Canadian Med Schools

[EndSong]

Has anyone ever given thought about applying to the Canadian Medical Schools? Canada is supposed to have some of the best healthcare in the world with doctors that still perform housecalls.

Also Canada as a country is more similar to the US than say Puerto Rico or the Caribbean. The top Canadian Schools are University of Toronto, University of British Columbia and McGill. The application process is also less competitive usually around ~10% acceptance rate (understandably so, Canada's COLD!!!), even though there is a quota on International Students.

But there are other advantages. The tuition costs for international students is somewhat lower than private schools in the States. The standard of living in Canada is also somewhat lower.

It is clear that Caribbean school graduates seem to have some amount of stigma attached to them. What about Canadian graduates? I do also know there is a hurdle in coming back to the US for residency. But I don't think it's a very large one considering that there are more residency spots than actual US applicants.

Anyone know more about advantages and disadvantages?

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[Jocks]

Has anyone ever given thought about applying to the Canadian Medical Schools? Canada is supposed to have some of the best healthcare in the world with doctors that still perform housecalls.

Also Canada as a country is more similar to the US than say Puerto Rico or the Caribbean. The top Canadian Schools are University of Toronto, University of British Columbia and McGill. The application process is also less competitive usually around ~10% acceptance rate (understandably so, Canada's COLD!!!), even though there is a quota on International Students.

But there are other advantages. The tuition costs for international students is somewhat lower than private schools in the States. The standard of living in Canada is also somewhat lower.

It is clear that Caribbean school graduates seem to have some amount of stigma attached to them. What about Canadian graduates? I do also know there is a hurdle in coming back to the US for residency. But I don't think it's a very large one considering that there are more residency spots than actual US applicants.

Anyone know more about advantages and disadvantages?

I'm a Canadian student, and can tell you it is MUCH more competitive to apply to canadian medical schools. Average matriculating GPA around 3.8-3.9 with no MCAT under 30. We apply to the US schools when we can't get in here....seriously.

 

[Wertt]

I'm a Canadian student, and can tell you it is MUCH more competitive to apply to canadian medical schools. Average matriculating GPA around 3.8-3.9 with no MCAT under 30. We apply to the US schools when we can't get in here....seriously.

I second that.
I'm a Canadian and I have a friend who applied one year and had no interviews in Canada. Applied to American schools the following year and was interviewed at HOPKINS, and accepted to AECOM.

Canadian schools definitely don't have the same stigma attached to them as Caribbean schools, partly because they are no easier to get admittance to than American schools (if anything more difficult, as above). McGill in particular loves US students and has a certain number of spots set aside each year for Yanks.

 

[knitwitty]

Maybe I misinterpreted your post, but Canadian med schools are FAR more difficult to get into than Carribean or Puerto Rico schools. If you can't get into a U.S. school, your chances in Canada are slim.

To qualify for an interview at some schools you must have MINIMUM a 3.6 CGPA and a 32O MCAT (no section below 9). Some, maybe most schools, have some sort of strict numerical cut-off for awarding interviews.

Canada only has "public" med schools, no private ones, so you'll run into the same problems of schools favouring in-province applicants over out-of-province applicants and internationals. (Except for McGill... which prefers Americans over non-Quebec Canadians).

Also Canadian schools are all non-rolling so you apply early October, interview in Feb-March and hear back in May (it's a looooong wait).

Advantages are that several Canadian universities do not require you to write the MCAT, and will not look at your scores (McMaster, Ottawa, Northern Ontario, maybe Calgary?). Unfortunately these universities are not very hospitable to international students.

Also all Canadian med schools have about the same quality of education. There are no top-tier and low-tier schools... they're all kind of the same.

There shouldn't be a problem returning to the U.S. for residency, as long as you write the U.S. exams.

I was always under the impression that it was more difficult to get into a Canadian school than a U.S. one. People on SDN have said that about 50% of U.S. applicants in a given year are admitted. In Canada (at least in Ontario) the figure has been steady at around 14% for the last few years (check the OMSAS website for details).

Canadian students apply to U.S. schools as safety schools.

Apologies if my post if filled with inaccuracies, but it's been a while since applying and I can't remember all the details off the top of my head. (Any current Cdn applicants, please correct any mistakes!).

Canada is a fantastic country to live in (well, it's a tad cold in the winter), and dealing with a public health care system will be a great learning experience.

Good luck

 

[anon-y-mouse]

The biggest fallacy in terms of Canadian medical schools is the GPA requirement. Getting a 3.8-3.9 in Canada requires as much work and raw intelligence as getting a 3.5-3.6 at a top 10 American undergraduate school. Furthermore, any grade that's 80%+ in Canada is an "A", versus 94-97% at American schools.

Most American med schools "worth going to" require a de facto 30+ MCAT. Hence, if you can walk the walk and get a 3.9 in bitterly cold Canada, and pull off a 33 on the MCAT, you're good to go at many top 5 medical schools. Most of the gripes I have seen from Canadian students involve people who *have* 3.5+, but have 26's and 27's on the MCAT, which is why the MCAT (a *standardized* test!) is so useful.

Drawbacks and advantages? American schools won't look at the Canadian 3.6 and say "wow, this person is like a 3.4 here"; on the other hand, Canadians at American undergrads have a hard time applying to Canadian schools, because a 3.9 is extremely tough to achieve at any top 10 undergrad in the USA.

Different scale systems. Yes, Canadians can apply to American schools as safeties, but that's mainly because there is no grade conversion with respect to GPA.

 

[Jocks]

The biggest fallacy in terms of Canadian medical schools is the GPA requirement. Getting a 3.8-3.9 in Canada requires as much work and raw intelligence as getting a 3.5-3.6 at a top 10 American undergraduate school. Furthermore, any grade that's 80%+ in Canada is an "A", versus 94-97% at American schools.

Most American med schools "worth going to" require a de facto 30+ MCAT. Hence, if you can walk the walk and get a 3.9 in bitterly cold Canada, and pull off a 33 on the MCAT, you're good to go at many top 5 medical schools. Most of the gripes I have seen from Canadian students involve people who *have* 3.5+, but have 26's and 27's on the MCAT, which is why the MCAT (a *standardized* test!) is so useful.

Drawbacks and advantages? American schools won't look at the Canadian 3.6 and say "wow, this person is like a 3.4 here"; on the other hand, Canadians at American undergrads have a hard time applying to Canadian schools, because a 3.9 is extremely tough to achieve at any top 10 undergrad in the USA.

Different scale systems. Yes, Canadians can apply to American schools as safeties, but that's mainly because there is no grade conversion with respect to GPA.

As a Canadian applying to american schools, I can tell you that you're dead wrong on the GPA account. There IS a grade conversion in AMCAS because canadian schools don't have the same level of grade inflation as american schools. A canadian GPA of 3.7 (or 80%) is considered a 4.0 AMCAS-converted GPA. The reason an 80% is considered an "A" is because they are very difficult to achieve.

 

[SensesFail]

Yes, I basically echo what the above posters have said about Canadian Medical Schools being more competitive than US schools (except perhaps top 10 US schools).

To put things in perspective, I've been rejected pre-interview to 8 of the 9 Canadian med schools I've applied to this year and my stats are: 33P and ~3.8 . I don't think I'd be a shoe-in at any American schools, but I do think I'd at least get a few interviews.

Also, in general, GPA is more important in Canada, whereas MCAT is more important for US Schools. What do you guys think?

 

[Surfer75]

Interesting topic... I'm an American and currently in my IM residency in Canada, but way back when I applied for med school... actually got into 1 Canadian med school and 1 US med school with 3.65, 30. Chose the Canadian school as I saved a bundle even with international tuition and couldn't be happier about the training I've received thus far. And my interviews for US fellowship are going well with more impressive invites than I initially figured.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

As a Canadian applying to american schools, I can tell you that you're dead wrong on the GPA account. There IS a grade conversion in AMCAS because canadian schools don't have the same level of grade inflation as american schools. A canadian GPA of 3.7 (or 80%) is considered a 4.0 AMCAS-converted GPA. The reason an 80% is considered an "A" is because they are very difficult to achieve.

As someone who has taken premed courses in Canada over the summer (getting A's), who did undergraduate studies at a top school in the United States, I know what both worlds are like. You're deluding yourself if you think the student population at U of Toronto, for example, is of the same caliber as that at a top-10 US school. Although I received among the highest grades in the Canadian class (86-88% in the courses), I struggled tremendously to pull off the A in organic chemistry at my US undergrad. Yes, the coursework may seem difficult to you, and yes, the coursework was indeed challenging in Canada, but you're mistaken if you think there is rampant grade inflation in America. Question to yourself why the average entering GPA at a Canadian med school is about 3.88, while the average entering GPA at a top-5 US med school is about 3.7 or so. I'm sick and tired of Canadians thinking they're getting the shaft from their schools. You have no way of comparing just how difficult getting an 80% is, compared to getting an A in American schools. If you want to look at metrics, i.e. how many people *received* A's, you're also ignoring the selectivity of the undergraduate schools. More than half the people who apply to U of Toronto get in. Less than 10% of the people who apply to Harvard or Princeton get in. The students are already selected, and if more people get A's there, then it's not a matter of grade inflation, it's a matter of the homogeniety of the student population. Most good students in America who get into schools worth going to, would do *just as well* at a Canadian school and be rewarded accordingly by the Canadian system of grades. FURTHERMORE, America's population is 10 times that of Canada, of course there going to be 10 times the number of schools and premeds.

Want more? Many Canadian premeds I know with a 3.8-3.9 have *not* been able to break 31 or so on their MCAT. Yet if you look at the more selective American schools, people who get in often have a 3.8-3.9 combined with 36+ MCAT scores. Which isn't to say there aren't smart people in Canada... it's just that Canadian students shouldn't compare their GPA's directly with Americans without at least using some sort of standardization, like MCAT, to even the systems... comparing apples and oranges. The educational systems and grading systems are vastly different.

 

[EndSong]

Just playing the odds here, but is getting into a Canadian school more competitive for an American or less? I was wondering because it seemed that at McGill only about ~150 or so International students apply and about 12-15 get acceptances. This rate of acceptance seems higher than most of the popular American schools like NYU or Northwestern where you have an applicant pool in the order of ~7,000-10,000 competing for approximately 200 acceptances.

Which leads to a follow up question, who is applying for the quota seats in Canada? It seems that off the bat, the percentages of getting in is slightly more favorable for attending McGill or UoT.

 

[DrKitty]

As a US student, I applied to McGill University and US medical schools. I did not get an interview at McGill, but was accepted to a state school in the US. From my experience, it seems that canadian schools have much higher cut-offs for GPA and MCAT, and most of them use some kind of a formula for pre-interview screening. Some even state on their websites that you need to have at least a 10 in each MCAT section to be competitive, which, I assume, means they won't even look at the rest of your application if you have a 9 in one section.

On a different note, I thought it was weird that McGill asked to describe any health problems you have in your personal statement. What the hell is that? They probably consider your health status as one of the admissions criteria. Weirdos.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Just playing the odds here, but is getting into a Canadian school more competitive for an American or less? I was wondering because it seemed that at McGill only about ~150 or so International students apply and about 12-15 get acceptances. This rate of acceptance seems higher than most of the popular American schools like NYU or Northwestern where you have an applicant pool in the order of ~7,000-10,000 competing for approximately 200 acceptances.

Which leads to a follow up question, who is applying for the quota seats in Canada? It seems that off the bat, the percentages of getting in is slightly more favorable for attending McGill or UoT.

McGill is special - it has a special American / international quota. McGill is easier for Americans to get into -- if you can get into somewhere like Einstein or Case, you can probably get into McGill (just sheer selectivity-wise). Otherwise, at all other med schools there, you're going to have a much harder time, since McGill is the only school that likes to reweight American GPA's properly. (I've looked into this!)

 

[VanCoover]

This posting was extremely entertaining to read. So thanks for that.
In terms of the content, the condescending nature of US. premeds continues to astound me.

What is this far superior quality of life in the US coming from?? The economist- a non-arguably american publication (yes.... we do read up here in our igloos... ill get back to that later) in their "quality-of-life" rankings last year put us one rank below the us. In the "most livable city" survey done by the Economist Intelligence Unit- Vancouver ranks top in the world. Toronto, Montreal, and Calgary are also up there. The states has a higher crime rate and "risk of terror" to boot.

And whats with the weather? If weather is such an issue for you, you should try living in the "unbearable cold" of Vancouver or Victoria for a year. You'll find that the only time you wear a snowjacket is on the mountain at Whistler- 2 hours away.

Our med schools are my no means "back-up plans" for you Americans. You've got it backwards friend. Try applying to a canadian school if you cant get into a single american one. You'll get a hefty load of single thin envelopes to keep your fire warm in your cleveland winter.

So tell us all how your applications come along. By the sounds of how informed you are about canadian life, im sure we're bound to recieve a couple more laughs. We're not all celine dion living in igloos up here. Sorry to shatter your dream!

 

[EndSong]

Wow. Won't really reply to that. Will say though, that California is a hell of a lot warmer than Canada and I was raised in the warmer climates. So I'd prefer warmer to cold. Where I spend the next 4 years is just a tad bit important to me. That's about it.

 

[silverjelly]

I don't think the argument should be about weather. It's obviously no contest - half the places in the US are warmer than any Canadian cities. Rather, I believe that some of us Canadians were offended by the implication that the quality of education in Canada was somehow comparable to the Caribbean, and lower than in the US. Grade inflation probably does happen in Canada, but it probably happens in the US, too. The bottom line is that, to get into a medical school in Canada, you MUST have a high MCAT score AND a high GPA (which compensates for any "grade inflation") AND worthy extracurriculars/volunteer experiences, sometimes just to get an interview. However, in most American medical schools, it seems like if you have either a good MCAT or GPA, you have a pretty good chance of getting in. I've also heard many stories of "top" medical schools in the US overlooking a pretty bad CV in favor of having loads of cash to spend at their school. I've heard a lot more of Canadians using med schools in US as backup, and not too much of vice verse. Canadian medical programs are top notch even around the world, and should not be considered as any type of stigma for an American.

 

[SensesFail]

Also, in general, US Med Schools have a better selection process than Canadian schools. That is, there is a more holistic approach for US Med schools in deciding who gains admission. As someone mentioned above, most Canadian schools have pretty high GPA and MCAT cutoffs. If you don't meet the initial cuts, they throw out the rest of your application no matter how great it is.

For example, Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario has a GPA cutoff of 3.68 and MCAT cutoff of 32 O with sub-cutoffs of 9P, 10V, 10B.

So hypothetically, let's just say we have a Ph.D applicant with a 3.9, volunteer work in a 3rd-world country, work experience with the WHO, a 37 MCAT but unfortunately, got an N on the MCAT writing sample. This person would be rejected pre-interview because they missed the writing sample cutoff by one letter. And BTW, this is actually a true person.

 

[ssc_396]

My 2 cents:

This year I got interviews @ Harvard, Stanford, Columbia and WashU in the US and 8 schools in Canada (though I've only completed 3 of the Canadian interviews).

My impression so far: the US schools are MUCH, MUCH better. In absolutely every respect. More resources, more opportunities, better curriculum, infinitely more diverse and interesting students and for a couple of US cities (certainly Palo Alto) the standard of living is definitely higher than every Canadian city except Vancouver. And these schools are WAY more competitive than any school in Canada.

*****Now keep in mind this ONLY for 3 US schools above (I declined WashU). I have no idea what other schools are like.******

The problem however is money. I have none. If any of my US schools gave me enough to attend I would do my MD in the US. However I want to do residency and practice in Canada and I have emailed residency directors for programs in Canada to ask if it would harm my return to the frozen north if I got my MD in the US. The answer (for the programs I investigated) is that it would not.

Basically my impression is if you have an opportunity (ie can afford) to attend a top 10 in the US take it. It WILL give you better training. It will not hurt your career if you want to come back to Canada (providing you write the Canadian boards etc…).