Canadian DS-The Hoopla over "HIGH" Admission Stats.

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doc toothache

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Whenever there is a post regarding Canadian DS, the usual comment that follows is how “insanely competitive” it is to gain acceptance. The usual gpa mentioned is a 3.9. Without question such a high gpa would make Canadian ds the envy of its counterparts in the U.S., not to mention medical and other professional schools. While such a high gpa is possible it would mean that Can applicants/enrollees are able to achieve far higher academic standards, have a much higher applicant pool and have grades that are clustered closely to the mean with a much lower standard deviation.

The hype over high admission stats appears to be unfounded, making the unabashed claim to superiority deserving to be placed in a league of its own for myths perpetrated through the forum. Admission stats for Can ds are difficult to come by. It is not clear if the paucity of information found in the 2007 (4 responded) and 2008 (one) is due to the inability of the ds to get their act together in time to send the info to ADEA or because it is a closely guarded secret. To date, telephone and e-mail requests from Montreal and Laval have been unsuccessful.

The mean gpas for Can ds are reported (*12, *13, *14, *15) as (1) a percentage, (2) a 4- point scale or (3) a letter grade (Dalhoise). The lack of standardized grading system in Canada is even worse when universities are taken into account. There are 8 different grading systems to choose from. (*1)

There are 2 major problems with the claim of 3.9 mean gpa for Can ds enrollees: 1. Only 2 Canadian ds actually show mean gpas of 3.9- Manitoba at 3.9 and Toronto at 3.95. Even throwing in Alberta (3.78), McGill (3.78)(*2) and Dalhoise (A- or 3.7) that still leaves 3 dental schools with down to earth claims- Saskatchewan (89.1), UWO (84.75) and BC (83). 2. Canadian and U.S. percentages required for grades of A and differ significantly. In the U.S. the usual range for an A is 90-100 while in Canada it is either from 80-100 or from 86-100. (*3) It should be noted that grades for a B also vary widely; from a 65-79 (Newfoundland/Lab) to 70-79 (Quebec). Quebec has a passing mark at 60% while other provinces have it at 50%.
There is also great deal of variation from province to province. (*4) While Wiki may not be the most authoritative source of information, there are other reliable sources (*5, *6, *7, *8, *9, *10, *11) that support the ranges mentioned.

*1.http://admissionsync.com/2007/10/03/canadian-university-college-gpa-grading-systems/
*2. http://redbooks.sus.mcgill.ca/index.php/McGill_Dentistry
*3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_Canada
*4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(education)#Canada
*5. http://redbooks.sus.mcgill.ca/index.php/GPA_conversion#_note-6
*6. http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/Academic-Policies/letter-grades-and-percentage-equivalents
*7. http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf
*8. http://gradadmissions.osu.edu/profile/Canada-Quebec.pdf)
*9.http://www.yorku.ca/rocal/calendars/2007-2008/ASrules/grading_system.htm
*10.http://www.cirtl.net/DiversityResou...llabi/Cochrane_Calgary_Sci_Tech_Soc_40101.pdf
*11.http://www.athabascau.ca/policy/registry/undergraduategradingpolicy2002.htm
*12.http://www.usask.ca/dentistry/admissions/admission_stats.php?heading=menuAdmissions
*13.http://www.med.ualberta.ca/education/ugme/admissions/dofd_stats.cfm
*14.http://www.dentistry.ubc.ca/academic_programs/dmd/entrance_statistics/2007.asp
*15.http://www.schulich.uwo.ca/dentistry/docs/Statistics_Class2012.htm
*16.http://www.etudes.umontreal.ca/publications/guideAdmission/2009-2010/Section10.pdf
*17.http://web4.uwindsor.ca/units/regis...FriendlyView/6AC7CC1DAE37CF7485256D36004C7671

Code:
Canadia	Dental	Schools	Statistics

	Applic	Enroll	Gpa	

Alberta	395	34	3.85	
BC	353	37	83	
Mani	285	29	3.9	
Dalhoi	461	36	A- (3.7)	          
Toronto	565	66	3.95	
UWO	671	54	84.75	
McGill	460	30	3.78	
Montl	728    85			
Laval	423	48		
Saskat	303	28	89.1	
	3931	362

*1. http://admissionsync.com/2007/10/03/canadian-university-college-gpa-grading-systems

Code:
Can Grading Systems	
G Sys	#of Sch

0-4	11
0-4.3	26
0.4.5	1
0-9	2
0-10	3
0-12	4
0-13	1
0-100%	20

Code:
BC		Newf/Lab	Seska	
					
90–100	A+	90-100	A+	90-100	A+
83–89	A	85-89	A	90-89	A
80–82	A-	80-84	A-	80-89	A
76–79	B+	75-79	B+	70-79	B
72–75	B	70-74	B	60-69	C
68–71	B-	65-69	B-	50-59	D
64–67	C+	60-64	C	0-49	F
60–63	C+	55-59	C-		
55–59	C-	50-54	D		
50–54	D	0-49	F		
0-49	F				
					
					
					
Ontario		Quebec		U.S.	

80-100	A	86-100	A	90-100	A
70-79	B	79-85	B	80-89	B
60-69	C	70-78	C	70-79	C
50-59	D	60-69	D	60-69	D
0-49	F	0-59	F	<59	F

Modifiers +/-					
					

Bishop 		 Montreal	McGill University	
					
80-100	A	80-60	A	85-100	A
65-79	B	70-79	B	80-84	A-
50-64	C	60-69	C	75-79	B+
0-49	E (F)	50-59	D	70-74	B
		0-49	E (F)	65-69	B-
				55-64	C
				50-54	D
				0-49	E

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So, an "A" in many schools in the United States is 90-100 right. But what is the mean percentage for the courses in these schools? Anyway, the "high" admissions stats is because the majority of the population applying to canadian schools are Canadians. We go by our system, which has anything greater than 85 corresponding to a 4.0 GPA. Ya, I've heard many from US say, if I went to a Canadian school, I'd have a 4.0. Not true atall. The mean percentage in our courses is a 65 which is a C in our system, a D in yours. I am speaking solely about my University of Toronto, with its 3.95 average GPA for dental school.
 
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OP has a point, and it should be noted that UWO takes best 2 years, and UofT drops the worst year. But most other CDN schools allocate 80-90 percent of seats to in-province applicants, so the reported gpa is little bit skewed.
 
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OP has a point, and it should be noted that UWO takes best 2 years, and UofT drops the worst year. But most other CDN schools allocate 80-90 percent of seats to in-province applicants, so the reported gpa is little bit skewed.

To add on to this point, those "down to earth" schools you quoted like saskatchewan and BC very rarely take students who are not from saskatchewan or BC, so if you don't live in those two provinces your chances there are slim to none. Add on to that that 2 of the schools are french (meaning if you don't speak french too bad) and the other provinces have one school each (except Ontario, which has 2 schools - neither of which give in province preference officially) and you see why getting into dental schools is much harder. Yes the GPAs seem ridiculously higher, but think of if the US had 20 schools, the GPAs would also be very high because so few people would get accepted thus no one with avg stats would be there to balance out the mean accepted GPAs. That's basically what happens up here. With so few spots only the top of the top get accepted and the rest can't compete.
 
An A in BC is actually from 86-89 not 83-89 as mentioned above.
 
......and those claims you call down to earth actually translate to gpas in the range of 3.7 to approximately 3.95.
 
So, an "A" in many schools in the United States is 90-100 right. But what is the mean percentage for the courses in these schools? Anyway, the "high" admissions stats is because the majority of the population applying to canadian schools are Canadians. We go by our system, which has anything greater than 85 corresponding to a 4.0 GPA. Ya, I've heard many from US say, if I went to a Canadian school, I'd have a 4.0. Not true atall. The mean percentage in our courses is a 65 which is a C in our system, a D in yours. I am speaking solely about my University of Toronto, with its 3.95 average GPA for dental school.

Schools in Canada don't give out A's that much anyways, at my school the class averages, especially for science classes, lie at around 65 - and the students that go to this school are already the ones who were at the top of their class in high school. For a physiology course last year, the course mark was lowered by 4% for every student b/c the class average was a B which was too high...it's easy to judge from far away, but you really need to know what goes on in the Canadian schools at the undergrad level to really understand how it effects their admission stats.

Oh and I have had a lot of professors who went to school in the states/taught there prior to coming here and they all talk about how ridiculous schools are in Canada. Hope this helps!
 
To add on to this point, those "down to earth" schools you quoted like saskatchewan and BC very rarely take students who are not from saskatchewan or BC, so if you don't live in those two provinces your chances there are slim to none. Add on to that that 2 of the schools are french (meaning if you don't speak french too bad) and the other provinces have one school each (except Ontario, which has 2 schools - neither of which give in province preference officially) and you see why getting into dental schools is much harder. Yes the GPAs seem ridiculously higher, but think of if the US had 20 schools, the GPAs would also be very high because so few people would get accepted thus no one with avg stats would be there to balance out the mean accepted GPAs. That's basically what happens up here. With so few spots only the top of the top get accepted and the rest can't compete.

Oh and unfortunately admissions within Canada weigh the GPA VERY heavily and extra curriculars are not as important as they are in the US.
 
Everything at my school (U of A) works on a bell curve, I wish marks were given out based on percentages. Instead, I've had some classes like anatomy where the class average is so high, a 93% or above is the only way to get an A.

I also agree, the schools up here base a lot more on GPA and DAT scores selecting against unfortunately many students that would make exceptional dentists.
 
Everything at my school (U of A) works on a bell curve, I wish marks were given out based on percentages. Instead, I've had some classes like anatomy where the class average is so high, a 93% or above is the only way to get an A.

At the U of A I too had classes where an A was above a 90. In a class where the class average was a low 60 not a lot A grades were getting handed out.

Dr. Toothache

Just curious about the grading system you posted. I looked at the admissionsync.com and was curious where they got the info for the U of Saskatchewan (not Seska as they posted). I go to the U of S and haven't seen a letter grade conversion anywhere as it is all done by percentages. If you have something a little more legit than the posting you have please share. I would love to be able to have my U of S converted to the letter grades you have posted.
 
A 4.0 at waterloo is 90+ as well...have you looked at the omsas conversion chart? Canadian schools use that to standardize marks from different universities when applying. At least that's what I look at for UWaterloo since we get percentage grades. And it IS insanely competitive, UWO has reported averages of 88.5% for the new incoming class...
 
You guys talk like it's impossible for a pre-dent to score above average. The average in most US classes sits at around a 65-70% as well, and yet there are still many student on this board who've managed to "A" out in these classes.
 
So, an "A" in many schools in the United States is 90-100 right. But what is the mean percentage for the courses in these schools? Anyway, the "high" admissions stats is because the majority of the population applying to canadian schools are Canadians. We go by our system, which has anything greater than 85 corresponding to a 4.0 GPA. Ya, I've heard many from US say, if I went to a Canadian school, I'd have a 4.0. Not true atall. The mean percentage in our courses is a 65 which is a C in our system, a D in yours. I am speaking solely about my University of Toronto, with its 3.95 average GPA for dental school.

There is a logic in your statement attributing "high admissions stats because the majority of the population applying to Canadian Schools are Canadian", but at the moment it is elusive. The mean percentage is important but its value would be more significant if we also knew the standard deviation.
 
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Bottom line is in Canadian dental school admission is much harder than in the U.S. Why do you think Canadians with stellar stats are studying dents in the States ? Right now it is just about as hard to get into Canadian dent schools as it is to get into meds in Canada.
 
To add on to this point, those "down to earth" schools you quoted like saskatchewan and BC very rarely take students who are not from saskatchewan or BC, so if you don't live in those two provinces your chances there are slim to none. Add on to that that 2 of the schools are french (meaning if you don't speak french too bad) and the other provinces have one school each (except Ontario, which has 2 schools - neither of which give in province preference officially) and you see why getting into dental schools is much harder. Yes the GPAs seem ridiculously higher, but think of if the US had 20 schools, the GPAs would also be very high because so few people would get accepted thus no one with avg stats would be there to balance out the mean accepted GPAs. That's basically what happens up here. With so few spots only the top of the top get accepted and the rest can't compete.

All of the Canadian schools are public and their admission criteria for accepting out of province applicants is similar to the public ds in the U.S., where the number of out of State enrollees is limited. The number of schools in the U.S. and Canada and probably elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with admission stats, which is a function of the quality and number of applicants. In the U.S. there are 125 medical schools in the U.S. and by this logic, they should have lower admission stats than podiatry with only 8 schools. Of the professional schools, the U.S. medical schools have the highest admission stats while podiatry has the lowest. Statistically there is not much difference between the two countries. Canada with a population of 30M has practically identical dentist/population at ~60/100K as the U.S. with roughly 300M. The 10 Canadian schools graduate 456 dentists/year which comparable to the roughly 4500 graduates from the 56 ds in the U.S. There are ~18,860 licensed dentist in Canada vs the ~160K in the U.S.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=408351
 
An A in BC is actually from 86-89 not 83-89 as mentioned above.

A more authoritative sources lists 4 different conversions: A+ 90-100, A 85-89, A-80-84; A+ 93-100, A 84-92, A- 75-83; A+ 94-100, A 87-93, A- 80-86; and A+ 94-100, A 85-93, and A- 80-84.

......and those claims you call down to earth actually translate to gpas in the range of 3.7 to approximately 3.95.

And that is precisely the problem. The only way U.S. applicants can see an 80 or 86 percentage translate into an A on their transcript is in their dreams or, hopefully, if they seek an undergraduate degree north of the 49th.
 
At the U of A I too had classes where an A was above a 90. In a class where the class average was a low 60 not a lot A grades were getting handed out.

Dr. Toothache

Just curious about the grading system you posted. I looked at the admissionsync.com and was curious where they got the info for the U of Saskatchewan (not Seska as they posted). I go to the U of S and haven't seen a letter grade conversion anywhere as it is all done by percentages. If you have something a little more legit than the posting you have please share. I would love to be able to have my U of S converted to the letter grades you have posted.

Unless there is a more recent definition of "a lot" which has a numerical value, the task becomes difficult. A class average is not much help without a value for the standard deviation. For distribution of grades one sources set A at 10%, B at 25% and C at 30%. Another, using a Bell curve set A is 1.5 standard deviation from the mean, while a B at 0.5. More importantly, guidelines for the U. of Alberta suggests that the frequency of A grades is a great deal higher than those suggested in several responses.

The conversion chart for Saskatchewan can be found in (http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf) The chart appears to be used by OMSAS (Ontario Medical Schools Application Service. Would a notarized copy make it legit enough?


http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/gfcpolicymanual/policymanualsection61-6.cfm

Code:
University of Alberta Marking and Grading Guidelines							


		Year courses			Level	Level
Grade		1st Yr	2nd Yr  3rd Yr	4th Yr	500 L	600 L
							
A+		4	5	6	8	10	15
A		7	7	9	12	14	15
A-		10	12	14	17	16	15
B+		11	15	16	16	17	17
B		15	16	18	16	16	16
B-		14	14	14	12	14	10
C+		11	11	9	7	8	7
C		9	8	6	5	2	2
C-		6	5	4	3	1	1
D+		4	3	2	2	0	0
D		3	2	1	1	1	1
F		6	2	1	1	1	1
							
Mean		2.62	2.83	3	3.11	3.2	3.3
Median           B-	  B  	B  	  B+	 B+	 B+
 
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Bottom line is in Canadian dental school admission is much harder than in the U.S. Why do you think Canadians with stellar stats are studying dents in the States ? Right now it is just about as hard to get into Canadian dent schools as it is to get into meds in Canada.

It may well be harder but so far no convincing evidence to support the assertion has been presented. Last year 58 out of the 267 international students were from Canada. The stat (gpa) may be stellar by Canadian standards but it hardly qualifies as such in the U.S. where an 80 or 86 in the U.S. is a B (3.00). For a U.S. applicant to achieve a gpa of 3.7, it would mean that he/she had a total of 12 courses (out of 40) in which the score was less than 90% while his colleague north of the border could have skated with all of the courses with 86% or less. It is unlikely that the 10 U.S. ds that accepted Canadian applicants were looking north of the border for "stellar" applicants. It is more likely that international students are accepted for reasons other than academic such as pr, socio, socio-economic and political.
 
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The conversion chart for Saskatchewan can be found in (http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf) The chart appears to be used by OMSAS (Ontario Medical Schools Application Service.

Thanks for this. If I choose to apply to a school in Ontario this will be very useful.

Unfortunately no school west of Ontario or south of the border will let me use Ontario's conversion chart to convert my percentage to a letter grade. Suggestions?

 
Is there a place to find the number of Canadians that applied to American dental schools?
 
First of all. There are wayyyy too many quotes for me to respond to. So I will be very general. First off, I am Canadian. I am applying to the US not because of the competition here, NOR because of the fact it is "easier" to get in. I am actually planning to go there because I have the money and I have a far better chance of getting into a specialist program (if I decide to do so) in the states than here. In fact, I am at a greater disadvantage when applying to the American schools because they look at your GPA from every single year. I was (yes I transferred) in UofT's flagship engineering program which had 7 courses a semester in my first year and you know what,as a result of the fun I had in first year it shows on my transcript. Now, if I am to apply to a Canadian school, most of them take either your 2 best years or they take out your worst year (UofT) in which case it works to my advantage. American schools, nope. That first year is basically screwing me because I hadn't the knowledge that I wanted to pursue a career in dentistry.

As for my lack of a "standard deviation". Listen, I don't need a standard deviation to say that there is no HOOPLA over high admissions stats. I just wanted to fill the holes or offer the actual explanation behind the numbers in which you have no idea about and extracted from a book. I am from engineering, and I have experienced what students in what we call "Life Sciences" and I know how the system works there because I also am not a big fan of it. I am currently in my final year of engineering, and as a result of me deciding to go into dentistry, I have taken 2 years of a "Life Science" degree - first year chems, bio's, physics (I had from engineering), english, biochem's, physiology, and by time I graduate I will be done 3 years of a life science degree. Now, as for stats. At my school, if the average for any course in the "life science" is ABOVE a 69, the prof has to have a written explanation to the dean as to why this is the case and if it does not go through, everyone's marks are affected as a result. It happens in every single science department, its happened in many courses I've had so far. Courses at my school have been taught for more than 50 years, only with changing course codes, and the stats in these courses are very consistent year to year, especially when the class size is on average 500 students. Within these 500, there is going to be about 3% that have 90's in the classes which is around 15 students. Among the 15, I am one of them and hey, I am also applying to dental school. And ya, I am also on these forums and I bet you many of the other students at UofT are they just dont post anything?


Many of the stats presented for many of the schools are not even valid. UofT is a number game. This is how it works in simplest terms. My professor is on the dental admissions comitee, so that is how I have this knowledge. Now the amount they look at and the GPA all depends on the applicant pool, which varies year to year. So this is an example. First off, they take the complete applications and put them in one pile. Then among those, if you are lower than a 3.5, your application goes in Pile A. If your above 3.5, then your application goes in Pile B. For those in pile B, your application actually gets looked at for volunteer, DAT scores (yes your dats mean nothing if you don't meet the GPA), and the rest in order to have the amount of interviews that they have time for. That should be some good advice for people from US deciding to apply to UofT and wasting their $275.
 
At my school, if the average for any course in the "life science" is ABOVE a 69, the prof has to have a written explanation to the dean as to why this is the case and if it does not go through, everyone's marks are affected as a result.

Sounds like the dean of "Life Sciences" has too much time on his hands and believes in micromanaging the faculty. Of course, it could be worse. He could ask for pre-approval of exams and ask profs to justify every question submitted.

Courses at my school have been taught for more than 50 years, only with changing course codes, and the stats in these courses are very consistent year to year, especially when the class size is on average 500 students. Within these 500, there is going to be about 3% that have 90's in the classes which is around 15 students.

And what would be explanation for the low number of students receiving high marks? The difficulty of the courses, the mediocrity of the student body?

Many of the stats presented for many of the schools are not even valid. UofT is a number game.

Perhaps you can share the "valid stats" with us and the appropriate changes can be made.
 
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Unfortunately no school west of Ontario or south of the border will let me use Ontario's conversion chart to convert my percentage to a letter grade. Suggestions?

It is not clear what you mean by they will not let you use the conversion chart to convert your percentages to a letter grade. Conversions of grades is not exactly a do it yourself project. Surely if you apply to ds in Canada, their respective registrars will be thoroughly familiar with the grading system in Saskatchewan and they will make their own conversions. It would be indeed a surprise if their conversion table was substantially different than that of OMSAS. In any case the quoted table should give you a good approximation on what your numerical gpa would be. Should you decide to apply in the U.S., AADSAS will make the conversion and you should hope that they will use the OMSAS rather than the U.S. model.
 
Ok Doc, you seem hell bent on "proving" that canadian dental school is so easy to get into and that our education system is so mediocre that NO WAY could courses be hard up here and thus we are all lying and should go back to eating back bacon and poutine at our easy universities. I'm sure all the canadians who come to the states for school just have too much money lying around and LOVE paying private school tuition with no chance to changing to in state residency...yea that's it :rolleyes:
 
Ok Doc, you seem hell bent on "proving" that canadian dental school is so easy to get into and that our education system is so mediocre that NO WAY could courses be hard up here and thus we are all lying and should go back to eating back bacon and poutine at our easy universities. I'm sure all the canadians who come to the states for school just have too much money lying around and LOVE paying private school tuition with no chance to changing to in state residency...yea that's it :rolleyes:

reading comprehension rules!
 
And what would be explanation for the low number of students receiving high marks? The difficulty of the courses, the mediocrity of the student body?

Haha okay I'm not even sure what to say to that, I guess all I can say is statements like these about one of the top schools in the world makes your credibility go down a little bit. You shouldn't talk unless you've experienced it, and from the sounds of it, I do not think you have attended University of Toronto or University of British Columbia and such universities in Canada.
 
Sounds like the dean of "Life Sciences" has too much time on his hands and believes in micromanaging the faculty. Of course, it could worse. He could ask for pre-approval of exams and ask profs to justify every question submitted.



And what would be explanation for the low number of students receiving high marks? The difficulty of the courses, the mediocrity of the student body?



Perhaps you can share the "valid stats" with us and the appropriate changes can be made.

Actually you're pretty close. At our school, each question has a statistic attached to it. The tests are exactly the same in structure from year to year. For chemistry, the tests are made by the lab-coordinators who in turn give it to the professor for approval. Every question is justified. Please stop trying to have fun with what you learned in your second year stats course, cause you need a little bit more than that to validate your data that you try to analyze and make false conclusions. Provide you with more data, the data means nothing and that's what the basis of my argument is towards your "hoopla over high admissions stats". THERE IS NO HOOPLA. I'm simply offering you an explanation and in NO WAY am I saying that its harder here than there. I'm offering my explanation as to why a 4.0 is 85 and greater. rather than a 90 or whatever it is at the majority of american schools. But then how do you explain many of the people that have 4.0's and lower DAT scores? Do they go to a ****ty school that gives out easy marks? Are they in a tough undergraduate program and took the DAT for granated because of their 4.0 gpa made them big-headed to the point where they thot that since they got all 90's in ochem, gchem, math, english is their first language, = no study for dat? There is more behind numbers. That is ALL i am trying to say.

There is no explanation to the "low number" of students receiving high marks. 3% receiving 90's is quite normal. How do i know these stats? Well, for one thing I received acknowledgment based on my distinction BUT my performance was investigated because I was from a different faculty (engineering). As such, they thot I already took an organic chemistry offered in my faculty (namely faculty of chemical engineering) prior to the one in faculty of Arts and Science just to boost my GPA.

Basically, you don't know my school. There IS much more than you will ever read in Maclean's magazine doctor toothache. So please stop extracting information from your sources and coming to false conclusions. The numbers may be valid, but along with them is an explanation. the 3.95 is true. and i am NOT doubting it. Your gonna say something next like, oh the average acceptance GPA for med school is less than dental school, oooooo its like 3.85. That means that on average, the dentists at 3.95 must be smarter than the doctors and 3.85, oooooooooooooooo. How about, maybe our school realized that a 4.0 doesn't necessarily mean a better doctor than one that is a 3.5? But that's not in the stats.

Your sources seem to be so reliable. Go find me some statistics on the demographic distribution of UofT's med school. Our undergraduate population is predominantly (I don't know the percentage) asian. Out of my tutorial group of 18, it went from Chan to Chang. So you do the stats. However the med school class only consists of like 10-20% AT MOST asians. That is something that has been boggling my mind. How do i know this? There is no statistics once again, so does that falsify my claim? It was just that I had such an easy time finding my cousin in the graduation portrait and wanted an explanation.
 
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Haha okay I'm not even sure what to say to that, I guess all I can say is statements like these about one of the top schools in the world makes your credibility go down a little bit. You shouldn't talk unless you've experienced it, and from the sounds of it, I do not think you have attended University of Toronto or University of British Columbia and such universities in Canada.

Actually it was a question, which apparently remains unanswered.
 
A 4.0 at waterloo is 90+ as well...have you looked at the omsas conversion chart? Canadian schools use that to standardize marks from different universities when applying. At least that's what I look at for UWaterloo since we get percentage grades. And it IS insanely competitive, UWO has reported averages of 88.5% for the new incoming class...

At Waterloo: A+=4.0=90-100; A=3.9=85-89; A-=3.7=80-84.
 
Ok Doc, you seem hell bent on "proving" that canadian dental school is so easy to get into and that our education system is so mediocre that NO WAY could courses be hard up here and thus we are all lying and should go back to eating back bacon and poutine at our easy universities. I'm sure all the canadians who come to the states for school just have too much money lying around and LOVE paying private school tuition with no chance to changing to in state residency...yea that's it :rolleyes:

What was needed was not "proof" but acknowledgment that the grading systems in Canada and U.S. are remakably different and, as such, comparing gpas makes about as much sense as comparing Can and U.S. DAT scores. There are no dental schools either in Canada or the U.S. where gaining admission is "easy" and a comparison between the degree of competitiveness between the two countries is not possible in the absence of comparable data.
 
What was needed was not "proof" but acknowledgment that the grading systems in Canada and U.S. are remakably different and, as such, comparing gpas makes about as much sense as comparing Can and U.S. DAT scores. There are no dental schools either in Canada or the U.S. where gaining admission is "easy" and a comparison between the degree of competitiveness between the two countries is not possible in the absence of comparable data.

Actually comparing canadian and US DAT scores is not impossible. Our bio, chem, PAT and RC sections are similar (I had a piano passage in my RC when I wrote it, which relied on prior knowledge, much like ppl complain about here). The difference is that we don't have QR and OC and instead having Carving. The sections that are the same are the same though, or else american schools would not accept cDAT scores as equivalent. The grading systems are different, but the difficulty is the same, they just give less/more credit based on where you are and the gpa is adjusted accordingly. As much as you would not like to admit, it IS more competitive up here to gain admission, not saying that it's easy in the states but it is harder here for various reasons such as class sizes, admissions averages and fewer schools.
 
Actually comparing canadian and US DAT scores is not impossible. Our bio, chem, PAT and RC sections are similar (I had a piano passage in my RC when I wrote it, which relied on prior knowledge, much like ppl complain about here). The difference is that we don't have QR and OC and instead having Carving. The sections that are the same are the same though, or else american schools would not accept cDAT scores as equivalent.

Isn't the Canadian RC 50 minutes while the American RC 1 hour?
 
I don't remember to be honest, but we had 3 passages like you guys. If we have 10 less minutes I have no idea, I finished early anyways. I did use the same Kaplan blue book to study, just skipped the ochem and math sections.
 
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Ya. Many of THE sources. (not yours in particular, but if you interpret as such that's your issue).
and.
YOUR SOURCES, are SO RELIABLE. May be true, may not be. I am not arguing for or against, no argument here. Possibly sarcasm? Oh?

I really think we need to keep adding to the thread positively, something that can be of use rather than this back and forth from my end to yours. People that want an explanation first hand on the proposed statistics behind what is presented numerically? It can be helpful and save people lots of money. I know lots of people will be making donations to UofT's admissions office and would love to hear the wealth of information other students may have.

From


Quote:
Originally Posted by artanis
Many of the stats presented for many of the schools are not even valid.

to


Quote:
Originally Posted by artanis

Your sources seem to be so reliable.
 
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As much as you would not like to admit, it IS more competitive up here to gain admission, not saying that it's easy in the states but it is harder here for various reasons such as class sizes, admissions averages and fewer schools.

1. grading scale is different; gpa not comparable- check
2. in Canada 80%=A-=3.7; in U.S. 80%=B=3.00- check
3. Dat is different; dat not comparable- check
4. total number of applicants for all ten ds; applicant/enrollee ratio; both unknown- check
5. ds enrollees/population ratio comparable- check
6. licensed dentist/population ratio comparable- check

Conclussion: Admission to Can ds is definitely much harder- check
 
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1. grading scale is different; gpa not comparable- check
2. Dat is different; dat not comparable- check
3. total number of applicants for all ten ds; applicant/enrollee ratio; both unknown- check
4. ds enrollees/population ratio comparable- check
5. licensed dentist/population ratio comparable- check

Conclussion: Admission to Can ds is definitely much harder- check

Conclusion: You will believe what you want, you have not gone to school up here I have not gone to school in the states (yet) and you are obviously not willing to see a different side. I wonder what you would say to your compatriots who come up here for school, my undergrad had a TON of american students and I'm sure they would agree that it was not "easy". Anyways, I'll concentrate on my 7 interviews, and you be happy responding to every newbie inquiry for advice with a litany of links and statistics while bashing Canadian schools and students. Have fun :rolleyes:
 
In the USA does an 80-90% actually give you a B (3.0)? If that's true, i feel really sorry for you..

somehow i dont believe this.
 
Let's allow the Canadians to think what they want!
 
wow.

to the canadians who are offended, doc toothache is just doing this to prove that one system isn't crazy harder than the other. he's just tired of hearing canadians bragging about how much more difficult than the US it is. he's not trying to say the canadian system is worse than the US system or put it down. if canadians weren't incessantly boasting about how much harder they have it up north, there wouldn't be a discussion. if we can all just agree the two systems aren't comparable, and stop acting like we're better than others, we can move on with our lives.
 
In the USA does an 80-90% actually give you a B (3.0)? If that's true, i feel really sorry for you..

somehow i dont believe this.

at my school, and i think this is the norm for most schools, it was like this:

A 93-100, 4.0
A- 90-92, 3.7
B+ 87-89, 3.3
B 83-86, 3.0
B- 80-82, 2.7

et cetera.

and with this scale, in my physics and chemistry classes (im a chem major), test averages were always 65-75, or around 2.0
 
wow.

to the canadians who are offended, doc toothache is just doing this to prove that one system isn't crazy harder than the other. he's just tired of hearing canadians bragging about how much more difficult than the US it is. he's not trying to say the canadian system is worse than the US system or put it down. if canadians weren't incessantly boasting about how much harder they have it up north, there wouldn't be a discussion. if we can all just agree the two systems aren't comparable, and stop acting like we're better than others, we can move on with our lives.

No one is saying that we're better up here, just that comparatively it's harder to get in. It's not harder b/c we're smarter or whatever doc toothache wants to think. It's just annoying that people try to discount what Canadian students are telling you about OUR system having never gone through it. We are not telling you the rules of YOUR system, so stop presuming to know how it works up here. Also if the 2 systems were not comparable then there would be near impossible for people to cross apply, and the CDA/ADA would not have a reciprocity agreement. Seriously why do you guys care about what we say about our system? No one is bragging, we seriously wish it wasn't like this but it is.
 
at my school, and i think this is the norm for most schools, it was like this:

A 93-100, 4.0
A- 90-92, 3.7
B+ 87-89, 3.3
B 83-86, 3.0
B- 80-82, 2.7

I graduated from a Canadian university, and the grade scale is something like

80- 100 4.0
70-80 3.0
60-70 2.0

But!, most courses are curved to C+, so it's more or less the same :(
 
No one is saying that we're better up here, just that comparatively it's harder to get in. It's not harder b/c we're smarter or whatever doc toothache wants to think. It's just annoying that people try to discount what Canadian students are telling you about OUR system having never gone through it. We are not telling you the rules of YOUR system, so stop presuming to know how it works up here. Also if the 2 systems were not comparable then there would be near impossible for people to cross apply, and the CDA/ADA would not have a reciprocity agreement. Seriously why do you guys care about what we say about our system? No one is bragging, we seriously wish it wasn't like this but it is.

It's plain and simple - we have fewer schools, a lot of students apply - so there's a LOT of competition - basically selecting for a higher GPA - no one is bragging..
 
It's plain and simple - we have fewer schools, a lot of students apply - so there's a LOT of competition - basically selecting for a higher GPA - no one is bragging..
i dont think it's ever that simple.

can your simple theory explain why we have 10 schools, they have 55, but they have more than 5.5 times our population? so we actually have more schools / amount of people... and there should be less competition for us Canadians.

you should try looking into how many spots there are at each of the schools...
 
No one is saying that we're better up here, just that comparatively it's harder to get in. It's not harder b/c we're smarter or whatever doc toothache wants to think. It's just annoying that people try to discount what Canadian students are telling you about OUR system having never gone through it. We are not telling you the rules of YOUR system, so stop presuming to know how it works up here. Also if the 2 systems were not comparable then there would be near impossible for people to cross apply, and the CDA/ADA would not have a reciprocity agreement. Seriously why do you guys care about what we say about our system? No one is bragging, we seriously wish it wasn't like this but it is.

That's just it though. how do you know the canadian system is harder to get into than the US system if you've never tried to get into the US system? it's equally annoying when canadians tell people that their system is harder to get in to than another system.

why can't everyone just stop trying to compare the two systems on how hard it is to get in? can we all just agree it is simply difficult to gain admission to dental school? in general?
 
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