Canadians in Australia

[TLC]

Hi everyone, I just found out a few days ago that I was accepted to USyd off the waitlist, and I am still trying to make a decision on this offer. I am hesitant because I am still hopeful to give UBC (Canada) a shot this year. I won't find out if I have an interview at UBC until late Jan-Feb. So I have a few questions:

1. Is it easy/possible to be granted a deferral from USyd? Have any of you int'l students requested or been granted a deferral?

2. Also I remember reading a thread a while ago about the advantages/disadvantages of being an IMG, in terms of coming back to Canada or US to do residency/practice. I know there have been long discussions on this board about this and how it is slowly becoming easier to come back to practice. I asked my interviewers about this, but they didn't know much about the process. Who should I contact to find out the hard facts and process of this? USyd? UBC?

Any help/advice would be much appreciated! I was thinking of flying down there just to see what its like as I've never been to Australia.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sedination]

Hi everyone, I just found out a few days ago that I was accepted to USyd off the waitlist, and I am still trying to make a decision on this offer. I am hesitant because I am still hopeful to give UBC (Canada) a shot this year. I won't find out if I have an interview at UBC until late Jan-Feb. So I have a few questions:

1. Is it easy/possible to be granted a deferral from USyd? Have any of you int'l students requested or been granted a deferral?

2. Also I remember reading a thread a while ago about the advantages/disadvantages of being an IMG, in terms of coming back to Canada or US to do residency/practice. I know there have been long discussions on this board about this and how it is slowly becoming easier to come back to practice. I asked my interviewers about this, but they didn't know much about the process. Who should I contact to find out the hard facts and process of this? USyd? UBC?

Any help/advice would be much appreciated! I was thinking of flying down there just to see what its like as I've never been to Australia.

Hi TLC! I'm a Vancouverite pretty much in the same situation as you. I'll be attending UQ this January but still have my application for UBC. I've already applied twice to UBC and judging from my previous attempts, I'm fairly certain I will get an interview next February. I'm intending to go to UQ in mid-January and fly back for the UBC interview in February then fly back to Brisbane immediately after.

I don't know anything about deferring you acceptance, but I've done a lot of research about IMGs in the last few months and the problem is yes, there are not many hard facts, but you are SEVERELY restricted as an IMG if you want to land a Canadian residency. Your only chance is to go for FP and even then you will get an undesirable location (although it's only 2 years so you will spend only 2 years in say Regina then you can come back to Vancouver). Anecdotally, posts on this forums suggest IMGs from Australia/Ireland/UK have a pretty good chance of landing a FP residency but if you want to do a specialty, you'll have to go to the US. Although, personally I know of a few cases where Australia/Ireland IMGS could land FP residencies and they claim it wasn't a problem for them (they just had to go to places like Winnipeg and Saskatchewan, although I know one who landed Calgary). All the Canadian IMGs I know who wanted to specialize went to the US (Pediatrics, EM, one got Opthamology! but he was a genius). And they say the story was the same for other Canadians in their classes. Also, I read an article from the CMAJ (written in 2002) where Sandra Banner, the executive director of CaRMS, told Canadians in Australian medical schools that “if they are interested in [residency] training anywhere in Canada and if family
medicine was their career goal, they
could be pretty certain they would be
matched in the second iteration.” Pretty comforting because it's kind of official word. CMAJ • OCT. 29, 2002; 167 (9) Also note this article was written in 2002 so judging from the current trends, I would expect it to be even easier for IMGs when we enter the match in 2010.

So you ask, why am I going to Australia? Because I'm pretty much 100% deadset on Family Medicine. If you're interested in something else or are not sure, you have to be prepared to go to the US for residency.

 

[silverfish]

TLC. I have a friend that graduated 2 years ago and was able to defer by enrolling into an honours at UBC. This will cost him like another 600-700 hundred dollars but if you will save 35-40K's if you get in. The if is a big factor.

I am in exactly the same position as sedination. Applied 2 years with no luck but waitlist for 1. I am going to UQ as well. We might as well book our flights together for the interview and practice during our long flight.

 

[TLC]

Thanks for the info! So your plan is to accept and pay tuition, but if you get into UBC will you leave Australia? I thought about this option too, but will you lose all of your tuition paid if you withdraw from UQ?

Regarding obtaining US residency, are IMGs considered equally to American Med school grads?

 

[driedcaribou]

Regarding obtaining US residency, are IMGs considered equally to American Med school grads?

No. Only graduates of schools that are LCME accredited are treated 'equally'.

 

[silverfish]

TLC. Yes you got the plan alright. You will lose the tuition, but you also gain knowledge, experience and most of all you don't waste any time if UBC doesn't work out.

 

[sedination]

Thanks for the info! So your plan is to accept and pay tuition, but if you get into UBC will you leave Australia? I thought about this option too, but will you lose all of your tuition paid if you withdraw from UQ?

Regarding obtaining US residency, are IMGs considered equally to American Med school grads?

Yup, that's my plan. Unless I'm mistaken, I figure if we get accepted into UBC in May 2006 then we can immediately withdraw from UQ and thus won't have to pay for Semester 2 i.e. We'll pay only AUD$18,000 in tuition, not $36,000.

Yes, I understand you'll waste the $18,000 + expenses if you do get into UBC but if you look at it in the long run, at UBC you'll be paying CDN$14,000/year. At UQ, it'll be CDN$31-32,000/year + living expenses + plane tickets (don't you find those outrageously expensive?). And it's even more expensive at USyd right? So financially, I'd say it's worth it to give UBC another shot. And if you're looking to one day practise in Canada, going to UBC over UQ/USyd is an absolute no brainer.

 

[sedination]

TLC. I have a friend that graduated 2 years ago and was able to defer by enrolling into an honours at UBC. This will cost him like another 600-700 hundred dollars but if you will save 35-40K's if you get in. The if is a big factor.

I am in exactly the same position as sedination. Applied 2 years with no luck but waitlist for 1. I am going to UQ as well. We might as well book our flights together for the interview and practice during our long flight.

That UBC interview drives my crazy, in particular about the subjectivity of the interviewers. You know the first time, I got an 88/100 on the interview? I didn't get in because of a low non-academic score. So the next year I add a lot more non-academic stuff and revise the application, get a decent non-academic score but get rejected because the interviewers gave me a 65/100. On almost the EXACT same questions to which I gave the exact same responses as the year before. I still got a lot of sour grapes over that.

 

[silverfish]

That UBC interview drives my crazy, in particular about the subjectivity of the interviewers. You know the first time, I got an 88/100 on the interview? I didn't get in because of a low non-academic score. So the next year I add a lot more non-academic stuff and revise the application, get a decent non-academic score but get rejected because the interviewers gave me a 65/100. On almost the EXACT same questions to which I gave the exact same responses as the year before. I still got a lot of sour grapes over that.

Subjectivity?..the whole process is a luck of a draw once you are invited to the interview! I got waitlisted in my first year. Both my grades and my extracurrics were on par. My interview score was 82% but got scaled down to 77. So I did a few more volunteer activities and applied the second year. This time my extracurricular mark actually DECREASED and my interview score was 88% but again got scaled down to 77%. EXACT same questions.

I really think it depends on who your panel is and whether you connect with them during that 45 mins. It also depends on the quality of the applicants that the panel is interviewing because they scale the mark to a common average. Finally I believe a hard panel is the best--at least my experience shows. Anyhow I don't have to depend on this process anymore for admissions. If they accept me--great, if not UQ all the way!!

 

[sedination]

That UBC interview drives my crazy, in particular about the subjectivity of the interviewers. You know the first time, I got an 88/100 on the interview? I didn't get in because of a low non-academic score. So the next year I add a lot more non-academic stuff and revise the application, get a decent non-academic score but get rejected because the interviewers gave me a 65/100. On almost the EXACT same questions to which I gave the exact same responses as the year before. I still got a lot of sour grapes over that.

Subjectivity?..the whole process is a luck of a draw once you are invited to the interview! I got waitlisted in my first year. Both my grades and my extracurrics were on par. My interview score was 82% but got scaled down to 77. So I did a few more volunteer activities and applied the second year. This time my extracurricular mark actually DECREASED and my interview score was 88% but again got scaled down to 77%. EXACT same questions.

I really think it depends on who your panel is and whether you connect with them during that 45 mins. It also depends on the quality of the applicants that the panel is interviewing because they scale the mark to a common average. Finally I believe a hard panel is the best--at least my experience shows. Anyhow I don't have to depend on this process anymore for admissions. If they accept me--great, if not UQ all the way!!

Yeah, that's makes a lot of sense. Do more extracurricular and your non-academic score DECREASES. You're not alone by the way, I've heard a number of people have the same thing happen to them. I totally agree about getting into UBC being a "luck of the draw" thing because of the insane amount of emphasis they place on your non-academic/interview score.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Its not easy for Australian graduates to do specialty residency training in the US. This is true even for Primary Care. You have to do really well on your USMLE exam, better than a US graduate to be considered for the same residency.

 

[TLC]

So from what I know, the curriculum in Australia isn't catered to the USMLE?

Is it difficult to get a residency in Australia as a Canadian?

 

[driedcaribou]

So from what I know, the curriculum in Australia isn't catered to the USMLE?

Is it difficult to get a residency in Australia as a Canadian?

If you become a permanent resident in Australia, it shouldn't be a problem.

Their residency system works differently than that of North America...

You spend 2-3 years after you graduate before you even apply to take exams to enter a specialty.


I would only go to Australia if you aren't thinking about doing a 'competitive' residency like Derm and are willing to live with a lot of uncertainty.

 

[pitman]

yeah, requires a lot of thinking, but the OP has his head on straight. He/she wants to go back to Canada, Australia is his backup. We had a year 1 student (soccer player) who returned home to canada b.c. his wife was expecting. I think it was over holidays. But then he didn't return. A few months later I got an email from him saying sorry for not going to soccer practice (I was manager), b.c. he got into UBC and stayed. Makes me think there was no baby

Anywho, someone asked me recently if I thought it should be a secret that she might return to Canada if she rocks her interview back home. I say, **** happens. There's no moral allegiance to a school, they get your $ for a year, they adjust to whatever number of people do this just like they factor in failures, and I don't think it harms anybody. I just think it's great that one way or another you'll get there, and it's an adventure along the way.

 

[pitman]

So from what I know, the curriculum in Australia isn't catered to the USMLE?

correct. int'l students study extra on their own (or together), particularly path, biochem and pharm. it seems to work from what i've seen

Is it difficult to get a residency in Australia as a Canadian?

currently, depends on where you are. it's not terribly difficult in Qld for example, but with the newest classes it will become harder and no one knows how hard. Only SA (Flinders, to be pertinent) will not get a crunch (the 'med tsunami') as the new schools start graduating. but the biggest hurdle, at least here, will be internship year. There just aren't enought training spots for the numbers they expect. To be safe, accept that it'd be slim chance for you to stay in most states, but you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Its better to have an Australian PR before you apply for admission to an Australian medical school. You will have two major pluses in your favor, first you will save thousands of dollars in tuition. Second, if you decide to stay here after graduation, you will be on equal terms with other graduates, so you can apply for any residency you want. Former international students are restricted to working in "areas of need" which are often rural locales for a period of 10 years.

 

[TLC]

JoeNamaMD, I'm curious if you know if it is difficult to obtain Australian PR?

 

[Squint]

correct. int'l students study extra on their own (or together), particularly path, biochem and pharm. it seems to work from what i've seen

currently, depends on where you are. it's not terribly difficult in Qld for example, but with the newest classes it will become harder and no one knows how hard. Only SA (Flinders, to be pertinent) will not get a crunch (the 'med tsunami') as the new schools start graduating. but the biggest hurdle, at least here, will be internship year. There just aren't enought training spots for the numbers they expect. To be safe, accept that it'd be slim chance for you to stay in most states, but you might be pleasantly surprised.

This is a big consideration point for any Canadian considering going to Australia as the option of returning to Canada is difficult. If you attend Flinders, how does a Canadian (or any foreign) graduate of Flinders rank in the residency queue versus Australian nationals applying from other Australian states. This seems to me to be a deciding factor in what university to choose.

 

[cbbeu06]

Hi All,

I wanted to ask you all about what are the items that have to be taken care of at home before leaving to Australia. Assuming, I wont be back to Canada from 4 years, what things need to be done to close shop in Canada. eg. taxes, ohip etc etc. A nice checklist of sorts would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!!!

--CBB

 

[driedcaribou]

Its better to have an Australian PR before you apply for admission to an Australian medical school. You will have two major pluses in your favor, first you will save thousands of dollars in tuition. Second, if you decide to stay here after graduation, you will be on equal terms with other graduates, so you can apply for any residency you want. Former international students are restricted to working in "areas of need" which are often rural locales for a period of 10 years.

I am pretty sure that for the University of Sydney, if you become a PR, you are not able to enter as an International Student and will be subject to a different admissions process. They basically want you to pay the full fee. If you become a PR during your time at Sydney you will still be required to pay the full fee.

But I'm on my way out right now and admittedly, too lazy to follow this up...

Hey, why are you planning to go to Australia for Dentistry? Do you not want to be an ER physician anymore? Do you mind if I ask why?

 

[moondance26]

Hi all! So, let me pose a question. I am originally from the Philippines, and graduated as an international student from Adelaide Uni, am finishing off my intern year in SA. Have recently become a landed immigrant of Canada. Am looking to doing General Practice (or Family Medicine) as a long term career goal. So, what are my chances of doing this in a Canadian program. Am doing a general year at the Royal Adelaide from next week.

 

[Squint]

Hi all! So, let me pose a question. I am originally from the Philippines, and graduated as an international student from Adelaide Uni, am finishing off my intern year in SA. Have recently become a landed immigrant of Canada. Am looking to doing General Practice (or Family Medicine) as a long term career goal. So, what are my chances of doing this in a Canadian program. Am doing a general year at the Royal Adelaide from next week.

See CARMS resident match process http://www.carms.ca
Also see International Medical Gradusate web sites
Alberta - http://www.aimg.ca/
Ontario - http://www.imgo.ca/

 

[Squint]

This is a big consideration point for any Canadian considering going to Australia as the option of returning to Canada is difficult. If you attend Flinders, how does a Canadian (or any foreign) graduate of Flinders rank in the residency queue versus Australian nationals applying from other Australian states. This seems to me to be a deciding factor in what university to choose.

HELLO....PITMAN
Can you comment please?

 

[pitman]

HELLO....PITMAN
Can you comment please?

Nobody can answer this. Most the Canucks go to the US for res, but some have gone to Canada, where *anecdotally* a couple have been told that they're preferred over Carib grads. But there's no meaningful way to quantify this, and not even anecdotes comparing the different Aussie schools for returning.

 

[pitman]

Wait, I think I may have misunderstood the question. Do you mean for staying in Oz?

South Australia is the only state that won't have an internship shortage in the next 10 years. Many foreign grads stay there. I believe int'l grads from within state are behind Aussies from out of state, though. They are however above foreign docs taking the AMC exams.

There's no way to know whether more out-of-staters will be applying for SA internships in the future, but the trend has been that int'ls can stay.

 

[Squint]

Wait, I think I may have misunderstood the question. Do you mean for staying in Oz?

South Australia is the only state that won't have an internship shortage in the next 10 years. Many foreign grads stay there. I believe int'l grads from within state are behind Aussies from out of state, though. They are however above foreign docs taking the AMC exams.

There's no way to know whether more out-of-staters will be applying for SA internships in the future, but the trend has been that int'ls can stay.

Yes, that's what I meant - staying in Australia. Thanks