in the US and almost impossible to get into any osteopathic school). It may be harsh, and it may seem unfair, but that is the way it works in academics and in life.
 
First off, this isn't "red tape" or "circumnavigating bureaucracy". Red tape is your chemistry class not counting because you were in ChemE, and circumnavigating bureaucracy is calling a buddy who is the son of the dean of admissions to put in a good word for you when your app is up for review. It's called deceit.

Convicts who get their records cleared generally do so by years of showing they're good citizens and have changed. You've failed two full years of college, lied about it to your current college, and plan on lying about it to med schools. That doesn't show growth of any sort. It shows that you don't know when you're in over your head and that you're a liar and are taking the easy way out. As many have said, many of us, myself included, have some crappy grades we'd really rather not report. But that's tough, because they're going to get reported. You've decided not to report them, while the rest of us spend time, effort, and money to convince the powers that be that while we have screwed up, we are willing to do our pennance. It's called owning your mistakes.

As for arrogance, reread the previous paragraph. You've failed two years of community college, but just KNOW you're ready to take on everything that's necessary to get into med school. That just seethes arrogance, or ignorance, at best, particularly to a crowd that's been through it.

What really gets me about you is your absolute refusal to take any sort of responsibility for your situation. All these questions you're posting, trying to draw out hypocrisy in others, are really cute, but absolutely irrelevant, because this whole thing is about YOU, not the system, not criminals, not my smoking history. You're simply trying to find some sort of corroboration for something you obviously know is wrong.

It is wrong, it is cheating, it is lying.
 
Sorry to hear about that dude, but I have good news for you, which might sound harsh.

So if after several years, you still have a 0.0 GPA, then you are technically a freshmen by all university standards, regardless of how long you have been in school. This means that you have FOUR brilliant years in front of you. This is the advantage of a 0.0 over a 2.0. Yes, you will be asked about your "ealy college life" in your interviews definitely, but I your can make the best of the years that follow and have medical school think of you as a mature person. Your high school record is pretty good, you can learn, so unless something really bad and presumably explainable happened, you would not have failed all of your classes.

My point is that if you either need to graduate or go to medical school, you will have to repeat the required classes and pass them, there is no way around it. This is actually not bad news, depending on how you look at it. If your GPA is still not satisfactory after that time, then you can consider a Masters Degree to show Medical Schools that you can do higher level work. But before you start anything, I want you to take a moment first and examine why really your college years went the way they went. Then, I want you to start thinking of a concrete plan of how you will fix that and how you will stick to your plan. This is the only way to ensure continuing success. I wish you the best.
 
People in this thread keep hammering in the moral issues they have with ommitting CC grades. Gametime, it sounds like you are willing to live with this, so i think that everyone should just let Gametime deal with the consequences himself. He obviously won't change.

As far as community college grades coming back to haunt you, they will. I was applying for post bac programs this year and forgot that I had taken a summer community college class right after high school. I had received an A, so of course I wouldn't have omitted that on purpose! Anyways, I received calls from all but one of the schools I applied to saying that my records show I took a class in 2000 at El Paso Community college and that I needed to send in those transcripts before my application could be reviewed. I have a feeling that medical schools will be just as scrupulous if not more so than these post bac programs. I have no doubts that you will receive the same phone calls as me from schools asking for your complete transcripts.
 
People in this thread keep hammering in the moral issues they have with ommitting CC grades. Gametime, it sounds like you are willing to live with this, so i think that everyone should just let Gametime deal with the consequences himself. He obviously won't change.

Good point. No use in wasting our breaths; the ball rests squarely in his court.

Gametime, I hope you find the wisdom you need to make it to where you want to go. You have not been open to learning with friendly feedback thus far, so varying levels of unfriendliness are sure to follow.
 
There are two concepts you are talking about in your illustration with criminals. Justice and mercy. The criminal who recieves parole for good behavior or has their record expunged is not recieving justice (paying for their crimes) but are rather recieving mercy (a second chance). Mercy must be given, it can not be demanded or taken. There are many non traditionals who are pleading for mercy. They have a frustrated past and are requesting a second chance. Of course they are doing everything they can to prove they will not squander their second chance.
What you are proposing is not comparable to the criminal who recieved mercy. What you are proposing is more like a prison break (or maybe more aptly you are determined to destroy all evidence of your crime). You do not believe you deserve to pay for your previous actions and so you are going to do whatever you can to avoid justice.
I don't think criminals who try to break out of prison are likely to get parole or their record expunged. Similarly, if you decide to try to avoid justice in the way you propose, you may jeapordize your chance at mercy down the road.
 
Gametime, you are a liar and a cheater. Your attempts at justification are laughable. Lying to save your dying mother? You're talking about lying to save your own *ss. What is so unfair about a system that holds you accountable for your past actions? What is so unfair about a system that expects you to behave with integrity and honesty? You sound like an annoying, whining baby. Your complete lack of integrity and honesty would be a disgrace to the medical profession. However, your academic track record thus far suggests you lack the ability to succeed even at the undergrad level (don't bother with your lame excuses -- you're not the only one who faced challenges, and your record speaks for itself), so despite all your lying and cheating you are unlikely to make it as far as the application process anyway. For this, I am grateful, because no one in this profession wants liars and cheaters for colleagues. Perhaps your 'talents' would be better suited to used car sales.
 
From what you have revealed on this thread, the following question would have served you (and the rest of us) much better than what you had originally posted:

Q: Hey SDN-ers, what are the practical (not moral, not ethical) consequences (short- and long-term) of not reporting coursework attempted at a community college, prior to matriculation into a 4-year university program, and not included in the 4-year university record, when applying to medical school. *** Please do not give me your opinions of whether this is right or wrong. I repeat, do NOT give me opinions about the ethical or moral merits or deficiencies of this course of action!


Let me take one last crack at this issue before moving on to other questions I have.

Why? You have made it quite clear to us that your stance is righteous. So, why do you want to convince us, the silly old folks suffering from “high-horse-itis”? You already know you are right... ;)

The United States of America is willing (or all too willing, depending on your point of view) to give redemption to Mafia hit men (via their Witness Protection Program), run of the mill murderers, rapists, corrupt politicians, incorrigibly wicked foreign dictators, embezzlers, robbers, welfare cheats, and boatloads of other criminals . . . but not a young person who was caught up in life-threatening circumstances that were outside his control ? And that should forever preclude said young student from attending an American medical school? It doesn't seem fair. Correction: It's fundamentally flawed, is what it is.

An individual, an educational institution, a government (among other entities) all have vastly different responsibilities, have distinct reasons for being, and are expected to adhere to markedly different codes of conduct. These issues have been explored in depth by people far wiser than I (and may I humbly suggest, even you), ranging from Confucius, Plato, Aristotle to Hobbes, Locke, Hume, to Thomas Paine, Karl Marx and many others. I humbly posit that an exploration of political philosophy may prove to be quite enlightening, if you are willing to entertain the possibility that you are not always correct.

I heard about a clergyman who admitted to having an affair with a boy many years ago. He was forgiven by his superiors, members of his church, and — strangely — even the local prosecutor. Hence, it's possible to rape a child and get off scot-free without suffering any consequence more serious than publicly apologizing for that transgression. But it is evidently taboo for a reformed student to obtain a fresh start?

This line of reasoning is sophomoric and is based on a logical fallacy.

I don't think it is criminal or unethical to want a fresh start academically. Others may disagree, but I'd love to hear them explain exactly why someone in my shoes does not deserve to start over. Medical school applicants frequently repeat the MCAT exam. I've never heard of an admissions committee member discount a MCAT score because it belonged to someone who retook that exam. If it's kosher to retake the MCAT, why can't you retake a class without incurring a perpetual black mark on your record? "Because the powers-that-be said so" Sorry, that's not a good enough reason for me.

First, as QofQuimica already pointed out, the MCAT does not go away, ever. There is a magical word "deserve" in the question you posed above. This word presupposes a certain degree of entitlement, which is largely unsubstantiated. Despite the fact that circumstances beyond your control sabotaged your academic performance in the past (I have previously detailed that you are not the only one), your academic record was and remains your responsibility. Lest you feel unduly criticized, I will demonstrate my point on my own case. Circumstances beyond my control devastated my academic record as well, and a large degree of raw, human sympathy can certainly be allowed for my circumstances. However, no one was forcing me to continue to sign up for classes. I did not wake up one morning in late May and suddenly realize that I had "spectacularly bombed" an entire academic year. I was the one who had stopped attending classes, stopped hearing what the professors said even when I was there, stopped turning in homework, stopped writing meaningful responses to exam questions. It was my responsibility to realize that this was a problem. I was the one living my life... as unlivable as it seemed at the time, I was living it and I had yet to learn how to live it with more courage, more responsibility, more wisdom. In fact, I am still learning all those things and so much more... and from where I stand now, I can plainly see that this is the one “class” I will never complete.

In response to your question of why someone does not "deserve" to have a clean slate, I will humbly posit that one can only "deserve" opportunities based on what he/she has done, not on what life/the world/others have done to him/her.

The difficulty arises when you lie about something in order to circumvent admissions committees from discovering your initial college failures. That lie becomes the basis of the percieved moral transgression. Which, of course, takes us to those age-old ethics problems: Would you lie to save a life ? If you had the chance to amend(falsify, whatever) the organ donation list so that your ailing, dying mother would be first in line for the donor's liver rather than #234, would you do it ?

Some people would have you believe that: Nope, Sorry Mom, rules are rules. I would suffer from a condition called 'lack of integrity' if I went ahead and saved your life. G' Luck in Heaven.

You have swiftly arrived at the slippery slope. In my very subjective, very biased, very personal opinion, a person who rationalizes as you have above should have no place in medicine. If you are willing to put your mother (as dear as she may be to you) above 233 other people who are someone else's much loved parent, child, spouse, sibling, simply and only because you (unlike others) are in a position to do so, there is a chance that you may be fundamentally incapable of practicing medicine in a manner consistent with the basic tenets of the profession (please see http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/2498.html for further information).

Like I said earlier with all due respect: Give me a break of some common sense. The level of high-horse-itis in some( only 1 or 2) posts is stupefying. Now, I'm not equating my case to that of a dying mom, not at all, just showing you that it's not as black-and-white'ish as you'd like to see it. The sense I'm getting from some posts is: "We've also overcame tough hardships, put in our time and never challenged the rules, how dare this young upstart jump ahead without putting in his time, how dare he challenge the rules that throwed us off schedule but which we accepted ?"

Nothing in this thread was quite as stupefying as the elliptical arguments and logical fallacies, which you have attempted to push down our throats. This applies to the rest of your post, which I will stop quoting. As a final thought, neither moral relativism nor egoism are novel concepts, and as strange and nonsensical as it may appear to you, neither have been adopted as fundamental elements of medical practice. ;)
 
Thanks Stool Piegon for your kind and gracious remarks. I don't know how old you are, but I sense way too much bitterness. Do you feel better now that you've let all that negativity out ? Only those with full-blown inferiority complex gain satisfaction from tearing others down

Now I could trade you insult for insult, perhaps even ask whether you've ever tasted success(only logical explanation for your bitterness), but I'm tryna provide some structure to this thread, maybe even other non-traders could learn from it.

A piece of advice: Be as brave as you want on the Internet, but I hope you do know that when you call a person a liar and a cheat to his face in the real world(even when deserved), you most likely will visit a maxillofacial surgeon(if the offending party is a male, that is). Not something I would advise.

Everybody else thanks for all your feedback. Kinda funny that after close to 100 posts, nobodys touching the cadaver-debasing resident example with a 10 foot pole. I wonder why :smuggrin:

Thanks again and keep the advice and comments coming. :)
 
Everybody else thanks for all your feedback. Kinda funny that after close to 100 posts, nobodys touching the cadaver-debasing resident example with a 10 foot pole. I wonder why :smuggrin:

Thanks again and keep the advice and comments coming. :)

Hmmm, don't know what to say about it except what he did was wrong. No one has said anything else. He was given mercy for what he did. I would say that mercy is never "deserved" but is rather given as a gift and thus we can't say because he recieved mercy therefore you should.... but as brought up previously, your not requesting mercy, your trying to avoid punishment
 
Thanks Stool Piegon for your kind and gracious remarks. I don't know how old you are, but I sense way too much bitterness. Do you feel better now that you've let all that negativity out ? Only those with full-blown inferiority complex gain satisfaction from tearing others down

Now I could trade you insult for insult, perhaps even ask whether you've ever tasted success(only logical explanation for your bitterness), but I'm tryna provide some structure to this thread, maybe even other non-traders could learn from it.

A piece of advice: Be as brave as you want on the Internet, but I hope you do know that when you call a person a liar and a cheat to his face in the real world(even when deserved), you most likely will visit a maxillofacial surgeon(if the offending party is a male, that is). Not something I would advise.

Tired Pigeon is just calling it as he sees it. If what he is saying has no merit, why would anyone be offended? I've been called some precious things in my life, but I rarely took them to heart. Words are nothing more than puffs of air and vibration. Make of them what you will. I prefer to actually listen to feedback from those who are smarter, and perhaps wiser, than myself, rather than taking offense to it. But that's me. You seem clouded by your sense of entitlement.

Let us not mince words: happy, successful people take responsibility for their integrity problems, particularly when confronted. That is all.

Everybody else thanks for all your feedback. Kinda funny that after close to 100 posts, nobodys touching the cadaver-debasing resident example with a 10 foot pole. I wonder why :smuggrin:

Thanks again and keep the advice and comments coming. :)

You are an attention-seeker. I think you might be getting off on this somehow. I am quickly losing interest in your fallacies. The reason no one has brought up the the example in which you provided about the cadaver-debasing resident is that it has no bearing in your situation and that the case is clearly one where the individual committed an act that was wrong (as stated in the prior post). However, you do not right a wrong by also being wrong. Just because incidents of integrity-lack have been swept under the carpet in the past doesn't provide justification for your lack of integrity.
 
Whether you think its fair or not is beside the point. Most medical schools do a background check after acceptance and before matriculation.

Depending on the school and the depth of the background check they will likely find that you had attended a community college (your social security number and name are associated with your attendance there), also if you submitted a FAFSA and got any government finanical aid they will DEFINITELY find out you went there.

And there you have it. They slammed the door before you ever walked into a classroom. Don't worry about comparing it to doctors who do ****ty things and don't lose their license. The probability of the school finding out before you ever start is high, and then they're going to retract your acceptance. Period. You showed lack of integrity before even starting at their school and they have a line full of honest waitlisters just dying to get in.

If you lie, you will have your acceptance revoked. Period.
 
Spiced, I don't think it's too much to ask for civility when discussing issues, no matter how complicated. I don't need anybody on the Internet(or the real world for that matter)'s attention(or lackthereof) or opinion to validate me and my life. What I'm doing know is called weighing your alternatives before making a decision. You can call it as you see it bluntly( I respect that) but with a sense of purpose. Most people here are doing a great joba(and I thank them) in stating their opinions without injecting their frustrations or using this thread as a venting arena. Stoolie needs to follow their example. Constructive criticism, ladies and gents. Let's all be cool. Strike the cool pose everybody :cool: :D .

ExtremeUnderDog, Thanks, I should've articulated my question better and narrowed it down to avoid what happened. I'll use your question format. btw, I like the way you dissected my post, philosophy major ? Only problem, you misunderstood most of it. Allow me to clarify: Ahem, I AM NOT EQUATING MY CASE TO A DYING MOTHER. NOR AM I SUGGESTING THAT ONE SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT AMEND A ORGAN DONATION LIST. I AM SIMPLE PROVINDING AN EXAMPLE TO SHOW THE GRAYER AREAS OF LIFE AND NOT THE BLACK_AND_WHITE VERSION SOME INSIST ON. I think I'll stick to clear unambigious prose from here on out. Onto the Q

Q: Hey SDN-ers, what are the practical (not moral, not ethical) consequences (short- and long-term) of not reporting coursework attempted at a community college, prior to matriculation into a 4-year university program, and not included in the 4-year university record, when applying to medical school. *** Please do not give me your opinions of whether this is right or wrong. I repeat, do NOT give me opinions about the ethical or moral merits or deficiencies of this course of action!

Specifically,

1- Is it a fact that one will get his medical license pulled and/or get kicked out of medical school if somewhere along the line(during med school, residency, post-residency), it is found out that he didn't report his community college grades ?

2) Is there a dominoe effect ? Will one be blacklisted from all higher-education institutions ?

3) Is there an appeals process ? or is it a case of one reporting grades error and you're gone for good.

Thanks again all.
 
Q: Hey SDN-ers, what are the practical (not moral, not ethical) consequences (short- and long-term) of not reporting coursework attempted at a community college, prior to matriculation into a 4-year university program, and not included in the 4-year university record, when applying to medical school. *** Please do not give me your opinions of whether this is right or wrong. I repeat, do NOT give me opinions about the ethical or moral merits or deficiencies of this course of action!

Specifically,

1- Is it a fact that one will get his medical license pulled and/or get kicked out of medical school if somewhere along the line(during med school, residency, post-residency), it is found out that he didn't report his community college grades ?

2) Is there a dominoe effect ? Will one be blacklisted from all higher-education institutions ?

3) Is there an appeals process ? or is it a case of one reporting grades error and you're gone for good.

Thanks again all.

We do not know what can happen. Assuming you do not get caught immediately, there is a likihood that it will come up in the future. It's a well-known fact that doctors get sued. Lawyers like to look for areas that can help them win their case. Given that academic records are increasingly available, you stand a substantial risk of legal action. Whether this would result in the loss of your license is up to the legal entities to decide. However, it stands to reason that one should not place themselves in an unnecessary situation of risk.

I have heard that there is a black list. Academic institutions do correspond with one another given sufficient reason. I have no proof. However, keep in mind that it is a violation of the agreement in which you make with AMCAS and AAMC to omit a transcript. Since they are responsible for your primary application to just about all the US allopathic medical school, you are screwed if they investigate and find out. Just read their section on not providing all the transcripts or listing all coursework. All the schools will find out, if AAMC finds out.

You can probably appeal at several levels. However, why go that far? I would simply own up to it right now with the university and make it right. Then deal with where you are at this point in time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top