Canadians not allowed J1 visas for subspecialties anymore.

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Handsome88

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So this is a very bad news to Canadians.

There have been significant new changes for who and who can't get a SON.

Are you Canadian in an Internal Medicine residency on a J1 based on a SON from Canada? Well you can't subspecialize now in any specialty starting 2017.

Please read this carefully:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-li...ste-eng.php

NEW: 2016 is the last year the following will be supported under category B. As of 2017, physicians undertaking the training below must apply under category C.

* additional training after meeting RCPSC Specialty Training Requirements
* an ACGME-accredited sub-specialty program


Category C:

Physician specialist licenced in Canada who wishes to pursue postgraduate training in the United States.

This category comprises physicians who possess a current full medical licence ("Canadian Standard") and who are currently practising in a medical specialty or subspecialty or family medicine in a Canadian province or territory. These physicians are certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, the Collège des Médecins du Québec or the College of Family Physicians of Canada.

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Are there any programs that take applicants based on H1B visas?
 
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So for someone who is in IM...is the only option now to get a J-1 waiver?
You can only sit for the IM boards of canada after having done equivalent time [US=4years ie. 3 years of residency plus 1 year fellowship, which after 2017 wont be available]. So is the j-1 waiver the only option now and just stay in the US?
 
One can do a 1 year fellowship/chief year after a 3 year residency: SONs are unlimited for those. Also, medical students should consider passing Step 3 and applying for H1B, though this significantly limits fellowship choices. Returning to Canada after residency and doing fellowship there (with RETURN OF SERVICE contract) is also an option.

J1 waver wouldn't help with fellowship.

So for someone who is in IM...is the only option now to get a J-1 waiver?
You can only sit for the IM boards of canada after having done equivalent time [US=4years ie. 3 years of residency plus 1 year fellowship, which after 2017 wont be available]. So is the j-1 waiver the only option now and just stay in the US?
 
One can do a 1 year fellowship/chief year after a 3 year residency: SONs are unlimited for those. Also, medical students should consider passing Step 3 and applying for H1B, though this significantly limits fellowship choices. Returning to Canada after residency and doing fellowship there (with RETURN OF SERVICE contract) is also an option.

J1 waver wouldn't help with fellowship.
See that was under the old policy, now everything has a limited SON.
H1B isnt feasible for some of us as that requires taking a year off as you need step 3 under your belt and you must be ecfmg certified to do that
Lets say I do IM or FM and get a j-1 waiver, does that affect the statement of need, stating you must return back to Canada?
 
1) It's unlimited: "Notations on the List of Needed Specialties

  • *: unlimited endorsement will be provided for one-year training after family medicine
  • STR: unlimited endorsement will be provided for one-year ACGME accredited training for the purposes of meeting the Specialty Training Requirements of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. For more information about Specialty Training Requirements, please see
    newwindow.gif
    Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.
  • TBC: the limit for the future endorsement of this specialty is to be confirmed. Where decreases to the limit are anticipated, this has been noted."
2) I don't understand what your are saying about the waiver.
See that was under the old policy, now everything has a limited SON.
H1B isnt feasible for some of us as that requires taking a year off as you need step 3 under your belt and you must be ecfmg certified to do that
Lets say I do IM or FM and get a j-1 waiver, does that affect the statement of need, stating you must return back to Canada?
 
1) It's unlimited: "Notations on the List of Needed Specialties

  • *: unlimited endorsement will be provided for one-year training after family medicine
  • STR: unlimited endorsement will be provided for one-year ACGME accredited training for the purposes of meeting the Specialty Training Requirements of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. For more information about Specialty Training Requirements, please see
    newwindow.gif
    Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.
  • TBC: the limit for the future endorsement of this specialty is to be confirmed. Where decreases to the limit are anticipated, this has been noted."
2) I don't understand what your are saying about the waiver.
Yes, it is unlimited for surgery and anesthesiology...I dont see anything with IM fellowships [I am probably looking in the wrong area so please direct me lol].
My question is that when you get a statement of need isnt there a clause in there that says you gotta return back eventually? Like if I were to get a j-1 waiver, is there anything that the canadian government could do to prevent me from getting one [i.e. because they gave me the statement of need I must return back after training]
 
From the link posted above, any 1 year fellowship is not subject to the limits on SON letters if it's taken to satisfy RCPSC requirements.

No, there is nothing Canada does to force you to return.

2017 Main Match and fellowship or sub-specialty training to begin in 2017


  • As of 2017, only family medicine and RCPSC-recognized specialty training will be endorsed. Please see important notes below regarding additional training in RCPSC-recognized sub-specialties and post-residency fellowships.
  • Additional training, in a one-year, ACGME-accredited training program (i.e. 1 year ACGME-accredited fellowship) will also be endorsed for the purposes of meeting the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons (RCPSC) specialty training requirements (STRs) in the specialty. (E.g.: one year of Geriatric Medicine or Palliative/Hospice care after three years of Internal Medicine, or one year of Pediatric Anesthesia after four years of Anesthesiology).
  • One-year ACGME-accredited fellowships for the purposes of meeting the STRs are not subject to the List of Needed Specialties. While there are some one-year fellowships noted on the list, other one-year ACGME accredited programs will also be endorsed. Those noted on the List represent fields of training recognized by the RCPSC.
  • In lieu of the one-year, ACGME accredited fellowship noted above, a one-year Chief Resident will also be endorsed for the purpose of completing the RCPSC specialty training requirements (STRs) in the specialty, if the training program is at least 60% clinical activity. (E.g.: one year as Chief Resident at PGY4 level after three years of Pediatrics). This one-year Chief Resident does not need to be ACGME accredited.
  • Endorsement for one year of a multi-year fellowship or sub-specialty will not be provided (E.g.: year one of a three year pediatric emergency medicine training program).
  • As of 2017, family medicine doctors wishing to complete a fellowship must first obtain their Canadian certification through the College of Family Physicians of Canada and a full licence; applications for family medicine fellowship training can then be submitted under category C.
  • As of 2017, doctors completing a RCPSC-recognized specialty program who wish to pursue sub-specialty training must first obtain their Canadian certification from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC) and a full licence; applications for sub-specialty training can then be submitted under category C. Please contact the RCPSC early in your training for additional information on the certification process and timelines.
  • You are encouraged to contact the College of Family Physicians of Canada or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada early in your training for information about certification requirements and their associated processes and timelines.

Yes, it is unlimited for surgery and anesthesiology...I dont see anything with IM fellowships [I am probably looking in the wrong area so please direct me lol].
My question is that when you get a statement of need isnt there a clause in there that says you gotta return back eventually? Like if I were to get a j-1 waiver, is there anything that the canadian government could do to prevent me from getting one [i.e. because they gave me the statement of need I must return back after training]
 
On a positive note (bc I'm a positive guy) it appears from the issued letter that only primary care residencies for statement of needs are limited (no longer unlimited), while mid-to-hard specialties have actually increased or stayed relatively the same (gen surg., anesth., opth., urology., ENT). If primary care is the direction you want to be headed, then pushing for an H1b may be more reasonable (just have to be a bit more overqualified than the next applicant). Any thoughts?
 
On a positive note (bc I'm a positive guy) it appears from the issued letter that only primary care residencies for statement of needs are limited (no longer unlimited), while mid-to-hard specialties have actually increased or stayed relatively the same (gen surg., anesth., opth., urology., ENT). If primary care is the direction you want to be headed, then pushing for an H1b may be more reasonable (just have to be a bit more overqualified than the next applicant). Any thoughts?
H1b is given for people who have taken step 3. For a vast majority of us that means sitting out one year.
 
Then use your OPT (given from your school) for 1-2 years and then tell your employer to sponsor you an H1b visa once the OPT timeframe is up.
 
What if you are a CMG, did residency in Canada and fellowship but wanted to do a second fellowship in the US. Is that not allowed either? Most academic physicians in Canada have done some sort of advanced fellowship or training in the US before, I would be shocked if that was not allowed. I wonder if H1Bs are more commonly given for fellowships?
 
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some rambling thoughts/opinions which might help with this post.
Edit note: after reading the copied post from SOCASMA, with loads of info, I decided my rambling notes are less helpful so I am editing it. I confused myself when I re-read it.
(deletion)

what has really changed, I ask myself?
the main change is less support for subspecialties.
(deletion)
practically speaking, it will be very difficult to finish 3 years of medicine and immediately go into infectious diseases (for example). if the ministries want you to use category c at that point, you'll need a plan. example:
3 years medicine
1 year chief resident or geriatrics
within these four years, you'll have to pass all MCC exams and pass the RCPSC exam in medicine (results come to you end of June of your fourth year).
Once you have both LMCC and RCPSC, you can apply for a full licence in Canada.
(deletion)
for many of you, you may want to stay in the US anyway, so the changes would mean little to you.

to the poster who wonders if health canada can make you return: the return to home country is a US requirement.
(deletion)
The US Department of State requires that every country which participates in the J1 sponsorship program get such an agreement from its medical graduates. the US enforces the rule, or, waives the rule. the canadian ministries want you to return, but they won't and can't make you return to canada.
(deletions)

I thought about cancelled federal money to the provinces for health care expenses, so it seems to me that could have played a part; but, I am speculating.

as I think more about this, I'll post ....
edit note: nothing valuable to add.
 
Last edited:
What if you are a CMG, did residency in Canada and fellowship but wanted to do a second fellowship in the US. Is that not allowed either? Most academic physicians in Canada have done some sort of advanced fellowship or training in the US before, I would be shocked if that was not allowed. I wonder if H1Bs are more commonly given for fellowships?

the changes are for doctors who graduated outside north america, ie, category b.
the doctor in your example is not affected by these changes.
the doctor in your example would use category a or category c.
do they get H1B visas? maybe. it depends on the institution: does it allow H1B to be used? does it want H1B to be used so the Fellow can bill for services?
 
Can you support this with the numbers?

while there is a number limit assigned in 2016 for family medicine , it is way more than the number of requests received each year. Same for internal medicine.
 
(snip)Are you Canadian in an Internal Medicine residency on a J1 based on a SON from Canada? Well you can't subspecialize now in any specialty starting 2017. (snip)
NEW: 2016 is the last year the following will be supported under category B. As of 2017, physicians undertaking the training below must apply under category C.
* additional training after meeting RCPSC Specialty Training Requirements
* an ACGME-accredited sub-specialty program


In different words, it's saying if you want to subspecialize, do 4 years of medicine, return to Canada, get your MCC and RCPSC exams done and over with, get a full licence, work, and then, if you still want to do a subspecialty program (e.g., cardiology), you can request a statement of need later, and you can do request the statment of need using category c.
as another example, if you completed five years of general surgery, that's enough to meet canadian requirements. If you want to do more training, you have to return to canada, get a full licence, work, and ask again later.
There are no limits on the numbers under category c (as it stands right now).


(snip).
 
Can you support this with the numbers?

the program admin at health canada has that information. that's where I got it from. no, i don't hold the numbers. if the admin says the 2016 'limit' is higher than number of requests last year, I have no argument with that.
 
the program admin at health canada has that information. that's where I got it from. no, i don't hold the numbers. if the admin says the 2016 'limit' is higher than number of requests last year, I have no argument with that.
Well, looking at the numbers for specialties other than primary care it appears that the SoN quota are give-or-take what it usually is year-by-year with some higher than last year. Maybe NewCanadian is right (I'm leaning on this side), but until we get a definitive answer from Health Canada we will never know for sure if all of us are over-blowing the situation (regarding the primary care spots)...
 
Like I said, they must have generated these numbers somewhere, I think it is what NewCanadian stated. I have emailed Health Canada as well, want to hear it from the souce
 
so what IS classified as sub-specialty training?

is that pretty much any fellowship position?

thats a f-ing joke. So you can no longer do any internal med fellowships? those who are currently in internal med program will have to settle for being in primary care?
 
so what IS classified as sub-specialty training?
is that pretty much any fellowship position?
?

the Royal College defines what is a subspecialty, e.g., cardiology is a subspecialty of internal medicine.
'fellowship' is loosely defined as postresidency training, and in canada, fellowships are not accredited.

the US often uses the words fellowship and subspecialty interchangably. It's confusing.
 
the Royal College defines what is a subspecialty, e.g., cardiology is a subspecialty of internal medicine.
'fellowship' is loosely defined as postresidency training, and in canada, fellowships are not accredited.

the US often uses the words fellowship and subspecialty interchangably. It's confusing.


WoW cant believe Canadian government would just pull a move like this especially given how many Canadians are in the US doing IM solely to specialize after
 
The only other option for sub-specialization would be to obtain an H1-B visa (not like that is impossible, but not as easy as getting a J1).
 
As denying a SoN to anyone who has found a Match in the US (regardless of the specialty or sub-specialty) is a crystal clear violation of the Canadian Human Rights Act (“discriminatory practice”), has anyone filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission yet? or does anyone know of somebody who already has?
 
As denying a SoN to anyone who has found a Match in the US (regardless of the specialty or sub-specialty) is a crystal clear violation of the Canadian Human Rights Act (“discriminatory practice”), has anyone filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission yet? or does anyone know of somebody who already has?

this is an interesting idea. I thought however the CHRA exists to protect vulnerable persons - such as preventing employers from rejecting visible minorities from applying for jobs.
 
An update from the Society of Canadians Studying Medicine Abroad:

MORE INFORMATION ON AMERICAN RESIDENCIES AND STATEMENTS OF NEEDS. We spoke to the Program Administrator at Health Canada to obtain more information about the changes to the eligibility for Statements of Need which are required for J-1 visas , the implications, and the reason for the change. What is set out below is what we were advised. This information has been reviewed by the Program Administrator prior to posting.

Our comments are marked. We welcome your observations and feedback via Facebook or by emailing us at [email protected].

REASONS FOR THE CHANGE:
1. The provincial Ministries of Health (who are the decision makers in this area) have indicated there is less need for subspecialists now and there will be less need in the future. This is because the need for subspecialists is being filled domestically through Canadian medical schools and Canadian postgraduate training programs.

THE CHANGES SUMMARIZED:
• Not much change for residency training in comparison to last year except that no area of practice is unlimited. The number of applications in the areas that were unlimited last year is less than the number of Statement of Needs that are now available. So the program administrator does not expect anyone will be denied a Statement of Need in the areas that were previously unlimited. However, the program administrator says that the expectation is that the number of Statements of Needs that will be issued will keep decreasing in the future as the domestic supply of trained physicians fills the need.
• Last year’s proposed restrictions on Preliminary Positions have been dropped. Preliminary Positions will be issued Statements of Need.
• As of 2017, subspecialties will for the most part not be eligible for Statements of Need except under Category C (which requires applicants to be qualified to practice in Canada).

ROUTE TO RETURN HOME ACCORDING TO HEALTH CANADA: The program administrator states that it is probably not possible to get through this new process using Category C without any interruption in training. It is likely the doctor will have to return to Canada to complete all Canadian medical examinations and a full licence.
SOCASMA’s note: The J-1 visa requires the physician to leave the country for 2 years once the visa has expired. But the program administrator says that this requirement does not prevent the physician from applying for another J-1 visa before the 2 years is up.
The program administrator states that it is possible to qualify to practice in Canada while in the USA even if the American training program is shorter than the Canadian. This is how the program administrator says it would work in the context of internal medicine where Canada requires 4 years of Post graduate training while the American system only requires 3 years:
a. In the spring of the last year of medical school the student applies for a Statement of Need for the position in which he or she matched.
b. In the spring of the 3rd year of residency, the resident physician attempts to find a way to do a 4th year of residency in the USA. He can apply to become the chief resident in which case he will take 4 years of training in internal medicine in the USA and will meet the RCPSC requirements. As one has to be outstanding among residents to get a chief resident position, this route will not be available to most residents. He can also apply in the USA for a one year program in areas such as geriatrics or palliative care so the additional year could be completed in this way.

SOCASMA’s note: The number of one year program is limited and entry into these programs is competitive. In 2013, 156 Statements of Need were issued for internal medicine. In 2014, 180 were issued. In 2015 195 were issued. The reality is that many internal medicine residents will not be able to complete sufficient training in the USA to qualify them to practice in Canada.

c. In August, after completing 3 years of residency training, the resident physician writes the American board exams. Results are available in the fall, ie, by September or October.
SOCASMA’s note: The website indicates that the exams are administered in August and that the results take 3 months.
d. In 3rd and 4th year of residency, the resident physician will liaise with RCPSC to arrange to write the Canadian board exams in May of 4th year residency. [On their website, the RSPSC has a chart on how to apply for the exams. Julie Waters is their resource person for USA training.)
e. In May of 4th year the resident physician writes the RCPSC exams while working in the USA.
f. By the end of June of 4th year the resident physician should have the RCPSC exam results which, along with the LMCC, will enable him to get a full license with the provincial Colleges and enable him to practice medicine in Canada
g. If a resident physician is unable to get a 4th year position in an area that is eligible for a Statement of Need, he must leave the USA.

OTHER RELEVANT INFORMATION:
1. If a resident physician does not have a Statement of Need that entitles him to get a J-1 visa to stay longer in the USA, or if he has been unable to arrange a J-1 waiver with accompanying H1B visa or an O visa, he must leave the USA. The J-1 visa states he must leave for a period of 2 years before being able to return to the USA to work.
2. Options.
a. H1B visa: he can apply for an H1B visa before or after returning to Canada. An H1B visa is hard to get because the employers are reluctant to pay the fees associated with the H1B visa. It has been estimated that only about 3% are able to get H1B visas. [H1B visas are applied for by the employer. The employer must pay the application fee which is estimated to be $10,000 to $15,000. An H1B visa is valid for 3 years. The H1B visa can be renewed for another 3 years by the employer after which the physician may be eligible for a green card which entitles him to work in the USA without further obstacles. Employees are not entitled to pay this fee as to allow this would contravene employment laws.]
b. O visa: The O-1 non-immigrant visa is for the individual who possesses extraordinary ability and has been recognized nationally or internationally for those achievements.
c. Conrad State 30 Program: he can stay in the USA by agreeing to work in an underserviced area of the USA for a set period (3-5 years) after which time he will be eligible for a green card. In these circumstances the American government will give an extension of the J-1 visa only for enough time to take his American Board exams.
d. Work in Canada. If the residency is the same length and meets the RCPSC requirements, one can take the RCPSC exams and apply to register with the provincial college. If the residency is shorter in the USA, then in some provinces those who passed the American board exams can practice under a restricted license. Every doctor should consult the licensing authority in the province or territory to find out if and how this can be done.
3. To subspecialize: After one returns and spends the two years in Canada and after one is fully qualified to practice in Canada, one becomes eligible for a Statement of Need and hence a J-1 and endorsement under Category C. Category C is for fully qualified doctors.
4. There are no numerical limits on Statements of Need under Category C. After a physician has qualified in Canada, he can apply for a Statement of Need under Category C to subspecialize.
5. There is no prohibition on applying for another J-1 visa after being outside the US for a period of time less than two years, ie, a month, a few months, a year. Nor is one required to seek the H1B visa after the two years. One can apply for J-1 after J-1. The US prohibits the doctor from applying for an H1B visa before the two year home country presence requirement has expired.
6. If the physician obtain a Conrad State 30 Program waiver, it is the employer who petitions for the H1B visa on behalf of the physician.

HOW ARE THE NUMBER OF STATEMENTS OF NEED IN EACH PRACTICE AREA DETERMINED?
This question is outside Health Canada’s involvement. They receive the numbers for each area of practice from the provinces and add them together.

Although the Statements of Needs were previously tied to the province who made the request, that is no longer the case. There is no provincial residency requirement. This can cause difficulties with distribution. For example, if there are 10 positions in anesthesiology in BC and 0 in Ontario, all the applicants can be from Ontario if they apply first. Upon completion of residency and RCPSC qualification, there is no restriction as to where these 10 physicians work.

APPEALS
If a medical graduate or resident physician applies for a SON and is denied, he can petition the provincial Ministry of Health in his home province for reconsideration. This involves writing a submission as to why the Statement of Need should be issued. Information that is persuasive includes personal hardship and information that would verify that there is a need. For example, the number of job vacancies or a statement from a particular employer is compelling. A professional tone is more persuasive than anger. It is the province that grants the exception.
 
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snip
NEW: 2016 is the last year the following will be supported under category B. As of 2017, physicians undertaking the training below must apply under category C.

* additional training after meeting RCPSC Specialty Training Requirements
* an ACGME-accredited sub-specialty program

Category C:
Physician specialist licenced in Canada who wishes to pursue postgraduate training in the United States.
This category comprises physicians who possess a current full medical licence ("Canadian Standard") and who are currently practising in a medical specialty or subspecialty or family medicine in a Canadian province or territory. These physicians are certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, the Collège des Médecins du Québec or the College of Family Physicians of Canada.

I looked up a definition of "Canadian Standard". I found a link from the CPSO website to the FMRAC agreement, which has a description of a standard canadian medical licence.

http://www.cpso.on.ca/Registering-t...Ontario/FMRAC-Agreement-on-National-Standards

It is someone who has these credentials:
RCPSC or CFPC
and
LMCC
So, all doctors trained in residency in canada get this licence. They pass all MCC exams (QE Part I and QE Part II) and
they sit their speccialty exam around May of their last year of training. They work for a while, then head to the US for a special fellowship.

An IMG/CSA has to get the MCC exams done and RCPSC exams done by the end of four years of training in the US.
(Oh, that's a lot of money for a trainee doctor who is paid a resident salary. )

If such a doctor passes his RCPSC exam in spring of his fourth year, results received end of June, how much time does he have left to contact the CPSO to get a licence? There seems to be no time allowance to apply for a licence between end of June and July 1. and how is the doctor supposed to renew the jvisa in 2 or 3 days?

Question to self: is there an implied notice that doctors should just get their four years in medicine, and then practice in Canada?
Question to self: is there an implied effort to make it difficult, not impossible, just difficult, to continue training in cardiology right after internal medicine?
Question to self: is there an implied notice that jobs will not be there in six years time for cardiologists etc.?

Well, This may or may not be helpful to you, but I was bothered by these questions. FWIW
 
So sad, sorry for my fellow Canadians who are applying or will apply to residencies in the US soon. This makes things much more complicated. Good luck guys. H1b all the way!!
 
I looked up a definition of "Canadian Standard". I found a link from the CPSO website to the FMRAC agreement, which has a description of a standard canadian medical licence.

http://www.cpso.on.ca/Registering-t...Ontario/FMRAC-Agreement-on-National-Standards

It is someone who has these credentials:
RCPSC or CFPC
and
LMCC
So, all doctors trained in residency in canada get this licence. They pass all MCC exams (QE Part I and QE Part II) and
they sit their speccialty exam around May of their last year of training. They work for a while, then head to the US for a special fellowship.

An IMG/CSA has to get the MCC exams done and RCPSC exams done by the end of four years of training in the US.
(Oh, that's a lot of money for a trainee doctor who is paid a resident salary. )

If such a doctor passes his RCPSC exam in spring of his fourth year, results received end of June, how much time does he have left to contact the CPSO to get a licence? There seems to be no time allowance to apply for a licence between end of June and July 1. and how is the doctor supposed to renew the jvisa in 2 or 3 days?

Question to self: is there an implied notice that doctors should just get their four years in medicine, and then practice in Canada?
Question to self: is there an implied effort to make it difficult, not impossible, just difficult, to continue training in cardiology right after internal medicine?
Question to self: is there an implied notice that jobs will not be there in six years time for cardiologists etc.?

Well, This may or may not be helpful to you, but I was bothered by these questions. FWIW
I am really confused how does this exactly affect Canadians graduates of an American allopathic med school. do they belong to category A or B
 
So this is a very bad news to Canadians.

There have been significant new changes for who and who can't get a SON.

Are you Canadian in an Internal Medicine residency on a J1 based on a SON from Canada? Well you can't subspecialize now in any specialty starting 2017.

Please read this carefully:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-li...ste-eng.php

NEW: 2016 is the last year the following will be supported under category B. As of 2017, physicians undertaking the training below must apply under category C.

* additional training after meeting RCPSC Specialty Training Requirements
* an ACGME-accredited sub-specialty program


Category C:

Physician specialist licenced in Canada who wishes to pursue postgraduate training in the United States.

This category comprises physicians who possess a current full medical licence ("Canadian Standard") and who are currently practising in a medical specialty or subspecialty or family medicine in a Canadian province or territory. These physicians are certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, the Collège des Médecins du Québec or the College of Family Physicians of Canada.

Meeting for rescission or grandfathering. These changes are quite harsh. We, at SOCASMA, have been discussing this on our Facebook page (Society of Canadians Studying Medicine Abroad). We are having a meeting to address this issue and report on what we have done so far and what individuals can do. We also discuss the barriers to return to Canada and how to try and negotiate them and we will give an update on our fight for equality and freedom for people who choose to study internationally:
VANCOUVER, BC
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2014
Time: 7:00 p.m.
Address: West Point Grey United Church at 4595 West 8th Avenue, Vancouver, BC (Between Tolmie and Sasamat)
 
If such a doctor passes his RCPSC exam in spring of his fourth year, results received end of June, how much time does he have left to contact the CPSO to get a licence? There seems to be no time allowance to apply for a licence between end of June and July 1. and how is the doctor supposed to renew the jvisa in 2 or 3 days?

From my read, you are correct. In fact, the Q&A above states that it will be impossible to transition from residency to fellowship without an interruption.

Question to self: is there an implied notice that doctors should just get their four years in medicine, and then practice in Canada?
Yes, that is exactly what Health Canada is saying

Question to self: is there an implied effort to make it difficult, not impossible, just difficult, to continue training in cardiology right after internal medicine?
According to the above, Canada feels it has enough specialists with its own training programs. Hence, they don't have a "need" for more, and thus don't want to offer "Statements of Need"

Question to self: is there an implied notice that jobs will not be there in six years time for cardiologists etc.?
This is complicated. Some research suggests that physician utilization is supply sensitive. If you have more Cardiologists and more cath labs, more caths are done without clear benefit. Everybody wants their schedule to be full, so you start to see "indication creep". So there might be jobs available, but Health Canada might want to limit the number of Cardiologists to avoid driving up costs, as has been seen in some states in the US (notably Florida).

I am really confused how does this exactly affect Canadians graduates of an American allopathic med school. do they belong to category A or B

You will be Category B. However, as a Canadian grad from a US school, it will be easier to get an H1b/OPT combination.
 
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Wow, this is horrible news if you are affected.

Does anyone know if these changes apply to Category A (Medical graduate currently enrolled in a Canadian specialty or subspecialty residency training program who wishes to pursue a fellowship) as well? Or just Category B, as the webpage seems to indicate?
 
Wow, this is horrible news if you are affected.

Does anyone know if these changes apply to Category A (Medical graduate currently enrolled in a Canadian specialty or subspecialty residency training program who wishes to pursue a fellowship) as well? Or just Category B, as the webpage seems to indicate?

I am sure the new policies are only for category B. I did not see any changes to Category A. That category looks the same to me. you would be graduating from residency around June 2016, right? Category B is all about students and new grads going to the US for residency (specialty and/or subspecialty).
 
I am sure the new policies are only for category B. I did not see any changes to Category A. That category looks the same to me. you would be graduating from residency around June 2016, right? Category B is all about students and new grads going to the US for residency (specialty and/or subspecialty).

No, I will complete residency in June 2017, and I have already accepted a fellowship in the US. I was alarmed to read:
As of 2017, doctors completing a RCPSC-recognized specialty program who wish to pursue sub-specialty training must first obtain their Canadian certification from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC) and a full licence; applications for sub-specialty training can then be submitted under category C. Please contact the RCPSC early in your training for additional information on the certification process and timelines.

If that clause also applies to Category A, I would not be able to start my fellowship in July 2017...
 
No, I will complete residency in June 2017, and I have already accepted a fellowship in the US. I was alarmed to read:


If that clause also applies to Category A, I would not be able to start my fellowship in July 2017...

Exactly, that's why you and everyone else should show an outcry against this and email them to at least postpone this to AT LEAST after 2019-2020 as many of us who are in residency now got into internal medicine in order to subspecialize.

Email:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
I don't think they care if we're outraged. Their responsibility is to (try to) provide an optimal mix and number of physicians in Canada; they have no obligation to help us practice in our choice of specialty. This is obviously a deliberate move to restrict the number of subspecialty physicians returning to Canada. I'm sure they were aware of the consequences of their policy.

You may have heard that the number of PGY1 residency spots was recently reduced in Ontario by 50, without a corresponding decrease in medical school admissions. It was a similar move, in that some students will ultimately be "forced" into less desirable specialties because of government preferences.

If it does affect Category A applications, I will have more leverage to advocate for changes. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it will be hard to convince many non-affected people to care about category B restrictions.
 
Laika72, you were reading the pages for the category b group. There are no changes on the pages for category a group.
 
Well for any US medical student (like myself) do your best now to get an H1B visa (OPT extension included) if you are looking into Internal med + fellowship (Many programs offer H1B's for primary care). That way you get the 1 year OPT + 6 years H1B visa to total 7 years of post-graduate training (most IM fellowships are 4 years or less). J1's are too risky now.
 
Just get US Permanent residency/green card and not worry ever again about J-1/H1b and some faceless central Canadian from Ottawa controlling your life...what is wrong with you wimpy Canadians wanting residency in the US and dependent on Canada giving you a visa....if you're a Canadian in the US doing med school it's really easy, pleasurable and fun to get US government authorization for a US residency: simply get on match com or ashley madison com , talk to an American, fall in love with an American and marry an American. It's that easy. Then you don't have to put up with the usual parochial, small minded, concrete thinking, obsessed with the process Canadians and Health Canada. If you're a Canadian not in a US medical school then that's your problem, you shouldn't even expect to get a US residency and you should be treated like how Canadians treat IMG's trying to get into Canadian residencies. US residencies in the US are for US citizens and not for a back up for Canadians studying abroad who can't get into Canada
 
ugh... this affects all specialties, not just IM. why is it so bad that we want more training... +pissed+ so sick of this

So there is no hope at all? Basically if you didnt start your fellowship in 2016 you are SOL?

I guess everything you and I worked for (for years) is down the toilet ... +pity+ I don't want to believe it :bang:
 
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also, does anyone know "as of (what month) in 2017"? seems so vague
 
another point, shouldn't these NEW rules affect people that are STARTING RESIDENCY in 2017 and NOT the people that had no idea this would happen before they made their life plans when they applied initially 2,3,4 years ago?

Isn't that how it's done usually in civilized places, when you make changes to anything that big?

:bang:Seriously!????! I can't...
 
it seems to me that no matter when those major changes are implemented, those new to the process of applying for a J1 Visa, and have to get a letter from Canada, are going to be surprised.
 
Many of you have showed an outcry against this and here's the result posted by SOCASMA:

Statements of Needs Update: We spoke with Abby Hoffman, Assistant Deputy Minister of Health Canada and Tammy Simpson in charge of the J1visa program at Health Canada regarding the changes to the Statements of Need policy today for about 1.5 hours. We were asked to defer the discussion about the elimination of subspecialty Statements of Needs in 2017 to another day so we could focus on the plight of persons who are already in American programs (2014 and 2015 matches in particular as the elimination of Statements of Need for subspecialties comes into effect in 2017) which are shorter than Canadian programs and face the prospect of being denied a Statement of Need and being forced home before being qualified to practice in Canada. Affected are internal medicine, pediatrics, and anesthesiology. Ms. Simpson explained that it was never the intention of the provincial ministries or Health Canada to put the resident physicians currently in the system in a position where they could not complete their training. The intention was to get Canadian physicians to come back sooner and to work in fields where they are needed in primary care, and not in subspecialties where there is a concern of oversupply of doctors.

Ms. Simpson stated that the Ministries assumed that resident physicians who are caught in this situation would be able to complete their residency in the US, as it is acknowledged the opportunities to complete training in Canada are minimal. It was assumed that this could be accomplished by resident physicians undertaking a one year program in palliative care or geriatrics or becoming chief resident for one year. The Ministries did not turn their minds to the fact that there aren't enough of these positions when one considers that Americans and J-1 visa holders from all over the world also vie for these positions nor that few people will have a realistic opportunity of becoming the chief resident. They did not consider demand and availability when they made the rules. There are more than 330 residents from Canada in internal medicine and more than 90 residents from Canada in pediatrics who entered in the 2014 and 2015 matches who are in a position where their ability to complete training that would be recognized in Canada is threatened. There aren't 330 one year program positions waiting for Canadians in palliative care and geriatrics. There is little to no opportunity for access to a one year program in pediatrics.

The upshot of this meeting is:

1. The Ministries of Health are committed to align the Statements of Need to physician demand (as they see it). With increased domestic training, access to residency training in the US will in all likelihood be increasingly reduced in general. The intention is to deny the ability to subspecialize beginning in 2017 except if one is fully qualified in Canada prior to application.

2. There is an acknowledgment that the new directives which is not to provide Statements of Need after 2016 in subspecialties can leave many Canadians who matched in 2014 and 2015 in internal medicine, pediatrics, and anesthesiology in a position where they have to leave the US before they are qualified to practice in Canada with little realistic opportunity to complete training in Canada. This harm was not intended. Ms. Simpson is currently attempting to arrange a meeting of the provincial ministries of health to attempt to address this serious problem which has been made evident by an outcry directly from the public and from SOCASMA.

SOCASMA expressed the opinion that attempting to provide training for the final year in Canada was not realistic. Ms. Simpson and Ms. Hoffman agreed. SOCASMA can see no solution other than grandfathering the resident physicians in the 2014 and 2015 matches. If there are any other ideas on how to solve the problem, please email your suggestions to [email protected] or come and express them at our August 18, 2015 meeting (details of which have already been posted on this page).
3. Ms. Simpson and Ms. Hoffman both noted that there has been a lot of correspondence. They have been trying to respond to the correspondence but have decided that they will not be responding right now as they believe that their energies would be better spent addressing the problems that have been raised. They advised that they heard and understand the problem loud and clear and ask that those of us affected to give them some breathing room so that they can work on addressing the issues. They will be discussing grandfathering the 2015 and 2014 years although Health Canada is not in a position to make any promises as substantial decision making power lies with the provinces. (In our opinion, at this time there may be more benefit in educating the Ministers of Health in your province.) It is expected that the meeting with the provincial ministries will take place before the middle of September. Ms. Hoffman and Ms. Simpson advised that they will report to us no later than the end of September.


Please continue to voice your concerns against this and please contact your minister of health.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
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Those who are affected and will be affected by this may also benefit by educating their ministers of health about the implications of this decision:

Canada Minister of health:

Rona Ambrose
[email protected]

Ontario Minister of Health and Long-Term Care:

Dr. Eric Hoskins
[email protected]

Ontario Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care

Dipika Damerla
[email protected]


The president of Medical Association of Canada:

Dr. Chris Simpson:
[email protected]


BC Minister of health:

[email protected]

BC Deputy Minister of health:
[email protected]

Manitoba ministor of health:

Sharon Blady
[email protected]

Manitoba deputy minister of health:

Karen Herd
[email protected]

Alberta Minister of health:

Sarah Hoffman
[email protected]

Albeta Deputy Minister of health:

Dr. Carl Amrhein
[email protected]


Newfoundland and Labrador Minister of health:

Steve Kent
[email protected]

Quebec Minister of Health and Social Services:

Gaétan Barrette
[email protected]

Saskatchewan Minister of Health:

Hon. Dustin Duncan
[email protected]
 
IMHO writing to the federal minister herself is less useful than writing to the provincial ministers.
(1) a letter to a federal minister is normally sent to the department for reply and you would get a standard reply written by the department.
(2) with an election underway, the federal government is a caretaker government. my impression is the federal minister would not make any significant decisions on something under the minister's control.

as already noted above, the people at health canada are these:
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
also, does anyone know "as of (what month) in 2017"? seems so vague

Danli77,

Please email the people I posted above and explain your concern and how it's affecting us in residency now. WE HAVE TO MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD!!!! Don't let this pass!

Encourage everyone you know to email as well. CC everyone!
 
IMHO writing to the federal minister herself is less useful than writing to the provincial ministers.
(1) a letter to a federal minister is normally sent to the department for reply and you would get a standard reply written by the department.
(2) with an election underway, the federal government is a caretaker government. my impression is the federal minister would not make any significant decisions on something under the minister's control.

as already noted above, the people at health canada are these:
[email protected]
[email protected]

There's a meeting between health canada and health ministers in september. We HAVE to educate the ministers of health in all provinces about this. It doesn't hurt to CC the federal minister. I don't even care if this goes to the prime minister himself. We have to stop this from being implemented.
 
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