Can someone give me a intellegent answer cause I dont get it!

[Doctor246853]

*Two events in one day* First I walk in a patients room who has all sort of preventable problems with her. I checked her blood sugar which was like 800 and the nurse next to me ask "Do you check you sugar at home?" Her reply was " I dont do that stuff I leave my life up to god and he will take care of me?"(I almost literally did a facepalm). I walked next door to put a foley in this lady with terminal cancer. She looks soooo bad and the family decides to put her on life support. I hear them praying for her and praising she is still alive. Ok, I am totally religion sensitive and do not talk about it when patients tell me how god blessed me or whatever, I just smile and listen. But, I dont get it. Why do fully religious people who believe in a beautiful and eternal paridise put their loved one on LIFE SUPPORT keeping them in a world full of sin? Im puzzled, why not let them go "home"? Why take 20 pills a day (or any medicine for that matter) then go to church on sunday praising how you're still living due to some all mighty power. Theres nothing wrong with a little hope or "faith" but I mean come on now people are coming in with terminal complications and are praying then when they die after surgery the doc gets sued. I dont want to offend ANYONE but please give me your answer cause I just dont get it.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you're searching for an "intelligent" explanation you won't find one. All I can say is its only human to cling to life. To the lady with the 800 BSL, she's in denial and wants to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

 

[DaisyBuchanan]

Have you read The God Delusion by Dawkins? He talks about how religious people are frequently the most scared of death. I don't think he actually has a satisfactory answer though

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

i had a VERY similar situation with an appointment this week. she told me her weight lost history blah blah. she was 48, weighed about 230 (formerly 340) and said she hadnt seen a doc in 2.5 years when she started her walk with God... i tried to tell her to go see the doc for at least a physical and she said "God will take care of me. He keeps the world in balance and he keeps me in balance etc etc." I was just like uhhhh what... you're going to die...

 

[DoctorJDO]

*Two events in one day* First I walk in a patients room who has all sort of preventable problems with her. I checked her blood sugar which was like 800 and the nurse next to me ask "Do you check you sugar at home?" Her reply was " I dont do that stuff I leave my life up to god and he will take care of me?"(I almost literally did a facepalm). I walked next door to put a foley in this lady with terminal cancer. She looks soooo bad and the family decides to put her on life support. I hear them praying for her and praising she is still alive. Ok, I am totally religion sensitive and do not talk about it when patients tell me how god blessed me or whatever, I just smile and listen. But, I dont get it. Why do fully religious people who believe in a beautiful and eternal paridise put their loved one on LIFE SUPPORT keeping them in a world full of sin? Im puzzled, why not let them go "home"? Why take 20 pills a day (or any medicine for that matter) then go to church on sunday praising how you're still living due to some all mighty power. Theres nothing wrong with a little hope or "faith" but I mean come on now people are coming in with terminal complications and are praying then when they die after surgery the doc gets sued. I dont want to offend ANYONE but please give me your answer cause I just dont get it.

the old lady with the kool-aid veins was probably reaching out to religion as many people do when they get old/near death. some people cling to hope/religion more than others as a way of control over their lives. you are quite the character, Doctor246853

 

[Doctor246853]

it doesn't have to make sense. some people have a hard time facing reality, and feel better when they redirect blame away from themselves, their god, and their loved ones onto others. the old lady with the kool-aid veins was probably reaching out to religion as many people to when they get old. the family of the cancer patient was thanking god grandma was alive. but then if grandma died...well god couldn't do that! otherwise he wouldn't be all-good and then there's no hope, get it? some people cling to hope/religion more than others. you shouldn't expect everyone to be rational. you are quite the character, Doctor246853

Why am I quite the character? This is a real question. Im just the type of person that questions everything and want to know what makes things tick. The kool-aid vein lady wasnt old (mid 30's).I dont expect everyone to be rational at all but I would expect a full grown intellegent being to see their own contraditions ex.( life support is like fighting god calling you) I even got RIPPED a new one a year ago by this lady pissed that I was working on the holy sabbath. I was thinking Im here taking care of you but she just yelled holding the bible and I stood there taking the verbal beating til a page saved my life. Thanks for the reply though.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why am I quite the character? This is a real question. Im just the type of person that questions everything and want to know what makes things tick. The kool-aid vein lady wasnt old (mid 30's).I dont expect everyone to be rational at all but I would expect a full grown intellegent being to see their own contraditions ex.( life support is like fighting god calling you) I even got RIPPED a new one a year ago by this lady pissed that I was working on the holy sabbath. I was thinking Im here taking care of you but she just yelled holding the bible and I stood there taking the verbal beating til a page saved my life. Thanks for the reply though.

Festinger's Cognitive dissonance theory echo's.

 

[Meerkatology]

even among people from the same religion, not everyone practices it the same way, not everyone interprets it the same way, not everyone practices what they preach

so if you are wondering about how different people from one religion sees/does things differently then that's pretty old news.

 

[Doctor246853]

If you're searching for an "intelligent" explanation you won't find one. All I can say is its only human to cling to life. To the lady with the 800 BSL, she's in denial and wants to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

Dude,(dudett) I totally agree with this but if I believe I will be with my "father" in a white paridise, no pain, no killing, only good people, great pleasures for eternalty and I was on MY deathbed. I would be soooo ready to die I would have a huge grin on my face. I wouldnt want to stay (nor a loved one) in this dangerous place where you can easy have you life taken. IDK, it sounds so tempting that you would think one would get saved and be ready to die anyday with open arms. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Dude,(dudett) I totally agree with this but if I believe I will be with my "father" in a white paridise, no pain, no killing, only good people, great pleasures for eternalty and I was on MY deathbed. I would be soooo ready to die I would have a huge grin on my face. I wouldnt want to stay (nor a loved one) in this dangerous place where you can easy have you life taken. IDK, it sounds so tempting that you would think one would get saved and be ready to die anyday with open arms. Thanks for the reply.

You're looking at something very complex and well processed; the very schema's of human cognition in a very simple way. That is a major cognitive flaw. Remember that there are 2 things which are most powerful in our human lives, they are sex/love and death.

I am a XY btw.

 

[Doctor246853]

Festinger's Cognitive dissonance theory echo's.

So true. Before I started this thread I asked my brother. He said " If anyone dont have faith or believe in god why dont they just jump of a building or something then since they dont believe in death?" W.T.H. Like if you dont believe in a higher magical being you dont believe in realilty. Religion can make people say and do stupid things.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well that's just a tad bit convoluted.

 

[Doctor246853]

You're looking at something very complex and well processed; the very schema's of human cognition in a very simple way. That is a major cognitive flaw. Remember that there are 2 things which are most powerful in our human lives, they are sex/love and death.

I am a XY btw.

OK. I know your very intellegent but can you dumb this down for me. I dont know where your going with this. I mean I know love and death are powerful and human lives but what does that have to do with the things people do/dont do out of faith.( which makes them end up coming to see me at work) Its just like religious hosptials *why* they dont match. I guess im just thinking too hard.

 

[Doc of the Walk]

I mean, I believe in a higher power (I'm Christian) but I'm not going to just eat bacon and sit on my ass all day and just be like "chill Doc, God has got my back". I know at the end of the day he will take care of me, but I have to take care of myself. That lady with the 800 BLS is just stupid and in denial

 

[Musclemass]

For people whose lives suck and whose circumstances are pretty dreadful, religion (just like alcohol or drugs) can provide some hope and escape. There are places and subcultures in the US where extreme religiousity is ingrained in people's day to day lives. People like this talk a different language and have a completely different vision of the world. Any encounter with a person coming from such a background will present a cultural clash if your own personal background is different.

I actually can almost understand people in such circumstances resorting to religion (again, in lieu of alcohol or drugs). The people I can't understand are those who are educated and economically comfortable but similarly attached to religious extremism (of any flavor). Them I really don't get.

 

[DoctorJDO]

Why am I quite the character? This is a real question. Im just the type of person that questions everything and want to know what makes things tick. The kool-aid vein lady wasnt old (mid 30's).I dont expect everyone to be rational at all but I would expect a full grown intellegent being to see their own contraditions ex.( life support is like fighting god calling you) I even got RIPPED a new one a year ago by this lady pissed that I was working on the holy sabbath. I was thinking Im here taking care of you but she just yelled holding the bible and I stood there taking the verbal beating til a page saved my life. Thanks for the reply though.

you know why...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

OK. I know your very intellegent but can you dumb this down for me. I dont know where your going with this. I mean I know love and death are powerful and human lives but what does that have to do with the things people do/dont do out of faith.( which makes them end up coming to see me at work) Its just like religious hosptials *why* they dont match. I guess im just thinking too hard.

What do you think spawned religion? If not those 2 forces? Hell one could say that all action and thought revolve completely around those 2 things.

 

[LizzyM]

Regarding Ms. Koolaid Blood: for her the locus of control in her life is God. This is not uncommon. For others, the locus is themself and for others it is their doctor. For those who want to let God be in control, I think it might be helpful to engage the assistance of a chaplain or member of the clergy who might explain that "God has no hands but your hands." which is to say that patients must work in collaboration with God (take responsibility) to preserve their lives.

Speaking of life, although the "next life" is a goal in several faith traditions, there is also the belief that this life, that all life, is a gift from God and that this gift must be protected and preserved. It is sinful in some faith traditions to neglect one's health or fail to treat a treatable illness (to neglect one's health). Every day, every minute is a gift from God and if people want to praise God for life, (and one would hope, to thank God for your life and your work as a care provider), why should you care?

A physician from any faith tradition or with no faith at all can understand and use the internal logic of a patient's religious belief to motivate the patient to do the right thing and take responsibility for their health and life and to work toward preserving and protecting that life.

As for suing the doctor: even patients of deep religious faith can be the victims of negligence and medical malpractice. Should people of faith let the doctor off the hook?

 

[IvyHopeful20]

In the end patients are going to believe and do lots of things that you think are nuts (like anti-vaccine, homeopathy, etc). You have to do the best you can to explain why they should do this or that, but in the end, you can't save them from themselves.

 

[chen an zu]

Dear Op,

In your story, you control all of the variables involved in the debate that the post invites... As such, you are right -- in the situations you provided. The variables are predetermined by you to make your position correct. Such patients are seemingly absurd in the minds of a scientific thinker such as a doctor.

I'll offer a few alternative situations where I control the variables, however:

-Buddhists, confuscists, stoics, and other misc. south east asian philosophies or religions seem to bring optimism and contentedness to the hospital.

-Studies conclude, time and time again, that religion in the West provides benefits to a patient that make them more peaceful and happy with the way of things as they transition from health to sickness to death (though, as a non-abrahamic follower, I typically question these studies I had to read through in college; I doubt their accuracy; I feel, in my gut, that they must have been rigged studies; But still, studies are studies and they showed up in numerous textbooks of mine).

-There are ignorant people in any group that can make a group at large seem bad. Personally, I'd apply this to your situation and say that religious people are not all terrible patients to have; some can be quite enjoyable.

 

[Dial71]

Just a thought.

Despite all our modern contrivances, life is nasty and brutish. No one is spared in the end. We're young and healthy now, but imagine what you'll feel like in 50-60 years.

How does it feel to die from terminal cancer, with metastases invading every vital organ, literally pressing out the life from you? Or how about suffering from flash edema brought on by CHF and drowning in your own fluids? I doubt that you can imagine the terror that the terminally ill and their families experience.

How can you presume that you'll face your own demise with the same rational approach that you used to judge these patients and their families? Even if you don't agree with a patient's decision, a little empathy goes a long way. Remember, people make decisions for their own reasons, not yours.

As for the diabetic patient, she would probably benefit from an earnest conversation with her physician. If you judge or accuse her, she'll probably just shut-out your criticism. Like Lizzy said, you have to help the patient see the benefits of controling her disease in context of her worldview.

 

[jl lin]

even among people from the same religion, not everyone practices it the same way, not everyone interprets it the same way, not everyone practices what they preach

so if you are wondering about how different people from one religion sees/does things differently then that's pretty old news.

^ This ^
Pardon me, but why do people often feel the need to judge and pan other people's spiritual experiences? Just b/c you haven't experienced certain things, does not mean others haven't.

Whatever it is to them, it's theirs. When we get all bothered by other people's expressions of faith and spirituality, there's a good chance that emotional negativity will come out of us in other ways. A huge part of communication is totally non-verbal.

Live and let live.

 

[Doctor246853]

Regarding Ms. Koolaid Blood: for her the locus of control in her life is God. This is not uncommon. For others, the locus is themself and for others it is their doctor. For those who want to let God be in control, I think it might be helpful to engage the assistance of a chaplain or member of the clergy who might explain that "God has no hands but your hands." which is to say that patients must work in collaboration with God (take responsibility) to preserve their lives.

Speaking of life, although the "next life" is a goal in several faith traditions, there is also the belief that this life, that all life, is a gift from God and that this gift must be protected and preserved. It is sinful in some faith traditions to neglect one's health or fail to treat a treatable illness (to neglect one's health). Every day, every minute is a gift from God and if people want to praise God for life, (and one would hope, to thank God for your life and your work as a care provider), why should you care?

A physician from any faith tradition or with no faith at all can understand and use the internal logic of a patient's religious belief to motivate the patient to do the right thing and take responsibility for their health and life and to work toward preserving and protecting that life.

As for suing the doctor: even patients of deep religious faith can be the victims of negligence and medical malpractice. Should people of faith let the doctor off the hook?

Of course not if its because of negligence. Its not really I care if people praise god or not ( I do believe most humans need something to believe in no matter how bazzar) Im just curious. I get nowhere when I ask any friend or family because they are extremly religious and will conclude every thought with " ok how did(insert unknown human mystery)happen then". I really respect your answer and it makes since.

 

[Doctor246853]

Dear Op,

In your story, you control all of the variables involved in the debate that the post invites... As such, you are right -- in the situations you provided. The variables are predetermined by you to make your position correct. Such patients are seemingly absurd in the minds of a scientific thinker such as a doctor.

I'll offer a few alternative situations where I control the variables, however:

-Buddhists, confuscists, stoics, and other misc. south east asian philosophies or religions seem to bring optimism and contentedness to the hospital.

-Studies conclude, time and time again, that religion in the West provides benefits to a patient that make them more peaceful and happy with the way of things as they transition from health to sickness to death (though, as a non-abrahamic follower, I typically question these studies I had to read through in college; I doubt their accuracy; I feel, in my gut, that they must have been rigged studies; But still, studies are studies and they showed up in numerous textbooks of mine).

-There are ignorant people in any group that can make a group at large seem bad. Personally, I'd apply this to your situation and say that religious people are not all terrible patients to have; some can be quite enjoyable.

Of course! I have meet some of the sweetest people who have hugged me,thanked me and prayed for me. I respect that and bowed my head as they prayed and thanked god for my help. I dont think religious people are bad by a long shot; just think religion can sometime cloud someones judgment.

 

[Doctor246853]

Just a thought.

Despite all our modern contrivances, life is nasty and brutish. No one is spared in the end. We're young and healthy now, but imagine what you'll feel like in 50-60 years.

How does it feel to die from terminal cancer, with metastases invading every vital organ, literally pressing out the life from you? Or how about suffering from flash edema brought on by CHF and drowning in your own fluids? I doubt that you can imagine the terror that the terminally ill and their families experience.

How can you presume that you'll face your own demise with the same rational approach that you used to judge these patients and their families? Even if you don't agree with a patient's decision, a little empathy goes a long way. Remember, people make decisions for their own reasons, not yours.

As for the diabetic patient, she would probably benefit from an earnest conversation with her physician. If you judge or accuse her, she'll probably just shut-out your criticism. Like Lizzy said, you have to help the patient see the benefits of controling her disease in context of her worldview.

Whoa there young tiger. You got it all wrong. Sorry if I ruffled you feathers. Of course I cant imagine what it feels like to drown on my own fluids (pretty dramtic there) that wasnt the point. I didnt judge these patients, I was only telling you exactly what happened. I was sympathic; I didnt just say "Yall are dumb stop praying". If a family member ask me to hold a had as they pray I join out of respect and empathy even though I dont think it is going to make a lick of different on the outcome (beside making you feel "hope" inside). I also know people make decisions for their own reasons and not mine. Like I said I dont know how the family felt but one would think if you go to heaven when you die then you would allow your loved one to pass and not keep them as a vegetable.I dont want them to make decisions for my reasons, what happens to them will not affect me but them and thier relatives. I respect you opinion, I was just curious about a few situations that I encountered.

 

[Silverman780]

*Two events in one day* First I walk in a patients room who has all sort of preventable problems with her. I checked her blood sugar which was like 800 and the nurse next to me ask "Do you check you sugar at home?" Her reply was " I dont do that stuff I leave my life up to god and he will take care of me?"(I almost literally did a facepalm). I walked next door to put a...

Most of the patients with DKA that I deal with with 450+ BGL are not capable of holding intelligent conversations due to AMS and and the occasional coma. Was it really 800?

 

[Doctor246853]

Most of the patients with DKA that I deal with with 450+ BGL are not capable of holding intelligent conversations due to AMS and and the occasional coma. Was it really 800?

yeah it was 800. We had to start her on a insulin drip.

 

[ModerateMouse]

Despite all our modern contrivances, life is nasty and brutish. No one is spared in the end. We're young and healthy now, but imagine what you'll feel like in 50-60 years.

How does it feel to die from terminal cancer, with metastases invading every vital organ, literally pressing out the life from you? Or how about suffering from flash edema brought on by CHF and drowning in your own fluids? I doubt that you can imagine the terror that the terminally ill and their families experience.

I agree.

OP: it is sometimes hard to discuss topics such as "end of life care" rationally. Sure, I agree with you 100% in theory, but I have no idea if I would be able to agree with you when it comes to practice.

Here are some random complicating factors that I thought of just now:
1) you can be religious and believe in a blissful and pain-free heaven, but don't many people have doubts? the family members might think:

'what if we are wrong? what if there really is nothing else after this life? In this case, I just can't let my relative go. I don't want to make this mistake...'

2) what if your relative is actually going to hell and not heaven? you might never see them again... In that case it is good to prolong someone's time on earth

3) what did the patient actually want for him/herself? if s/he preferred their life on earth to ending their life, then I don't see a problem.


I think that this topic is just overly complicated. I can't truly begin to grasp it myself, seeing how I am in my early twenties, and my wrinkles have barely even started to form.

This is why I think doctors are trained all wrong. How can someone who thinks (subconsciously) that they are invincible just because they have never experienced illness truly understand the sick and elderly? People should get their MD's when they are already 50, so that they can identify with the patients better.

Seriously, though, do you ever imagine what it would truly be like to die? I sometimes do, when I lie in bed. Right before falling asleep there is sometimes an instant during which I am still aware of my surroundings, yet when my senses have already begun to shut down. It's a horrible feeling of darkness and oblivion, and it scares me whenever I get to experience it. It's a feeling of ceasing to be able to think and feel.

I only ever feel it very rarely though... But it's quite an experience. I wonder if anyone else ever gets this.

ANYWAY. End of tangent.

 

[SimplyMars9]

Whoa there young tiger. You got it all wrong. Sorry if I ruffled you feathers. Of course I cant imagine what it feels like to drown on my own fluids (pretty dramtic there) that wasnt the point. I didnt judge these patients, I was only telling you exactly what happened. I was sympathic; I didnt just say "Yall are dumb stop praying". If a family member ask me to hold a had as they pray I join out of respect and empathy even though I dont think it is going to make a lick of different on the outcome (beside making you feel "hope" inside). I also know people make decisions for their own reasons and not mine. Like I said I dont know how the family felt but one would think if you go to heaven when you die then you would allow your loved one to pass and not keep them as a vegetable.I dont want them to make decisions for my reasons, what happens to them will not affect me but them and thier relatives. I respect you opinion, I was just curious about a few situations that I encountered.

Sometimes that "hope" inside is what makes the difference between being miserable and being cheerful. The state of mind is also important to the patient's health, just as much as the quality of care.

As for dying and heaven, don't forget most (if not all) people who believe in a heaven also believe in a hell. Besides being afraid of losing the person through death, it's entirely possible that the family is terrified that if they let their loved one die, s/he may not make it to heaven. Just a thought.

 

[Mithril]

But, I dont get it. Why do fully religious people who believe in a beautiful and eternal paridise put their loved one on LIFE SUPPORT keeping them in a world full of sin? Im puzzled, why not let them go "home"? Why take 20 pills a day (or any medicine for that matter) then go to church on sunday praising how you're still living due to some all mighty power.

People are selfish (which isn't necessarily a bad quality all the time), and people don't want to see their loved ones die regardless of whether they believe in the afterlife or God or some other deity. Also, even if someone does believe in an afterlife, that afterlife is not necessarily a Judeo-Christian "heaven" or "hell", but rather a reincarnation where your memories are wiped out (Hinduism, some branches of Islam where memory is wiped out after entering "Jannah"). People want to cherish what they have or what they want to have rather than wait 40, 50, 60 years to kick the bucket in order to be reunited after dying depending on what religion they actually follow.

Theres nothing wrong with a little hope or "faith" but I mean come on now people are coming in with terminal complications and are praying then when they die after surgery the doc gets sued.

Nice generalisation. Atheists who generalise religious folks give the rest of us atheists a bad name. Sure, I don't agree with their position on the metaphysical, but I'm certainly not going to make snide comments about them.

Have you read The God Delusion by Dawkins? He talks about how religious people are frequently the most scared of death. I don't think he actually has a satisfactory answer though

Dawkins is an idiot.

 

[chen an zu]

People are selfish (which isn't necessarily a bad quality all the time), and people don't want to see their loved ones die regardless of whether they believe in the afterlife or God or some other deity. Also, even if someone does believe in an afterlife, that afterlife is not necessarily a Judeo-Christian "heaven" or "hell", but rather a reincarnation where your memories are wiped out (Hinduism, some branches of Islam where memory is wiped out after entering "Jannah"). People want to cherish what they have or what they want to have rather than wait 40, 50, 60 years to kick the bucket in order to be reunited after dying depending on what religion they actually follow.

Nice generalisation. Atheists who generalise religious folks give the rest of us atheists a bad name. Sure, I don't agree with their position on the metaphysical, but I'm certainly not going to make snide comments about them.

Dawkins is an idiot.

I strongly disagree with your comment about Richard Dawkins and the overall tone of your post.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

“Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.” Peter Tosh

 

[NickNaylor]

Have you read The God Delusion by Dawkins? He talks about how religious people are frequently the most scared of death. I don't think he actually has a satisfactory answer though

Dawkins' arguments against religion/for atheism are elementary at best. He really is a dolt, and if anyone is convinced by his arguments then they're just too lazy to think about the topic themselves.

Also, to the OP, people are hypocrites. Welcome to Earth and please enjoy your stay.

 

[Tipp]

It seems like the majority on here believes that faith in God is foolish, or that belief in anything spiritual is ok to give you a sense of hope. I dunno about you all, but I think that believing in any obscure "higher power" for my own benefit is irrelevant and useless. The Bible says that Jesus Christ was God's Son in human form, who came to die so that each of us could be free from sin, death, and disease. It also says that when He was ressurrected and ascended to heaven, He sent a Counselor called the Holy Spirit to anyone who accepted Him to empower them to live bold and holy lives. This is the God that I am interested in. Not a fuzzy feeling that gets my past a bad week, or an awareness of a supposed lack of self where i become a ripple in a pond. I dont mean to demean anyone, I just dont see the point of it all, outside of a real, living God that hears us. What do you guys think about Jesus? From what I know, His love for us is a historical fact, and its not distinct or counter-intuitive to science.

 

[Mithril]

I strongly disagree with your comment about Richard Dawkins and the overall tone of your post.

I somewhat disagree with your disagreement.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It seems like the majority on here believes that faith in God is foolish, or that belief in anything spiritual is ok to give you a sense of hope.

This isn't the case. I think you've got a right to believe in what you want and maybe you've seen something in your life which I havent. So Idk.
However when you come and tell your doctor that gods powers are watching over my blood sugar level, well then I have problems with that.




I dunno about you all, but I think that believing in any obscure "higher power" for my own benefit is irrelevant and useless.
Cognitive dissonance.


The Bible says that Jesus Christ was God's Son in human form, who came to die so that each of us could be free from sin, death, and disease. It also says that when He was ressurrected and ascended to heaven, He sent a Counselor called the Holy Spirit to anyone who accepted Him to empower them to live bold and holy lives. This is the God that I am interested in.
Ok thats great. Other then the cyclic logic I'm alright with this.


Not a fuzzy feeling that gets my past a bad week, or an awareness of a supposed lack of self where i become a ripple in a pond. I dont mean to demean anyone, I just dont see the point of it all, outside of a real, living God that hears us.

Then why believe in a religion which talks completely about this? Or are you just ignorant of your beliefs?
What do you guys think about Jesus? From what I know, His love for us is a historical fact, and its not distinct or counter-intuitive to science.

Alrighty.

Have a nice day.

 

[Tipp]

Have a nice day.

No, the Bible says nothing of fabricating a false sense of warmth for ourselves in times of trouble, that falls more on the people who claim to follow it. Im not really interested in arguing, to be honest. I just thought I would throw a realistic picture of christianity into the discussion becuase it was lacking. You have a good day too.

 

[Doctor246853]

I strongly disagree with your comment about Richard Dawkins and the overall tone of your post.

. I understand someone not totally agreeing with Dawkins but an idiot?? He is FAR from an idiot. I agree with alot of people explanations espeacially Ilikedrugs and ModerateMouse. Mithril, I dont mean to give atheist a bad name and really didnt mean to generalize(at least not on purpose) but this is really what Ive been coming across. Everyone is asking "how would you react if you where on you deathbed? You dont know til you get there". Yeah but Im pretty sure Ill be scared but I wont for a sec believe there is something on "the otherside" I feel when I die it will be the same experience I had before I was born.

 

[Doctor246853]

Dawkins' arguments against religion/for atheism are elementary at best. He really is a dolt, and if anyone is convinced by his arguments then they're just too lazy to think about the topic themselves.

Also, to the OP, people are hypocrites. Welcome to Earth and please enjoy your stay.

Thanks Weezy, I am enjoying my stay and having a great life! MOST not ALL, but most people live their life to the extreme fullest when they know/believe this is the one and only life they have. Its hard to do that when you are living to increase your chances to have a good "after"life.

 

[circulus vitios]

i had a VERY similar situation with an appointment this week. she told me her weight lost history blah blah. she was 48, weighed about 230 (formerly 340) and said she hadnt seen a doc in 2.5 years when she started her walk with God... i tried to tell her to go see the doc for at least a physical and she said "God will take care of me. He keeps the world in balance and he keeps me in balance etc etc." I was just like uhhhh what... you're going to die...

Death, destruction, chaos, filth, and greed. Yup, the world is definitely in balance.

 

[circulus vitios]

I believe that these people are stupid by their own virtue. Religion only compounds this further.

 

[NickNaylor]

No, the Bible says nothing of fabricating a false sense of warmth for ourselves in times of trouble, that falls more on the people who claim to follow it. Im not really interested in arguing, to be honest. I just thought I would throw a realistic picture of christianity into the discussion becuase it was lacking. You have a good day too.

Totally agree. I'm not a Christian, but your characterization of Christianity, serenade, is incorrect and not typical.

 

[NickNaylor]

Thanks Weezy, I am enjoying my stay and having a great life! MOST not ALL, but most people live their life to the extreme fullest when they know/believe this is the one and only life they have. Its hard to do that when you are living to increase your chances to have a good "after"life.

People don't share your same values. Most people (i.e., non-atheists) believe in an afterlife, and they also believe that their actions in their bodily life will affect their soul after death. Just because you don't share the same view doesn't mean believers are wrong, or that they're somehow missing out.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Totally agree. I'm not a Christian, but your characterization of Christianity, serenade, is incorrect and not typical.

I did not mention any view on Christianity, but an opinion of religion in general. But if that is the case then I'll quote the Book of Psalms and John and point out religion is about asking god to help you a long with your life and when you pray to god the result are warmth and reduction of anxiety.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Dawkins' arguments against religion/for atheism are elementary at best. He really is a dolt, and if anyone is convinced by his arguments then they're just too lazy to think about the topic themselves.

Also, to the OP, people are hypocrites. Welcome to Earth and please enjoy your stay.

Because religion doesn't require anything more than elementary arguments to discredit its existence. The arguments from 'intellectual' religious scholars are basically designed to give a false sense of intellectual or logical rigor to religion by shrouding it with complex pseudo-mystical language.

Strip all of that down, and it in the end, it's still comes down to an unprovable and irrational belief in some crazy psychopath in the sky. As you can imagine, it doesn't take a complex argument to counter that.

[Youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVG1EKf5jow&feature=sub]As Hitchens says[/Youtube]

 

[Doctor246853]

People don't share your same values. Most people (i.e., non-atheists) believe in an afterlife, and they also believe that their actions in their bodily life will affect their soul after death. Just because you don't share the same view doesn't mean believers are wrong, or that they're somehow missing out.

Uhh, many are. Im not saying they're wrong for believing in something, but many are limiting their lives because they think someone is watching them with a naughty or nice notebook in his hand. In the begining we did not understand the world so we said it was flat, we did not understand sicknesses so we called sick people cursed or witches, we did not understand our solarsystem so we said the sun revolved around earth. 2010,we dont know how life began so we say "god" said let there be man and poof. As time goes on, science advances, we learn more about life and see what we use to think as "dumb". There is no doubt in my heart that many many many many years from now we will know how life began and in our future classrooms kids will think what many believe now (adam and eve, world created in 7 days) as "dumb".

 

[NickNaylor]

Uhh, many are. Im not saying they're wrong for believing in something, but many are limiting their lives because they think someone is watching them with a naughty or nice notebook in his hand. In the begining we did not understand the world so we said it was flat, we did not understand sicknesses so we called sick people cursed or witches, we did not understand our solarsystem so we said the sun revolved around earth. 2010,we dont know how life began so we say "god" said let there be man and poof. As time goes on, science advances, we learn more about life and see what we use to think as "dumb". There is no doubt in my heart that many many many many years from now we will know how life began and in our future classrooms kids will think what many believe now (adam and eve, world created in 7 days) as "dumb".

This exactly proves my point. You're making the assumption that everyone shares your same values, which isn't the case. What to you might be considered "missing out" might, to others, be no big deal. Getting drunk, screwing girls, cursing, and being a blowhard might be things one person enjoys doing, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't do those things is somehow living a less meaningful or enjoyable life. If you honestly think that it does, you need to get some life experiences.

Also, your attempts at discrediting religion are no more advanced than Dawkins', and atheists and non-atheists alike can agree that he's an idiot and his argument is less than convincing. Try again sry.

Most people do not hold religious beliefs because they attribute everything that we don't know to God. In fact, very few people do. That doesn't mean that sterotypes of fundamentalists reacting against scientific knowledge isn't true, but I go to a conservative, Christian university and I don't know anyone here that believes in God because they don't know how life began or how the universe was made. Trying to attribute faith to that is a big 'ol fail.

 

[gettheleadout]

This exactly proves my point. You're making the assumption that everyone shares your same values, which isn't the case. What to you might be considered "missing out" might, to others, be no big deal. Getting drunk, screwing girls, cursing, and being a blowhard might be things one person enjoys doing, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't do those things is somehow living a less meaningful or enjoyable life. If you honestly think that it does, you need to get some life experiences.

Also, your attempts at discrediting religion are no more advanced than Dawkins', and atheists and non-atheists alike can agree that he's an idiot and his argument is less than convincing. Try again sry.

Most people do not hold religious beliefs because they attribute everything that we don't know to God. In fact, very few people do. That doesn't mean that sterotypes of fundamentalists reacting against scientific knowledge isn't true, but I go to a conservative, Christian university and I don't know anyone here that believes in God because they don't know how life began or how the universe was made. Trying to attribute faith to that is a big 'ol fail.

This is borderline weasel word-ing, because I would bet that the majority of atheists/theists that have been exposed to his arguments don't think he's an outright idiot.

Also, in response to your last paragraph, I think the assertion was that the lack of explanation for things was the cause of religion in general, not faith on an individual level.

 

[NickNaylor]

This is borderline weasel word-ing, because I would bet that the majority of atheists/theists that have been exposed to his arguments don't think he's an outright idiot.

Also, in response to your last paragraph, I think the assertion was that the lack of explanation for things was the cause of religion in general, not faith on an individual level.

Srsly? Does anyone think Dawkins makes convincing or even well-founded arguments? His books are complete trash. The atheist community should be ashamed if Dawkins is the best it can muster.

In response to your second point, religion has moved far beyond that. While man may have once worshiped the sun because it brought light, his comprehension (and I'm using this in a very general sense) of the divine has improved and the role the divine plays in his life has become substantially more all-encompassing and complex.

 

[Doctor246853]

This exactly proves my point. You're making the assumption that everyone shares your same values, which isn't the case. What to you might be considered "missing out" might, to others, be no big deal. Getting drunk, screwing girls, cursing, and being a blowhard might be things one person enjoys doing, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't do those things is somehow living a less meaningful or enjoyable life. If you honestly think that it does, you need to get some life experiences.

Also, your attempts at discrediting religion are no more advanced than Dawkins', and atheists and non-atheists alike can agree that he's an idiot and his argument is less than convincing. Try again sry.

Most people do not hold religious beliefs because they attribute everything that we don't know to God. In fact, very few people do. That doesn't mean that sterotypes of fundamentalists reacting against scientific knowledge isn't true, but I go to a conservative, Christian university and I don't know anyone here that believes in God because they don't know how life began or how the universe was made. Trying to attribute faith to that is a big 'ol fail.

Uhh thats not what I meant by missing out Fail? Sure buddy.