Career change

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VictorOfHungerGames

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Anyone thinking about it? I am getting tired of pharmacy. Unstable future, job saturation, cooperate take over, etc. Not knowing how much longer we can hold on to what we have is making me reconsider this career.

I am seriously considering a PA program. Even though average salary for a PA would be about 100k or so, it would be much better in having a long, stable career. 24-30 months programs would be worth the risk.

If anyone has looked into this, please share your thoughts. I emailed the director a PA program so if anyone is interested, I will share what I find out.

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I'd advise you to separate what you don't like about the job versus what you don't like about the profession and evaluate leaving based on what you don't like about the profession. Another way to put this is would you still be a PA if the growth comes to an end? If you can answer yes to that, then good luck and get out of here. If your answer is more qualified, then you need to think about whether or not changing jobs and your future employability outweighs leaving.

In my own way, I did leave the necessity of pharmacy, which is why I enjoy it now, because it's just like Common People, anytime I feel like it, I can leave and I have left that work totally for periods of time.
 
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I'm riding the gravy train as long as I can. We are way overpaid compared to other professions. Engineers and accountants start at like 40k/year.
 
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I've thought about it. But if I do, it definitely won't be for another career in healthcare. The ceiling is too low. If I changed careers it would be for something with lower starting $ and a higher ceiling. Something where hard work and outperformance of peers actually nets you financial gain. I just don't see a lot of that in healthcare. Obviously there are high earners in specialty surgery, but that's not really second career material do the long training.
 
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I'm riding the gravy train as long as I can. We are way overpaid compared to other professions. Engineers and accountants start at like 40k/year.
Then after 4 years, the good ones out earn pharmacists...
 
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I'm riding the gravy train as long as I can. We are way overpaid compared to other professions. Engineers and accountants start at like 40k/year.
There are no engineer making 40k/yr. Depending on specialty, some of them start off 100k+.
 
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Then after 4 years, the good ones out earn pharmacists...
Comp Sci people out earning us 2-4 years BEFORE we even graduate and can make as much as 3x more money in just a short 5 yrs...
 
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Been thinking a lot about this too. I hear PA is experiencing high saturation as well. Although not near the level pharmacy is, it may get there eventually. Currently it may be difficult to get a position in a metro area. As for myself I'm kind of dreaming about getting back into science academia/research. The pay may be terrible but I think it'll make me happy...But I need to pay off my current loans first.
 
There are no engineer making 40k/yr. Depending on specialty, some of them start off 100k+.

I was wrong more like 52-62k starting, this is the first thing that came up on Google

recent-college-graduate-salaries-by-major-average-annual-earnings_chartbuilder-1.png


But the point is pharmacists make twice as much. I'm sure some may start at 100k but not everyone is a rock star in Silicon Valley. The majority of engineering majors are mechanical engineers and it takes years and years to reach pharmacist salary... Over 26 years to make what some staff pharmacists make.

Salaries-Are-Up-for-Mechanical-Engineers_01.png.aspx
 
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Engineering offers my friends were given ranged from 55-70k all-in... the average engineer won’t be a petroleum engineer from Exxon cracking 100k right out of grad. Same with computer science - FAANG software engineers represent the top 1%.

Still, by 5-10 years out, you’re basically at parity with what a pharmacist will take home. With more upside, in a growing field...

@OP, instead of switching fields entirely into PA (which = more debt and more opportunity cost into a field that’s projected to also reach oversupply), have you thought about using your degree and experience for related fields? Might be a better way to go if you find a path forward, unless you have a calling for medicine.
 
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Engineering offers my friends were given ranged from 55-70k all-in... the average engineer won’t be a petroleum engineer from Exxon cracking 100k right out of grad. Same with computer science - FAANG software engineers represent the top 1%.

Still, by 5-10 years out, you’re basically at parity with what a pharmacist will take home. With more upside, in a growing field...

@OP, instead of switching fields entirely into PA (which = more debt and more opportunity cost into a field that’s projected to also reach oversupply), have you thought about using your degree and experience for related fields? Might be a better way to go if you find a path forward, unless you have a calling for medicine.
1%??? FAANMG employed 25k-150k people for each companies. They aren't the only players in Silicon Valley.
Parity after 5 years??? Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies
Nope... not even close...
 
Comp Sci people out earning us 2-4 years BEFORE we even graduate and can make as much as 3x more money in just a short 5 yrs...

I also read a lot about these folks working 60-80hr/weeks (if not 90-100 in some places). Grass is always greener until you're there and ****ting on it.
 
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Over 26 years to make what some staff pharmacists make.

This is what I think every time people mention engineering as an alternative to pharmacy. My dad is an electrical/mechanical engineer (degrees in both, not sure exactly which field he actually works more closely in) and has been at the same company close to 25 years. He's basically at staff pharmacist salary now and has surprisingly similar complaints to a lot of pharmacists that I hear. Saturation may not be as much of an issue but mergers/acquisitions are still occurring. A lot of the problems that I've heard with both professions revolve around everything becoming more corporate: tracking productivity, cutting support positions, pressuring you doing more work with less help, etc.
 
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Software engineers are in very high demand right now. You can increase your salary by 20% or more by job hopping every few months. Companies are desperate for workers, even slightly experienced ones. This allows you to hit six figures easily if you don’t already start at six figures.
 
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1%??? FAANMG employed 25k-150k people for each companies. They aren't the only players in Silicon Valley.
Parity after 5 years??? Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies
Nope... not even close...
Yes, the top 1%. You’re talking the best grads across the country getting 200k+ with base + bonus + relocation + RSU right after college. 30-40% of those engineers at Google will have PhDs.

Software engineering jobs are densely concentrated in high CoL cities as well. I don’t need to tell you about the adjustment for Palo Alto.

Not to say that comp sci isn’t the better deal - it is.

However, if pay is what a pharmacist is looking for - go get an MBA and be a healthcare investment banker. Get 250k starting as an Associate at Goldman. Or at Boston Consulting Group for 230k. Equally arduous paths that won’t require you to completely reset your degree but come with their own tradeoffs. Plenty of other options to consider than software engineering. You could apply for product management at tech firms as well, where comp meets or exceeds software engineers.
 
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Idk where everyone gets this idea that software developers or engineers automatically make 150k+/year and 100k+/year and it’s all gravy. I know of 1 engineer making 100k+, and this individual went on to get a PhD and is in a high level of industry. That’s not to say that these are bad fields at all, but the money is just not as high as most people make it out to be unless you are living in silicone valley.

PA is starting to saturate. Honestly, I think anything entrepreneurial is gonna be the future where you can be your own boss.
 
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This is what I think every time people mention engineering as an alternative to pharmacy. My dad is an electrical/mechanical engineer (degrees in both, not sure exactly which field he actually works more closely in) and has been at the same company close to 25 years. He's basically at staff pharmacist salary now and has surprisingly similar complaints to a lot of pharmacists that I hear. Saturation may not be as much of an issue but mergers/acquisitions are still occurring. A lot of the problems that I've heard with both professions revolve around everything becoming more corporate: tracking productivity, cutting support positions, pressuring you doing more work with less help, etc.

Idk where everyone gets this idea that software developers or engineers automatically make 150k+/year and 100k+/year and it’s all gravy. I know of 1 engineer making 100k+, and this individual went on to get a PhD and is in a high level of industry. That’s not to say that these are bad fields at all, but the money is just not as high as most people make it out to be unless you are living in silicone valley.

PA is starting to saturate. Honestly, I think anything entrepreneurial is gonna be the future where you can be your own boss.

This. Both my parents are engineers with higher than bachelors degree. It’s not gravy and you’re not making over 100k right out the gate LOL
 
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To get back on topic, I would pick something that offers a low debt to income ratio given the risk of the field becoming saturated or you deciding that it is not for you. Examples of such professions include the trades, computer science, finance, accounting, and engineering.

If you go to a coding bootcamp and it does not work out, you will have wasted $10k and 3-4 months. If you go to PA or pharmacy and it does not work out then you will have wasted $150k+ and 3-4 years not including prerequisites.
 
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Plus, engineers are typically the first victims of cyclical unemployment. And they usually start offering “voluntary” retirement to the highest paid/ longest employed people first. Look at what happened over the weekend to people at GM. People with degrees got laid off from their main tech center by phone. How awesome does that sound? I know people who had 10+years, solid reviews and were in the 6 figures, only to get forced out by phone.

Grass is always greener on the other side folks. I personally think we’re leaving the hay day of pharmacy, and the field is adjusting to how every other field works in this country.
 
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1%??? FAANMG employed 25k-150k people for each companies. They aren't the only players in Silicon Valley.
Parity after 5 years??? Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies
Nope... not even close...

Come on man, be real. That's like saying all law school grads will make big firm money, or all college basketball players will end up in the NBA. Are you recommending OP to become an L3 at Google? Good luck with that. We are discussing realistic expectations for normal people. The average Joe who gets his/her comp sci degree at state college won't get to pick and choose from the highest paying jobs, they will likely get paid 50-70k to start.

Most engineers are salaried and get paid nothing for any work over 40 hours per week. If they have a big project deadline, guess what they have to stay late and probably come in on the weekend and get no compensation for those extra hours. I know many programmers who are on-call and get paid nothing anytime they're woken up at 2am to get work done. Plus lay-offs are very common as someone mentioned above.

It is highly competitive to even get an average software engineering job in the Bay area, everyone wants to break into tech. I have a family member who is very good at programming, he busted his butt making 50k/year working lots of unpaid overtime SoCal. He quit and moved to San Francisco hoping to make it big. It took him over a year to find a job and he was offered 75k.
 
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Come on man, be real. That's like saying all law school grads will make big firm money, or all college basketball players will end up in the NBA. Are you recommending OP to become an L3 at Google? Good luck with that. We are discussing realistic expectations for normal people. The average Joe who gets his/her comp sci degree at state college won't get to pick and choose from the highest paying jobs, they will likely get paid 50-70k to start.

Most engineers are salaried and get paid nothing for any work over 40 hours per week. If they have a big project deadline, guess what they have to stay late and probably come in on the weekend and get no compensation for those extra hours. I know many programmers who are on-call and get paid nothing anytime they're woken up at 2am to get work done. Plus lay-offs are very common as someone mentioned above.

It is highly competitive to even get an average software engineering job in the Bay area, everyone wants to break into tech. I have a family member who is very good at programming, he busted his butt making 50k/year working lots of unpaid overtime SoCal. He quit and moved to San Francisco hoping to make it big. It took him over a year to find a job and he was offered 75k.
Nah, it's not realistic for a second career option. I'm ranting our job sucks compare to them! I don't know anyone making that low unless they are in a random podunk town and doesn't know their own worth. Totally doable if you just starting off a major, there are over 30+ companies in SV you can apply to with faanmg competitive salaries. The people they hired aren't NBA unicorns, like I said before software dev techies have massive employee count 1.3M total employment making a median 100k (SV, Seattle, Austin, NYC - in major cities, not some BFE Alabama). That's 4x the job market of pharmacists but yea keep saying NBA or 1% tho... To make ourself feel better....
 
Without compromising too much money and time, residency could be an option but even then, there really is no guarantee that there will be a job waiting for you.

Only problem with PA program is retaking some of undergrad classes. Since i graduated more than 10 years go. If i need to spend extra time and money retaking clases, this sounds skmewhat counterproductive.
 
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I'm riding the gravy train as long as I can. We are way overpaid compared to other professions. Engineers and accountants start at like 40k/year.
I agree. We should be making 35,000 a year honestly. I don't think it will get that bad. Maybe we will hit 65,000 a year then people will go into different majors and schools will shut down.

I would even consider working for free if they got us Pizza once a week and I got to work with girls/woman that could possibly be my future wife
 
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I'd advise you to separate what you don't like about the job versus what you don't like about the profession and evaluate leaving based on what you don't like about the profession. Another way to put this is would you still be a PA if the growth comes to an end?
Excellent advice. Personally, hell no. I'm not touching other people's nasty bits. And there is a reason there is a role for midlevels - physicians don't want to go into primary care where you are squeezed all to hell to churn through visits but the compensation sucks vs specialty. Primary care is the backbone of all of healthcare and is poorly compensated and busier than ever.
 
I agree. We should be making 35,000 a year honestly. I don't think it will get that bad. Maybe we will hit 65,000 a year then people will go into different majors and schools will shut down.

I would even consider working for free if they got us Pizza once a week and I got to work with girls/woman that could possibly be my future wife

My doctor friends who are family medicine or psychiatrist have said similar things. Not to the extend that they should get $35k...

Our knowledge and education are very valuable i believe but the problem is we are being exploited by big corporations which is why i think going into clinical may be the only logical option for long careers. At this point residency may be the only option.
 
The stuff I would miss about pharmacy career if I were to loose the job is work schedule (even more so than the money). I mean think about it, what other careers offer work schedule where you can be 6 or even 7 days off in two weeks and still be able to make 100k??

I would rather make less money but work fewer days than make 150 -200k working in IT department but be stuck with mond- frid 8-5 schedule. I guess I am really spoiled with the freedom pharmacy career has afforded me.
 
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If you're at a point in life where you/your family can afford for you to go back, why not?
Because residency doesn't pay, that's why not. It may give you longevity, but it's not a good investment of your time if you're wanting to earn more. There may be demand for specialists now, but how long is that gonna last when every pharmD candidate is going in with the PGY2 or bust mindset?
 
I am also thinking about that. But almost 20 years as an rph, residency is not an option. What NON healthcare fields is it easy to break into after 40? Only teaching comes to mind. . .
 
Because residency doesn't pay, that's why not. It may give you longevity, but it's not a good investment of your time if you're wanting to earn more. There may be demand for specialists now, but how long is that gonna last when every pharmD candidate is going in with the PGY2 or bust mindset?

One of OPs concerns was not knowing how much longer he can hold on to this careers. That’s where I was coming from.

Doing residency isn’t about the money. Considering you loose like 80k for a year, it may or may not pay off financially. The payoff is a longer career. It might pay off. Big might.
 
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Maybe staff RPH in retail are overpaid compared to their complete lack of accountability but I sleep just fine at my current compensation level.

An employment is far more precarious than it was 10-15 years ago. "Enjoy" it while it lasts.
 
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Anyone thinking about it? I am getting tired of pharmacy. Unstable future, job saturation, cooperate take over, etc. Not knowing how much longer we can hold on to what we have is making me reconsider this career.

I am seriously considering a PA program. Even though average salary for a PA would be about 100k or so, it would be much better in having a long, stable career. 24-30 months programs would be worth the risk.

If anyone has looked into this, please share your thoughts. I emailed the director a PA program so if anyone is interested, I will share what I find out.

All of these concerns are external; they will be a part of almost any job. I wouldn't switch a whole career over external factors, unless you really can't find a job even. You should be motivated internally if you want to waste all that income (lost wages) and time to pursue another degree because tbh there's a good chance you'll end up hating your next career too.

On a lighter note, have you considered doing a PGY4 residency?
 
Well, what do people do as side hustles?

Someone could open up those own independent pharmaceutical consulting firm online. Maybe a one man debt consulting? Writing a book about being debt free from a pharmacists perspective? Because of the internet, there are lots of ways to make cash.

If someone works 40 hr weeks, they could put 20 hr into a side hustle to see if it makes any money. If it starts taking off then good! If not it’s good they didn’t quit the day job lol.

I am also thinking about that. But almost 20 years as an rph, residency is not an option. What NON healthcare fields is it easy to break into after 40? Only teaching comes to mind. . .
 
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With CVS buying aetna, if the OP decides to become a PA, will he end up working for CVS anyway?
 
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With CVS buying aetna, if the OP decides to become a PA, will he end up working for CVS anyway?

What does CVS buying Aetna have anything to do with whether I will be working for them or not? I already worked for CVS once and no one after leaving that hell hole will go back.
 
I am also thinking about that. But almost 20 years as an rph, residency is not an option. What NON healthcare fields is it easy to break into after 40? Only teaching comes to mind. . .

But could you teach without residency? I think all my professors had residency training.
 
One of OPs concerns was not knowing how much longer he can hold on to this careers. That’s where I was coming from.

Doing residency isn’t about the money. Considering you loose like 80k for a year, it may or may not pay off financially. The payoff is a longer career. It might pay off. Big might.

This is exactly my concern. Money can always be made one way or another. At some point, im sure my wife will out earn me as a research scientist.

Im concerned about return value in quality of life and longevity in career.
 
Engineering offers my friends were given ranged from 55-70k all-in... the average engineer won’t be a petroleum engineer from Exxon cracking 100k right out of grad. Same with computer science - FAANG software engineers represent the top 1%.

Still, by 5-10 years out, you’re basically at parity with what a pharmacist will take home. With more upside, in a growing field...

@OP, instead of switching fields entirely into PA (which = more debt and more opportunity cost into a field that’s projected to also reach oversupply), have you thought about using your degree and experience for related fields? Might be a better way to go if you find a path forward, unless you have a calling for medicine.

Accountants are being automated out through software, the accountants you see now are much more productive and intelligent than the ones you saw even in the 1990s. Engineers (particularly the high-end petroleum and electrical engineers) get shafted when they are in their 50s, and Ma Bell/Intel/GE Westinghouse did it to electrical, MD, Boeing, and Hughes did it to their aerospace, and let's not get started on Royal Dutch Shell and Exxon on the petroleum engineers. And disenfranchisement at 50 unless you are in management. Same with your line of work unless you make full/equity partner (which is something like ~20% at best in firms, not impossible, but not easily achievable). You know the odds, and you are taking the risks because of your confidence of being a winner, but it's a risk that you have to endure for the big bucks now and tomorrow in a way that most don't have to sweat. Well-paid engineers career earnings are not the same as healthcare as even when they get paid more, their career stability is far less certain than health care. The fact of the matter is that the young who need the money more, are in better condition, and are not as resistant to the management games are the fodder that feeds the corporate engine.

Pharmacy used to be one of the professions that you could grow old and useless in and still have a steady, paying job. To the OP's concern, career stability and longevity is a real concern nowadays. I would argue that nothing is really safe.



1%??? FAANMG employed 25k-150k people for each companies. They aren't the only players in Silicon Valley.
Parity after 5 years??? Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies
Nope... not even close...

Let me rephrase this is a way that's analogous to pharmacy. I get this from IT workers from those companies from time to time: "Why the hell does those your trainee dumbf#*ks make so little working for CVS, when pharmacist owners at median make $350k? Surely, you could use your money, plunk it down in SoCal pharmacy, and make a mint like all those guys who are running those pill mills outside USC?"

I'll answer for you, because being a pharmacy owner and being a pharmacist, while they are two jobs within pharmacy, have neither the same background, the same daily tasks, or the same risk profiles. You slave away at that borderline $150k job year after year with complaints, because you can. You're not invested in CVS at all, you can turn your back on them anytime, and honestly, you use your time more productively to hustle the market. That's not possible as a pharmacy owner. But if you average out the ENTIRE profession for what we do including industry, there are enough extremely well-paid pharmacists in NJ, CA, NC, and NY that even the CVS corporate cattle make less than the median by comparison even in California. Because if you put in the number of people who are technically pharmacists who work those fields which are really not pharmacy per se, then the average should be around $250-275k due to the number of industry and owners who make above that amount but do not practice.

So when you talk about IT, there's a real difference between the astronomical amounts that Google and Facebook pay, to the high amounts Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, and Amazon pay, to the normal amounts that almost everyone else pays. Among the CS and CSE majors, the probability of you being a Google engineer is about the same as being an Associate Director at a major PhRMA concern or a small-time owner. Again, not impossible, but not normal either. There is an overaggregation bias here where too many groups are piled into one, and while that can be true, it lacks perspective on the normal reality. The normal IT worker makes between $70-150k depending on their role. Development pays more, but it is proportionately more risky to enter and more unstable to retain those earnings. In general, any job that you are paid well even in comparison to the two-person median, those jobs have additional concerns that do not plague the more precarious ones.

And sure, I know these guys and gals too. My last PhD student went to work for Renaissance on those models, and sure, I can claim that I know my average PhD makes more in a year than I will in a lifetime (quite literally, it's very humbling), but that's a one-person Simpson's paradox issue. I can also say that every single one of my PhD graduates make more than a CVS pharmacist from Day 1, and that the usual start to their salary lines is roughly $200k before vesting options or bonuses for a 50 hour workweek, and that would be a better description of their fate.

The reason I keep writing against these utopia job descriptions is that the grass really is not greener anywhere else. Everything does have its risks and rewards including medicine. You really can't make a bad decision (it's not like you're going into salt mining after pharmacy), but the decisions are always going to imply some level of explicit and implicit costs and no one really can accurately predict the future. You should find something to do that is at least short-term sustainable and that you are satisfied to work in given the conditions.
 
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You spent 6 or 8 years in school versus 4 years? Why are Pharmacists feeling so worthless? We all deserve our current salaries if not more.

"Confidence is the prize given to the mediocre."
 
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What does CVS buying Aetna have anything to do with whether I will be working for them or not? I already worked for CVS once and no one after leaving that hell hole will go back.

CVS is planning to move to a more healthcare related model (with a focus on urgent/midlevel care) and away from convenience retail, guessing they will employ many NPs and PAs.
 
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CVS is planning to move to a more healthcare related model (with a focus on urgent/midlevel care) and away from convenience retail, guessing they will employ many NPs and PAs.
Yeah, provider status all we want but CVS minute clinics are gonna be run by NPs and PAs, not pharmacists. If pharmacists do eventually get involved in that capacity then it’s a virtual guarantee that it’s just another added responsibility with no additional pay, OR if it is a separate, carved out position then it might be similar to the “health outcomes” positions Walgreens is now hiring for, albeit at $35 an hour probably.
 
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You spent 6 or 8 years in school versus 4 years? Why are Pharmacists feeling so worthless? We all deserve our current salaries if not more.

"Confidence is the prize given to the mediocre."

Supply and demand. When pharmacy schools open on every corner and accept applicants with 2.5 GPAs, <30 PCATs, and no work experience who qualify for $200k+ in student loans we become less valuable.
 
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You spent 6 or 8 years in school versus 4 years? Why are Pharmacists feeling so worthless? We all deserve our current salaries if not more.

"Confidence is the prize given to the mediocre."

This argument makes no sense. Physical therapists are in school the same amount of time as pharmacists but make far less. You can spend 253k for a 5 year music degree at Bard College. You can get Masters degrees in liberal arts and make nothing. Just because you spent a lot of time and money in school doesn't mean you deserve a high salary.
 
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What does CVS buying Aetna have anything to do with whether I will be working for them or not? I already worked for CVS once and no one after leaving that hell hole will go back.

Agreed, but to say no-one will go back is far-reaching. The employees who start out at CVS usually don't stay long. Those that do truly love the hustle-and-bustle and there is "never a dull moment" with the stories you hear from those who do work there. Most new pharmacists leave CVS to pursue other options and are happy doing so, at a range of 2-30 years on the job, a very wide range. It is the same for WalMart, Publix, Walgreens, SafeWay, Costco, RiteAid, and other retail stores as well. Retail is a start, but it does not have to be the rest of one's pharmacy career, unless you get a VERY BAD manager, team, or both who will not let you move forward. The phrase "Long-term employment" does not have a clear-cut definition.

As far the career change to a Physician Assistant, do what you have to do. It is your life and your decision. However, if your pharmacy experience does not qualify, you may still need to get the Direct Patient Experience (DPE) hours from other careers (paramedic, volunteer with patients, Certified Nursing Assistant, or other options). Each school has a list of what experiences qualify and what does not. Do your research, find the information, and make your decision...quickly. Other PharmDs might have the same idea as you.
 
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Because residency doesn't pay, that's why not. It may give you longevity, but it's not a good investment of your time if you're wanting to earn more. There may be demand for specialists now, but how long is that gonna last when every pharmD candidate is going in with the PGY2 or bust mindset?

Many practicing pharmacists mid-career (5-10 years) I talked to on my institutional pharmacy rotation felt the same way. The paycut, hassle, and job insecurity are the primary concerns why people do not pursue a residency at a lower salary. This is especially true if they are good at their jobs, can "ride it out," and do not wish to pursue academia as a career.

Some individuals earned academic positions without a residency, but post-graduate training is just that: training. It does increase your chances, but no guarantees unless you have a strong teaching and scholarship portfolio to back up the training. PGY-whatever alone does not cut it for a faculty job, but post-graduate training is required for most full-time faculty positions (not all). Read the job descriptions and requirements before applying.

You can teach without a residency or fellowship, but the process is more nerve-wracking without one.
 
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