Can Carib. MD with a High USMLE and GPA Match in Plastics?

[BMW2009FL]

I graduated from Georgetown with a 3.5 gpa, I have two publications, MCAT 22m, 29m (12,4,13) messed up on verbal, and I played football in college. I applied to us md schools twice and was waitlisted this year at Georgetown and UCF and I only got into SGU.

I am really set on getting into a surgical residency and I realize that US IMGs do not MATCH in these competitive specialties as well as US MDs do. I really don't want to waste a lot more time and money trying to get into a US MD school and I don't know why I didn't get more interviews at US MDs with my stats.

My question is: If I go to SGU and have close to striaght As and do very well on the usmle, is it likely that I will be able to get into a surgical residency or will my degree from SGU disqualify me from even being considered?

I would really appreciate anyones incite

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[Tigerz_Fan]

I graduated from Georgetown with a 3.5 gpa, I have two publications, MCAT 22m, 29m (12,4,13) messed up on verbal, and I played football in college. I applied to us md schools twice and was waitlisted this year at Georgetown and UCF and I only got into SGU.

I am really set on getting into a surgical residency and I realize that US IMGs do not MATCH in these competitive specialties as well as US MDs do. I really don't want to waste a lot more time and money trying to get into a US MD school and I don't know why I didn't get more interviews at US MDs with my stats.

My question is: If I go to SGU and have close to striaght As and do very well on the usmle, is it likely that I will be able to get into a surgical residency or will my degree from SGU disqualify me from even being considered?

I would really appreciate anyones incite

Plastics? Even if you got into GS, it is highly unlikely you would get plastics.

Retake the MCAT, reapply next year and include DO schools. I have seen a DO plastics resident/fellow out there once and awhile.

 

[dragonfly99]

Very unwise to go to the Caribbean if you want to do plastic surgery. One reason that you didn't get more interviews would be that your verbal score on the MCAT was atrocious. On the other hand, your scores on the other sections were quite good and your college GPA is all right...a bit low for a med school applicant but it's from a well known school, which should help you. You would be much, much better served to improve your verbal MCAT score, beef up your volunteer work/clinical experience as much as you can, and then reapply to US schools. yes, it would entail waiting another year or two to go to school, but it would definitely be worth it for one who wants to do plastic surgery, or probably any type of surgical residency. Those are hard to get...even general surgery is not too easy, and not easy at all for a foreign trained doc.

The fact that you even managed to get interviews, and got wait listed at 2 US schools, in spite of the 4 on the MCAT and the somewhat low GPA shows that the adcoms saw some things in the rest of your application that they liked. I think you should get whatever tutoring/Princeton Review/Kaplan, etc. that you need in order to fix the MCAT score. It also wouldn't hurt to pick up a class or two (say one per semester) that you can take and ace, in order to pull up the GPA as much as you can, and/or show continued academic progress. Fix the academic stuff and I think you'd have a good shot at a US school, which would make it about 500% easier to get a plastics residency than if you go to any Caribbean school. There are just so few plastics spots, even US grads from the well known med schools sweat bullets about getting into a residency ANYWHERE, and there are many qualified med school grads, with good grades, from US schools who don't get in every year. In your situation I'd say it's not going to be wise for you to bail in favor of the Caribbean, especially if you're still in your 20's.

 

[RussianJoo]

yeah go to a DO school even gen surgery might be next to imposible in 4 years when it's time for you to apply for the match. then again it might be very easy depending on what Maobama does with health care. DO is a much safer bet than SGU.

 

[BMW2009FL]

yeah go to a DO school even gen surgery might be next to imposible in 4 years when it's time for you to apply for the match. then again it might be very easy depending on what Maobama does with health care. DO is a much safer bet than SGU.

Thanks for everyones input, I really appreciate it. Trying to get into gen surg is easier being a DO than from SGU? I thought that it was much harder for DOs to get into surgical res. than it is for MDs even if they are from SGU? I see many students on SGUs match list that got into gen surg?

CONSIDER this ok? Dr. Wittenborn is a young plastic surgeon in southwest FL who graduated from SGU. He is also the Cheif plastic surgeon at all of the four main hospitals in Fort Myers FL. Are you saying that it is unlikely that I will be able to accomplish this from SGU as well? But if I have a high GPA from SGU and I do well on the USMLE will it make that big of a difference where I go to school DO or SGU? Isn't the USMLE more based on Science, so the fact that I got a 12 and a 13 in the science parts of the MCAT mean that I will do well on the USMLE, thus no need to worry about my MCAT score ?

here is that drs website with his info
http://www.wittenbornmd.com/

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Definitely follow the advice of Dragonfly.

Let's put it this way. Until you mentioned that guy's name, I had never heard of a plastic surgeon/Carib grad. So, just because there now is one, does not mean it will be easy for others.

 

[RussianJoo]

Thanks for everyones input, I really appreciate it. Trying to get into gen surg is easier being a DO than from SGU? I thought that it was much harder for DOs to get into surgical res. than it is for MDs even if they are from SGU? I see many students on SGUs match list that got into gen surg?

CONSIDER this ok? Dr. Wittenborn is a young plastic surgeon in southwest FL who graduated from SGU. He is also the Cheif plastic surgeon at all of the four main hospitals in Fort Myers FL. Are you saying that it is unlikely that I will be able to accomplish this from SGU as well? But if I have a high GPA from SGU and I do well on the USMLE will it make that big of a difference where I go to school DO or SGU? Isn't the USMLE more based on Science, so the fact that I got a 12 and a 13 in the science parts of the MCAT mean that I will do well on the USMLE, thus no need to worry about my MCAT score ?

here is that drs website with his info
http://www.wittenbornmd.com/

when you look at the match look at the pgy2 residencies not pgy1, those are preliminary residencies and are very easy to get and don't allow you to be a licensed gen surg. I don't think too many people matched into a categorical gen surg. residency this year. also compare and see how many people matched from sgu say like 3 or 5 years ago.. i would bet that many more matched then than now, and I would bet even less will match this year. US schools are producing more grads. DOs have their own residencies and are considered US grads so it's much easier for them to get any residency by far when compared to SGU students. I too thought that DOs were mostly primary care docs but that was my mistake and a huge one at that. DOs can be whatever doc they want to be, i know of DOs that are ENT's, Neurosurgeons, Gen Surgeons, Anesthesiologists, any thing and everything.

This guy that you mentioned first of all is only 1 dude out of at least 6,000 that graduated from SGU. Don't get me wrong lots of good successful doctors graduated from SGU, however that was the past. If you look at the charting out comes of the NRMP (posted every couple of years) you'll see that in 2009 was the most applicants for matches in the history of the Match.. this will continue to increase every year. with larger numbers of US grads each year there are less and less spots left over for IMGs/FMGs and those are the spots that we get, very very rarely will a program director pick a foreign grad over a US grad, that's just a fact, no matter how much better that foreign grad is, I have heard plenty of program directors say that to me. So today i bet this dude would not be able to accomplish what he accomplished over 15 or 20 years ago, when it was much much easier for IMGs to match into gen surg, cause there were a lot less US grads and about the same number of residencies. This dude only looks young on his pic because that's what plastic surgeons have to look like young and beautiful, but he's at least in his 40's or 50's. Also this guy couldn't get into a plastic fellowship right away and had to do a hand fellowship first to build up his CV so that he could get into a plastics fellowship.

My point is that there's less and less opportunity for IMGs/FMGs because of increased numbers of US grads and right now it looks it's only going to get harder for us to match, however, no one knows what the future holds, for all we know Obama will get his socialized health care bill passed and doc will be making $100K a year or less like other government employees, and no one will want to go into medicine thus residencies will have no choice but accept IMGs however, I don't think that's a likely scenario. Right now I wouldn't advise anyone to go to a carib school if they can easily get into a DO school, and I myself wouldn't go there. things are just way too unstable for foreign grads right now.

ohh and if you don't believe me all the numbers are available online, you can see how many people applied to gen surgery residencies vs. how many residencies were available, you'll also see how many US grads vs. IMGs were accepted and what the average board scores were, you'll see a trend of increasing numbers of US grads applying and an increasing number of foreign grads not matching and increasing board averages.

 

[Ariee]

The answer to your question, strictly is yes, anything is possible. One of my relatives is a PRS. He did 5 yrs of GS then 2 yrs of fellowship. He outdid his US counterpart on their inservice exams.

Will it be easy, No.

As an American, your chances of getting into medical school is much higher in Canada. Many Carib students (I believe 55%) are CDN. Canada has 10 english speaking schools and the admission rate is something like 1/100 when I was applying. I had excellent MCAT's, leadership up the wazoo, research, etc. I didn't know what to do to pull up my application, I was a die-hard, I have to be a doctor and I applied to 1 Carib school and got in. I did not have the resources to go to an American school back then (at least I thought). I should have applied to the American schools before the Caribs. You need to understand this dynamic and why so many go to the Carib. Many are CDNS. Also Canada has the reverse system than America. My CDN counterparts matched into Ortho Surgery and Uro in Canada this year. In Canada IM is the most COMPETETIVE to get into. They make a lot of money there and the specialties are easier to get. McMaster has always taken one Ortho applicant from my school for the last 3 years in a row. I can't believe you got waitlisted at GeorgeW and UCSF with those stats. I should have really applied to the American system...In Canada, I don't think you'd even make the 50% cut first-time cut.

You need to do your research. If you chose to go to the Carib, don't go to any other school than the following 1. SGU 2. Ross 3. Saba 4. AUC. SGU and Ross have a longer reputation and my good friend this year who went on interviews had a PD tell him: "We love Ross grads". Another PD sent an e-mail to Saba stating: "We need a PGY1, we've had great experience with your school. Please send us a grad. " It wasn't MGH, Cornell or whatever, but it was still a spot.

I guess I don't need to mention the stigma against the Caribs. The previous posts should be a good example. The facts are in the NRMP match results. ~25,000 spots for roughly ~15,000 AMG's. There is an excess of ~10,000 spots.

Also, the USMLE I thought was just like the MCAT with no verbal. I aced all these exams. USMLE 1 & 2, MCAT. I went to a Carib school and at the end of the day, I'm still going to be treating patients.

You need to look at yourself and your priorities. Why is it so impt to be a PRS, will you die if you don't? It's gonna be hard, are you up for the challenge if you go to the Carib. Even in the US, there are less than 80 residency programs, it will still be a challenge.

In conclusion: Apply to the US schools first, then Carib MD, then US DO. I only say this b/c DO's seem to have a difficult path and I'd rather have the MD behind my name and am not into the holistic stuff...

G'luck

 

[schandan13]

Brilliant reply Ariee. Thanks !

 

[Taurus]

I wouldn't go Carib betting on getting into plastics. Sarah Palin has better odds of becoming president.

 

[Cougartime]

Thanks for everyones input, I really appreciate it. Trying to get into gen surg is easier being a DO than from SGU? I thought that it was much harder for DOs to get into surgical res. than it is for MDs even if they are from SGU? I see many students on SGUs match list that got into gen surg?

CONSIDER this ok? Dr. Wittenborn is a young plastic surgeon in southwest FL who graduated from SGU. He is also the Cheif plastic surgeon at all of the four main hospitals in Fort Myers FL. Are you saying that it is unlikely that I will be able to accomplish this from SGU as well? But if I have a high GPA from SGU and I do well on the USMLE will it make that big of a difference where I go to school DO or SGU? Isn't the USMLE more based on Science, so the fact that I got a 12 and a 13 in the science parts of the MCAT mean that I will do well on the USMLE, thus no need to worry about my MCAT score ?

here is that drs website with his info
http://www.wittenbornmd.com/

My friend (many years ago) went to medical school in Italy and is now a practicing, successful plastic surgeon - what has changed and why would a medical school in Italy (him being a FMG) be different than going to SGU?

 

[RussianJoo]

My friend (many years ago) went to medical school in Italy and is now a practicing, successful plastic surgeon - what has changed and why would a medical school in Italy (him being a FMG) be different than going to SGU?

competitiveness changed, back then the average USMLE scores were much lower and what today seem to be average board scores were awesome scores back then. also the number of applicants and US graduates has changed significantly. there were more residencies available when compared to the number of grads back then than there are today. two very important and huge things.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

The odds are extremely slim. Plastics, either direct match or fellowship route, is ultra competitive and most American grads can't match into plastics. That being said, I would never say never, but the person required would need amazing research, board scores, residency evals/in service scores. Or if they have a connection, well all things can be forgotten I guess.

That being said, I find it pretty ridiculous that a Caribbean med student be going for plastics. If you couldn't get into an American med school to start with why should you have any chance at the most competitive specialty available?

I do not like this statement.

I stand by what I said before and what everyone else said before. That his best chances of matching to plastics would be a US MD route. However, just because a student does not do well in undergrad for whatever reason, it does not mean that he will totally bomb med school. Many times, undergrad grades and med school grades do not reflect each other. There have been many success stories of 99/99 USMLE steps and even people matching into competitive residencies. Unfortunately, that does not include plastics.

As an SDN mentor like your title states, I would expect a more mature response from you.

 

[Pghboy18]

I graduated from Georgetown with a 3.5 gpa, I have two publications, MCAT 22m, 29m (12,4,13) messed up on verbal, and I played football in college. I applied to us md schools twice and was waitlisted this year at Georgetown and UCF and I only got into SGU.

I am really set on getting into a surgical residency and I realize that US IMGs do not MATCH in these competitive specialties as well as US MDs do. I really don't want to waste a lot more time and money trying to get into a US MD school and I don't know why I didn't get more interviews at US MDs with my stats.

My question is: If I go to SGU and have close to striaght As and do very well on the usmle, is it likely that I will be able to get into a surgical residency or will my degree from SGU disqualify me from even being considered?

I would really appreciate anyones incite

you must be literate to have scored a 12 and 13 on the two science sections of the MCAT. This means that you can absolutely manage much better than a 4 on the verbal. Take a year off, take the test again, reapply, and render this question irrelevant.

If worse comes to worse, I'd say DO before you ever consider carib for reasons that are plastered all over these forums in threads like this one. (ie. DOs have their own residencies, don't have to live in a 3rd world country, etc)

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

I don't think there was any lack of maturity in my statement, simply a stating of my opinion which I have made clear repeatedly. If you go to a Caribbean med school for whatever reason, poor undergrad grades/poor test scores/etc., when it comes to residency selection you are viewed as 2nd tier citizen. That being said, when it comes to a specialty that is unattainable for > 90% of AMG's why should a caribbean student have access to it at all? I am in the camp that all AMG's should be given selection of residencies as graduates of the nation's medical schools. All spots unfilled after an AMG match and scramble would then be available for IMG/FMG's to fill.

The first statement is a much better way to say how you feel.

However, if you are in the camp that AMG's get first dibs on residency slots, what are you doing in the Carib forum? I see a statement like that, and by all appearances, it only seems that you are here to start trouble. So, if that is how you really feel, I suggest that you go back to where you came from before you start a war. By saying this, you have made it obvious you have a problem with Carib grads. Interesting that you are a SDN mentor, such a bad attitude to pass on to others.

 

[Ariee]

Hey wagy,

"I am in the camp that all AMG's should be given selection of residencies as graduates of the nation's medical schools. All spots unfilled after an AMG match and scramble would then be available for IMG/FMG's to fill."

I agree with you in some regard. However if this was the case then I would have never gone to the Carib. Also the ECFMG and the AAMC are working on making the match process more friendly and trying to eliminate discrimination of the USIMG/FMG in the match process. I don't think the your proposal will ever happen. Now don't get me wrong, if I was a PD and an AMG and USIMG had the same stats/research/etc, I'd take the USIMG, even if the AMG's stats were a little poorer, I'd probably still give him preference, this is his country, he should serve it.

IMHO, I don't think the USA should match individuals that are not US citizens/green-card holders/CDN citizens. The green-card holder's can be foreign born, but I'm presuming that they will be in the US long enough to know how to communicate English effectively and have assimilated to the American culture. Assimilation of culture is important in regards to treating the American patient. With the economic crisis, IMHO, we don't need to be supporting J1 & H1 visa's. That money should be put into increasing the # of medical schools and seats.

Also if this match proposal that you put forward were the case, perhaps Canadian and in your case American schools would increase their seats and ppl would never have to go to the Carib anyways. On the other hand, you'd have a lot of foreign born doctors in American and perhaps the # of spots in medical schools in our nations (CDN & US) wouldn't increase.

I am a firm believer that US IMG's (Carib) are a strong part of the work-force. The ones I know work quite hard and are some of the best teachers. I think this roots from the fact that b/c there has been more hurdles to get through, the USIMG tries very hard to prove themselves and make themselves an equal amongst their colleagues. They are often more friendlier and patient in the work force. This is not to say that AMG's are not, I know they are. My point is only to let you know what another on this side's perspective is. As a physician, I know you'll be open to learning from another.

Wagy, there are doctors that are poorly and well qualified in both the USIMG and AMG group. The recent BU med student/ craig-list killer would be an example, that there are mistakes made in the admission process to the US med-schools. Not to mention some of the other AMG physicians that have been charged with sexual assault of their patients.

What I find the most surprising is that Carib grads go to med-school interested in the specialities. This reflects poorly on their research capabilities. I went in wanting to be a PCP. There are ~25,000 spots for ~15,000AMG's, the USIMG is needed and we're here to help. I wonder how many more NP's/PA's there would be without us?

I hope this helped, who else would like to put forward models to make the match more effective and the system better?

Ariee

P.S. The USIMG should not be viewed as a threat. With all due respect that is what your model is kind of suggesting Wagy...

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Excellent post Ariee...

 

[Ariee]

Why thank you Tigerz_Fan...

 

[Ariee]

Wagy,

Your premise makes no sense. You have nothing to base your argument off of. It just sounds like you strongly dislike IMG/FMG and are extremely worried/threatened about these individuals taking away match spots. For a physician you have a blind leading blind complex, this is supported when you state: "I don't think, nor will I ever, that those graduates (IMG/FMG) that are allowed to enter the match system to fill the empty spots not filled by AMG's should be going after specialties/spots where there are more than enough AMG's to fill them." What is this premise supported by? Is it supported by the fact that AMG's did not match this year? I know 2 who didn't. There are reason's for applicants like this and I commend those PD's who did not take these applicants to be physicians at their institutions as they are liabilities. Case in point: BU/Craig-list killer. As a PD, I would not take an AMG who has a Dean's Letter stating that the AMG is a liability when they are off their anti-depressant meds. Another example, would be the IM applicant on the IM forum, who did not have his stuff together and only had 2 LOR's come into ERAS- redflag. I would take a USIMG over these individuals any day. Also 97% od AMG's match, so what is the problem here? The 3% are the ill-suited, so by putting them above the USIMGs to take positions is wrong, because we are allowing liabilities in the field. Can this argument be used for USIMG's? No, it can't because the USIMG has more stringent expectations and checks that they must hurdle than the AMG. I also know an AMG who went for ER last year and didn't get it, he scrambled into FM. This guy also has personality disorders, narcissitic and anti-social. Should we allow, AMG's with personality disorders into residency programs because they are AMG's. Again, NO! This example can also go to show, how there are errors in the medical school admission process, perhaps the USIMG should have had that AMG's spot in medical school. The system is flawed, how will you fix it?

Here is the post I'm referring to by the AMG: http://more.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=648106


Here is how one writes an opinion essay/argument: http://www.writefix.com/argument/

Also, you seem to pass a lot of judgement on individuals level of intelligence and this being represented by their MCAT scores. This can be refuted, since you've written in your other posts that you're a BS/MD student, therefore you've clearly never written the MCAT. To draw on a parallel on the level of non-sense of your agument, one could state that, BS/MD students are not as qualified as MD applicants because the applicant pool: 1) is younger and issues of maturity may arise, 2) has never written the standarized exam to compare them to the rest of the MD's 3) etc, etc. The list of inequalities could go on, my point being, only because BS/MD or USIMG is a different route, it is not correct to impede it.

Wagy, I'm not out to get you. I'm just trying to understand where your opinion comes from. For a Radiation Oncologist Resident at Beaumont, I know you've got some smarts. Can you support your arguments, or are they blind leading blind statements? You are coming off a little-narrow minded. Maybe the radiation is getting to you (lol, j/k, hope that made you smile).


Take it easy y'all, let's put up intelligent well-founded arguments if we're going to debate and discuss what the work-force should be or shouldn't be. Doctor, latin for teacher, let's teach each other. Again, in conclusion, your model Wagy, is a serious problem, IMHO. Think about it, are we going to allow those AMG individuals into the system, when they have a serious problem? I'd rather take the more stringent guidelines for a USIMG. Primum non nocere...

Ariee

P.S. Are you really an SDN mentor? Can I become the International forum mentor?

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

You keep mentioning that I'm a mentor and you expect something different. I mentor in Radiation Oncology; that doesn't mean I am not allowed to have or express strong views I have in other areas.

I keep mentioning that you are a mentor because I do not think a person who mentors anyone in any field should express opinions that present obvious prejudiced against other people.

Ariee, thank you again for your excellent post.

 

[Taurus]

I'm not sure why there is even a debate about this. If you go Carib, you're going to have a more difficult time getting into the residency of your choice. Not saying it's impossible to get into plastics or derm directly if you're FMG, but you pretty much have to be able to walk on water to do so. As the med schools expand (my med school is currently at 167 from 120 when I first went there, top 20 school) and there is no corresponding increase in residency spots, FMG's are going to find it increasingly difficult to match. You can see it in the NRMP numbers. The avg step 1 scores have increased by 3-4 points for such specialties like gas, rads, etc. It will get worse this match cycle. Obama wants to increase spots, but for only primary care ones. So before you go Carib, you should be informed of the facts. If you go Carib, you're most likely going into FM, IM, peds, psych.

 

[Ariee]

Taurus, you're absolutely right, no debate about this here. Again Taurus, you are ABSOLUTELY right!

The topic has been a bit highjacked. The discussion is about wagy27's post, where she proposes a match model where AMG's go through the NRMP first without allowing IMG/FMG's to participate. Then AMG's get to scramble and then IMG/FMG's will participate and pick up the rest. I find that quite faulty, please see my post above.

Thanks Taurus,
A

I'm not sure why there is even a debate about this. If you go Carib, you're going to have a more difficult time getting into the residency of your choice. Not saying it's impossible to get into plastics or derm directly if you're FMG, but you pretty much have to be able to walk on water to do so. As the med schools expand (my med school is currently at 167 from 120 when I first went there, top 20 school) and there is no corresponding increase in residency spots, FMG's are going to find it increasingly difficult to match. You can see it in the NRMP numbers. The avg step 1 scores have increased by 3-4 points for such specialties like gas, rads, etc. It will get worse this match cycle. Obama wants to increase spots, but for only primary care ones. So before you go Carib, you should be informed of the facts. If you go Carib, you're most likely going into FM, IM, peds, psych.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Taurus-I completely agree with you regarding Carib students and the competitive specialties. I didn't agree with Wagy's views regarding the match. However, Ariee stated it perfectly, and I felt no need to repeat.

Wagy-it is very difficult to pull up your GPA. Those who speak of it, have never tried it. And that is something that has been discussed extensively on this forum. For some, it is not the easy way out, it is the only way. We Carib grads are very well aware that AMGs think we took the easy way out. However, because of that stigma, we will work much harder to overcome it.

Be mindful where you express your opinions. I am at a very large university center, and I just love it when my AMG med students/interns/residents start bashing Carib grads (they obviously have no idea where I graduated from). The next statement out of their mouths is usually along the lines of "I had no idea, I thought you were an AMG, you are really good." Funny, I never quite know how to feel, complimented or insulted.

The medical community is very small, and bad attitudes can follow a person a long way.

BTW-thank you for your response about the mentor thing. I must admit I do love the fine print....

 

[dragonfly99]

I'd like to state that having a high MCAT score does not guarantee a high USMLE score. I had a very high MCAT score and I studied hard in 1st/2nd years of med school, and I honestly didn't do so great on the Step 1...a bit above average, but that's about it. Also, there is way, way, way more to getting into a plastics residency than getting a good USMLE score. Way more. Some of the things you'd need to do, like research in surgery, preferably plastic surgery, would be extremely hard to get access to/do at a Caribbean school, simply because those schools aren't going to have plastic surgeons on their faculty, I don't imagine. If they do, these guys aren't likely to have research labs if they ARE on the faculty at these schools. Surgical fields also tend to be small, and the academic docs know each other, and so being from any unknown school, and particularly a Caribbean one, would make it hard. At least if you're at some unknown US school, you would have an easier time arranging to rotate at a school w/ a better known plastic surg. department, or at the least a good chance of matching at SOME categorical general surgery residency, from which you could likely do some sort of later lateral movement into either plastics or reconstructive surgery, assuming that you still wanted to after 5-7 years of getting your a-- kicked in a typical general surgery residency.

I'd also like to point out that a TON of med students change their mind about what specialty they want to do, once they get into 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations. You may not want to base all your decisions at this point on the fact that you currently want to be a plastic surgeon. What sounds good to you now might not in 4-6 years.

Also, I want to suggest that people on here might want to bash the SDN mentors less, if you want to have any. The reason I quit as a mentor was because whenever I said stuff people disagreed with, they started criticizing me and telling me I shouldn't be a mentor, I wasn't fit to be a mentor if I was going to say x, y or z that they disagreed with. Although I don't necessarily agree with wagy, I don't see anything so inflammatory posted by him that it's necessarily objectionable. The reason we have these types of forums is that we want to get different people to give opinons. You can disagree with those and/or choose not to take the advice you get, but I see no point in having a forum like this if people get attacked every time they say something someone disagrees with.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Sorry DF, the argument against Carib grads gets old after awhile.

This is the first time I make comments like this to a mentor. And this will be the first time I disagree with you. If the forums are what you say, then I am entitled to my own opinion as well. Prior experience in the real world and here in the forums has only showed me that comments such as "taking the easy way out" and "match only after AMGs" only starts trouble.

 

[Ariee]

Hi Tigerz, DF,

I agree with both of your posts. Y'all bring up great points. My posts were not meant to be inflammatory at all, but to find out why wagy feels this way. I encouraged him (sorry about the gender confusion wagy) to backup his opinion b/c I found it so odd for Wagy to continually post negative comments on the Carib forum with minimal comments on the Rads Onc forum (I searched his past comments). Wagy, I commend you for backing up your opinions, thank you, although it is evident that Tigerz and I will disagree with you. Also Wagy, you're free to post on this forum as are the rest of us and hope we haven't wandered you away. The world of medicine needs more mentors, however I have to agree with Tigerz that opinions need to be carefully worded with at least a properly written opinion argument (haha, I've got a minor in English).

This turned out to be a really great thread. You have to take away what you've learned. I encourage everyone on here to do this.

Now back to PRS. Let me state again, this is not an easy thing to do and going to a Carib med school you will have Mt. Everest to climb to do this. However, if you are really set on this anything is possible. You will no doubt have to do the 5yr GS and the 3yr PRS fellowship. My relative who was a US IMG did this. During that 5yrs he worked hard, research, got to know the PRS's. THIS IS A HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGLHY UNLIKELY ROUTE, YOUR CHANCES ARE VERY SLIM. You will probably turn out to be an Internist, Peds, Psych, FM doctor- which we need in this country- and isn't that bad-IMO, these should be the more competetive fields, right now, oh well, c'est la vie. At the end of the day, you treat a patient and that should humble you, IMHO, no? There are specialties that I call the untouchables: Derm, Optho, Rad's, PRS, RadOnc (hehehee), but I know ppl from my own school that have gotten into those, THEY ARE THE RARITY.

If this is your 2nd chance to be a doctor, then go. If not, REAPPLY, REAPPLY, REAPPLY, I myself regret going to the Carib after only 1 attempt to apply to 1 medschool in Canada (I was SOOOO silly & stupid, not to mention arrogant, b/c I was so sure I'd get in), I didn't and my arrogance and stupidity has SIGNIFICANTLY died down, I am humble now...anyhow, learn something from everything in life being my point. Learn from me, reapply, learn from Tigerz, he/she went and is a well respected Attdg/Fellow, learn from DF, AMG, had an easier route to residency is a well-respected fellow & will advise you to go to US MD, US DO, then Carib MD... The kind of doctor you become after going to a Carib school depends on you.


Now seriously, can I become the SDN Carib mentor???


G'luck,
A

P.S. Let's keep this forum friendly. Let's show the world that physicians get along with each other. It's not the AMG MD's vs. the IMG MD's or v.v. We are a team, let's use our experiences to advise the pre-meds or discuss the current health-care reform with well-thought out, evidence-based opinions (polls- which isn't a scientific measure and prob has no validity). Let's not get on here and try to be-little each other. If we don't understand each other, let's ask each other to clarify our posts. Don't get defensive or offfensive, we're not a hockey team, we're a medical team

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Hi Tigerz, DF,

I agree with both of your posts. Y'all bring up great points. My posts were not meant to be inflammatory at all, but to find out why wagy feels this way. I encouraged him (sorry about the gender confusion wagy) to backup his opinion b/c I found it so odd for Wagy to continually post negative comments on the Carib forum with minimal comments on the Rads Onc forum (I searched his past comments). Wagy, I commend you for backing up your opinions, thank you, although it is evident that Tigerz and I will disagree with you. Also Wagy, you're free to post on this forum as are the rest of us and hope we haven't wandered you away. The world of medicine needs more mentors, however I have to agree with Tigerz that opinions need to be carefully worded with at least a properly written opinion argument (haha, I've got a minor in English).

This turned out to be a really great thread. You have to take away what you've learned. I encourage everyone on here to do this.

Now back to PRS. Let me state again, this is not an easy thing to do and going to a Carib med school you will have Mt. Everest to climb to do this. However, if you are really set on this anything is possible. You will no doubt have to do the 5yr GS and the 3yr PRS fellowship. My relative who was a US IMG did this. During that 5yrs he worked hard, research, got to know the PRS's. THIS IS A HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGLHY UNLIKELY ROUTE, YOUR CHANCES ARE VERY SLIM. You will probably turn out to be an Internist, Peds, Psych, FM doctor- which we need in this country- and isn't that bad-IMO, these should be the more competetive fields, right now, oh well, c'est la vie. At the end of the day, you treat a patient and that should humble you, IMHO, no? There are specialties that I call the untouchables: Derm, Optho, Rad's, PRS, RadOnc (hehehee), but I know ppl from my own school that have gotten into those, THEY ARE THE RARITY.

If this is your 2nd chance to be a doctor, then go. If not, REAPPLY, REAPPLY, REAPPLY, I myself regret going to the Carib after only 1 attempt to apply to 1 medschool in Canada (I was SOOOO silly & stupid, not to mention arrogant, b/c I was so sure I'd get in), I didn't and my arrogance and stupidity has SIGNIFICANTLY died down, I am humble now...anyhow, learn something from everything in life being my point. Learn from me, reapply, learn from Tigerz, he/she went and is a well respected Attdg/Fellow, learn from DF, AMG, had an easier route to residency is a well-respected fellow & will advise you to go to US MD, US DO, then Carib MD... The kind of doctor you become after going to a Carib school depends on you.


Now seriously, can I become the SDN Carib mentor???


G'luck,
A

P.S. Let's keep this forum friendly. Let's show the world that physicians get along with each other. It's not the AMG MD's vs. the IMG MD's or v.v. We are a team, let's use our experiences to advise the pre-meds or discuss the current health-care reform with well-thought out, evidence-based opinions (polls- which isn't a scientific measure and prob has no validity). Let's not get on here and try to be-little each other. If we don't understand each other, let's ask each other to clarify our posts. Don't get defensive or offfensive, we're not a hockey team, we're a medical team

Once again, Airee, you have said it all. Thank you..........

And here you go: http://www.studentdoctor.net/become-a-mentor/

 

[Ariee]

Thanks Tigerz

 

[pathologic]

I personally know Carib grads that have done derm, rads ect. Gen surg is easy to get into! Your ultimate goal of plastics is attainable either way but it will be much easier coming from a US school.

Who knows, you might decide you don't even want that once you see what it takes to get there. I have a good friend from Caribbean school who played college ball. He's doing PM&R with an emphasis on sports med and pain. $$$$$$$ and loves his work.

 

[dragonfly99]

It is definitely unrealistic to tell someone to go to the Caribbean and it will be fine, that they can do derm or plastic surg. They MIGHT...and I said MIGHT...be able to get into cosmetic surgery a backdoor way by doing general surgery then cosmetic surg (as mentioned above) but to actually get into a plastics residency will be very, very, very, very hard. Likewise for derm...derm would be worse and very likely impossible no matter how well the student does in med school. Rads is also likely to be very, very tough, though there are some who apparently manage it. Trust me, I know about this stuff...I went to a well known med school in the US and even the students in the top 1/3 of our class were sweating bullets about getting into these type specialties. The residency match ends up being a numbers game, and when there are tons and tons and tons of well qualified US grads who want the spots every year, there just isn't a reason for most residency programs to take any kind of chance on a foreign grad, no matter how high his/her USMLE scores. General surg. is somewhat of a different story, but even that will be damn hard to get from a Caribbean school, and if the OP doesn't end up in the top of his class it might be impossible. Personally I'd only go to the Caribbean for school if I was willing to consider a wide variety of specialties, and if his stats are even marginally competitive for school in the US, it would be better to try at least once or twice for a US school before bailing for the Caribbean.

 

[BrainBuff]

Thanks for everyones input, I really appreciate it. Trying to get into gen surg is easier being a DO than from SGU? I thought that it was much harder for DOs to get into surgical res. than it is for MDs even if they are from SGU? I see many students on SGUs match list that got into gen surg?

CONSIDER this ok? Dr. Wittenborn is a young plastic surgeon in southwest FL who graduated from SGU. He is also the Cheif plastic surgeon at all of the four main hospitals in Fort Myers FL. Are you saying that it is unlikely that I will be able to accomplish this from SGU as well? But if I have a high GPA from SGU and I do well on the USMLE will it make that big of a difference where I go to school DO or SGU? Isn't the USMLE more based on Science, so the fact that I got a 12 and a 13 in the science parts of the MCAT mean that I will do well on the USMLE, thus no need to worry about my MCAT score ?

here is that drs website with his info
http://www.wittenbornmd.com/

Patients really scrutinize plastic surgeon credentials now days, and in my opinion, more often than those of any other medical specialist. Anything is possible and I am sure that this guy is not the only SGU graduate to do plastics. However, a look at his credentials shows pretty much the practically unknown residency programs where carib graduates find spots at for the most part : Christiana Care Health System for surgical internship?, Mercy Catholic for surgery residency? Now, the good news is that he clearly worked his ass off during those years to get noticed and land a spot at a university based fellowship program like U South Florida and later Oklahoma (then again those are not household name programs in plastics either)

The lesson is that residency programs although mediocre, may level the playing field somewhat and if you shine, you may find yourself in a better position while applying to a more competitive fellowship. Still, this is the exception, not the rule.

 

[berkeleyboy]

Patients really scrutinize plastic surgeon credentials now days, and in my opinion, more often than those of any other medical specialist. Anything is possible and I am sure that this guy is not the only SGU graduate to do plastics. However, a look at his credentials shows pretty much the practically unknown residency programs where carib graduates find spots at for the most part : Christiana Care Health System for surgical internship?, Mercy Catholic for surgery residency? Now, the good news is that he clearly worked his ass off during those years to get noticed and land a spot at a university based fellowship program like U South Florida and later Oklahoma (then again those are not household name programs in plastics either)

The lesson is that residency programs although mediocre, may level the playing field somewhat and if you shine, you may find yourself in a better position while applying to a more competitive fellowship. Still, this is the exception, not the rule.

wow, I haven't posted here in years and its interesting to note the exact same posts are circulating around except for this one.

First I'd like to say it is possible to to end up doing plastics if you start out at a caribbean medical school, but it is an uphill battle and requires a lot of work. I know of specifically of 4 people who started out as caribbean students and are currently plastic surgery residents. all of them transferred to US medical schools at some point during their time at either St. George's or Ross. So it can be done but to match integrated plastics after medical school you basically have to be able to transfer to a US medical school.

BTW, christiana health care system is a very well respected and reputable community general surgery program and any FMG and AMG would be happy to match there for GS training. and being that there are so few training plastics training programs USF and oklahoma are very well known programs within the plastic surgery community.

 

[NRAI2001]

Is it possible ...I suppose; Will it likely happen = very very unlikely.

 

[NRAI2001]

I didn't come in here hoping to incite a war as you seem to think. i saw the post on the forum and decided to respond.

I have no problem with Caribbean med students and have many friends who chose to go that path. That being said, I don't think Caribbean students should go in with the mind set on plastics or derm or ENT, etc. The point of Caribbean med schools (besides the profit) was to set up schools to allow those that couldn't get into American schools to get educated to fill the gaps left by American grads, namely in primary care at this point. So no, I don't think what I said was that inappropriate. I don't think, nor will I ever, that those graduates (IMG/FMG) that are allowed to enter the match system to fill the empty spots not filled by AMG's should be going after specialties/spots where there are more than enough AMG's to fill them.

You keep mentioning that I'm a mentor and you expect something different. I mentor in Radiation Oncology; that doesn't mean I am not allowed to have or express strong views I have in other areas.

With regards to the discussion of AMGs vs USIMGs matching into specialities you say that it is only right to allow US citizens/greencard holders to get these spots bc they grew up in the US and will continue to work in the US...but isnt this also true for the US citizen who decided to go the carribean route? THey too have grown up, paid taxes, have families, and will continue to work in the US? Where does your logic stand with regards to this?

Also what makes US MD schools intrinsically better than carribean schools teaching US CITIZENS so much as to in your opinion warrant treating the carribean students as 2nd class? Is it based on knowledge level? Board scores? Personality characteristics??

Or is it based on your infered argument basically stating that "US MD schools are harder to get into....." and ending at that point with no other logical explanation than this... What is it about US medical students that makes them so "deserving of/entitled to " residencies/specialities that nothing else matters??


..are US MD schools harder to get into than the carrib schools = YES; BUT does that mean every US student will be better than every Carrib student = NO WAY.....does that even mean that most US students will on average be much better trained than carrib students = PROBABLY NOT (especially since clinical rotations are IN THE US with THE US STUDENTS; and the basic science text books are the same).

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

First off, I never mentioned green card holders or anything of that nature; simply put, I stated that AMG’s should have 1st preference at US based residencies; my argument had nothing to do with taxes being paid or anything of that nature. The basis of my argument was two fold. First off, in the majority of other countries around the world a US med graduate will not have a chance to match before a graduate from that country (ex. Europe or Asia). Shouldn’t the same be done in the US to protect graduates that actually trained in the country? Second, regardless of what you want to say Caribbean med schools are inferior to US med schools, as a whole. There is a reason that 99.99% of people pick an American school over a Caribbean school. Caribbean schools are designed for students unable to get into an American school. As someone who knows a fair number of Caribbean grads, they themselves say that their education is significantly different than an American education in that much of their focus was on USMLE Step I rather than core material that might not be tested but is important. Many carib grads make an argument regarding board scores which to me is apples to oranges. How can I compare an AMG Step I score after 3-5 weeks of prep to many Carribean grads who study for months prior to the examination and who go to courses designed to prep them for the examination.

To me I equate US vs. Caribbean med schools to the NBA draft with the US being the first round picks and Caribbean the 2nd. Are there some 2nd rounders that should have gone in the 1st? Absolutely yes. However, at the end of the day, until they prove themselves (which I argue Step I and II is not), they are considered inferior products to 1st rounders. In the end many of those 2nd rounders exceed the 1st rounders but based on the body of work prior to the draft that is how they are ranked. At the end of the day,

I see no problem with Caribbean graduates or FMG's applying for residency. What I take issue with is someone coming in and saying, I as a Caribbean student am going for plastic surgery. Why should someone who couldn't get the 1st step of the process right by not getting into an American med school be considered for whatg is the most difficult direct residency to achieve (approx 50 spots/year) and one of the most if not the most difficult fellowships?

Very interesting. As others have stated previously, you are entitled to your opinion. However, you are an AMG as you have admited. You are participating in a forum where the majority of visitors are US IMGs. And you are saying we are INFERIOR.

There is only one conclusion I can come to:

:troll:

 

[Ariee]

First off, I never mentioned green card holders or anything of that nature; simply put, I stated that AMG’s should have 1st preference at US based residencies; my argument had nothing to do with taxes being paid or anything of that nature. The basis of my argument was two fold. First off, in the majority of other countries around the world a US med graduate will not have a chance to match before a graduate from that country (ex. Europe or Asia). Shouldn’t the same be done in the US to protect graduates that actually trained in the country? Second, regardless of what you want to say Caribbean med schools are inferior to US med schools, as a whole. There is a reason that 99.99% of people pick an American school over a Caribbean school. Caribbean schools are designed for students unable to get into an American school. As someone who knows a fair number of Caribbean grads, they themselves say that their education is significantly different than an American education in that much of their focus was on USMLE Step I rather than core material that might not be tested but is important. Many carib grads make an argument regarding board scores which to me is apples to oranges. How can I compare an AMG Step I score after 3-5 weeks of prep to many Carribean grads who study for months prior to the examination and who go to courses designed to prep them for the examination.

To me I equate US vs. Caribbean med schools to the NBA draft with the US being the first round picks and Caribbean the 2nd. Are there some 2nd rounders that should have gone in the 1st? Absolutely yes. However, at the end of the day, until they prove themselves (which I argue Step I and II is not), they are considered inferior products to 1st rounders. In the end many of those 2nd rounders exceed the 1st rounders but based on the body of work prior to the draft that is how they are ranked. At the end of the day,

I see no problem with Caribbean graduates or FMG's applying for residency. What I take issue with is someone coming in and saying, I as a Caribbean student am going for plastic surgery. Why should someone who couldn't get the 1st step of the process right by not getting into an American med school be considered for whatg is the most difficult direct residency to achieve (approx 50 spots/year) and one of the most if not the most difficult fellowships?

I agree with Tigerz, 100%, stop feeding the TROLL...I mean are you kidding, this silly argument is still going on...oh boy.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM. THE PATIENTS TEAM!
I don't know how else to communicate this across, do you speak french, or spanish? I could try those languages as well...oh boy!
A team is a circle not a friggen damn hierarchy, so lets put down our high-horses and get the: I'm better than you, so you can't play with me cliche out of our childish heads and move on.
So tired of the asinine silly attitudes on here that hide behind their screen names.
Civility, compassion, gratitude, humbleness, humility, friendliness...
I'm sorry, but I'd never want someone like you to be my family or my doctor...your attitude is awful and your cyclical argument doesn't make any sense as you don't draw upon reason, you draw upon nonsense.
Ariee

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

The only reason I posted again in this thread was there was a comment made today regarding one of my posts and I responded, simple as that.

Then when you post, for once, post something that is not anti-IMG. Otherwise, you are just trolling this forum.

 

[tjaze]

tigerz_fan and ariee should lay off wagy. accusing someone of trolling just because he's in a forum that doesn't apply to him and you don't agree with him. perhaps he, like me, just happens to look at today's posts and click on what's interesting. we doesn't agree with the idea that we all live in gumdrop houses on lollipop lane and everyone's equal to everyone else. his assertion that U.S. schools are better is true. no one in their right mind wants to go to the carib just because. it's only when they can't get in to the U.S that they choose this option.

His logic is also sound that U.S. students are higher caliber than carib students. U.S. med schools require higher MCATs, higher GPA, etc. The fact that you question that is silly. There's no point in talking about the 1% that are successful from the carib or the 1% that are failures at US schools.

Third, most US students will think US spots should be for AMGs because those are the spots they need. That is simply proper. Residency should train those that went to school here. PD know what kind of education an AMG got and that it's standardized throughout the country. We don't know what kind of an education an IMG got from say India or China, let alone a carib school set up simply because someone saw a profit in it.

Stop acting like no one should have a strong opinion and defend it. Taking the middle is what's wrong with people thesedays.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

tigerz_fan and ariee should lay off wagy. accusing someone of trolling just because he's in a forum that doesn't apply to him and you don't agree with him. perhaps he, like me, just happens to look at today's posts and click on what's interesting. we doesn't agree with the idea that we all live in gumdrop houses on lollipop lane and everyone's equal to everyone else. his assertion that U.S. schools are better is true. no one in their right mind wants to go to the carib just because. it's only when they can't get in to the U.S that they choose this option.

His logic is also sound that U.S. students are higher caliber than carib students. U.S. med schools require higher MCATs, higher GPA, etc. The fact that you question that is silly. There's no point in talking about the 1% that are successful from the carib or the 1% that are failures at US schools.

Third, most US students will think US spots should be for AMGs because those are the spots they need. That is simply proper. Residency should train those that went to school here. PD know what kind of education an AMG got and that it's standardized throughout the country. We don't know what kind of an education an IMG got from say India or China, let alone a carib school set up simply because someone saw a profit in it.

Stop acting like no one should have a strong opinion and defend it. Taking the middle is what's wrong with people thesedays.

As stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

However, it is one thing to discuss the extreme difficulty that a Carib grad will have to match in plastics. And to present the OP with a polite reality check, so to speak.

It is another to say the OP is ridiculous (as the poster in question did), then change the subject of the thread to discuss leaving IMGs out of the Match (as he did). And finally, use the term "inferior."

I have no problem with people who have strong opinions; I am one of them.
However, to change the subject of a thread in such a negative manner implies troll. I may be wrong, and he may just have a piss-poor way of expressing his opinion. If I am wrong, then I invite him to prove me wrong, post in the forum, and participate in a discussion without using phases like I stated above.

 

[Ariee]

tjaze,

Please read all the posts under this topic before you post...

IMHO, the problem is not taking the middle these days with people. The problem is not having the common sense to know when to keep your mouth shut and behumble yourself. However, you are entitled to express your opinion and I invite you to go express all your radical views to your upper levels, please go ahead...

An example of a poster with opposite views would be dragonfly, who is a respectable poster on this forum. DF like tigerz and myself advise everyone to go to the US/CDN medschool and everything else that has been discussed within this topic cyclically. However, unlike us, dragonfly is an AMG and we are IMG's. Unlike wagy, dragonfly has a respectable courtesy & professionalism in her comments which does not make her appear like a troller.

Wagy- Would you walk up to an IMG Attdg and express your so wonderful opinion, or even your IMG colleague who may or may not be sending you those consults and referals...

Please people, when you post on here, make sure you've got the same tempo in real life. Say all the same things you would on here as you would to someone you're facing...I sure do.

Ariee

 

[NRAI2001]

tigerz_fan and ariee should lay off wagy. accusing someone of trolling just because he's in a forum that doesn't apply to him and you don't agree with him. perhaps he, like me, just happens to look at today's posts and click on what's interesting. we doesn't agree with the idea that we all live in gumdrop houses on lollipop lane and everyone's equal to everyone else. his assertion that U.S. schools are better is true. no one in their right mind wants to go to the carib just because. it's only when they can't get in to the U.S that they choose this option.

His logic is also sound that U.S. students are higher caliber than carib students. U.S. med schools require higher MCATs, higher GPA, etc. The fact that you question that is silly. There's no point in talking about the 1% that are successful from the carib or the 1% that are failures at US schools.

Third, most US students will think US spots should be for AMGs because those are the spots they need. That is simply proper. Residency should train those that went to school here. PD know what kind of education an AMG got and that it's standardized throughout the country. We don't know what kind of an education an IMG got from say India or China, let alone a carib school set up simply because someone saw a profit in it.

Stop acting like no one should have a strong opinion and defend it. Taking the middle is what's wrong with people thesedays.

The notion that there is a "calliber of students" is funny.. thats like saying students are like wine; they re just better bc they re better.. there is something intrinsic to them that makes the "Better" --> this thinking leads to another thing called "entitlement" i.e. US students should be treated better just bc of their being US students irrespective of anything else BAM case-closed..

Would carribean students perfer to be in the US = definitely; but this is not bc they feel their education is inferior this is mainly bc A) there are many conviences in the US B) its true residencies perfer US students over Carrib/IMG students to a certain degree..

Now I can understand PDs picking AMG MDs over carrib grads who may have the same stats or even slightly higher...but from what I understand this can usually be over come with having stats (board scores mainly) that are slightly to significantly above the average of the US MDs applying to the same spot; OR if you did an elective rotation there and impressed the PD enough to invite you to stay. I believe this to be fair and I believe this is what usually happens.

(by the way what does undergrad GPA really mean; you spoke of standardization of AMGs (which is total BS in itself, no two US schools will ever be the same or make attempts to be the same)...what does a 3.6 GPA really mean if the average grade in your courses was a B+/A- ?? Some colleges are just plain easier and have grade inflation. Someone could potentially go to an easier state/private school get a 3.7 and get a 27mcat and still barely get into a US school.

 

[Ariee]

thats like saying students are like wine

I'm adding that to my list of favorite quotes...haha

I'm Don Perigon vintage 1983...

 

[NRAI2001]

I'm adding that to my list of favorite quotes...haha

I'm Don Perigon vintage 1983...

Airee loves the wine.. haha

NRai is Dom. Romane Conti 1997 - app. $1,540

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with the comments above about the grade inflation and/or variable grading among various undergrad schools in the U.S. I am sure there are a lot of qualified premeds turned down for U.S. med school admissions every year because they were in difficult majors, like engineering or physics, and/or they went to schools that grade hard/are difficult. This is an inherent problem in the admissions process, since it seems like some medical schools barely look at where the grades were from, and it's clearly just as hard to get a B+ in some difficult classes, or at schools that grade lower, as it is to get an A at a lot of other colleges. There's really no fix for this problem, though, as it would require adcoms to be familiar with grading standards at every school throughout the US, which will never happen. I actually think my undergrad graded pretty hard/low compared with some others, and I'm sure anyone who could hack a 3.4-3.5 there could easily pass in med school if motivated, and I'd equate a 3.5 at my undergrad with a 3.85 at a lot of other schools. I'd equate a 3.2 physics or chem. major GPA with a 3.85 at a lot of other schools - I personally majored in bio, which was for us weeny science majors!

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

I agree with the comments above about the grade inflation and/or variable grading among various undergrad schools in the U.S. I am sure there are a lot of qualified premeds turned down for U.S. med school admissions every year because they were in difficult majors, like engineering or physics, and/or they went to schools that grade hard/are difficult. This is an inherent problem in the admissions process, since it seems like some medical schools barely look at where the grades were from, and it's clearly just as hard to get a B+ in some difficult classes, or at schools that grade lower, as it is to get an A at a lot of other colleges. There's really no fix for this problem, though, as it would require adcoms to be familiar with grading standards at every school throughout the US, which will never happen. I actually think my undergrad graded pretty hard/low compared with some others, and I'm sure anyone who could hack a 3.4-3.5 there could easily pass in med school if motivated, and I'd equate a 3.5 at my undergrad with a 3.85 at a lot of other schools. I'd equate a 3.2 physics or chem. major GPA with a 3.85 at a lot of other schools - I personally majored in bio, which was for us weeny science majors!

Totally agree.

 

[womp]

Berkeleyboy, I want your Grassmudhorse!

 

[schrizto]

Berkeleyboy, I want your Grassmudhorse!

isn't that a bunchie?

 

[berkeleyboy]

isn't that a bunchie?

Yea, its a bunchie

Bunchie Definition:

A creature with four legs and an elongated neck. Also Capable of attaining high speeds while galloping. Similar in appearance to that of a male phallus.

 

[Shosha]

........................................

 

[RussianJoo]

So wait you had to droup out of udnergrad and go to a state university where you still kicked butt because you were poor. i get that, but what happened in your state school that caused your grades to drop? obviously 36mcat is a great score, what happened that you failed so much? couldn't you drop a few classes or take a leave of abscense during that time and leave the classes as incompletes? medical leave of abscense is given out pretty easily. seemsl like if you hadn't screwed up that one time you chould have gotten into a US med school. also what about trying to get a masters in something to make up for the poor grades that one time, it seems that you didn't try to correct your screw up and just simply took it as sign that you won't be a doctor? the samething could have been said about dropping out of JHU, you could have become an RA like i did to pay for your room and board, and done other work or applied for more grants and in the mean time taken out loans under your name, just so that you could stay at JHU, but no you just quit.

but now you're going to the most expensive medical school in the caribbean and kicking butt again that's great but becareful of running into a chalange cause you might quit again. what's the point of this rant? everyone has a rough life but most people don't just take no for an answer and quit, but find otherways of making their dreams happen, yeah you're doing that now but you missed all those other oppertunities in the past.

why shouldn't US grads with 225 think they're better than you even though you got a 230, they always had solid scores and it didn't it took them half the time to get to where you are right now, you on the other hand were up then down, people like to see consistancy, that's why an mcat score of 12 12 12 is much better than a score of 14 13 9 or 14 14 8. You also gave up when times got tough, they didn't. There were plenty of ways you could have fixed those F's at your state school by taking higher level courses or getting more degrees but didn't do any of that and just chose to work a dead end job. that just means you didn't want it badly enough.

thanks for pointless rant and good luck on your USMLE and i don't know what USMLE Prep 601 is, but Kaplan and USMLE World Question bank is the way to go. goog luck.