can you realistically earn big $$$ as a psychiatrist?

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prominence

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is it unheard of to earn $350,000+ per year as a psychiatrist without having to work 60+ hrs a week?

if the answer is yes, what type of subspecialty/practice set-up could generate such an income?

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I know of quite a few psychiatrists making at least this amount.

Setup usually includes a "boutique" type practice...no medicaid/medicare, large initial eval fees, and reinvestment of money, often with psychologists working under them. Office space is provided for them, and you secure a good portion of their billable income. Most stay out of large hospital commitments, which usually pays lower and takes more hours out of the week.

Child and forensics seem to have no problem making this at <60 hours a week, although of course you'll have to put in a large initial investment.

I've often wondered why more psychiatrists don't follow this type of practice setup. The answers I hear are that many simply want a steady salary, without having to worry about keeping up with billing, overhead, and the like.
 
Anasazi23 said:
I know of quite a few psychiatrists making at least this amount.
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I've often wondered why more psychiatrists don't follow this type of practice setup. The answers I hear are that many simply want a steady salary, without having to worry about keeping up with billing, overhead, and the like.

I think it really is because if you're running this kind of practice you end up becoming more of an independent business operator/entrepeneur than a clinician.
 
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OldPsychDoc said:
I think it really is because if you're running this kind of practice you end up becoming more of an independent business operator/entrepeneur than a clinician.
Good point. Then again, sometimes I think I'd rather go that route than deal with hospital politics and their associated aggravations all day. Some days the hospital with their forced forms, reviews, and 7th circle of hell administrative loopholes gets on my last nerve.
 
I think the difficulty lies with the start-up. Most people are already pretty heavily indebted by the time they finish residency and are eager to get a source of steady guaranteed income. Although it sounds ideal to put up a shingle and start up a boutique practice (meaning no managed care patients, all out of pocket GOOD payors, or some sort of "unlimited" fee for service insurance...does that even exist anymore?), there are some start up costs involved, the practice will take time to build up (you definitely won't be making the big bucks in the first year or so)...so, practically speaking unless you've got someone to actually financially support you or unless you're prepared to go even deeper into debt, at least for the first year or so...it's realistically pretty hard...Also, if you want eschew managed care contracts altogether and want to really start making any $, you've got to be careful to set up your practice in an area where there is a fairly steady "pool" of patients who need you but who are also able to pay their bills (including their fees to you)...well...frankly speaking...these days...in spite of the extraordinary demand for access to competent psychiatric care, how many people do you know who can just plunk out of pocket on a regular basis the necessary fees that would enable you to build up your practice? You would have to probably start out in a fairly affluent suburban area...but usually those are covered already by pre-existent psychiatric practices, with whom you will be frankly competing for those "paying patients".

I am not saying it is not doable...it is actually quite possible, especially in Child, where the demand is through the roof...but you've got to be prepared to take some risk and not make any "steady" money for the first 6-12 mo. or so (or even more maybe) until you DO build up a practice, a steady stream of referrals, advertise yourself as being available, stuff like that. In the meantime, you've still got to pay your office rent and other overhead costs. Admittedly, in psych. overhead is fairly low, and you could go EMR from day one. And if you forego managed care contracts, you won't even have to worry about too much billing paperwork. It's a matter of "comfort" with the initial necessary risk I think. Some people are more "ready" than others to assume it. I just think it's kind of hard if you are fresh out of residency. I think it's harder maybe than it was maybe 15-20 years ago.

I also don't see a lot of "role models". Most of my colleagues are still in the stage of "daydreaming" about eventually starting or building up a private practice, but I don't know too many who have graduated in the last 4-5 years or so who's actually gone out and went totally "solo private" (especially non-managed care type boutique/cash practices!) from day 1 after their residency. Some of our residency graduates are actually planning to work as employees only part-time or as independent contractors for a while while trying to build up a private practice (and still be able to pay their bills!), although I think most do plan to get on managed care insurance panels; but increasingly more are going for the steady paycheck.

P.S. Just based on what I've seen around in older, more established practices, it also seems to help a lot to have a supportive spouse! Quite a few "private practice" people, it seems, had their wives help them manage the office when they started out! But this is more anecdotal...like the lore from the "mom and pop" store/business days!
 
I have this recurring bad dream that I'll finally graduate residency, and have a private practice with no patients. I imagine myself sitting in an empty office, surfing the internet or some other useless activity in between the one or two patients I'll see that day.

Even though residents in other fields and attendings say they'll refer to me already, I still ask the question...what is the best way to generate referrals? Some people say that they generate them from the hospital in which they work, but generally speaking, your desired "boutique" clientelle aren't coming from inpatient hospital stays (at least where I work.) Although, I've seen exceptions to this too.

I can't say I'm too worried, though. All the psychiatrists I know are consistently turning away private patients here. I can only assume that I'll be in a similar situation someday, although it may take a while to get there, as PsychMD stated.

How did you folks generally generate your referrals (if you do private work)?
 
Anasazi23 said:
I have this recurring bad dream that I'll finally graduate residency, and have a private practice with no patients. I imagine myself sitting in an empty office, surfing the internet or some other useless activity in between the one or two patients I'll see that day.

Even though residents in other fields and attendings say they'll refer to me already, I still ask the question...what is the best way to generate referrals? Some people say that they generate them from the hospital in which they work, but generally speaking, your desired "boutique" clientelle aren't coming from inpatient hospital stays (at least where I work.) Although, I've seen exceptions to this too.

I can't say I'm too worried, though. All the psychiatrists I know are consistently turning away private patients here. I can only assume that I'll be in a similar situation someday, although it may take a while to get there, as PsychMD stated.

How did you folks generally generate your referrals (if you do private work)?

I'm a LCSW who joined a group practice within the last year, and am responsible for my own billing, marketing, etc. This keeps our overhead very very low at the moment. I left my FT job in order to do the practice and take my post-bacc classes to go the med school route.

How to generate referrals? Network to find a few therapists you like. The 5 therapists in our group are always on the lookout for a psychiatrist we can partner with and send our patients to- in exchange (for those doctors who do primarily med management) for us taking their patients and quickly. There are 2 docs in particular who are fresh out of residency who have been great about working with us- very therapy-friendly. We've taken them each out to dinner to introduce ourselves and our practices so that they're more comfortable referring, and for one of them- I'd say about 1/3 of my patients have been referred by her or to her. Since we're trying to build a positive relationship with these doctors, they have been promised they will get our "good" referrals- those who are motivated, compliant with appointments, etc.- ie, likely to show up and take their meds.

I'd also start building relationships with PCPs. So many of them are quick to refer out for psych med management, and most of them don't know who to refer to. Again- networking, marketing, sending "cold-call" letters.

Find out the reputations of the insurance companies- there are some that are easy to work with, pay you well, pay you quickly, etc., and then there are those which don't do some or any of those things. Your attendings will know which are which, and should be able to tell you the ones that are worth working with. Having been a case manager for one of them, I can tell you that we did see some newer psychiatrists moving from hospital-based practices to private and dumping off the insurance panels to do private pay only. Most of them were child/adol specialists, since that's where the serious demand is, at least in my city.

The referrals are there, it's all about good networking!
 
jlw9698 said:
I'm a LCSW who joined a group practice within the last year, and am responsible for my own billing, marketing, etc. This keeps our overhead very very low at the moment. I left my FT job in order to do the practice and take my post-bacc classes to go the med school route.

How to generate referrals? Network to find a few therapists you like. The 5 therapists in our group are always on the lookout for a psychiatrist we can partner with and send our patients to- in exchange (for those doctors who do primarily med management) for us taking their patients and quickly. There are 2 docs in particular who are fresh out of residency who have been great about working with us- very therapy-friendly. We've taken them each out to dinner to introduce ourselves and our practices so that they're more comfortable referring, and for one of them- I'd say about 1/3 of my patients have been referred by her or to her. Since we're trying to build a positive relationship with these doctors, they have been promised they will get our "good" referrals- those who are motivated, compliant with appointments, etc.- ie, likely to show up and take their meds.

I'd also start building relationships with PCPs. So many of them are quick to refer out for psych med management, and most of them don't know who to refer to. Again- networking, marketing, sending "cold-call" letters.

Find out the reputations of the insurance companies- there are some that are easy to work with, pay you well, pay you quickly, etc., and then there are those which don't do some or any of those things. Your attendings will know which are which, and should be able to tell you the ones that are worth working with. Having been a case manager for one of them, I can tell you that we did see some newer psychiatrists moving from hospital-based practices to private and dumping off the insurance panels to do private pay only. Most of them were child/adol specialists, since that's where the serious demand is, at least in my city.

The referrals are there, it's all about good networking!


I am extremely interested into going into psychiatry and I keep hearing so much about child/adol psychiatry in high demand. Why is it in such demand, and why would that rout pay more? If I would decide to specialize in that, would that mean more residency? Would I have to be in a rather large city to see the benifits from specializing in that? As of now I would do general psychiatry, but I do hold an interest in the child/adol aspect. I just don't want to be all child/adol or all adult. That's just how I feel now but I'm not even in med school yet. I know I have to be or should be board certified in both to practice both, but If child/adol is in such high demand, and it pays good, I would really like to look into it. Not that money is my motivating factor, I want to love or at least like my job, but it would be nice to make a lot of $$$$. And I would love to work with children. I'm not sure, as of yet, if I could handle the stress of dealing with the serious heart breaking issues that come up with the job. I mean how do you really know? I have to imagine that it's somewhat easier to deal whith a schizophrenic or bipolar adult (not like that would be easy) than a child w/ the same, or one that has conduct disorder that I may treat, to only end up a w/ anti-social personality disorder (to put it nicely) as an adult. As far as medicine goes, I have no interest in specializing in anything other than psychiaty (although I can't wait to learn it and experiment in it), however, I am still torn as to what road to take with it. How much longer would it take if I decided to become board certified in both general and child/adol? That's what I think I would be better off doing, and If it's in such high deman and the money is that much better, I think it's worth the extra time. What do ya all think???
 
pschmom1 said:
I am extremely interested into going into psychiatry and I keep hearing so much about child/adol psychiatry in high demand. Why is it in such demand, and why would that rout pay more? If I would decide to specialize in that, would that mean more residency? Would I have to be in a rather large city to see the benifits from specializing in that? As of now I would do general psychiatry, but I do hold an interest in the child/adol aspect. I just don't want to be all child/adol or all adult. That's just how I feel now but I'm not even in med school yet. I know I have to be or should be board certified in both to practice both, but If child/adol is in such high demand, and it pays good, I would really like to look into it. Not that money is my motivating factor, I want to love or at least like my job, but it would be nice to make a lot of $$$$. And I would love to work with children. I'm not sure, as of yet, if I could handle the stress of dealing with the serious heart breaking issues that come up with the job. I mean how do you really know? I have to imagine that it's somewhat easier to deal whith a schizophrenic or bipolar adult (not like that would be easy) than a child w/ the same, or one that has conduct disorder that I may treat, to only end up a w/ anti-social personality disorder (to put it nicely) as an adult. As far as medicine goes, I have no interest in specializing in anything other than psychiaty (although I can't wait to learn it and experiment in it), however, I am still torn as to what road to take with it. How much longer would it take if I decided to become board certified in both general and child/adol? That's what I think I would be better off doing, and If it's in such high deman and the money is that much better, I think it's worth the extra time. What do ya all think???

Child is 1 or 2 years of extra training after an adult residency, depending on whether you enter the fellowship after your 3rd residency year or finish the full general residency. Whether it's worth it depends on whether you can stand it or not.

I would really suggest doing a child psych elective when you get to 4th year med school. I did when I was a med student and I learned 2 things: 1) I'm not as bad a parent as I sometimes think; and 2) I really don't want to do child psych. In child psych you really end up having to treat the families. Often the child is the "designated patient" in an utterly screwed up family where you just want to take the whole bunch of mothers, step fathers, step-step-grandmothers, etc., etc. and admit them all. The cute and cuddly depressed and anxious kids in intact families are few and far between...

So anyway, that's why child psychiatrists are in demand, and why they get paid more than I do.
 
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OldPsychDoc said:
Child is 1 or 2 years of extra training after an adult residency, depending on whether you enter the fellowship after your 3rd residency year or finish the full general residency. Whether it's worth it depends on whether you can stand it or not.

I would really suggest doing a child psych elective when you get to 4th year med school. I did when I was a med student and I learned 2 things: 1) I'm not as bad a parent as I sometimes think; and 2) I really don't want to do child psych. In child psych you really end up having to treat the families. Often the child is the "designated patient" in an utterly screwed up family where you just want to take the whole bunch of mothers, step fathers, step-step-grandmothers, etc., etc. and admit them all. The cute and cuddly depressed and anxious kids in intact families are few and far between...

So anyway, that's why child psychiatrists are in demand, and why they get paid more than I do.

Well said, OldPsychDoc. In my experience, a lot of families bring in their child with the attitude "fix her". Well, in many cases it took the families 14 years to break her, so it's going to take a while for the treatment team to provide help, and it WILL require their assistance. At least in most adult patients that I've seen, minus the court-ordered and a few random others, they come b/c of some internal motivation for change. (Insight to make the changes may be a different story.)

It's amazing how quickly some parent/guardians will request a new doctor if they think the current one even hinted that their parenting skills (or lack thereof) may have played a role in the development of the child's mental health/behavioral issues.
 
I have also found child psych. to be much more stressful than either adult or geropsych. I actually think that, overall, given the current conditions, when it comes to child psych., the stress might be greater than the perceived benefits of the $ differential, and also, in general, the stress/gratification ratio tends to be >1. Obviously, this is a personal point of view. I do know a couple of child psych. enthusiasts, but all in all they seem pretty rare birds to me. First of all, there's not too many to start with, then not all child fellowship trained docs end up doing exclusively child psych. Many of the ones I know sort of ended up sticking close to academic centers where they got involved in more teaching/research activities>direct clinical practice. When it comes to direct clinical practice, I also think that the overall current conditions with lack of time, bureaucratic intrusiveness, managed care, paucity and fragmentation/variability of community supportive resources (as pertaining to child psych.), etc....are generally perceived as DEFINITE impediments to developing an "optimal" ("ideal") child psych. practice, even possibly to a greater degree than it would be for adults, for example. Of course, for someone who is very interested and motivated in this particular field, there are ways to make it work...it's just that I kind of perceive that the hassle and burnout aspects might be fairly high...again, especially given the current prevailing conditions.

I also think there is a crop of "older generation" colleagues who are in fact pediatricians by training and have acquired additional behavioral peds training/experience, and subsequently developed behavioral pediatrics practices (that was sort of before child psych. fellowships took off) and who are still around, in various private practices here and there. They have a lot of experience, especially when it comes to clinical and private practice matters, and might be tapped upon for additional mentorship as well. Problem is...they are pretty rare birds too! Many work with dually diagnosed developmentally delayed kids too. It takes a lot of expertise/experience to work with DD kids.
 
I definately have a lot of time to look into it. I guess once Im in the 3rd or 4th year of med school I'll have some insight as to what Im cut out for, what I can handle, and what I want to do. However, I do know that I want to do psychotherapy and I hear that a lot of pschiatrists don't do a whole lot of it. I hear that it's a $$ thing. Is that the case? Is it a big reduction in salary to do a lot of therapy? Thanks for all of the replys. :)
 
If you are in private practice and consider accepting insured patients, managed care does not typically "like" to reimburse psychiatrists for psychotherapy; they would much prefer to reimburse the lower rates requested by non-MD therapists. Plus they may also restrict the nr. of covered of office visits that a particular pt. may have with a psych.-MD (like limit it for example to 6-12 visits per year.) This will not really be conducive to some types of psychotherapy. It depends a lot of the original insurance coverage. Some current insurances really have fairly limited "mental health" benefits.

If you are a salaried employee, you do not have much say re. how many patients you are supposed to see per day or re. your daily work structure, or your particular job description; you are pretty much operating on the employer's needs framework.

Ideally, a psychiatrist in private practice will eventually attempt to limit over time the hassles of having to deal with various managed-care types of insurances, or insurances with extraordinarily restrictive benefits. Most psychiatrists who are in private practice will also be interested actually to extend a patient base who will be able to either pay out of pocket or have some form of fee-for-service insurance (if any still exist at this time, I have no clue!). Then, one has more latitude and autonomy in regards to structuring the practice, e.g. having some pts. for certain types of therapies, other pts. for med checks plus psychotherapies, others for med checks alone. This type of payor mix and structure does NOT get built overnight. It is true, there is still great demand for competent psychiatric care in many many areas, however, realistically, when it comes to solo, one may find oneself geographically limited to a certain extent. Most affluent areas will have a glut of psychiatrists competing against one another for a good payor mix, but also a better payor mix and rapid practice build-up opportunities, other areas may be somewhere in the middle, others will be too poor to actually be able to support a new psychiatrist's full practice. I am trying to talk about it as objectively as possible, the way I see it...when it comes to "business issues". But the demand is STILL there, and is still pretty insatiable at this point in time. So theoretically, one can develop a successful private practice in most areas, with pretty good latitude re. practice structuring and autonomy regarding various personal interests. But it is NOT easy, and you really need to be very realistic as well. This may be actually more complicated than just hanging up a shingle! Some persons are more attuned to (and interested in) the business isues than others. I would venture to speculate that for many psychiatrists, sort of by nature, business interests are not always a big priority (focus of main interest, aptitude, or talent) in their lives, although of course if you want to survive in private practice, especially solo, and especially build it up yourself from scratch (which ensures maximum of autonomy and flexibility), you really need to learn about it! Typically, overhead costs will also be lower if you have an optimal payor mix. (Overhead costs are higher with a higher managed care proportion of pts., just because of the hassle of what one has to do and how much time one needs to put in, or additional help to hire, just for getting reimbursed by them!)

Another current possible scenario is some "behavioral health groups" or agencies who have been originated by non-MD's originally (like a group of LCSW's or PhD's/Psyd's), or by community agencies (like in some form of CMHC's), but who really would like to have a couple of psych-MD's on board...mostly for the meds. It may be lucrative. Some psychMD's like that. Some don't (mostly because very few psych. MD's like to see themselves used as "one trick ponies", and realistically, most psychiatrists are NOT such "ponies"...see below!).

There are also some multiple psychMD groups/partnerships around too (some are looser affiliations mostly for call coverage and maybe some expense-sharing, like billing services), some may be more structured, like a couple of "older" original owners/partners, who may bring a junior associate (eventual partner?) on board, but these days they could just as well be more interested in bringing in a NP rather than an MD, because MD's are much too expensive and hi-maintenance (at least this is the "folklore"!), relative to the business benefits of adding a partner. Of course, if it's your father and your uncle bringing you into the partnership, it's a different situation! Also, it's different if it's a private "faculty group practice" (affiliated with an academic setting).

Now, of course, ideally, a competent and comprehensively-trained psychiatrist in full solo private practice will not only take care to develop an optimal payor mix, but will also be aware of (and trained in) the various types of psychotherapies that may be applied and may be helpful in certain cases. Most psychiatrists who are currently practicing these days are not really "one trick ponies", meaning they are well aware of the definitions and applicability of various types of psychotherapies, and will have already received training (during residency), or at least exposure to several types of such therapies, and will have a good understanding of what "psychotherapy" really means (in its various forms), and how it may be usefully applied in various cases. Most psychiatrists will be able, via the initial comprehensive psychiatric evaluation to formulate some sort of tx. plan for their pt. that may include some types of psychotherapies that the psychiatrist himself/herself will conduct (in addition to med. management, or even w/out the med. management, since not everybody who seeks out a psychiatrist will absolutely need meds), or for which the pt. will be referred to another party. Not all patients who present to a psychiatrist's office will necessarily be interested or motivated for (or even benefit from) certain types of psychotherapy, or some pts. may require and benefit from certain types of psychotherapy, but not other types. Some will require and/or be interested in short-term therapies, others in longer-term therapies. Some pts. may only require to be seen a couple of times, mostly for a consultative-type specialized input regarding one specific issue, and will then not even need to see a psychiatrist anymore, long-term afterwards. I do not think I know one single psychiatrist out there these days that opens a practice with the goal in mind: "this will be a cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy practice", or this will be a short-term (brief) psychodynamic psychotherapy practice" (and nothing else), or this will exclusively be an "interpersonal therapy practice". Sure, some psychiatrists are more interested in and attuned to and trained in certain types of psychotherapies, vs. others. "Older" psychiatrists may have been also trained to be psychoanalysts, but I doubt that there are too many who are training in psychoanalysis these days, with the stated goal to open up an exclusive psychoanalytic practice. It is important for anyone looking into residency traininig to assess the breadth and depth of the psychotherapy training during residency, to have access to appropriate psychotherapy supervision during residency training, to inform oneself regarding the various types of psychotherapies, and to continually LEARN and clarify for themselves, as they progress in their training, what the originally rather fuzzy notion of "therapy" really means. (Of course, these days, finally ACGME plus Psych. people involved in training and education are doing a much better job regarding standardizing minimum necessary "psychotherapy competencies" in a broader fashion, accross the board, for most of all accredited psych. residency programs.)

In the real world, most psychiatrists in private practice these days maintain a variety of focus of interest regarding their daily activities or how they structure their practice. They may do combinations of outpt./inpt. or outpt./consultation work (meaning consultation not just for hospitalized patients, but also various agencies or organizations). It's an ongoing flexible thing. It's not static, by any means! A cynical person may even see it as "chasing the buck", but there's nothing wrong with chasing the buck if you are able to develop a good stream of referrals, maintain good relationships with colleagues and other community agencies, and continually strive to improve your practice structure in order to continue pursuing your original interests, and making $ at the same time, AND delivering competent highly specialized care at the same time! This would be the "ideal" form of solo practice. It IS an "ideal", of course. Psychiatrists have to pay their med school loans and ongoing bills too. So these days, you will see that many will continue to opt for employment, (at least part-time) rather than attempting to develop a full-time solo, from total scratch, at least at first, post-residency. The trick with being happily employed, I guess, is to KNOW who your employer is, and what exactly are they hiring you for (job description!). If the job description sounds overly narrow or, OTOH, too fuzzily comprehensive (like "we need a psychiatrist to do "everything"...outpt/inpts/consults/partial")...I would say...RUN! (or at least take it part-time rather than full-time!).

And, of course, there is academia/research too. (Including the possibility to take part in a faculty group private practice as well, for the ones so inclined!)

Sorry for the long post. I tried my best to present my perception about the current "practical state of things", in an as clear and demystified way as possible.
 
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PsychMD-

Thanks for posting, your post was very informative.

I am an MSIV IMG, I attended SMU and am now in Atlanta, GA completing my last two electives. I am going to be applying to psychiatry programs come September.

After I graduate from residency, I plan on joining a group practice OR working for a VA hospital at least for a while but ultimately I want to open my own small practice (with maybe a partner later).

In your opinion, what is the minimum $ one can attain on this career path? My personal goal (while we are on the money subject) is to earn $200,000/yr, maybe not my first few years but ultimately this is where I'd like to end up. Of course more is good, too. :)

-Solideliquid
 
I have absolutely no clue what is the minimum (I can envision, in a horror type scenario, it could actually be even 0...!) earning potential for a psychiatrist at this time, much less what might happen 4-5-10 years down the road, or in certain regions vs. other regions! There are the mgma surveys http://www.mgma.com/surveys/index.cfm which can give you an idea of the average earnings for psychiatrists in various areas of the country.

In general, I don't think that the VA offers top of the range salaries. If you plan to join a group right out of residency, you can either be employed (straight salary) by the group, or be offered to earn a share of the billings or of the revenue; there might be some additional productivity bonuses. It depends what kind of group that is, or whatever it is that that group is actually looking for. You won't be making lots of $ for the group at first, because it takes time to get on whatever insurance panels that that group is contracting with (some up to 6 months). Plus there will be additional initial expenses for that group if you also expect certain benefits, in addition to the $ that you will eventually earn.
 
If one is in private practice, and doing all of one's own billing/etc - then how much is malpractice insurance? Any ideas?

I've heard pts complain that psychiatrists "make so much money" - $120/hr - but, if you have to pay rent for the office, utilities, pager/phone/computer/filing, malpractice insurance, own health insurance, etc... What does that really come out to, once you pay for all that stuff? I mean... I just have no concept of how much it costs to set up one's own practice. Any ideas of where I can get such info?

Thanks,
psych2b
 
I have recently found this relatively new book from APPI:

Entering Private Practice
A Handbook for Psychiatrists

http://www.appi.org/book.cfm?id=62141

Also, some residency training programs, organize some brief seminars (often it helps if the residents themselves request this ahead of time) in the terminal year about practical matters regarding private practice set-ups.

Ideally, my most educated guess is that one should probably aim to attempt to NET somewhere around $ 100/hour (meaning that the gross should be somewhat higher to account for the overhead and associated expenses), but, again, I have no clue about exact numbers, or how long it may take to actually be able to net this amount, (or more) on a regular basis. One has to account for the potential no shows, one has to account for a balance of initial evaluations (which are reimbursed at a higher rate) and follow-up med checks (and how many per hour). I guess one should realistically decide right from the start if they will accept Medicare patients or not, and which insurance panels one wants to deal with. I think that the major upfront costs will definitely be the office rent/utilities, the computer/EMR, and the liability insurance. The costs for rent and insurance are extraordinarily variable in various areas of the country! For computer/EMR, it depends on how savvy you are! (Otherwise you might have to hire some practice consultants...and they will definitely cost you MUCHO big bucks too!). For billing, you can do in-house, or outsource. If you outsource, I understand they may take 6-8% of revenue. But if you are savvy with the computer/EMR, you might just as well do it yourself! (You will, of course, spend time on this. Some people prefer not to spend their time with administrative tasks and rather spend that time seeing additional patients! Hence they might hire help or outsource billing, or have their spouse be their office manager, salaried or not...I have no clue what is the etiquette, OR the possible legalities involved, when it comes to "using" your spouse to help manage your office!). In psychiatry though, the overhead costs are not that big compared to all other specialties. These days though...it is mostly the fact that one has to deal with managed care that raises the overhead the most!

Ultimately, it depends on how risk adverse you are, and it definitely depends on having some cash to financially survive through the first 6 months, or, just to be on the safe side, maybe the first year, until your practice finally takes off and you can draw some conclusions at the end of year 1! I strongly doubt that a fresh new solo doc will be able to net that ideal $ 100/hour in a consistent manner in that first year in practice. My guesstimate is that it might be closer to probably $50-60/hour, and more towards the end of that first year rather than right from the start. I have heard lots of people say that the first 6 months are sort of almost 0 income. But then it should continue to grow.

I have no clue about more details, since I am in the process of "studying" this process myself at this time, and the more I know, the more I realize that I must learn some MORE stuff before I even try to bite the bullet of solo practice! I know I will eventually probably do it, but it will not realistically happen for a couple of years yet, in my case, mostly because I really want to do it the "old fashioned way", on my own, without having to depend on outside "consultants" or some form of "income-guarrantees" from any entity, and without having to spend oodles of cash upfront! What I would personally REALLY want to avoid at all costs would be to indebt myself further (like take some sort of practice set-up loan of some sort), hoping to recuperate it later! Personally, I feel this would be a mistake. But then, I am pretty risk adverse, and HATE being in debt.

The "easiest" and most "natural way", as I have heard several residents talk about this, still seems to be to work part-time as an independent contractor or part-time employee for some sort of local community clinic or hospital, have enough cash to pay your bills and the "private" office rent, and then start building up your private practice, in your free hours, and as the numbers grow, you would cut back on the indep. contracting gigs. It would really probably be better to have at least some the med school loan debt paid off, rather than face a monster of debt from day 1 plus the insecurity of not knowing how the private practice will work out. Again, I have no clue about a lot of details, but I sincerely never personally met anyone just "hang up a shingle" and go full-time solo from day 1 after finishing residency training. I am not saying that it can't be done, I am actually sure that some people out there are actually planning it from their 4th year already, but I don't personally know those guys or gals!
 
I don't think the question should be CAN you earn big bucks in psychiatry I think the question should be more along the lines of: WHY do you want to earn big bucks as a psychiatrist?

First off I understand that everyone wants to earn a decent living, myself included. But if that is the primary concern you're best advised going into a different profession. This forum seems to take a very "tell it like it is" approach so I'm assuming none of you will be offended by my directness.

This seems way too obvious of me here but I think it needs to be said --the primary concern should be helping the patient. I mean after all they ARE the ones paying your salary. I think it's important to remember that. If your main motivation is $money$ and not a genuine desire to help you're more likely to end up harming your patients rather than helping them.

As well, we all know money doesn't make someone happy. What's more likely to make someone happy is the feeling that they are making a positive difference in the world. What makes someone happy is going home at the end of the day with his or her conscience in tact as opposed to a big fat wad of bills in his or her pocket.

I just had to give my honest opinion, take it or leave it.
 
erc80-

This is the reason no one talks about salaries and their financial information. The minute someone brings up money people like you spring up all over the place playing the "you're all about the money" card. This is not the case, and its a shame no one wants to talk finance, because most medical students do not know what they are worth coming out of medical school. Most residents dont know what they are worth coming out of residency, and they get screwed into a fixed salary working way too many hours.

This is my point- people should feel more comfortable discussing their financial situation! We dont need people like you popping up and pointing fingers, saying all we care about is money. The fact is that EVERYONE should be concerned with money on some level, after all we all have to eat dont we, we all have to pay rent dont we?!
 
Sorry, Im with erc80 on this.
Discussing money is fine, of course! We all have debt and we all want to be able to take care of our families and what not. But, the question posed was about how to make BIG money as a psychiatrist. Who the heck needs 350,000/year? That is ridiculous. I mean, you can want that much money if you want, but I would never decide yay or nay on a profession based on whether I can make 350,000 at it. What a weird way to look at life. Sorry, but that's my humble opinion. Everyone knows that doctors do just fine, all doctors. Lets not forget that the average income in this country is much, much less than any of us will ever make. Even the family doc in a small town makes more than 50K per year, which is a lot of money!
 
Solideliquid said:
The fact is that EVERYONE should be concerned with money on some level, after all we all have to eat dont we, we all have to pay rent dont we?!

That's what I said in my post about everyone wanting to earn a decent living, myself included. No one wants to be poor. There is a difference between earning a decent living and earning "big $$$".

To pay your rent and eat you don't need to earn 350,000$/year. I am reminded of the ever-increasing gap between the rich and the poor in North America. It's a huge problem. When I see a post with the title: "can you realisitically earn big $$$ as a psychiatrist" my interest is piqued. Maybe there is a reason that people like me pop up in threads with such a title.

I mean no one is "worth" more than someone else. Doctors aren't "worth" more than teachers and teachers aren't "worth" more than cashiers. Salary does not equal worth. I think sometimes people forget this. Too often, unfortunately, in North American society success is measured in salary, in the stuff we have (cars, house) etc.
 
Can someone please tell me why it is "wrong" to earn $350k (or whatever the market will bear for your services) per year?

Just because you do well, does not mean that someone else isn't.

Capitalism is not a zero-sum game.

If someone wants to go into medicine for strictly altruistic reasons, great. But, that doesn't mean that everyone is obligated to.
 
Miklos,

Theoretically, perhaps Capitalism need not be a zero sum game. However, in practice it is just that. In the United States which does not have a strong social democratic tradition the poor and working class are poorer than anywhere else in the Industrial World. A large part of any income at the higher levels comes from the direct exploitation of the poor and working class. Take for example, the absolutely raw exploitation of immigrants both legal and illegal that is exercised by wealthy professionals in such cities as Washington and New York. Not to mention the rest of the country where the exploitation simply takes a different form. It's virtually impossible in an American city to find a highly paid professional whose domestic work is not carried out by illegal immigrants. Even the President's nominee to head Homeland Security was exploiting illegal immigrants as domestic help. The whole of America is virtually a zero sum game.

Morally it can be said that America's doctors are the zero in the zero sum.
 
P.S. I am aware I will be banned for my above post. I've noticed SDN has a tendency to ban anyone who dares to question the morals/way of life of its members.
 
Do you hate america? Sure there is exploitation, but compare the US to the rest of the world. People are DYING in Africa, need I say more?

There is nothing wrong with doing your job as a physician and being compensated for it, even if you are compensated 350k. Are you saying those of us that will go on to make that kind of money should be punished?

Monicak- If you ever feel like you are making too much money, send the excess to me, I'll PM you my address.
 
Hey,
I wasnt saying docs shouldnt make money. And personally, I think America is the greatest country on earth. And I think capitalism is the best system we have. I was just pointing out that it seemed weird to start a post asking if one could make 350K a year working a certain number of hours per week. It just seemed weird to apparently have this "goal," especially one that is so high. And, as much as I defend doctors, I do think we tend to whine a bit about money, when we do pretty damn well for ourselves. I think things can get a little out of perspective when we only hang out with people making 100K + per year. I know a lot of folks who chose their specialty based on the money they will make, and they dont all seem happy. I also have parents who were both refugees and very poor, so thats where some of my reaction came from.

So, sorry if I offended. Ill be happy to make some money when Im done with all this!
Peace y'all,
monicak

Solideliquid said:
Do you hate america? Sure there is exploitation, but compare the US to the rest of the world. People are DYING in Africa, need I say more?

There is nothing wrong with doing your job as a physician and being compensated for it, even if you are compensated 350k. Are you saying those of us that will go on to make that kind of money should be punished?

Monicak- If you ever feel like you are making too much money, send the excess to me, I'll PM you my address.
 
erc80 said:
I don't think the question should be CAN you earn big bucks in psychiatry I think the question should be more along the lines of: WHY do you want to earn big bucks as a psychiatrist?

Some of us, between graduate school, medical school, private loans for unseen emergencies that arose, perceived future family support, loss of (in some cases) eight+ years of family events, birthdays, funerals, emergencies, reunions, births, milestones, relationships, and of course, desire to simply have a very enjoyable lifestyle, wish to make a very good salary.

People always claim that doctors make more than the average worker. We're not the average worker, compared to the vast majority of the workforce, we've made many more sacrifices, and suffered in school for much longer. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be compensated for this.

The simple fact that you would like to make a lot of money in no way correlates to less interest in the patient...unless you let it.
 
erc80 said:
Miklos,

Theoretically, perhaps Capitalism need not be a zero sum game. However, in practice it is just that. In the United States which does not have a strong social democratic tradition the poor and working class are poorer than anywhere else in the Industrial World. A large part of any income at the higher levels comes from the direct exploitation of the poor and working class. Take for example, the absolutely raw exploitation of immigrants both legal and illegal that is exercised by wealthy professionals in such cities as Washington and New York. Not to mention the rest of the country where the exploitation simply takes a different form. It's virtually impossible in an American city to find a highly paid professional whose domestic work is not carried out by illegal immigrants. Even the President's nominee to head Homeland Security was exploiting illegal immigrants as domestic help. The whole of America is virtually a zero sum game.

Morally it can be said that America's doctors are the zero in the zero sum.

I think that we will simply have to agree to disagree. I could spend a fair amount of time arguing my point, but I doubt that this would convince you.

With regard to physician's salaries, I think that Anasazi makes a good point.

I'd like to add to it.

While travelling recently, I picked up USAToday (don't usually read it), who were running a series of articles on the "Healthcare crunch".

One of their examples of people suffering under the present system is the following one:

USAToday piece said:
...co-payments can strain family budgets.

Kimberly Anderson, 31, of San Antonio, has insurance through her husband's job. In the past year, she's had two surgeries, and both her children had surgery for ear tubes. The family income is about $72,000, but their mortgage eats up $1,500 of that a month and payments on two new cars an additional $1,200. She says she and her husband, Jeff, owe about $1,500 to more than a dozen doctors and labs for the costs the insurance plan did not cover. Paying off those bills has fallen behind other priorities.

"You get bills from the anesthesiologist, the surgeon, the consulting surgeon, not to mention the bills for labs, X-rays and MRIs," she says. "They're all in collections right now. We're a middle-income family. Our money goes to the bills and getting food on the table and getting stuff we need to have. Medical bills come last."

She says the bills did not interfere with getting a mortgage on a new house because the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) didn't count medical debt in its calculations.

I don't want to defend all aspects of the present healthcare situation in the U.S., but I'd like to point out the following:

It seems that this family regards their medical bills as best as a nuisance and their behavior (new house, two new cars while leaving medical bills in collection) seems to indicate that they feel that they are entitled to healthcare. (The fact that USAToday printed it indicates to me that there must be a significant number of people who feel the same way.)

However, I'm willing to bet that when they call a plumber (or another professional) that they promptly pay their bill.

I'd like to think that my training and responsibility (for other possible reasons, please see a more exhaustive list on Anasazi's post) significantly exceeds a plumber's.

Why shouldn't I be compensated more (so long I fulfill my job legally and ethically) than the proverbial plumber?

Miklos
 
Academic psychiatrists start at $90-100K (Psychiatr Serv. 2005 Feb;56(2):142). Don't do academics if you want that prized $350K/year.
 
Miklos said:
It seems that this family regards their medical bills as best as a nuisance and their behavior (new house, two new cars while leaving medical bills in collection) seems to indicate that they feel that they are entitled to healthcare. (The fact that USAToday printed it indicates to me that there must be a significant number of people who feel the same way.)

Miklos,

Sorry I can't respond to your post fully at the moment - I will do so later.
I just wanted to point out something here for the time being.

Everyone is entitled to healthcare. Every single person should get adequate healthcare and they shouldn't have to go into massive debt in order to pay off hospital bills. Healthcare should not be reserved for the wealthy -- everyone should have it. No one should have to make a choice between their child's college fund or paying off a large hospital bill. This just should not be an issue and it saddens me greatly that it is a problem for a whole lot of people.

But I guess it goes back to that whole thing about "worth" I posted earlier. Well the poor must not be "worth" very much in North America society- look at how we treat them.

It is a tragedy that someone can't see a doctor because he or she cannot afford to do so. What a sad state of affairs.
 
erc80 said:
Miklos,

Sorry I can't respond to your post fully at the moment - I will do so later.
I just wanted to point out something here for the time being.

Everyone is entitled to healthcare. Every single person should get adequate healthcare and they shouldn't have to go into massive debt in order to pay off hospital bills. Healthcare should not be reserved for the wealthy -- everyone should have it. No one should have to make a choice between their child's college fund or paying off a large hospital bill. This just should not be an issue and it saddens me greatly that it is a problem for a whole lot of people.

But I guess it goes back to that whole thing about "worth" I posted earlier. Well the poor must not be "worth" very much in North America society- look at how we treat them.

It is a tragedy that someone can't see a doctor because he or she cannot afford to do so. What a sad state of affairs.

In your opinion, outside of healthcare, what other entitlements should we extend to the general populace? (The indigent, BTW, are entitled to healthcare via Medicaid.)

Everything (including healthcare) has a cost. The question is who pays for it and in what form.

Have you considered emigrating to a "socialist paradise"?

If not, perhaps you might want to look into it.
 
I've got to tell you erc80, I read your posts and just see them as strewn with logical fallacies. Appeals to pity, prejudicial and moralistic language.

To agree with you means I'm a good person, but to disagree with you means I'm greedy, materialist and beating the poor thrice weekly?

I think I need more from your arguments than your estimation of the definition of moral goodness. For instance, you make the statement "everyone is entitled to healthcare." What do you mean? Healthcare is a finite resource. How much of it should everyone get? Yearly MRIs? Routine Mental Health 'check ups'? Does it mean less people should get expensive diagnostic tests looking for obscure diseases so that more money is available for general physical exams? Should everyone get full access to inexpensive treatments and restricted access to expensives ones, and if so what happens to research and innovation?

Platitudes are rather easy, as the great Kent Brockman says "they tug at the heart strings and fog the mind", but they don't make convincing arguments.
 
Solideliquid said:
Do you hate america? Sure there is exploitation, but compare the US to the rest of the world. People are DYING in Africa, need I say more?

There is nothing wrong with doing your job as a physician and being compensated for it, even if you are compensated 350k. Are you saying those of us that will go on to make that kind of money should be punished?

Monicak- If you ever feel like you are making too much money, send the excess to me, I'll PM you my address.

I'm not sure where you were going with this "People are DYING in Africa, need I say more?" thing.

So people are dying around the world that makes North American society somehow better in comparison? Are you saying we shouldn't improve a faulty system because people are dying in other parts of the world? If you're trying to give me perspective, well believe me I know the world is a messed up place. Perhaps we should start by looking at ourselves. But that is a painful thing to do and I can understand why we might not want to do so. Things are very messed up with our society, indeed.

I'm checking out Mikolas article about how sixty-two percent of those WITH health insurance are struggling to pay their medical bills. Those are the ones with health insurance! What about the rest? Every day people are going without medical treatment and/or prescriptions because they can't afford it and we've got a thread going here about how to earn big bucks. Something doesn't seem right here.

And I was rather disappointed (though not shocked) to see the question: Do you hate America? (Did anyone read my whole post by the way?) NO I DO NOT hate America. I hate the inequality in North America. I hate it that we are discussing the question "can I earn 350,000$ as a psychiatrist" meanwhile people are barely putting food on the table and/or drowning in overdue medical bills. Call me a socialist or a hater of the US or whatever you want but I just think we've got things entirely backwards in North American society. Everyone should get adequate medical treatment REGARDLESS of how much money they make. Plain and simple. Make sense to me.
 
So, are you saying there is a causal linking between generating income as a psychiatrist and starvation?

If a psychiatrist makes $350,000.00 then she (or he) is removing morsels of bread directly from the mouths of emaciated children?

At one income level does the psychiatrist no longer starve children? $100,000? If a dedicated psychiatrist decides to work for free, will more food then be availavle for starving children?
 
Well Im sorry to tell you America is a capitalistic society, been so since 1776. If you feel that those that can succeed in this system deserved to be punished and treated like those that cannot succeed, then perhaps you may want to move to the UK or Canada.

Those places provid health care to ALL for free, but the physicians make less money than here in the US.
 
Milo said:
So, are you saying there is a causal linking between generating income as a psychiatrist and starvation?

If a psychiatrist makes $350,000.00 then she (or he) is removing morsels of bread directly from the mouths of emaciated children?

At one income level does the psychiatrist no longer starve children? $100,000? If a dedicated psychiatrist decides to work for free, will more food then be availavle for starving children?

That is exactly what I am saying. Please see my response to Miklos about the zero sum game. I think you either didn't read my post or didn't understand my point.
 
erc80 said:
That is exactly what I am saying. Please see my response to Miklos about the zero sum game. I think you either didn't read my post or didn't understand my point.

It is obvious to me that you either subscribe to marxist economics or are trolling.

I currently happen to live in a country that experienced "enlightened marxist-leninist" thought first hand. The results were just short of disastrous.

But, there are other places around that still adhere to the revolutionary creed.

Cuba and North Korea are just two examples...

Perhaps you'd like to consider relocation?

That way you can find out what zero-sum really means.

Good luck.
 
erc80 said:
That is exactly what I am saying. Please see my response to Miklos about the zero sum game. I think you either didn't read my post or didn't understand my point.


I would love to see you demonstrate that causality with actual data. I'm amazed that you took the hyperbole of my question as reality. I must agree with Miklos, you are a troll.
 
Solideliquid said:
Well Im sorry to tell you America is a capitalistic society, been so since 1776. If you feel that those that can succeed in this system deserved to be punished and treated like those that cannot succeed, then perhaps you may want to move to the UK or Canada.

Those places provid health care to ALL for free, but the physicians make less money than here in the US.

In order for a few to be rich a whole lot have to suffer. That's just the way it goes because not everyone can be wealthy.

It is interesting to me that you deem a pay cut from a salary as high as 350,000$ to be a "punishment" Then people jump on this thread and are critical of people who feel "entitled" to health care. Seems to me this whole thread is about entitlement. You guys don't earn big bucks because you are more worthy, you earn big bucks in part because statistically someone is going to in this society. Someone is going to be raking in dough while others are barely scraping by. Call it the luck of the draw. You guys are lucky, just remember there are a whole lot of people out there who aren't as fortunate to have gotten a university education etc etc. And I too, am fortunate.

It is interesting to me as well that you say that "successful people" should never be treated like "those who cannot succeed." This smacks of the "US" versus "THEM" mentality. And really that's the whole problem here. You're saying that people should be punished for having bad luck in life? That they don't deserve health care because they don't make "X' number of dollars. That's brutal.

No need for me to move to Canada, I already live there. And you're right - the physicians do make less and THIS is not a bad thing. Our health care system isn't perfect but I know that if get sick tomorrow I'm not going to have to take out a loan to pay the bill. And that is a good feeling. Because, as I've said before no one should have to worry about that.

Ban me if you must for stating my opinions.
 
Milo said:
I would love to see you demonstrate that causality with actual data. I'm amazed that you took the hyperbole of my question as reality. I must agree with Miklos, you are a troll.

Whatever guys I was waiting for someone to come up with a reason to ban me. Seems to me I've questioned your way of life and you don't like that. Call me a troll (I'm not...just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am a troll).

Call me a socialist (which by the way I don't find insulting in the slightest). Call me whatever you want.

You guys aren't even bothering to read my posts. What a waste of time trying to discuss this with you. You nitpick on small details while missing the whole larger picture (ie "she's a troll" "why don't you move to a socialist paradise" blah blah).

I know you don't get what I'm saying in the slightest. And that's okay with me, you don't have to get it. Chances are you never will.
 
erc80 said:
In order for a few to be rich a whole lot have to suffer.
Hogwash, specious reasoning.

erc80 said:
Ban me if you must for stating my opinions.
- Logical fallacy, appeal to pity, you're quite the little martyr.
 
Miklos said:
It is obvious to me that you either subscribe to marxist economics or are trolling.

I currently happen to live in a country that experienced "enlightened marxist-leninist" thought first hand. The results were just short of disastrous.

But, there are other places around that still adhere to the revolutionary creed.

Cuba and North Korea are just two examples...

Perhaps you'd like to consider relocation?

That way you can find out what zero-sum really means.

Good luck.

Yeah there you go. I'm either with you or against you. I can't possibly have a strong belief in health care I must be a Marxist! Goodness knows I can't just have an opinion that differs from yours.

I'm either a Marxist or a troll. I'm either with you or I'm a Communist. I'm either with you or I should get out of the country.

You guys are funny,lol.
 
Milo said:
Hogwash, specious reasoning.

- Logical fallacy, appeal to pity, you're quite the little martyr.

Believe me it's not an appeal to pity. I don't expect to get any sympathy here.
 
erc80 said:
Yeah there you go. I'm either with you or against you. I can't possibly have a strong belief in health care I must be a Marxist! Goodness knows I can't just have an opinion that differs from yours.

I'm either a Marxist or a troll. I'm either with you or I'm a Communist. I'm either with you or I should get out of the country.

You guys are funny,lol.

Your agreeing with Milo's assertion that someone making $350,000 in the U.S. is taking crumbs from an emiciated baby is among the cornerstones of marxist economics (as well as being the definition of a zero-sum game).

Regarding Canada;

Last I read, more than 25% of Canadians do not have a PCP. The provincial governments answer to this problem is something like the Ontario IMG program, which is nothing short of a joke. How many IMGs are driving cabs or delivering pizza in major Canadian cities?

The provincial governments directly and indirectly limit the number of physicians, because each one represents additional cost (fee per service, though capped) to the provinces.

Waiting lists for diagnostic imaging exams or to see a specialist or are common place and long in Canada.

Why is it again that thousands of Canadians cross the border each year to get CTs, MRIs, surgery, etc?

Also, take a look at Canadian healthcare scandals of late. Just a few off the top of my head are c.diff in Quebec and that lady that had to give birth to her child a couple hundred miles away, because they couldn't accomodate her in her hometown?
 
Anasazi23 said:
Some of us, between graduate school, medical school, private loans for unseen emergencies that arose, perceived future family support, loss of (in some cases) eight+ years of family events, birthdays, funerals, emergencies, reunions, births, milestones, relationships, and of course, desire to simply have a very enjoyable lifestyle, wish to make a very good salary.

People always claim that doctors make more than the average worker. We're not the average worker, compared to the vast majority of the workforce, we've made many more sacrifices, and suffered in school for much longer. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be compensated for this.

The simple fact that you would like to make a lot of money in no way correlates to less interest in the patient...unless you let it.

You make it sound like someone forced you to go to medical school. You make it sound like you were forced to make those sacrifices. You most likely knew what you were getting into. You didn't have to med school, or maybe you did? I don't know you.

I don't understand how money will compensate you for time lost to your studies (ie time not spend with family, birthdays, milestones, relationships) If you think money is going to somehow compensate you for that well you'd be wrong.

I don't want to be nasty here. I hope you will find the money to be adequate compensation for all those sacrifices. But I don't think it will be. I'm sure you know that no amount of money can compensate for time lost.
 
Miklos is just slamming you with real world data on the consistent failures of socialism, and yet your only repartee continues to be raw emotion.

It's becoming painful to watch.
 
Miklos said:
Why is it again that thousands of Canadians cross the border each year to get CTs, MRIs, surgery, etc?

I could ask you a similar question. Why is it that Americans come over to Canada by the truckload to get their prescriptions filled? :rolleyes: Am I missing something here? Enlighten me.

I never said the Canadian system is perfect. I NEVER said that, believe me I know we have a whole lot of problems to fix. But we still at least have Universal Health Care. We have a lot to work on I agree with you there, but I think we've got the right idea at least.

I never claimed to be an economist or to know everthing about life. I know I have a lot to learn but I'm just not going to learn it from you guys here. And I'm sure you are thinking the same thing about me (or you're thinking worse things about me :))

Why do you guys even care what this lonely pathetic socialist marxist thinks anyway? You think I'm out to lunch on this whole topic so why did you even respond? I don't get it at all.
 
Oh sorry! I wasn't even aware I was being "slammed". I'll have to pay closer attention next time :rolleyes:
 
erc80 said:
In order for a few to be rich a whole lot have to suffer. That's just the way it goes because not everyone can be wealthy.


Erc- You are wrong. In our society most people have many choices and opportunities. I made the choice to go to college, then to med school. The fact that I choose to get an education provides me a higher chance of being successful.

I must again disagree with you on what you said above. You are partially right about the above. This is capitalism, money, along with all other resources are finite. If an amount of people make a lot of it, the rest will take the rest. Those are the people who will elect to forgo an education and work at Burger King. This is our society, those with the drive will succeed, the rest will "suffer" in your views. No one forced those people to not strive and get educated.

From you post you are against this. Well I like it this way, that is why I choose to remain a part of this society. If you do not approve of this system please move to a country that emphasizes equal pay for all. In communist china a doctor makes as much as a fast food worker. If that is the way you want to live go there. We like our society and have worked hard to achieve it through sweat, blood, and war. Do not criticize the american way and enjoy the freedom it provides.
 
erc80 said:
I could ask you a similar question. Why is it that Americans come over to Canada by the truckload to get their prescriptions filled? :rolleyes: Am I missing something here? Enlighten me.

A case of market failure by big pharma and Canada. Don't except it to continue forever. In fact, if arbitrage continues to grow, you can expect prices north of the border to increase, while prices in the south fall.

I never said the Canadian system is perfect. I NEVER said that, believe me I know we have a whole lot of problems to fix. But we still at least have Universal Health Care. We have a lot to work on I agree with you there, but I think we've got the right idea at least.

It is a tired old cliche. Yeah, but we've got universal health care.

Big deal.

How is it universal, if all the beforementioned conditions exist?

I don't claim (see my previous post on this thread) that the U.S. healthcare "system" is perfect. However, I am pretty sure that universal coverage is not a panacea.

As Milo pointed out, healthcare resources are finite and if high-tech, expensive to boot.

Classical economics dictates that if a resource is scare, the best way to conserve it is to charge for it.

Think of a shortage of parking spaces in a downtown area in a major city. If parking were "free" (BTW, if you'd like to understand economics, you may wish to strike that word from your vocabulary -- nothing is "free"), what would happen? Would those resources (in this case parking spaces) be allocated efficiently?

Canada's answer to finite resources is essentially a centrally planned economy (we can hem and haw, but that's what I believe it to be).

Let's look at those results again. What do Canadians get for their healthcare loonie?

-Platitudes about how they've got universal healthcare, unlike those cruel yankees down south.
-Lots of folks without a PCP.
-Insanities unheard of in the U.S. like the woman giving birth hundreds of miles away.
-Months of waiting lists for routine procedures and surgeries.
-C. diff hospitals all over the Canadian East.
-Blood tainting scandals.
-A couple thousand immigrants to Canada with medical qualifications wasting their lives doing other stuff. (BTW, many Canadian IMGs come to the U.S., because they can't go home for residency training.)

Before you throw the stone at the U.S. system, please take a very close look at your own.

I never claimed to be an economist or to know everthing about life.

That's for certain.

Good luck.
 
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