Can medical students/doctors still have happy families outside of the hospital?

[lemoncurry]

It's good to discuss all sides of an issue, but it can and should be done without any negative comments directed toward others. Keep it civil, please.

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[scarletgirl777]

Do some research on mother-infant reciprocity during the first years of life and its impact on the formation of healthy socialization and self-esteem. As seen touted proudly in the posts above, the ability to contain and nourish life in its primitive stage is a uniquely feminine gift. That ability, however, has consequences with development that reach beyond parturition. The entire process of suckling a child, colostrum, and weaning is absolutely important in that it is the first stable contact the child has with another human and therefore forms the basis for the child's decision to either trust or mistrust future interactions. Does that mean there's only one way to raise a child? No. Does it mean that "it doesn't matter how you raise your kid cause some turn out good and some turn out bad anyway"? Well that's for the person involved to decide. There is, however, a difference between mother-infant contact and father-infant contact. I will totally give you though that beyond a certain age it becomes less important who is the caregiver. I'm sure a kid can turn out okay from being sung lullabies by his dad and sucking down baby milk from a bottle instead of a teet during infancy but you have to admit, it isn't as natural.

Exactly. Obviously breastfeeding has great benefits, but people who argue for mothers "taking care of their kids" are usually not just talking about breastfeeding, or the age when kids breastfeeding. Five year olds don't need mother's milk anymore.

 

[Dr Lyss]

Exactly. Obviously breastfeeding has great benefits, but people who argue for mothers "taking care of their kids" are usually not just talking about breastfeeding, or the age when kids breastfeeding. Five year olds don't need mother's milk anymore.

wait... so I can't breast feed anymore

 

[scarletgirl777]

wait... so I can't breast feed anymore

No one's saying that. I guess you could pump, although those things disturb me.

 

[Meade]

Edit.

 

[Dr Lyss]

No one's saying that. I guess you could pump, although those things disturb me.

haha I was making a joke scarlet! I mean, it's not like I was still breast feeding over the age of 10... Ew imagine if people did that tho

 

[Dream With Me]

This is an interesting topic that I've often wondered about myself.

 

[seelee]

haha I was making a joke scarlet! I mean, it's not like I was still breast feeding over the age of 10... Ew imagine if people did that tho

In third world countries this is actually pretty common. I lived in Brazil for a few years and saw this on a regular basis.

 

[binko]

My personal anecdotal evidence, FWIW:

My mom started law school the year after I was born, while my father was doing residency at Mayo. They went on to have 3 more kids after me. I'd say we were (and still are) pretty happy. It was a lot of strain and sacrifice for all involved for them both to be so busy, don't get me wrong, but it def. didn't ruin our family or anything. As a kid I would have liked more attention, but now I find it very nice to have such good role models for balancing demanding career and family. Overall my feeling when I think about it is that I'm proud of them, not that I'm angry they didn't have more time to spend with me.

 

[free09]

My bf (i prefer to call him 'AF' almost fiance lol) and I are considering getting married, but he wants me to explain how having a family+medicine would work for both of us. I have 2 teaching certifications and he thinks I should stick with teaching. I do enjoy teaching but cannot find a regular job, and have been dreaming about medicine for a long time.

He says we shouldn't bring a kid into the world if we cannot devote our time to 'it'. I was upset at first...saying why do i have to choose between career and family and you don't....and he said, "you know, I wish I had the choice like you, but i *need* to have the career in order to have a family, you don't." As annoying as it is, it's true, my parents definitely would not accept an unemployed son-in-law aspiring to be a stay-at home dad, while a female version of this is considered ok by most people. Another obvious thing he said was that as much as he wants to help me, he cannot be pregnant and nurse the child for me.

Anyway, I have been thinking so much about the purpose of my life the last few days and what my old dreams were. is my life just to get married, and fertilized? On the other hand, my mom has 4 cousins who never got married, and now they are in their 50s and they say it is very isolating socially and they have intense regret for not marrying/having children. I don't want to be either person.

I had a blurry idea of my ideal life at 30 as a teenager. I thought I would be a
* MD
*married
* At least 2 kids by age 35
*Stay at home with them for the first 3 years.
*Travel during summer to my parent's native country and having a free clinic. Operating on fistulas, or people with cataracts. Somehow I was doing both. lol. (of course i know about specialties now)

Now I think about all these bits and pieces together and realize I really can't 'have it all'.They don't even match up.

I'm feeling more pressure to figure out what I want the most in my 'ideal picture' because AF says we are going to be over if I don't finalize a plan soon.

so i thought about it, see this is the 'ideal' US med path:

18-22 Undergrad
22-26 Medical School
26-30 1 yr Transitional year+3 yr Residency (for Gas, oph, obgyn)
30-34
35 dramatic decrease in fertility

So if I had followed the standard route, i would have had a window between 30-34 to have kids, stay at home with them, and then practice. A little tight, but possible.

But right now, if I pursue medicine, the path would be:
18-24 Undergrad
25 Unemployed, but looking for job, write MCAT
26 apply/gap between acceptance and start
27-31 Medical School
31-35 Residency

Of course you can have kids in medical school or residency, but then you may have to compromise on not being their primary caregiver timewise. You might also have to compromise on the # of kids you are able to have. And note that the 'ideal' timeline isn't followed by most people these days, many people take 5 years for undergrad, or time to gain life experience.

You can definitely become a doctor, but you will have to alter your expectations of home life to find your own balance. You would definitely need outside help. Ex. Nanny, housekeeper, grandma, daycare, etc. As long as you manage your expectations, and time, having a family and being a doctor are doable.

 

[seelee]

My bf (i prefer to call him 'AF' almost fiance lol) and I are considering getting married, but he wants me to explain how having a family+medicine would work for both of us. I have 2 teaching certifications and he thinks I should stick with teaching. I do enjoy teaching but cannot find a regular job, and have been dreaming about medicine for a long time.

He says we shouldn't bring a kid into the world if we cannot devote our time to 'it'. I was upset at first...saying why do i have to choose between career and family and you don't....and he said, "you know, I wish I had the choice like you, but i *need* to have the career in order to have a family, you don't." As annoying as it is, it's true, my parents definitely would not accept an unemployed son-in-law aspiring to be a stay-at home dad, while a female version of this is considered ok by most people. Another obvious thing he said was that as much as he wants to help me, he cannot be pregnant and nurse the child for me.

Anyway, I have been thinking so much about the purpose of my life the last few days and what my old dreams were. is my life just to get married, and fertilized? On the other hand, my mom has 4 cousins who never got married, and now they are in their 50s and they say it is very isolating socially and they have intense regret for not marrying/having children. I don't want to be either person.

I had a blurry idea of my ideal life at 30 as a teenager. I thought I would be a
* MD
*married
* At least 2 kids by age 35
*Stay at home with them for the first 3 years.
*Travel during summer to my parent's native country and having a free clinic. Operating on fistulas, or people with cataracts. Somehow I was doing both. lol. (of course i know about specialties now)

Now I think about all these bits and pieces together and realize I really can't 'have it all'.They don't even match up.

I'm feeling more pressure to figure out what I want the most in my 'ideal picture' because AF says we are going to be over if I don't finalize a plan soon.

so i thought about it, see this is the 'ideal' US med path:

18-22 Undergrad
22-26 Medical School
26-30 1 yr Transitional year+3 yr Residency (for Gas, oph, obgyn)
30-34
35 dramatic decrease in fertility

So if I had followed the standard route, i would have had a window between 30-34 to have kids, stay at home with them, and then practice. A little tight, but possible.

But right now, if I pursue medicine, the path would be:
18-24 Undergrad
25 Unemployed, but looking for job, write MCAT
26 apply/gap between acceptance and start
27-31 Medical School
31-35 Residency

Of course you can have kids in medical school or residency, but then you may have to compromise on not being their primary caregiver timewise. You might also have to compromise on the # of kids you are able to have. And note that the 'ideal' timeline isn't followed by most people these days, many people take 5 years for undergrad, or time to gain life experience.

You can definitely become a doctor, but you will have to alter your expectations of home life to find your own balance. You would definitely need outside help. Ex. Nanny, housekeeper, grandma, daycare, etc. As long as you manage your expectations, and time, having a family and being a doctor are doable.

I appreciate your dillemma, I am certainly not going to try to guilt you into one decision or another. But I am sure that you can appreciate the notion that has become popular which says that for a woman to be fulfilled, she must have a career. That to stay home requires you suppressing who you are, etc. I just want to say that I think that motherhood is the noblest calling in the world. Think about that, Men physically cannot nuture a child the way that a woman can. I feel strongly that men cannot come close to understanding the bond between mother and child. Many women want to go into medicine for altruistic reasons, and that is great. But don't for a moment think that staying home and raising your children is one iota less worthwhile than being a physician. Don't think that because you feel a need to raise your children, that you are taking the easy way out, or that you are selling yourself short. In my opinion, you are taking the more noble path. Doctors work hard, long hours, but they also get the respect, the money, the status. Mothers work is essentially the same, though without the pay.

I hope that if you decide to devote your time to raising your children, you will do it without regrets. I hope that you will appreciate the magnitude of the task you have undertaken and that you don't let the naysayers who think that you are selling yourself short, get you down. Mother's are vital to a healthy society. Theirs is a sacred, divinely appointed role for which there is no better substitute.

good luck with your decision.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I appreciate your dillemma, I am certainly not going to try to guilt you into one decision or another. But I am sure that you can appreciate the notion that has become popular which says that for a woman to be fulfilled, she must have a career. That to stay home requires you suppressing who you are, etc. I just want to say that I think that motherhood is the noblest calling in the world. Think about that, Men physically cannot nuture a child the way that a woman can. I feel strongly that men cannot come close to understanding the bond between mother and child. Many women want to go into medicine for altruistic reasons, and that is great. But don't for a moment think that staying home and raising your children is one iota less worthwhile than being a physician. Don't think that because you feel a need to raise your children, that you are taking the easy way out, or that you are selling yourself short. In my opinion, you are taking the more noble path. Doctors work hard, long hours, but they also get the respect, the money, the status. Mothers work is essentially the same, though without the pay.

I hope that if you decide to devote your time to raising your children, you will do it without regrets. I hope that you will appreciate the magnitude of the task you have undertaken and that you don't let the naysayers who think that you are selling yourself short, get you down. Mother's are vital to a healthy society. Theirs is a sacred, divinely appointed role for which there is no better substitute.

good luck with your decision.

I guess I just don't see motherhood and career as exclusive. Especially if you do not have like 5 kids, there is a lot of down time. You are not any less of a mother if you have a professional housekeeper or gardener or whatever, and like I said, you don't need to be the one to change every diaper or make every meal to be a mother. Giving advice and guidance and love is still possible if you have a job--that's why fathers can still be fathers even if they have a full-time job and no one holds it against them.

My mother was a stay-at-home mother, and I appreciate that's what she wanted and saw was best for her situation. But if you know that you don't want to do that, that it would not be satisfying for you, you're not failing your kids.

 

[scarletgirl777]

haha I was making a joke scarlet! I mean, it's not like I was still breast feeding over the age of 10... Ew imagine if people did that tho

Haha appreciated

 

[seelee]

But if you know that you don't want to do that, that it would not be satisfying for you, you're not failing your kids.

Is that what you inferred from my post? If it was then you must have interpreted "staying home with your children is just as noble a calling as being a physician, if not more so" as "all women who don't stay home are failing their kids".

Seems like kind of a stretch to me.

 

[free09]

Well I definitely do place a great value on parental involvement and guidance but even my own mother (who was a SAHM) has told me not to be one. And it's not due to societal pressure, as my mom comes from a society where daycares do not even exist and careers are discouraged. She actually grew up in a joint family home, where all the sisters-in-law (i.e. my aunts) took care of each others kids. 3 out of 4 of my aunts have careers and all their kids have the lifelong love of their aunts and own mother. This has turned out to be a real blessing, as one of my uncles is very ill now and if it was not for my aunt working, they would be completely destitute. My point is that we shouldn't be too rigid about our positions about what is best; sometimes the non-conventional arrangements can turn out to be just as healthy or even better for a child.

 

[DearSky]

This is an interesting topic that I've often wondered about myself.

Same. I've heard that <statistic> doctors are the unhappiest people amongst occupations. That doesn't suprise me.

 

[tennisball80]

Off course we can, I am going to get a house-wife like woman who wants to support inside of the house.

 

[Gallix23]

Same. I've heard that <statistic> doctors are the unhappiest people amongst occupations. That doesn't suprise me.

I've never heard that. I've always heard it was social workers and things who were the unhappiest.

However, you really can't go by statistics like that, you have to take them with a grain of salt. When you think about it, why would a doctor who was very happy with life and their career take the time to fill out a survey like that? I'm sure they'd have better things to do. Normally it's the unhappy ones who feel the need to express their frustration that take the surveys, and thereby skew the results.

 

[Crazyday]

I've never heard that. I've always heard it was social workers and things who were the unhappiest.

However, you really can't go by statistics like that, you have to take them with a grain of salt. When you think about it, why would a doctor who was very happy with life and their career take the time to fill out a survey like that? I'm sure they'd have better things to do. Normally it's the unhappy ones who feel the need to express their frustration that take the surveys, and thereby skew the results.

Well clinically, med students/residents are the population second most prone to depression and suicidal inclinations, behind dentists I think. Either way it's pretty far up there. And I don't think that's really statistics, that just clinical data.

Attendings also might've been included. It's been a while since I read it, but it showed that it was definitely a very stressful job and a lot of people with naive/uninformed thoughts about the profession get crushed when they actually get into it.

Is it possible to be happy and have a happy family? It depends on your specialty and what your, and your family's, definition of happy is, and if your family can understand that "happiness" is not going to be butterflies and daisies all year round spending time together 24/7 like the Braidie Bunch.

The medical profession takes sacrifice. A lot of personal sacrifice. Anyone who tells you differently is a naive, idealistic fool who will have their optimism crushed once they get into the real world outside of their bubble.

It is possible to be happy and have a happy family life. But it's a different type of happiness. You'll come to appreciate the time that you do have to spend with your family, and you can only hope that they will too. Because it may be a scarce thing, its value will surely increase.

I think the same thing applies to raising your children. Because you won't be pushing beliefs and everything on them all of the time like some parents, when they mature, the time you did spend and the ideologies you did push will be so much more powerful in their minds. In a way, I think you might have even more influence. As they grow to understand how hard you work and what you do, and how hard you've fought to attain the position you've gotten, they will appreciate that and model themselves off of that. This has potential to be more powerful than anything any stay at home mother could ever do.

I think some folks really need to calm down though. Nobody was flaming anybody else or trying to come off as chauvinistic. People were just claiming what they believed, and that's their right just as it is your right to civilly refute that. Personal attacks on religion etc. are extremely uncalled for and very crude.

 

[xnfs93hy]

Same. I've heard that <statistic> doctors are the unhappiest people amongst occupations. That doesn't suprise me.

So are dentists.

 

[lhtran07]

Yes, dentists get very depressed having to work 4 days a wk (30-40 hrs) and making 6 figure incomes. Sheesh...what was I thinking?!

 

[Gallix23]

Yes, dentists get very depressed having to work 4 days a wk (30-40 hrs) and making 6 figure incomes. Sheesh...what was I thinking?!

Actually, it IS true that they have the most unhappiness amongst the medical professions. Mostly because

A. Those 6 figures don't come easy; most dentists need to open private practices which are very financially demanding until you have a big, loyal clientele.

B. Most dentists don't get respected as being M.Ds, as the common "you're a dentist, not a doctor" line is often used. This causes frustration and depression, or so I have read.

 

[lhtran07]

lol...i read about it too

It is a well known fact that dentists have the highest suicide rates, followed closely by air-traffic-controllers. My dad's brother has a dog who's veterinarian's pharmacist said so. And he should know.

You can see it for yourself at www.gullible.com

Ok...jokes aside, it gets stressful owning a private practice no matter if its dental or med. Almost all dentists I know are very satisfied with their career and what they do, and that says a lot more to me than what I may "read". The ones that are not happy are those who have been pushed into dentistry and didn't want to be a dentist in the first place.

Dentists do get depressed/suicidal just as anybody in a high-stress profession, but they aren't the most prone to or have the highest rate of depression/suicide. That is a complete myth. The rate of suicide of dentists is not any higher than the rate of suicide of physicians, lawyers, or any other high-stress jobs.

 

[Gallix23]

lol
Ok...jokes aside, it gets stressful owning a private practice no matter if its dental or med. Almost all dentists I know are very satisfied with their career and what they do, and that says a lot more to me than what I may "read". The ones that are not happy are those who have been pushed into dentistry and didn't want to be a dentist in the first place.
.

Who gets "pushed" into a career...and a pretty hard-to-reach career at that?

All I know is, I was looking into dentistry myself, so I talked to my dad who owns a dental lab. He said that most of the dentists he does work for are miserable, and advised me away from dentistry.

 

[NonTradMed]

My point is that we shouldn't be too rigid about our positions about what is best; sometimes the non-conventional arrangements can turn out to be just as healthy or even better for a child.

Exactly. I hate it when people start sprouting a rigid standard of 'how children shall be raised' without acknowledging the different ways people in this world have raised kids.

The "traditional nuclear family" is an oxymoron. The nuclear family ideal came about during the nuclear age. The traditional family used to consist of aunts, uncles and cousins and grandparents. And in those households, mom (gasp!) may not even be with the kid 24/7. Grandparents, aunts and uncles all get dibs on the baby and parenting was much more communal. If you ask me, the current way of a SAHM alone in a house with kids all day is the unnatural way to raise kids. Children should see grandparents and uncles and aunts adult role models, not just mom, and women should be allowed daily adult interaction.

In China, this type of arrangement is very common. My grandmother was the primary caretaker of all her grandkids until they started school. No one thought my aunts/uncles irresponsible for letting grandma take care of the grandkids. It was just expected that the adult who has no fulltime job would take care of the little kids. My aunties also took care of each others' kids. My cousins grew up as siblings, close to this day.

As for medicine and family.....am I saying you can be a full time mom and a surgical resident? Of course not. But those aren't your only options. Yes, breastfeeding and mom-child bonding is important immediately after birth, but it's DUMB to throw away a potential career because of that one or two year of breastfeeding/bonding. There are arrangements you can make to ensure that your child gets that maternal attention. And by preschool age, a dad can bond and feed the kid as well as the mom.

What I don't understand is why people think a person cannot have a 30 year medical career simply because moms are tied down with babies for a few years? Why can't babies and bonding interrupt a medical career (if the parents so choose)? Why is it that if a woman wants to take a year or two off for babies, she can't go into medicine? A medicine career will last a lifetime, but it does not require a nonstop commitment. Women---gasp---have been able to go to school, get a job, stop and have kids, and then go back to work.

There are many, many female physicians, and I have yet to see ANY statistics that tout physician moms turn out worse kids than SAHM, teacher moms, nursing moms, or biker moms. In fact, the more educated a women is, the higher the child's verbal skills are. There have been studies that show a highly educated momma raise more academic children.

Is a good mother one that wipes poop and cooks dinner for her kids? Sure. Is a good mother one who is able to provide for a family, especially during rough economic times? Yes! Is a good mother someone able to provide positive role model for her daughter? Absolutely.

Can you be a good mother and a good doctor? I absolutely think you can. But I'm biased. My mom had a fulltime career. I spent a lot of quality time with grandma. But my mom never missed anything important in my life. To this day, she is my confident, best friend, and the woman I aspire to be.

 

[lhtran07]

Lots of people still get "pushed" into a career that they aren't passionate about (ie, parental influence). Everybody gets stressed about work, but if its something you love to do and are genuinely interested in doing it then it'll balance out. My family was pushing me to go into medicine, but I wasn't passionate about it. When I went and shadowed dentists, I absolutely loved it. It depends on what you're looking for out of life and what you want to do with your life. Before making any decisions, you need to definitely investigate and see whether the field is the right fit for you.....otherwise if you rush into it without knowing what you're getting yourself into you'll end up unhappy and the stress will get to you.