Canadians in Oz

[rayjay]

I'm meeting with Prof. Hawthorne next week to discuss the new Melbourne MD program as I've met with her before some time ago but that was about the current MBBS program.

My questions, to anyone who wishes to be so kind as to answer are several:

1. When UQ says they look at your "key degree" does that mean if I have completed a masters (gpa 3.85) they will ONLY consider my MSc and not look at my ugrad GPA? I've only taken 3 courses in my masters (all that's required) so while I am thrilled that that is what they've posted, it sounds a little too good to be true, especially since my ugrad gpa was poor...by all standards.

2. I seem to search this high and low (and will be asking new week during my UMelb meeting) but does anyone know/have statistics for Canadian students studying in Oz that successfully get residency positions in Oz following completion of a degree?
Lets be honest here, as an international, you're paying almost 250k (more at Sydney) to study plus the cost of living...unless you have that in cash at the bank you're going to need loans. If you can't get a residency spot after graduating and coming back to Canada is like trying to climb everest...backwards...blindfolded...with your hands tied together, getting a residency position (and possibly living in Oz) is important if you don't want TD Bank trying to seize your assets!

3. What are considered the "top tier" medical schools in Australia. I think in Canada, due to the fact that we have so few, and all are equally difficult to get in to, I can't realistically rank them the way the US has Tier1 and Tier 2 schools. Does anyone know if that exists in Australia? That's just curiosity.

4. Finally, for those of you who ARE currently studying there, how did you finance it? I'm going to have to take a loan, with a co-signer I am sure, but what is the max you can get from the bank/how did you top up the difference? I can't seem to find concrete evidence on this.

4A What is the interest rate for most banks in Australia? I've heard of a student getting their entire tuition amount and putting it in an Aus bank and having the "higher" interest pay for the "lower" interest that the Canadian bank will charge. I've only heard this from one USyd student who said her friend was doing it...but she didnt know details.​

I sincerely apologize for all the questions and even moreso if they are all hidden in the forum somewhere. I'm flooded with questions right now because I am writing the MCAT soon and I'm beginning to freakout about everything so naturally, every hypothetical scenario in existence (for med school) popped into my head...

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[shan564]

1. I think that's correct - but regardless, you only need about a 2.67 to pass the GPA hurdle at UQ anyway. Beyond that, they only look at your MCAT/GAMSAT score.

2. Last year (and in all previous years), that number was 100%. However, the problem is in the future... until now, there have been more internship spots than graduates. Starting next year, there will be more graduates than internships, so a lot of international students will probably be booted. Most students here are planning to go to the US.

3. All of the medical schools are pretty close, just like in Canada. Sydney, Melbourne, and ANU have the best reputations as general universities, and the Times Higher Education Supplement has published rankings to corroborate this, but it's unlikely that I'll ever get preference over a Queensland graduate just because I'll be graduating from Sydney.

On the other hand, Sydney and Melbourne do have strong international reputations, so it might be more useful in other countries - but that's more of an anecdote than anything else.

4. The US government was nice enough to loan me as much money as I'd ever need, as long as I pay their obscene interest rates... but that's because I'm a US citizen. The Canadian students usually get adequate funding from banks - the exact amount will vary depending on a variety of factors, but it's usually enough. If you're from Alberta, the provincial government will give you truckloads of money at amazingly low interest rates... but I don't know of any other provinces that do that.

4A. You can get awesome interest rates on savings accounts in Oz. It's not hard to find a bank that'll pay you 5%, often more.

 

[rayjay]

thanks so much for your input! I was beginning to think that my thread had gotten lost.

I'm meeting with someone from Melbourne today at one of their info sessions so I'll be sure to ask all these questions and update this thread with her responses.

When you say Alberta gives truckloads of money...are you suggesting I give up my BC residency and take on Alberta? I like truckloads of money (with low interest)

 

[CanadianMaple]

Hey rayjay,

Great questions and of course great answers by Shan564. I've been looking into Australian schools for the past 2 years or so and now that I'm done my masters, I'm starting to get serious about it!

In regards to your first question, it does seem that the masters degree would be the degree used for the GPA calculation. And I agree, it does sound too good to be true! Especially given that advanced graduate level degrees mean squat in North America for professional school programs.

I've been trying to get more info on the new MD program at the University of Melbourne. I missed the info session that was to be held today in Toronto. Hopefully there will be more info sessions scheduled soon. It'd be great if you could share the info you came across at the session/meeting rayjay.

As potential applicants, I'm sure we all have concerns about the 'medical student tsunami'. The Australian system is a bit different from the N.A. system which I'm still trying to learn about. I believe there is an 'internship' year before residency and this is where there are problems in terms of more students for the limited number of internship spots, especially for international students. I'm hearing things about how the situation may become better after it gets worse in a year or two.
However, for someone like myself who is interested in returning to Canada (or the U.S.), provided that I am successful in matching in either of the two countries, would I not have to worry about securing an internship in Australia? I know that it is of course ideal to keep all your options open i.e. have doors open in Aus and N.A.

Any further info and insight would be appreciated! I'll also be posting here with any additional updates and info I am able to obtain.

 

[redshifteffect]

Hey rayjay,


However, for someone like myself who is interested in returning to Canada (or the U.S.), provided that I am successful in matching in either of the two countries, would I not have to worry about securing an internship in Australia? I know that it is of course ideal to keep all your options open i.e. have doors open in Aus and N.A.
n.

The main problem with this is that we know that new Osteopathic schools are opening up in the US, residency programs are making it harder to get J1 and H1Bs (losing funding) and Canada has not increased its residency positions by any significant amount though the number of applicants has been increasing. Now Australian training is recognised in Canada...so this used to be the safest route for people "who wanted to return". Which is why it is important even if you think you are going to return and get a match.

Link: http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=aoa_ompreport_profession

 

[rayjay]

Ok so here is the info I got. I forgot to write it down but I rememer most. I'm sure Matt will correct me if I'm wrong. Also, excuse the typos. I'm typing on a moving bus. All this info is for Melbourne.

GPA - calculated over the last three years and weighted. Generally a GPA in the 3.5 range and a 30P on the MCAT is good however since they are weighed 50/50 to rank applicants a slightly lower GPA can be balanced by a better MCAT. Masters grades are NOT included, only undergraduate.

ECs - probably will come into play during your MMI but the interview is more of a role playing format. If you can squeeze in their that you cured diabetes through your graduate research work, I'm sure that would help

Finances - I'm sure this applies to all Aussie schools. Yoi can get $150k up front from private banks and then separate loan amounts from your provincial govt. Matt mentioned that Albertans can get from 30-40k per year. I hope BC DOES THE SAME. Banks offer a higher prime rate in Oz so you can our the whole amount into a bank there and use the Oz interest to
pay off your Canadian interest. You need a co-signer for the larger loan amounts though.

MATCHING - probably the section we are all interested in the most. I don't remember the statistic but I remeberancr being impressed by the match success of Melbourne graduates back to Canads through CaRMS. Students
often study for MCCEE in the summer of their first year...assuming you find
the time to do that in between working to hack at your consideable loan
amount.

Cost of living is roughly equivalent to Canada but I've gotten conflciting reports from other people. I guess it depends on HOW you love and what city you're in.

I didn't quite understand what was said about the information regarding internship spots being reduced in certain Australian states. Matt perhaps you
could elaborate on that.

In summary it looks pretty decent to
me. I'll probably out in an application trough ozztrek next year.

Oh, Synday gives you an automatic interview if you've completed a masters by research degree. I assume you have. Something to think about. Their tuition is also considerably more...also something to think about.

Hope that helps. And thatni haven't misinformed/misquoted.

 

[redshifteffect]

MATCHING - probably the section we are all interested in the most. I don't remember the statistic but I remeberancr being impressed by the match success of Melbourne graduates back to Canads through CaRMS. Students
often study for MCCEE in the summer of their first year...assuming you find
the time to do that in between working to hack at your consideable loan
amount.

I haven't seen any reliable information re: the match rate of Canadians studying in Oz through CaRMs. Only Sandra Banner would have that info, and as far as I know she hasn't posted it anywhere. The match rate of all applicants though is less then impressive and that information is freely available on the CaRMs website.

As for studying for the MCCEE in first year, what's the point? You can only write the exam in your penultimate year at the earliest, and you need to have some clinical experience as it's heavily weighed to the clinical sciences, not the preclinical sciences like USMLE 1.

Source: http://www.mcc.ca/en/exams/ee/apply.shtml

 

[rayjay]

Oops I didn't mean first year. I meant third year for studying for the MCCEE. My mistake. One of those bus-caused typos I mentioned.

 

[CanadianMaple]

Thanks for all the great info Rayjay, greatly appreciated!

It will be interesting to see how Melbourne's application cycle plays out this year.

It's sad for grad students like us that Melbourne will not be looking at graduate work like Queensland and Sydney (automatic interview for Sydney if a grad student? Interesting).

They also require pre-reqs like anatomy, physiology and biochemistry. So make sure you get the pre-reqs.

Finances are an issue and Ontario trumps as being the worst place to live in Canada once again *sigh, this time in regards to their stingy loans for students studying overseas. Alberta is sounding like a good place to be right about now

The internship issue in Australia is and will present to be an issue for international grads especially. Like Canada with its doctor shortage crisis, Australia seems to either be in denial about the internship shortage or is just not interested in doing anything about it (i.e. the former applies most so to Canada).

I'm looking into applying and will provide updates and any useful info I come across.

 

[CanadianMaple]

I haven't seen any reliable information re: the match rate of Canadians studying in Oz through CaRMs. Only Sandra Banner would have that info, and as far as I know she hasn't posted it anywhere. The match rate of all applicants though is less then impressive and that information is freely available on the CaRMs website.

As for studying for the MCCEE in first year, what's the point? You can only write the exam in your penultimate year at the earliest, and you need to have some clinical experience as it's heavily weighed to the clinical sciences, not the preclinical sciences like USMLE 1.

Source: http://www.mcc.ca/en/exams/ee/apply.shtml

CaRMs works in mysterious ways, even Canadian med students constantly complain about it. Their data on international grads is certainly not impressive, with match rates and all, and I also doubt its accuracy.

After writing the MCCEE, one would then have to write both the MCCQE 1 and 2 (done upon return to Canada after finishing up in Oz I'm assuming?). This means waiting out a year for CaRMs?

 

[rayjay]

Maple, with respect to the licensing question I'm really not sure. The timing of the exams confuses me.

About Sydney, you have to have done a graduate degree by research. I think you need to prove that the majority of the degree was research/thesis based. I reckon a course-based masters wouldn't do anything for you except at UQ where you could benefit fom I being your "key" degree so long as you did well I suppose.

About the Melb pre reqs. I am in a physiology masters so I asked if there was any leeway rebating the anatomy course which I don't have. Apparently some concessions can be made but it's up to you to ask/draw attention to it.

I too am interested in seeing how the app cycle works out for Melbourne this year. I am not applying this year (I still need to finish grad school) and I'm interested to hear opinions about the program from Canadian students once they get there.

I'm a BC resident but doing my degree in AB. Anyone know what BC student loans are like for overseas study?

 

[CanadianMaple]

Going to Oz sounds great but going international always comes with the issue of licensing exams which essentially have to be done on your own time. I find the pain is not so much in writing the exams themselves as it is trying to find optimal time periods to study for them.

Yes, I assumed Syd would look at research/thesis-based masters degrees. I just completed such a degree so at least I have some advantage here, meh.

Good luck with the masters rayjay (is it thesis-based?). Will you be applying to Canadian schools with Oz as a back-up next year?

No idea about BC loans, check with your provincial loan agency.

 

[redshifteffect]

CaRMs works in mysterious ways, even Canadian med students constantly complain about it. Their data on international grads is certainly not impressive, with match rates and all, and I also doubt its accuracy.

After writing the MCCEE, one would then have to write both the MCCQE 1 and 2 (done upon return to Canada after finishing up in Oz I'm assuming?). This means waiting out a year for CaRMs?

That depends. If you're willing to wait until after you've gotten a speciality that's recognised in Canada (ie. RACGP) then you will be exempt from the MCCEE. However if you want to run this in parallel with your training you will be required to write the MCCEE.

 

[rayjay]

Thank CanadianMaple. I'll be applying to only Canadian schools this year (and a very few at that) since I will not have finished my masters in time and many schools have a deadline that is required to be met as far as defending. Most schools are June 30 so unless I have some miraculous discovery between now and next June and I fly through my research, I won't be defending anytime near then. It is thesis-based.

I will like start my Aussie applications that year or (pending the feedback from my rejections from this cycle) I might choose to give Canada another go. I havent really decided yet...