Can't believe this isnt a bigger issue!!!!

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Those costs will keep rising if paul is president because he has no problem with companies polluting our air and water. He also wants to get rid of medicare and if you watched the debates he is perfectly content with letting uninsured patients die.

Wow, you are a real intelligent one there. Intellectual giants like you don't seem to grasp the concept of personal freedom and responsibility. Not everyone agrees with the concept of personal and economic liberty, but any smart person knows that it is just a philosophical difference at the core. Your rebuttal of sound money completely demonstrates your ignorance, as if flaming some stupid talking point from a poorly moderated debate didn't already...

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He actually wants to allow competing currencies.
He wants to get rid of FEDERAL student loans.

Why do you hold such a strong position when you haven't even taken the time to learn what those who you criticize actually stand for?



You again misunderstand his positions. Also, I am not sure why you are bringing Paul up in response to my posts considering I haven't said anything about him. That aside, I'll respond for the sake of clearing up misunderstanding.

Paul believes in property rights. He believes that pollution will be taken care of by property right laws and contractual law. If someone pollutes your land or water, surely you will sue them and surely it is illegal if you didn't allow it. Maybe he is right, maybe he is not, but I don't see how the cost of healthcare will rise so much because of it.

He wants to get rid of medicare- I am not sure why that is an inherently evil position considering the financial state of the program and projections.

As for letting uninsured patients die- he believes the market will take care of those that are truly needed. Just as it used to. It really is ironic how people are unwilling to put a price on life. I am sorry if it is a hard reality to accept, but life is value, just like money is and just like time is. There might come a point where the life just isn't worth it- in fact there are most certainly points where saving one life might well hurt the lives or even destroy the lives of many others. That is just how things are- nothing is perfect and covering it up doesn't actually solve anything.

For example, if there were somehow a procedure that could save some person, but would cost taxpayers $1 million , do you think it is worth it? $10 million? $100 million? $1 billion? World GDP? Clearly there is a point where it just doesn't make sense.

All that aside, how many doctors or medical professionals do you know that have so little compassion that they will let someone bleed to death on their ER floor? There is a faith aspect in people and historically, during times of reduced government support, the market HAS stepped up and stepped up big. Arguably more efficiently and effectively than even government laws currently do. Just take a look at philanthropy numbers from some of the freest markets in the world- Japan during the Meiji restoration, Britain for a few decades in the 1800s, etc.

Are you kidding that you haven't said anything about him? read the 1st page of this thread. And its clear you subscribe to this Austrian economics crap. Getting rid of federal student loans would be disastrous. What makes you think banks will be willing the dish out money to pay for peoples education. They haven't been giving out loans for small businesses to stay afloat or people to buy homes.

This article sums up paul's position clearly.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-blueprint-for-balancing-u-s-budget-view.html

He doesn't care if companies dump in our water and air. It doesnt take a genius to realize that tainted air and water creates health problems and there have been numerous studies to support that. This isn't stuff companies regulate themselves. Even since the industrial revolution the only time pollution has been under control is when countries have stepped in to regulate it.

And getting rid of medicare would leave many seniors without health insurance. You think private insurance companies are going to be willing to insure them. Free market in health care is a bad idea and inherently evil. There are many ways to make medicare solvent like raising taxes on the wealthy, who have done pretty well since the last decade. We can stop spending money in all these foreign entanglements which paul supports. One thing i dont understand is why as a pre-pharm you would support medicare cuts. Health care would take a huge hit and that wouldn't bode well for pharmacists who are seeing their jobs already in jeopardy because of saturation and all these chains trying to save money.

Draconian spending cuts might seem like a good idea but when you look at what's being cut it would hurt our economy which is pretty much on life support as it is.
 
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Wow, you are a real intelligent one there. Intellectual giants like you don't seem to grasp the concept of personal freedom and responsibility. Not everyone agrees with the concept of personal and economic liberty, but any smart person knows that it is just a philosophical difference at the core. Your rebuttal of sound money completely demonstrates your ignorance, as if flaming some stupid talking point from a poorly moderated debate didn't already...

Personal responsibility and freedom is fine with me but what ron paul wants to do is overboard. His economic policies are more fitting of a third world country and not a first world democracy like ours. But go a head and vote for him. Its a democracy. As a pharmacist, his cuts will hit you harder than it will me. Good luck with declining salaries. I bet if it were up to ron paul there would be no pharmacists. People should be able to buy what ever they want right. Why should some govt bureaucrat tell them that they need a pharmacist to dispense it to them? That's what personal liberty is all about. :thumbup:
 
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Under IBR, loan balances increase every year if your income is low compared to the loan. It is common sense. If you are only paying $6,000/year on the loan but it is accruing $15,000 in interest per year, this is called negative amortization.. If i was to pay back my loan in full after graduation, I would pay about 260k. If I chose 25 year IBR, and followed a defensive tax strategy during the forgiveness period, I will only end up paying around 130k. These amounts vary, depending on a number of factors, but the bottom line is, you can benefit from government forgiveness depending on the time frames, income, hours worked, interest rates, and loan balances. Who knows, maybe when I get out I would want to work 40 hours/week and pay back my loans immediately. Or, most likely, it would be beneficial to take advantage of forgiveness options.

All of that 260k is from federal student loans?
 
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

don't necessarily believe everything the movies say, but this i absolutely agree with: capitalism is a system based on infinite growth on a planet with finite resources
Capitalism is a system based on feedback and voluntary action. The finite resources argument isn't a strong one given glaring examples such as oil, which was virtually worthless to humans only centuries ago, yet once its use was discovered, we suddenly had many more "resources". It isn't as straightforward as what zeitgeist might have one believe and that really isn't a good source for strong or realistic economic theory.

Are you kidding that you haven't said anything about him? read the 1st page of this thread. And its clear you subscribe to this Austrian economics crap.
Care to show me one post where I mentioned the Austrian school or Ron Paul before my response to your post?

I am not here to butt-heads politically- I can care less about the talking points. If you want to do that, find someone else to do it with. If you want to logically discuss economic theory, etc. in a respectful way then I am all ears.

Oh and I posted a Milton Friedman video a page back- not exactly Austrian, huh?

Getting rid of federal student loans would be disastrous. What makes you think banks will be willing the dish out money to pay for peoples education. They haven't been giving out loans for small businesses to stay afloat or people to buy homes.
Banks would make loans on the profit motive. You can't use the current situation as an explanation for not lending- they aren't lending to anyone (ironically because of a bubble fueled by similar easy money policies in housing as you seem to currently support in education) because of the nature of the market and Fed policy.

This article sums up paul's position clearly.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-blueprint-for-balancing-u-s-budget-view.html

He doesn't care if companies dump in our water and air. It doesnt take a genius to realize that tainted air and water creates health problems and there have been numerous studies to support that. This isn't stuff companies regulate themselves. Even since the industrial revolution the only time pollution has been under control is when countries have stepped in to regulate it.
I am not sure why you are still trying to get me to defend Paul, but I will say that you clearly do not understand the property rights stances in the Austrian school. Either way, I am not saying I support open pollution or something to counter negative externalities.

And getting rid of medicare would leave many seniors without health insurance. You think private insurance companies are going to be willing to insure them. Free market in health care is a bad idea and inherently evil. There are many ways to make medicare solvent like raising taxes on the wealthy, who have done pretty well since the last decade.
Even with massive increases on the wealthy (and at some point you do run into the Laffer curve problem), it can't be solvent infinitely due to its strong reliance on population growth and employment growth. Longer lifespans also do not help.

As for private coverage- this is really something that needs to be slowly phased out and yes, in that case coverage would increase over time. Unfortunately, with the pushback, it probably won't happen- until all the money is gone and the future is stuck with the burden. Sorry, but I am not okay with government fiat insurance for all seniors so that the next generation is born into massive debt.

We can stop spending money in all these foreign entanglements which paul supports.
And herein lies the clearest indication of your ignorance. Paul has undoubtedly been the most anti-war and anti-military-interventionist on the Presidential debate stage FOR BOTH PARTIES for DECADES. The guy wants out of Iraq (which he voted against), wants to pull out of Afghanistan, and out of most other countries (if not all) where we have bases and especially where we are not wanted- Saudi Arabia, Japan, etc. etc. He has publicly criticized most of the GOP and the Democrats including Obama for their relatively pro-war/interventionist agendas.

One thing i dont understand is why as a pre-pharm you would support medicare cuts. Health care would take a huge hit and that wouldn't bode well for pharmacists who are seeing their jobs already in jeopardy because of saturation and all these chains trying to save money.
Well for one, I think medicare hurts pharmacy. Second, I think it hurts the overall health of this nation. Third, it hurts economically. Fourth, I do not believe in the principle of borrowing from my children even before they are born so that I can have some luxury.

Draconian spending cuts might seem like a good idea but when you look at what's being cut it would hurt our economy which is pretty much on life support as it is.
It is arguable. All government money comes from the private sector, after all. A better debt outlook can also be beneficial (Moody's has hinted at a rating cut again recently, by the way). I am not taking any particular position here, but saying it is most definitely arguable and any old spending won't cut it- especially things like the "stimulus". Certain things can also be cut with little negative economic effect.

I suggest that before you try to somewhat aggressively and at times disrespectfully argue anyone's points whether it be mine or a politicians or an economists or whatever, that you actually learn that person's position. Not doing so only hurts your ethos.
 
Personal responsibility and freedom is fine with me but what ron paul wants to do is overboard. His economic policies are more fitting of a third world country and not a first world democracy like ours. But go a head and vote for him. Its a democracy. As a pharmacist, his cuts will hit you harder than it will me. Good luck with declining salaries. I bet if it were up to ron paul there would be no pharmacists. People should be able to buy what ever they want right. Why should some govt bureaucrat tell them that they need a pharmacist to dispense it to them? That's what personal liberty is all about. :thumbup:

Exactly, if your argument against Paul and his policies centers around how it would affect our profession and the other medical professions in general, I'm with you there. Self interest, pure and simple. However other than that and not to defend Ron Paul, but his economic/monetary policy all in all is light years ahead of anyone else on either side of the aisle -- not "third world" by any stretch. Your initial reference of the "letting the uninsured man die" thing though is just completely asinine and makes you lose credibility.
 
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I don't agree with Ron Paul on many issues, but he does strike me as one of the few politicians who seems completely sincere in his beliefs. He sticks to his guns, even when his positions aren't the most popular. The republican party could certainly pick a worse candidate.
 
Capitalism is a system based on feedback and voluntary action. The finite resources argument isn't a strong one given glaring examples such as oil, which was virtually worthless to humans only centuries ago, yet once its use was discovered, we suddenly had many more "resources". It isn't as straightforward as what zeitgeist might have one believe and that really isn't a good source for strong or realistic economic theory.


Care to show me one post where I mentioned the Austrian school or Ron Paul before my response to your post?

I am not here to butt-heads politically- I can care less about the talking points. If you want to do that, find someone else to do it with. If you want to logically discuss economic theory, etc. in a respectful way then I am all ears.

Oh and I posted a Milton Friedman video a page back- not exactly Austrian, huh?


Banks would make loans on the profit motive. You can't use the current situation as an explanation for not lending- they aren't lending to anyone (ironically because of a bubble fueled by similar easy money policies in housing as you seem to currently support in education) because of the nature of the market and Fed policy.


I am not sure why you are still trying to get me to defend Paul, but I will say that you clearly do not understand the property rights stances in the Austrian school. Either way, I am not saying I support open pollution or something to counter negative externalities.


Even with massive increases on the wealthy (and at some point you do run into the Laffer curve problem), it can't be solvent infinitely due to its strong reliance on population growth and employment growth. Longer lifespans also do not help.

As for private coverage- this is really something that needs to be slowly phased out and yes, in that case coverage would increase over time. Unfortunately, with the pushback, it probably won't happen- until all the money is gone and the future is stuck with the burden. Sorry, but I am not okay with government fiat insurance for all seniors so that the next generation is born into massive debt.


And herein lies the clearest indication of your ignorance. Paul has undoubtedly been the most anti-war and anti-military-interventionist on the Presidential debate stage FOR BOTH PARTIES for DECADES. The guy wants out of Iraq (which he voted against), wants to pull out of Afghanistan, and out of most other countries (if not all) where we have bases and especially where we are not wanted- Saudi Arabia, Japan, etc. etc. He has publicly criticized most of the GOP and the Democrats including Obama for their relatively pro-war/interventionist agendas.


Well for one, I think medicare hurts pharmacy. Second, I think it hurts the overall health of this nation. Third, it hurts economically. Fourth, I do not believe in the principle of borrowing from my children even before they are born so that I can have some luxury.


It is arguable. All government money comes from the private sector, after all. A better debt outlook can also be beneficial (Moody's has hinted at a rating cut again recently, by the way). I am not taking any particular position here, but saying it is most definitely arguable and any old spending won't cut it- especially things like the "stimulus". Certain things can also be cut with little negative economic effect.

I suggest that before you try to somewhat aggressively and at times disrespectfully argue anyone's points whether it be mine or a politicians or an economists or whatever, that you actually learn that person's position. Not doing so only hurts your ethos.

I'm sorry I phrased that the wrong way. I meant to say i agree with paul on getting rid of foreign aid and war spending. There are issues i agree with him but the issues i disagree with him are far more numerous. And i never called for massive tax increases. I i don't see why getting rid of some of this deductions and going back to clinton tax rates would hurt the rich. Warren buffet wrote an op-ed in the NY times calling for tax increases on the rich. Buffet isn't exactly and far left socialist and a majority of republicans and millionaires agree we need higher taxes for the wealthy. Sometimes i wonder who the republicans in congress are trying to protect by their heavy resistance to tax increases. I think we need shared sacrifice. Its unethical to only ask seniors and the poor the give back.

As for the moody's i can care less what they think. These are the guys that gave lehmans a thumbs up before September 2008.
 
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Exactly, if your argument against Paul and his policies centers around how it would affect our profession and the other medical professions in general, I'm with you there. Self interest, pure and simple. However other than that and not to defend Ron Paul, but his economic/monetary policy all in all is light years ahead of anyone else on either side of the aisle -- not "third world" by any stretch. Your initial reference of the "letting the uninsured man die" thing though is just completely asinine and makes you lose credibility.

It's not self interest at all. Like i said everyone suffers under a paul presidency except the uber rich. Also i didnt stretch anything about his position on uninsured. You should watch that exchange with wolf blitzer. He was pretty clear what his position was. I'm not trying to spin it. He said churches would take care it. I find that laughable.
 
I don't agree with Ron Paul on many issues, but he does strike me as one of the few politicians who seems completely sincere in his beliefs. He sticks to his guns, even when his positions aren't the most popular. The republican party could certainly pick a worse candidate.

There are positions i agree with him on like his policy on wars and israel. Its refreshing to see a republican that doesnt buy in to the neoconservative movement. Unfortunately the positions i disagree with him on far outweigh the ones i do.
 
I'm sorry I phrased that the wrong way. I meant to say i agree with paul on getting rid of foreign aid and war spending. There are issues i agree with him but the issues i disagree with him are far more numerous. And i never called for massive tax increases. I i don't see why getting rid of some of this deductions and going back to clinton tax rates would hurt the rich. Warren buffet wrote an op-ed in the NY times calling for tax increases on the rich. Buffet isn't exactly and far right extremist and a majority of republicans and millionaires agree we need higher taxes for the wealthy. Sometimes i wonder who the republicans in congress are trying to protect by their heavy resistance to tax increases. I think we need shared sacrifice. Its unethical to only ask seniors and the poor the give back.
There is an argument that the rich already pay their fair share. It is a thin line and an arguable one for sure though. I am all for closing the loopholes though. One thing I want to comment on in this response though is you wondering who the republicans are trying to protect. I can answer that and the answer is the same for the majority of republicans and democrats on the hill in any policy they support- they are there to protect the special interests that contribute to their campaigns. We have a bought government.

As for the moody's i can care less what they think. These are the guys that gave lehmans a thumbs up before September 2008.
I don't have much faith in Moody's either. Unfortunately, the market still seems to care somewhat and for that reason if we care about treasury sales, we need to care about Moody's and company too.
 
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It's not self interest at all. Like i said everyone suffers under a paul presidency except the uber rich. Also i didnt stretch anything about his position on uninsured. You should watch that exchange with wolf blitzer. He was pretty clear what his position was. I'm not trying to spin it. He said churches would take care it. I find that laughable.

The self interest I was referring to has to do with what a Ron Paul presidency would mean for the entire medical industry -- doctors, pharmacists, etc... and again it is ridiculous to think that everyone would suffer under a Paul presidency except the uber rich, who interestingly oppose Ron Paul waaaaaaaaaay more than any other group. Do your homework on that one. I know someone else already called you out on a point by point basis, but you should definitely get your facts straight before criticizing candidates/ideologies/etc.
 
There is an argument that the rich already pay their fair share. It is a thin line and an arguable one for sure though. I am all for closing the loopholes though. One thing I want to comment on in this response though is you wondering who the republicans are trying to protect. I can answer that and the answer is the same for the majority of republicans and democrats on the hill in any policy they support- they are there to protect the special interests that contribute to their campaigns. We have a bought government.


I don't have much faith in Moody's either. Unfortunately, the market still seems to care somewhat and for that reason if we care about treasury sales, we need to care about Moody's and company too.

There's a bigger argument that the "job creators" aren't paying their fair share. The gap between the rich and poor as increased over the last years. The rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer. People have fallen out of the middle class. The top 1% control 35% of the wealth and the the 20% control 50% of the wealth. Recent polls have shown that a majority of millionaires support tax increases on the wealthy. Billionaires like warren buffett and bill gates are calling for higher taxes on the wealthy. I agree both parties bow to special interests but this whole resistance on any revenue increases by the republican is just some false ideology that has been proven to not work.

Edit: As for treasury sales, The chinese dagong agency downgraded us numerous times and they still buy are debt. Investors will still buy american debt. You can count on it.
 
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The self interest I was referring to has to do with what a Ron Paul presidency would mean for the entire medical industry -- doctors, pharmacists, etc... and again it is ridiculous to think that everyone would suffer under a Paul presidency except the uber rich, who interestingly oppose Ron Paul waaaaaaaaaay more than any other group. Do your homework on that one. I know someone else already called you out on a point by point basis, but you should definitely get your facts straight before criticizing candidates/ideologies/etc.

And my opposition to paul has nothing to do with "self-interest". I just think its bad economics. His plan has would benefit the rich because they would not have the worry about regulations and they would get tax cuts. But that's enough of my "talking points." Give me of an example of how the poor/ middle class would benefit.
 
There's a bigger argument that the "job creators" aren't paying their fair share. The gap between the rich and poor as increased over the last years. The rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer. People have fallen out of the middle class. The top 1% control 35% of the wealth and the the 20% control 50% of the wealth. Recent polls have shown that a majority of millionaires support tax increases on the wealthy. Billionaires like warren buffett and bill gates are calling for higher taxes on the wealthy. I agree both parties bow to special interests but this whole resistance on any revenue increases by the republican is just some false ideology that has been proven to not work.

Edit: As for treasury sales, The chinese dagong agency downgraded us numerous times and they still buy are debt. Investors will still buy american debt. You can count on it.
Increased taxes won't necessarily solve income inequality. Also, some government programs actively promote income inequality. I am more concerned with reduced income mobility, jobs, etc. than with income inequality. That aside, while revenue increases are needed, spending cuts are also needed. Deficit spending and inflation worsens the debt just as much as not bringing in revenue does.

And on buying American debt- my point is Moody's still has an impact. The Chinese aren't the only ones that buy our debt either so they are not the only ones that matter (in fact, they have slowed their purchases recently). The number one holder of US debt is currently the Federal Reserve.
 
Increased taxes won't necessarily solve income inequality. Also, some government programs actively promote income inequality. I am more concerned with reduced income mobility, jobs, etc. than with income inequality. That aside, while revenue increases are needed, spending cuts are also needed. Deficit spending and inflation worsens the debt just as much as not bringing in revenue does.

And on buying American debt- my point is Moody's still has an impact. The Chinese aren't the only ones that buy our debt either so they are not the only ones that matter (in fact, they have slowed their purchases recently). The number one holder of US debt is currently the Federal Reserve.

It won't help income equality but it will with our long term deficit problem. The only way to stop income equality stimulate the economy short term. Both conservative and liberal economists agree with that. All obama and bush did was give tax cuts instead of directly stimulating the economy. This idea that the federal govt shouldn't have a role in that is ludicrous especially since the first person we will blame when things go south is the president.
 
All that aside, how many doctors or medical professionals do you know that have so little compassion that they will let someone bleed to death on their ER floor?

I lied earlier when I said I would sign out. This site is like crack for me.


That is actually a major problem with our current system. The cost of preventative medicine is born by the patient (assuming no insurance of course), but emergency care is largely a loss for most hospitals. However preventative care is much, much cheaper than emergency care. My point? A diabetic patient can receive a lifetime of pharmacotherapy for the cost of an amputation, but no hospital is going to give away free medications to prevent needing to do an emergency surgery. It is just one of the many ways that our system is broken, IMO.
 
I'm sorry I phrased that the wrong way. I meant to say i agree with paul on getting rid of foreign aid and war spending. There are issues i agree with him but the issues i disagree with him are far more numerous. And i never called for massive tax increases. I i don't see why getting rid of some of this deductions and going back to clinton tax rates would hurt the rich. Warren buffet wrote an op-ed in the NY times calling for tax increases on the rich. Buffet isn't exactly and far left socialist and a majority of republicans and millionaires agree we need higher taxes for the wealthy. Sometimes i wonder who the republicans in congress are trying to protect by their heavy resistance to tax increases. I think we need shared sacrifice. Its unethical to only ask seniors and the poor the give back.

As for the moody's i can care less what they think. These are the guys that gave lehmans a thumbs up before September 2008.

Just wanted to add one thing: You could change the income tax rate to 90% for the top wage earners and Warren Buffet still would not pay any more taxes. He only pays himself 100k/year salary (not in the 1%) and lives off dividends of Berkshire Hathaway.

That is the problem with his stance. He is lying and would never pay more taxes under his purported plan while most other rich people would. He is another person that wants everyone else to pay more taxes while not doing it himself.
 
That is the problem with his stance. He is lying and would never pay more taxes under his purported plan while most other rich people would. He is another person that wants everyone else to pay more taxes while not doing it himself.

You are incorrect. Please do your research before you spit this type of nonsense on sdn. :thumbdown:
 
Owlegard, I'll respond to your post(s)- hopefully tomorrow; thought you'd be away so I didn't bother to respond yet and have some tests of my own coming up :p

All obama and bush did was give tax cuts instead of directly stimulating the economy. This idea that the federal govt shouldn't have a role in that is ludicrous especially since the first person we will blame when things go south is the president.
1) tax cuts can stimulate an economy.
2) The idea that the Fed govt shouldn't have a role is NOT ludicrous. It doesn't matter who we blame- political fingerpointing is far from a haven for intellectual honesty. The fact of the matter is that the government does not produce anything- anything it takes is from the private sector through taxes and the often forgotten tax, inflation. One of the few viable arguments for the pro-stimulus crowd is that government can force spending when others won't spend and it can increase the velocity of money if need be. Then there is the whole monetary side aspect, which too is arguable, but might have a role. Either way, these definitive statements that the extreme of one side or the extreme of the other side is ludicrous is, well that's what is ludicrous.
 
Owlegard, I'll respond to your post(s)- hopefully tomorrow; thought you'd be away so I didn't bother to respond yet and have some tests of my own coming up :p

:lol:

Fair enough. You should never believe me when I say I am logging out for an extended period of time. I only successfully log out during finals; even then I sneak on a bit, I just refrain from posting. :laugh:

It is refreshing to discuss meaty issues in a collegial environment. :thumbup:
 
You are incorrect. Please do your research before you spit this type of nonsense on sdn. :thumbdown:

If you raise all taxes on people making above $1mil as proposed by Buffett, he will be hurt less than people that make $1mil the old way (actual salary).

Again, he is mostly taxed at the dividend rate of 15% and someone with a $1mil salary is taxed at 35%. So, if you raise taxes across the board by 5%, then he would be taxed at 20% while the person with an actual salary would be taxed at 40%. (This is what he says in his Op-ed: raise the taxes a certain amount across the board regardless of what the tax actually is).

Besides, he also lies about how much he pays in taxes. Since he runs Berkshire Hathaway, he is actually taxed something like 50% on his income from there (35% corporate tax on profit and then another 15% on dividends paid).

Sorry if I did not convey my actual thoughts clearly before...
 
Just wanted to add one thing: You could change the income tax rate to 90% for the top wage earners and Warren Buffet still would not pay any more taxes. He only pays himself 100k/year salary (not in the 1%) and lives off dividends of Berkshire Hathaway.

That is the problem with his stance. He is lying and would never pay more taxes under his purported plan while most other rich people would. He is another person that wants everyone else to pay more taxes while not doing it himself.

What are you talking about? That is the exact inequility he is talking about. Warren Buffet has said he doesnt mind if capital gains were taxed at 39%. Investors will still want to invest. Warren buffett didnt even try for deductions and he still pays less of his income in taxes than his cleaning lady. Raising taxes on the wealthy and eliminating loop holes are the fiscally responsible thing to do.
 
Owlegard, I'll respond to your post(s)- hopefully tomorrow; thought you'd be away so I didn't bother to respond yet and have some tests of my own coming up :p


1) tax cuts can stimulate an economy.
2) The idea that the Fed govt shouldn't have a role is NOT ludicrous. It doesn't matter who we blame- political fingerpointing is far from a haven for intellectual honesty. The fact of the matter is that the government does not produce anything- anything it takes is from the private sector through taxes and the often forgotten tax, inflation. One of the few viable arguments for the pro-stimulus crowd is that government can force spending when others won't spend and it can increase the velocity of money if need be. Then there is the whole monetary side aspect, which too is arguable, but might have a role. Either way, these definitive statements that the extreme of one side or the extreme of the other side is ludicrous is, well that's what is ludicrous.

Tax cuts havent stimulated the economy for the last 10 years. In fact things have gotten worse and we have a huge deficit. When bush came into office he had a surplus. He took that and borrowed another 1.4 trillion and gave it to the wealthy. If he had given it to middle or lower class folks it would have been called welfare. Tax cuts only stimulate the economy if they go to the lower class because they spend every dollar they make and they don't hoard cash like millionaires.
 
What are you talking about? That is the exact inequility he is talking about. Warren Buffet has said he doesnt mind if capital gains were taxed at 39%. Investors will still want to invest. Warren buffett didnt even try for deductions and he still pays less of his income in taxes than his cleaning lady. Raising taxes on the wealthy and eliminating loop holes are the fiscally responsible thing to do.

The one big problem I have is that anyone filing a tax return can ALWAYS send in more money than they actually owe. Yet, they never do. All they do is talk about making everyone do it. Why not lead by example instead of just flapping your gums?

There has been allowance for gifts to the Treasury since 1843. So, people have been able to give extra money/taxes to the government even before the very first income tax during the Civil War.
 
Tax cuts havent stimulated the economy for the last 10 years. In fact things have gotten worse and we have a huge deficit. When bush came into office he had a surplus. He took that and borrowed another 1.4 trillion and gave it to the wealthy. If he had given it to middle or lower class folks it would have been called welfare. Tax cuts only stimulate the economy if they go to the lower class because they spend every dollar they make and they don't hoard cash like millionaires.

Just quoting the DNC talking points does not make it true... Besides this is not a politics discussion, it is an amicable mish-mash of probable answers to the #1 problem hurting our country.

Personally, I have greatly enjoyed the gentlemanly well-thought out discussions between Owle and PharmEcon. :thumbup:
 
Just quoting the DNC talking points does not make it true... Besides this is not a politics discussion, it is an amicable mish-mash of probable answers to the #1 problem hurting our country.

Personally, I have greatly enjoyed the gentlemanly well-thought out discussions between Owle and PharmEcon. :thumbup:

Amazing, you accuse me of making talking points after making some about warren buffet. My position on taxes has been echoed by many nobel prize winning economists, billionaires, millionaires, and republicans. How is it a talking point?
 
And my opposition to paul has nothing to do with "self-interest". I just think its bad economics. His plan has would benefit the rich because they would not have the worry about regulations and they would get tax cuts. But that's enough of my "talking points." Give me of an example of how the poor/ middle class would benefit.

How the poor / middle class benefit:

1. Foreign policy -- goes without saying, decreasing the military-industrial complex saves money, saves lives, etc. If you have ever listened to a word Dr. Paul has said, this is his first priority, he would use the savings here to take care of the people at home and then take on his economic policy changes gradually.

2. Reduction of the Prison-Industrial Complex and Eradication of the "War on Drugs". This would free, what, 1 million, primarily lower-class and minority individuals? Check. Save tax money from the middle-class too? Check.

3. The Elimination/Reduction of Bubbles -- no more tinkering with interest rates to create these bubbles (tech / commodity / real estate / etc.) that eventually the middle class has to take the bill for. Moderating / virtually eliminating the bull---- artificial "business cycle" helps the middle class.

4. The uber rich don't TRULY pay jacks--- right now, and guess what? They never have and never will under Republicans or Democrats. Goldman Sachs paid the equivalent of 1% taxes in the year they hijacked all the loot b/c they deferred taxes abroad, etc. How does a Ron Paul presidency really save them any more money? In fact it actually hurts them b/c the elimination of CRONY capitalism hurts the uber rich faaaaaar more than it hurts the middle/lower class. Don't confuse true capitalism with the perverted, bailout-happy version of capitalism that dominates now.

5. Protection of the borders and reduction of the welfare state. Reducing the welfare state and not allowing illegals medical benefits / citizenship would help stop the "invasion" of sorts. If Americans were paid a better rate to do the sh---y jobs and there was a phase out of the alternative (suck the welfare t-- indefinitely), there would be a market for these jobs. If the economy was stronger, which it would become, and the moral hazards were phased out, immigration would not be a problem, in fact it would be healthy. You can't just pick and choose parts of this -- you have to look at it holistically.

Some people like yourself obviously have never read or apparently just don't understand the Constitution at all. You think the federal government is the only way things can get done. You don't get that there is NOTHING in the constitution about the FEDERAL government being involved in many of these things. You neglect that the STATE and the FREE MARKET are the ones that should be involved with many of these things.

Again if your point was that Ron Paul would mess up the barriers to entry and reduction/elimination of federal programs that keep the medical professions thriving and bringing in the $$$$ (thank you GW Bush for Medicare D!!!), you have an extremely good reason not to support Paul. Otherwise you are just not very bright...

Advice: Do you homework on the candidates better, stop reciting the DNC/NPR talking points verbatim, keep an open mind, and read the Constitution sometime followed by a book on Austrian Economics.
 
How the poor / middle class benefit:

1. Foreign policy -- goes without saying, decreasing the military-industrial complex saves money, saves lives, etc. If you have ever listened to a word Dr. Paul has said, this is his first priority, he would use the savings here to take care of the people at home and then take on his economic policy changes gradually.

2. Reduction of the Prison-Industrial Complex and Eradication of the "War on Drugs". This would free, what, 1 million, primarily lower-class and minority individuals? Check. Save tax money from the middle-class too? Check.

3. The Elimination/Reduction of Bubbles -- no more tinkering with interest rates to create these bubbles (tech / commodity / real estate / etc.) that eventually the middle class has to take the bill for. Moderating / virtually eliminating the bull---- artificial "business cycle" helps the middle class.

4. The uber rich don't TRULY pay jacks--- right now, and guess what? They never have and never will under Republicans or Democrats. Goldman Sachs paid the equivalent of 1% taxes in the year they hijacked all the loot b/c they deferred taxes abroad, etc. How does a Ron Paul presidency really save them any more money? In fact it actually hurts them b/c the elimination of CRONY capitalism hurts the uber rich faaaaaar more than it hurts the middle/lower class. Don't confuse true capitalism with the perverted, bailout-happy version of capitalism that dominates now.

5. Protection of the borders and reduction of the welfare state. Reducing the welfare state and not allowing illegals medical benefits / citizenship would help stop the "invasion" of sorts. If Americans were paid a better rate to do the sh---y jobs and there was a phase out of the alternative (suck the welfare t-- indefinitely), there would be a market for these jobs. If the economy was stronger, which it would become, and the moral hazards were phased out, immigration would not be a problem, in fact it would be healthy. You can't just pick and choose parts of this -- you have to look at it holistically.

Some people like yourself obviously have never read or apparently just don't understand the Constitution at all. You think the federal government is the only way things can get done. You don't get that there is NOTHING in the constitution about the FEDERAL government being involved in many of these things. You neglect that the STATE and the FREE MARKET are the ones that should be involved with many of these things.

Again if your point was that Ron Paul would mess up the barriers to entry and reduction/elimination of federal programs that keep the medical professions thriving and bringing in the $$$$ (thank you GW Bush for Medicare D!!!), you have an extremely good reason not to support Paul. Otherwise you are just not very bright...

Advice: Do you homework on the candidates better, stop reciting the DNC/NPR talking points verbatim, keep an open mind, and read the Constitution sometime followed by a book on Austrian Economics.

I don't think you've read some of paul's position clearly. While there are some cuts i agree with like foreign policy, some of the regulations his willing to cut will lead to job losses in the private and public sector. This idea that getting rid of regulations will cause companies to hire and stimulate the economy is just idiotic. Regulations have the opposite effect paul is taking about. And I've read the constitution and it has a general welfare clause and and interstate commerce clause. Something that conservatives dont seem to grasp. The founding fathers didn't want a powerless govt like some conservatives want. They tried that with the articles of confederation and it didn't work. Also i'm very familiar with the austrian school of ecomics. I think the works of keynes, hayek and even karl marx's critique of capitalism all have merits. You just can't stick to the pure for anything. You need to strike a balance. Something ron paul and all of his supporters don't understand.
 
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I don't think you've read some of paul's position clearly. While there are some cuts i agree with like foreign policy, some of the regulations his willing to cut will lead to job losses in the private and public sector. This idea that getting rid of regulations will cause companies to hire and stimulate the economy is just idiotic. Regulations have the opposite effect paul is taking about. And I've read the constitution and it has a general welfare clause and and interstate commerce clause. Something that conservatives dont seem to grasp. The founding fathers didn't want a powerless govt like some conservatives want. They tried that with the articles of confederation and it didn't work. Also i'm very familiar with the austrian school of ecomics. I think the works of keynes, hayek and even karl marx's critique of capitalism all have merits. You just can't stick to the pure for anything. You need to strike a balance. Something ron paul and all of his supporters don't understand.

Well I take it you can't refute those 5 things on a point-by-point basis, but pick regulation (which I did not mention in the 5 points and I find to be his weakest position) to talk about. Of course if you take the libertarian philosophy to the extreme it is ridiculous, just as anything other ideology is. Ron Paul is not running for dictator, but president which means there would be some balance. Regardless of more or less regulation, jobs have been cut, so what exactly is your point?

You by-the-book liberals crack me up, how because of a few positions on regulation you are willing to dismiss a guy who could really bring about positive change (as his priorities suggest) even just by making these things national dialogue during the campaign and you endorse some figurehead like Obama who really is just Bush Part II (same foreign policy, same civil liberties policies, even MORE wall street support, etc. etc.).

I'm not even saying to support Paul, but liberals being so outwardly dismissive and hypocritical of a genuine guy like that over a few relatively minor issues in the grand scheme of things, which are low on his priority list, is just ridiculous...
 
Well I take it you can't refute those 5 things on a point-by-point basis, but pick regulation (which I did not mention in the 5 points and I find to be his weakest position) to talk about. Of course if you take the libertarian philosophy to the extreme it is ridiculous, just as anything other ideology is. Ron Paul is not running for dictator, but president which means there would be some balance. Regardless of more or less regulation, jobs have been cut, so what exactly is your point?

You by-the-book liberals crack me up, how because of a few positions on regulation you are willing to dismiss a guy who could really bring about positive change (as his priorities suggest) even just by making these things national dialogue during the campaign and you endorse some figurehead like Obama who really is just Bush Part II (same foreign policy, same civil liberties policies, even MORE wall street support, etc. etc.).

I'm not even saying to support Paul, but liberals being so outwardly dismissive and hypocritical of a genuine guy like that over a few relatively minor issues in the grand scheme of things, which are low on his priority list, is just ridiculous...

I didn't refute it all because there were things i agree on. things like protecting the border and ending the war on drugs. I think by now you would get my point. I think extreme austerity measures, cutting spending, and ending regulations will only prolong the recession. And i love how you assume im a liberal. I would probably considered one by the ultra right wing fringe on this country but im pretty moderate. I'm not dismissing paul based on few positions. His overall economic positions would send us into a severe recession. During the great depression we didn't cut our way into prosperity. Exactly opposite. We spent 120% of our GDP. What paul is proposing are just unrealistic ideas from a senile old man.
 
The one big problem I have is that anyone filing a tax return can ALWAYS send in more money than they actually owe. Yet, they never do. All they do is talk about making everyone do it. Why not lead by example instead of just flapping your gums?

There has been allowance for gifts to the Treasury since 1843. So, people have been able to give extra money/taxes to the government even before the very first income tax during the Civil War.

You are not wrong, but there is a difference between wanting to send in more of your own money and wanting a fiscal policy that would result in ending the deficit. Buffett can send in as much of his own money as he wants, but I doubt he wants to personally end the deficit all by himself. :laugh:
 
That is actually a major problem with our current system. The cost of preventative medicine is born by the patient (assuming no insurance of course), but emergency care is largely a loss for most hospitals. However preventative care is much, much cheaper than emergency care. My point? A diabetic patient can receive a lifetime of pharmacotherapy for the cost of an amputation, but no hospital is going to give away free medications to prevent needing to do an emergency surgery. It is just one of the many ways that our system is broken, IMO.

:bow:

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The state insurance plan in AZ just dropped anyone young without kids. So, if I were poor, they wouldn't pay for preventative care... but if I popped out a kid, they would. Or after years of no preventative care, they would pay for my serious health problems when I get old - which will cost exponentially :)laugh:) more than preventative care would have.

The idea that preventative care costs less than fixing the problems that develop afterwards is the whole idea behind WIC programs & insurance for poor pregnant women/children. Why can't we get the rest of the healthcare system to figure it out?

Try as I might, with the way the system runs today (or at least with a majority of it intact), I can't think of a viable way to incentivise preventative care over reactive care. This is translating directly to the primary care shortage. Solving the incentive problem, in my opinion, will require a paradigm shift in how we think about and pay for healthcare.

You guys are intelligent & well-educated, so I'm wondering - does anyone have a proposed solution to the incentive problem facing the US healthcare system?

Personally, I have greatly enjoyed the gentlemanly well-thought out discussions between Owle and PharmEcon. :thumbup:

I agree. I'm glad the thread's gotten away from hysterics. You guys have got me thinkin'. :D
 
I didn't refute it all because there were things i agree on. things like protecting the border and ending the war on drugs. I think by now you would get my point. I think extreme austerity measures, cutting spending, and ending regulations will only prolong the recession. And i love how you assume im a liberal. I would probably considered one by the ultra right wing fringe on this country but im pretty moderate. I'm not dismissing paul based on few positions. His overall economic positions would send us into a severe recession. During the great depression we didn't cut our way into prosperity. Exactly opposite. We spent 120% of our GDP. What paul is proposing are just unrealistic ideas from a senile old man.

You neglect to understand WHY the Great Depression was caused. See point #3. It should have never occurred and would not have under Paul's policies. You seem incapable of / unwilling to look at the WHOLE picture. If you only look at bits and pieces, yeah with all that is messed up in our country today if you adopt the wrong bits and pieces of Paul's policies it could be absolutely horrendous, which I do think is the best argument against Paul. The market is artificially propped up because of "moderate" policies delaying a market correction (or "recession"), yeah just print your way out of it because America will never have to pay for it...

BTW I assume you are a liberal because you echo the liberal talking points, and I'm not the only one on here that thought that. I get your point but find it hypocritical how people who agree on so many paramount issues even if they don't want to support him can be so disrespectful ("senile"?) towards virtually the ONLY authentic candidate on either side of the aisle bringing up many of these HUGE issues for the last 30 years. Keep preventing correction/recession, but you know America will have to pick up the tab someday...

If you think America has gone too far to save and you want to just get yours in the mean time then cash out, then I understand your viewpoint. Otherwise you are just sticking your head in the sand.

Never thought I would end up defending Ron Paul like that. I feel like Jon Stewart. LOL.
 
You neglect to understand WHY the Great Depression was caused. See point #3. It should have never occurred and would not have under Paul's policies. You seem incapable of / unwilling to look at the WHOLE picture. If you only look at bits and pieces, yeah with all that is messed up in our country today if you adopt the wrong bits and pieces of Paul's policies it could be absolutely horrendous, which I do think is the best argument against Paul. The market is artificially propped up because of "moderate" policies delaying a market correction (or "recession"), yeah just print your way out of it because America will never have to pay for it...

BTW I assume you are a liberal because you echo the liberal talking points, and I'm not the only one on here that thought that. I get your point but find it hypocritical how people who agree on so many paramount issues even if they don't want to support him can be so disrespectful ("senile"?) towards virtually the ONLY authentic candidate on either side of the aisle bringing up many of these HUGE issues for the last 30 years. Keep preventing correction/recession, but you know America will have to pick up the tab someday...

If you think America has gone too far to save and you want to just get yours in the mean time then cash out, then I understand your viewpoint. Otherwise you are just sticking your head in the sand.

Never thought I would end up defending Ron Paul like that. I feel like Jon Stewart. LOL.

Like i said i give him credit for being authentic. I just think his policies would be bad for the country. And what makes you think there wouldn't be booms or busts during his presidency. Everything is cyclical. And i don't understand why you keep dropping this line that everything is about self interest. I've said many times that I think its wrong to balance the budgets on the backs of the poor and elderly neither of which im part of so i don't understand how you can say its about self interest. I believe its possible to have a balanced budget and keep popular social programs. We did in the 90s. It seems like conservatives who were for big govt during reagan and bush administrations are complaining the most.
 
Like i said i give him credit for being authentic. I just think his policies would be bad for the country. And what makes you think there wouldn't be booms or busts during his presidency. Everything is cyclical. And i don't understand why you keep dropping this line that everything is about self interest. I've said many times that I think its wrong to balance the budgets on the backs of the poor and elderly neither of which im part of so i don't understand how you can say its about self interest. I believe its possible to have a balanced budget and keep popular social programs. We did in the 90s. It seems like conservatives who were for big govt during reagan and bush administrations are complaining the most.

1. Read about the business cycle and the role artificially set interest rates play in it. This is not a left or right issue. You'll hear the both the left and right both talking about it.

2. Bush/Clinton/Obama -- you say Po-TATE-o, i say Po-TAHT-o. Republicans outspending Democrats. Slight edge: Democrats, I'll give you that.

3. Self interest refers to the only justification for endorsement of writing continuous checks that America continues to defer the
payment on. Either that or ignorance.

There really are no easy answers and much grey area, I just don't like when people disrespect authentic candidates on either side of the aisle or are overly dismissive, again kinda like the Jon Stewart thing.
 
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Tax cuts havent stimulated the economy for the last 10 years. In fact things have gotten worse and we have a huge deficit. When bush came into office he had a surplus. He took that and borrowed another 1.4 trillion and gave it to the wealthy. If he had given it to middle or lower class folks it would have been called welfare. Tax cuts only stimulate the economy if they go to the lower class because they spend every dollar they make and they don't hoard cash like millionaires.
Correlation does not equal causation ;)

Oh and the last part isn't true.
 
Really. Millinionaires spend every dollar they earn and poor don't. I'm all ears. :)

The majority of rich people (millionaire doesn't necessarily constitute rich anymore depending on location- in some places in California, NY, and elsewhere millionaire is very much middle class) don't just stuff their money in mattresses. They have it in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. Even in a savings account, the money doesn't just sit there. It is then lent out to others.
 
The majority of rich people (millionaire doesn't necessarily constitute rich anymore depending on location- in some places in California, NY, and elsewhere millionaire is very much middle class) don't just stuff their money in mattresses. They have it in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. Even in a savings account, the money doesn't just sit there. It is then lent out to others.

Maybe so but increasing or cutting taxes wont cause them to change their spending habits in anyway. NY state is proof of that. They have had a millionaire's surcharge there and they don't mind.
 
Maybe so but increasing or cutting taxes wont cause them to change their spending habits in anyway. NY state is proof of that. They have had a millionaire's surcharge there and they don't mind.

What are you basing these definitive conclusions on? Do you have the data or studies in front of you or are you just going by your intuition? The Laffer curve exists, most every economist agrees with that, although the tipping point varies by market and is hard to determine.

Historically, removing the incentive to become or be rich has been devastating to jurisdictions that have done it. Our problem isn't going to be solved by making all rich people bleed through their noses. The problem is much more complex and deeper than looking at income statements and saying, "oh hey, this guy has the money, let's steal it."
 
The majority of rich people (millionaire doesn't necessarily constitute rich anymore depending on location- in some places in California, NY, and elsewhere millionaire is very much middle class) don't just stuff their money in mattresses. They have it in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. Even in a savings account, the money doesn't just sit there. It is then lent out to others.

Do you have any information about the trickle-down you're citing here actually working? I have heard magnification numbers, but I haven't observed any of that with the stimuli I've been aware enough to pay attention to.

I have an open mind, but I've only seen information showing the "opposite" (money given to lower / middle class has an immediate impact). Opposite in quotes because it's not quite an accurate word, but I can't think of better.
 
What are you basing these definitive conclusions on? Do you have the data or studies in front of you or are you just going by your intuition? The Laffer curve exists, most every economist agrees with that, although the tipping point varies by market and is hard to determine.

Historically, removing the incentive to become or be rich has been devastating to jurisdictions that have done it. Our problem isn't going to be solved by making all rich people bleed through their noses. The problem is much more complex and deeper than looking at income statements and saying, "oh hey, this guy has the money, let's steal it."

That right there is the sentiment shared by congressional republicans. They think any increase in revenue is a confiscation of wealth. Growth has been higher when we've had higher taxes

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/20/obama-tax-rich_n_971658.html

The rich have done very well last 10 years. Its time to end the bush tax cuts and get rid of tax loop holes and shelters.
 
Do you have any information about the trickle-down you're citing here actually working? I have heard magnification numbers, but I haven't observed any of that with the stimuli I've been aware enough to pay attention to.

I have an open mind, but I've only seen information showing the "opposite" (money given to lower / middle class has an immediate impact). Opposite in quotes because it's not quite an accurate word, but I can't think of better.

Trickle down economics doesn't work and the only way money gets back in to the economy is if the govt spends it. We need higher taxes for the wealthy. Millionaires, billionaires, and republican voters agree.
 
wealth%2Bwould%2Btrickle%2Bdown.jpg
 
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