Can someone explain match scores to me?

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DoctaJay

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Hey everyone, I fully understand what a good MCAT score is and everything, but I really don't understand how the step 1 board scores go. What's the actual scale that its graded on? Is it graded in sections like the MCAT? What considered low, average, and high? Thanks in advance for your answers!
 
You get one score, and it is not graded in any sections, though you will get a summary from the USMLE showing how you did on different subject matter. That info is only for you and is not available to anyone else.

182 is passing. The national mean is usually around 220. Standard deviation is usually between 10 and 15. People who match in the most competitive residencies usually average in the 230s. So a score at least a standard deviation above the mean (>230) is good, though you'd probably want to score higher if you want to be a neurosurgeon or a urologist, for example. Scores around 220 are average. Below 210 is not so great.

GSC
 
doctajay said:
For general surgery, what do you usually have to score to be competitive? Is it as competitive as neurosurg?

That depends on where you want to go. You will get a place if you get at least 220, but if you want to go somewhere competitve, like MGH or JHU, then I would say at least 230+.

Neurosurgery, on the other hand, is quite competitive. My friend who just met with the Dean of Students told me that the average score is 250. I'm not sure if that's the average of applicants from my school or the national average of those who were matched.
 
doctajay said:
For general surgery, what do you usually have to score to be competitive? Is it as competitive as neurosurg?

It is not as competitive as neurosurg, but it is moderately competitive. What constitutes a competitive score depends on whether you want to do academic surgery or not. My advice to you is to do as well as you can on step 1, regardless of what you want to go into. A higher score can only help you, though people with average scores have matched into every specialty. Your residency application is more than your Step 1 score, just like your med school application is more than your MCAT score.

All that being said, I would think somewhere >230 would probably get your foot in the door for academic surgery and >215 for community programs. You'd still have to have a good app and interview. Anybody have any other thoughts on this? I'm essentially pulling numbers out of the air based on my impressions during the application/interview season.
 
Ok, I know nothing about this, but seeing a post on it, I have to ask my stupid questions. 😛 (well how else do you learn?? 😕 )

so if you pass will you get a residency SOMEWHERE???? or do you need a high score to get accepted some place? wha tif it's not a competitive specialty? what isn't competitive? and what's with the less compettivie specialties? lousy hours? lousy pay? people think it has no prestige? what determines it?
 
Psycho Doctor said:
Ok, I know nothing about this, but seeing a post on it, I have to ask my stupid questions. 😛 (well how else do you learn?? 😕 )

so if you pass will you get a residency SOMEWHERE???? or do you need a high score to get accepted some place? wha tif it's not a competitive specialty? what isn't competitive? and what's with the less compettivie specialties? lousy hours? lousy pay? people think it has no prestige? what determines it?

Less desirable lifestyle = less competitive speciality. With the 80 hour work week, general surgery has become a lot more competitve (which wasn't the case a few years back). I think you need more than a passing score to get matched into gen surgery, unless you have amazing grades.

On the other hand, if you are a guy, and want to go into OB/GYN, or if you are interested in family medicine or internal medicine, then I think you will get somewhere as long as you pass the boards. They can't afford to be picky.
 
PhillyGuy said:
Neurosurgery, on the other hand, is quite competitive. My friend who just met with the Dean of Students told me that the average score is 250. I'm not sure if that's the average of applicants from my school or the national average of those who were matched.

Not quite that bad - average neurosurg step I was 235

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=166874&page=1&pp=25

Look on the forums for each specialty, most will have a thread like this one to give you an idea of what scores is takes to get a spot in the given specialty
 
Psycho Doctor said:
Ok, I know nothing about this, but seeing a post on it, I have to ask my stupid questions. 😛 (well how else do you learn?? 😕 )

so if you pass will you get a residency SOMEWHERE???? or do you need a high score to get accepted some place?

There is a projected shortage of physicians thanks to the aging baby boomer generation, and currently a lot of US residencies are filled by foreign trained docs. If you graduate at an allo med school and pass the boards, you will get a residency someplace. But unless you do better than that bare minimum, you may have to move for the spot, and it might not be the specialty of your dreams.
 
I know that for Wash U's general surgery program, they use a lower cutoff of 230. If you get below that, you won't be considered. That said, their surgery program is pretty damn good and competitive and stuff. Not everywhere is this demanding.
 
Psycho Doctor said:
Ok, I know nothing about this, but seeing a post on it, I have to ask my stupid questions. 😛 (well how else do you learn?? 😕 )

so if you pass will you get a residency SOMEWHERE???? or do you need a high score to get accepted some place? wha tif it's not a competitive specialty? what isn't competitive? and what's with the less compettivie specialties? lousy hours? lousy pay? people think it has no prestige? what determines it?

Opinion from an MS4 just been through the match process.

There is no magic formula saying that if you have x step1 score then you will match etc. Alot of how high you are ranked by a program depends on your interview skills. I mean, why would they even interview you if they already knew that they were going to rank you high just based on your board scores alone. Although, I can say "just passing step 1 or 2" ain't gonna cut it for the competitive specialties due to interview cutoffs alone. And yes, more competitive means more pay, and cooler work, but not necessarily lower hours. A pediatrician probably works less hours than a urologist, but the urologist makes 2-3 x the money. The "respect" factor plays into it alot, as well. For EM, a moderately competitive field, you work less hours then everybody and make more than alot of surgeons when you are done. If EM docs had the prestige that some surgical subspecialties had, it would be the most competitive thing out there.
 
Ok, so here's a question I have always wondered...What is the highest you can score on the step 1? Like for the SAT it is 1600, MCAT 45, what is it for the USMLE? Nobody ever says what the score is out of, just what the average is. Is it some sort of weird grading scale without a maximum score?
 
wait, how much does an average EM doc make? I don't think they make more than surgeons in the long run.
 
Zoom-Zoom said:
Ok, so here's a question I have always wondered...What is the highest you can score on the step 1? Like for the SAT it is 1600, MCAT 45, what is it for the USMLE? Nobody ever says what the score is out of, just what the average is. Is it some sort of weird grading scale without a maximum score?

Ive heard that it technically has no limit, but the highest ive ever heard was a 285. In my class someone got a 272.
 
dz88 said:
wait, how much does an average EM doc make? I don't think they make more than surgeons in the long run.

They probably do if you consider pay/hr spent on the job.
 
Plastikos said:
Ive heard that it technically has no limit, but the highest ive ever heard was a 285. In my class someone got a 272.


Ahhh, thanks.
 
Generally though, I think anywhere above 240 and you'll be in fantastic shape. I think the highest at my school this year was around 260.
 
Plastikos said:
Ive heard that it technically has no limit, but the highest ive ever heard was a 285. In my class someone got a 272.

good god. where'd that person match?
-mota
 
I have a question. What does it matter for a competitive residency program whether they take someone with a 230 or a 260 ? It's not like they release yearly reports with averages as the med schools do with MCATs. Or do they?
 
Many of these residency programs just use the score as a cutoff. (As in, people with scores below 220 don't get interviews)

I do think many balance everything out though. A 282 is impressive but if you can't back it up with good letters or good clinical grades, then it can actually be looked upon as a negative. (Doesn't work well with others, studies all the time, etc... etc...)
 
Plastikos said:
They probably do if you consider pay/hr spent on the job.
thanks
 
This discussion prompts me to ask the following question:

Since many programs interview a great many more candidates than there are spots, once you get an interview, how relevant are board scores?
 
Unfortunately, board scores are very relavent, even though the PD will tell you that you that you are on "equal footing" with the other applicants at the interview. Basically, all the interview does is weed out the freak shows, i.e. people with pink hair, severe interpersonal problems...you get the picture. Really...how can 3 or 4 fifteen minute interviews overshadow 3.5 years of hard work in medical school....it can't. Thats not to say that they don't rank applicants with lower scores always lower than those with higher ones. But generally speaking, all they can do is assign a number to each part of the application, i.e. boards, GPA, interviews, LOR, EC's etc. Then come up with an objective score on which to rank applicants. So, even if you make the "cutoff" it is likely that you will be ranked with your boards scores strongly taken in to consideration.
 
Radiohead said:
But generally speaking, all they can do is assign a number to each part of the application, i.e. boards, GPA, interviews, LOR, EC's etc. Then come up with an objective score on which to rank applicants. So, even if you make the "cutoff" it is likely that you will be ranked with your boards scores strongly taken in to consideration.
Hmm, interesting. Because of the large amount of schools that are switching over to PBL and "Sat, Concern, Unsatisfactory", I've been told that most residency's don't look so much at your GPA (since SCU systems don't have GPA's), but really at your "Dean's Letter". Interesting thing about this. You're first two years only end up being a paragraph about 4-6 sentences long on the thing that basically notes that you did well in class and whether or not you had to do any remediation, that you showed up for exams, and that you played nice. Then for your 3rd and 4th year, you have a similar paragraph for every clerkship you do! In general, the longs have a longer paragraph than the shorts and pretty much note how you did in each. So, moral of the story, the only real important thing for your first two years is STEP 1 Prep. So, don't stress too much over it (A disclaimer here would probably be that students who get better grades probably do better on the USMLE, but this isn't always true) Some residency's still do things the old fashioned way, and from what I've heard, its the more competetive residency's that like to stick with the old fashioned ways. Other than this small pickpoint, I agree with the above poster.
 
two basic questions, how does the usmle part I compare to the SAT and MCAT? Is it more conceptual-driven or more memorize and spit out or a hybrid between conceptual and memory stuff.

Also, is it true that if you pass, you can't take the test again? In that case, suppose you got a score of 185, which is barely passing. But someone got a 175 which is failing. Isn't that unfair to the person who barely passed, whereas the 2nd person has another chance to retake the entire exam and with enough work possibly get a much higher score?

Also, since USMLE Part I seems to be very important for the Match, does the Part II really matter or can you b.s. that (and barely pass)
 
masterMood said:
two basic questions, how does the usmle part I compare to the SAT and MCAT? Is it more conceptual-driven or more memorize and spit out or a hybrid between conceptual and memory stuff.

Also, is it true that if you pass, you can't take the test again? In that case, suppose you got a score of 185, which is barely passing. But someone got a 175 which is failing. Isn't that unfair to the person who barely passed, whereas the 2nd person has another chance to retake the entire exam and with enough work possibly get a much higher score?

Also, since USMLE Part I seems to be very important for the Match, does the Part II really matter or can you b.s. that (and barely pass)

As unfair as this sounds some places won't consider you at all if you've failed a step.
Remember too that all this is only important if you want a competitive specialty and have no inner ties to the place you want to go (say otolaryngology) OR you want a competitive place in an uncompetitive specialty (say internal medicine at BWH).
Step II can be important if your step I is subpar. Some programs require a passing step II on file to rank you though some places do not. Some schools require step II to be taken in the earlier part of the year (UNC and Texas Tech come to mind), at other schools (UCSF, Duke e.g.) many take step II around this time of the calendar year.
 
NEATOMD said:
Hmm, interesting. Because of the large amount of schools that are switching over to PBL and "Sat, Concern, Unsatisfactory", I've been told that most residency's don't look so much at your GPA (since SCU systems don't have GPA's), but really at your "Dean's Letter". Interesting thing about this. You're first two years only end up being a paragraph about 4-6 sentences long on the thing that basically notes that you did well in class and whether or not you had to do any remediation, that you showed up for exams, and that you played nice. Then for your 3rd and 4th year, you have a similar paragraph for every clerkship you do! In general, the longs have a longer paragraph than the shorts and pretty much note how you did in each. So, moral of the story, the only real important thing for your first two years is STEP 1 Prep. So, don't stress too much over it (A disclaimer here would probably be that students who get better grades probably do better on the USMLE, but this isn't always true) Some residency's still do things the old fashioned way, and from what I've heard, its the more competetive residency's that like to stick with the old fashioned ways. Other than this small pickpoint, I agree with the above poster.

Just a heads up: many schools that use pass/fail also keep track of your actual grades so they can rank you for the Dean's letter. You definitely shouldn't stress about grades, but I wouldn't just ignore them either. Plus you gotta learn the stuff anyway.
 
WhatUpDoc! said:
Is it true that you have to repeat the whole first year again for failing step I... or are their other criteria that factor into having to do the first year again?
I've never heard of a school making you retake your FIRST year for this. (It may very well be the case at some schools since policies vary so much) Many schools may make you retake the first year if your grades aren't good enough. I think I've heard of schools making you wait for your third year before you pass Step one, and it seems to me that even if they don't make you retake your second year, it would be benificial to you if you are struggling with the material and fail step one.
 
Wednesday said:
Just a heads up: many schools that use pass/fail also keep track of your actual grades so they can rank you for the Dean's letter. You definitely shouldn't stress about grades, but I wouldn't just ignore them either. Plus you gotta learn the stuff anyway.
It may be true that some do rank you according to exams scores, but I would imagine that MOST schools who chose to go with the pass/fail system don't. While reasons may vary, my understanding is that many schools use the system to encourage the students to work together more and compete against each other less. So, keeping track of scores and ranking students would, de facto, defeat the purpose of the pass/fail system.
 
You'd think that. But, it's true that most schools rank. It's a standard part of the med student evaluation letter (dean's letter). I've gone to national med student meetings and a number of students at different schools were surprised in their 3rd and 4th years that they have been ranked. (Some schools will base ranks just on 3rd year grades, or exam scores like you said - but Wednesday's point is valid - don't assume you aren't being ranked unless you know your school's policy for sure).
 
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