Canadian Residency?

[Pacifica]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I'm sure that many of you married med students can sympathize with me on this one...

I'm a soon-to-be MS-2 in Minnesota, a state that my hubby is less than enthused with at present. As a diving enthusiast, he would love for us to move to British Columbia when I graduate, but I have some concerns about doing my residency in Canada. Do any of you know how I would go about applying to Canadian residencies when the time comes? Will I be able to practice in the US with a Canadian residency and vice versa? Is the standard of Canadian residencies subpar compared with the US? I'd really appreciate any info.

Thanks!

 

[Winged Scapula]

The quality of Canadian residencies is not sub-par, but rather on par with those in the US, averages being what they are (ie, not all Canadian residencies would be equal to all US residencies, just as not all US residencies are of similar quality).

The great trouble will be the ability to obtain such a residency. While I am not up to date on the minutiae of getting a Canadian residency, presumably it is easier as one educated in the US than elsewhere abroad. However, it has always been my understanding that there are few places for non-Canadian citizens to do residency training in the US. McGill is noted for taking more than the others (however, sounds like its the wrong coastline for your hubby).

From the Candian Residency Matching website: "700 "independent" applicants compete for the approximately 200 positions available in the Second Iteration Match. Independent applicants include former graduates of Canadian medical schools, U.S students, and graduates of international medical schools. "

"U.S. Medical Students starting their final year at an accredited medical school will be considered in some provinces for the First Iteration, providing they are a Canadian citizen or have landed immigrant status in Canada.


Eligibility for the First Iteration

Selection to postgraduate training positions in the 2003 CaRMS Match:



The medical schools establish criteria for qualifications necessary for applicants to residency training. Eligibility for the match is any student or graduate of an LCME/CACMS school or medical graduates who successfully completed the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Exam within five years of beginning training.


CaRMS may register students and graduates of LCME/CACMS schools or graduates from schools listed with the World Health Organisation (WHO) who have successfully completed the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Exam.


In most provinces you must be a landed immigrant or Canadian citizen to obtain postgraduate training in a Provincial Ministry of Health funded position. "



See http://www.carms.ca for more information.


I will move this to General Residency Issues in hopes that some Canadians will see it and respond.

 

[eddieberetta]

Canadian residencies in in most programs (i.e. IM/Peds/ER/Rads/Derm/Optho/Uro/Gsurg) are all American board-eligible, so you will have no problem practicing in the US afterward if that is what you choose. There are some exceptions and going the other way can occasionally be a problem particularly if the US program is shorter (i.e. EMed). The standard of training and care is very similar between the two countries; the major difference is that payment for medical services occurs through a national insurance carrier rather than private companies (this will not affect you as a resident).

However, getting the spot may be difficult. UBC is considered one of the top medical schools in Canada and general surgery (while overall not that competitive) is likely to be reasonably competitive there.

In addition to matching to the spot, (I believe) you will need to become a Canadian "Permanent resident" (i.e. you have to immigrate to Canada) prior to starting residency. This is not very difficult to do for young professionals such as ourselves. McGill does not require this and this is why they tend to take more US students.

As an american graduating from an LCME-approved school, you can enter the first round of the CaRMS match (www.carms.ca). However, you should email the schools you are interested in to discuss immigration issues.

 

[donkeypuncher]

Pacifica,

As a canadian grad in a us fellowship, i have seen both sides. the road would be tough and unless you can get canadian citizenship or get landed immigrant status, you may not be eligible for the first round. All international grads go through the second round and UBC only had 7 open spots for all residency positions (not a lot).
I agree with the above advice (contact carms directly). You also may want to contact the UBC post graduate medical education office, even if you can match, visa problems, exams such as our LMCC (like USMLE) need to be done. get the info from the source directly.

Mark

 

[eddieberetta]

dp,

Agree with most of your post especially the suggestion to get in direct contact with prospective programs. However, American grads are not considered international, and they can enter the first round (assuming the VISA/immigration thing is worked out).

Cheers

 

[Winged Scapula]

Originally posted by eddieberetta
dp,

Agree with most of your post especially the suggestion to get in direct contact with prospective programs. However, American grads are not considered international, and they can enter the first round (assuming the VISA/immigration thing is worked out).

Cheers

This from the CaRMS website (as posted above) - have things changed or am I misinterpreting this statement?

"U.S. Medical Students starting their final year at an accredited medical school will be considered in some provinces for the First Iteration, providing they are a Canadian citizen or have landed immigrant status in Canada. "

 

[enceph]

I think there would be less confusion if one sees that one's citizenship and one's medical training are two separate issues, both of which are however important in North American residency training.

A graduate of a US medical school is considered in Canada to be of equal training to a graduate of a Canadian medical school. This is because accredited schools in both countries are approved by the same body, the LCME. Hence, US students can go to Canada to do a residency/fellowship, and vice-versa, and be considered on equal footing when they apply for these positions.

HOWEVER, having said that, Canada has a very much smaller number of schools than the US. There are only 16 medical schools in Canada. All residencies, with the exception of some family medicine spots, are completely university based -ie. they take place in the hospitals that "belong" to one of the schools. So for example, if you want to do internal medicine, you would apply to the UBC program, or the Dalhousie program, or the McGill program, or the UToronto program etc. You would not apply to "Lakeside Hospital program" or whatever. There are no "community" programs, as there are in the States.

Because of this, there are an extremely limited number of residency spots in Canada. For eg. there are 11-12 spots for neurosurgery in the whole of Canada, compared to close to 100 in the US.

As you might imagine from this scenario, Canadian PDs have an interest in training only Canadian citizens or landed immigrants (ie. the people who will stay back and give back to the community). Canada already has a substantial doctor shortage problem because of the brain drain to the south, because of $$$.

So, to train in Canada, your med school credentials would be fine if you're a US grad. The problem arises if you're a non-Canadian citizen, in which case getting a spot will be virtually impossible in just about every specialty except Family, where you could have your pick of residencies.

 

[enceph]

With respect to the quality of residency training in Can vs US, your view will be strongly correlated to which side of the border you yourself trained in.

If you visit Canadian schools and talk to Canadian students/residents, there is an almost universal feeling that residency in Canada is of a much higher standard than US residency training. I have frequently been very amused with the certainty with which such beliefs are held; you will meet people here who are quite certain that training in Manitoba, for example, is vastly superior to say, oh, tiny places such as Harvard or Hopkins.

At the same time, it is not difficult to meet people in the States who have graduated from Podunk community program who sincerely believe that their training is just worlds beyond anything that you could find in Toronto, McGill, Dal, or some other lesser places elsewhere in the world, eg. Oxford, Cambridge, Karolinska, Tokyo etc.

Both views are wrong. There are outstanding places to train in on both sides of the border (and even other countries). There places where training is adequate, but not anything more. In Canada, because all programs are large, university based programs, fully accredited, and many longer than their US counterparts, you can expect to receive solid, first class training in most programs, and coming back shouldn't be an issue (once you jump through whatever hoops state boards might put up for you - which shouldn't be anything problematic).

 

[Pacifica]

Thanks everyone, for all your advice! 🙂

 

[maxheadroom]

Tell your husband to wait for after residency. Or go somewhere on one of the U.S. coasts.