Caribbean vs. Osteopathic

[Wannabe Doc]

I'd like to say that I want to practice medicine, and I am not asking this question to start a fight.

I honeslty need advise.

I feel whichever school i pick will make me an equally caring physician, but I want to know about residency and I'm worried about what my patients will say when I say that I'm a DO. I know that DO's are as smart/quick/sharp/etc, but I'm not sure if my patients will know that. If I go to a Caribbean school, they will never know where I went to school and I'll have a MD behind my name. But I like the fact of staying in the US, but i know I will finish if i go abroad because I am sure that I want to be a Doc. Cost is very expensive in both approaches. Please help.

I have been accepted into three different programs:

1. Midwestern U--Chicago College of Osteopathic Med (An excellent program--I think)
2. Ross U (Caribbean--considered to be an excellent program)
3. St. Georges (Caribbean--consdiered to be an excellent program)

My first desire is to practice medicine. I am not exactly positive about what field I will pursue, but I am interested in many different internal med subspecialities.
I have always liked surgery, but I'm not sure if I want the lifestyle.

In terms of residency which option is better? I don't want to be limited once I decide which field I want to pursue. I appreciate your opinions, thanking you in advance.

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[Besyonek]

Go DO.

The MD/DO thing is becoming a non-issue. There are plenty of DO attendings at the teaching hospital affiliated with my med school. They are accorded the same respect and status as anyone else.

You mentioned that you don't want to be limited in your residency options. Well, as a DO, you won't be. As an FMG, you'll get the bottom of the barrel, and that's if you're able to even qualify to practice in the US. The hospitals I know of that do have a lot FMGs on the staff are held in low repute by the attendings and residents I've talked with, precisely for that reason.

These beach schools are a money-making scheme for their owners. Being accepted to them essentially requires 1) basic literacy 2) a decent credit history and 3) a pulse. Even at a place like SGU or Ross, there's a huge weed-out process; at most 50% of matriculants make it to Step 1 of the USMLE. What about those who didn't? They're sadder, wiser and poorer.

If you want a quality education and assurance that you'll be able to go into whatever specialty you want (assuming you have the qualifications), go to the DO school.

As a final note, I would amend the above advice as follows: If you see the DO program as "settling for second best", or some such nonsense, don't do it. You'll be taking a spot from someone who's excited and enthusiastic about their education. Rather, take a year or two to buff up your credentials -- retake the MCAT, boost your gpa, do some research, etc. and try again. Contact the schools that rejected you and find out WHY they did so -- they'll be pleased by your interest and desire to improve your application.

Good luck.

 

[Wannabe Doc]

Thanks for your input. Actually I am very excited about the DO philosophy. I would be lying if i said I rather not be in a MD program, but I don't consider the DO route as second best. I consider it to be different but in a positive manner.
I am in my year off right now. I still have yet to hear from a couple MD schools, and I personally do not understand their problem with me. I have a 3.75 GPA, I am getting a Masters right now, and I have a 28 on my MCAT. I know I could beef up on my MCAT (considering I took it my sophomore year), but I really do not want to. I want to get on with my real goal--Become a KICK ASS physician, and not waste my time working on what I consider adequate enough prereqs.

Thanks for your input.

 

[PimplePopperMD]

No question at all. Zero. The value of the "international MD" is MUCH MUCH less than the value of DO. Granted, many patients, if they find out you're DO, won't know what one is (depending on where you practice), but in point of fact, THAT doesn't matter (you'll have patients, trust me!). What *DOES* matter is ability to get into residency programs, and you stand the best chance at the most competitive programs:

1. Allopathic US school. It's true, and many osteopathic students will be up-in-arms at the THOUGHT of it, but whatever.

2. Osteopathic US school. There's really not much of a difference, but it IS #2 in the minds of many residency directors.

600. International MD from Ross/St Georges. Granted, read their stuff, and it's easy as pie to get a residency. But when you evaluate a residency program, one of the things you'll notice is international grads... as a NEGATIVE thing, even though an individual may be stellar, it will certainly be a blemish. Everyone knows that they went there because they were US rejects. No getting 'round it.

6000. The rest of the beach schools.

This post actually isn't meant to be inflammatory, but merely my opinion. My bias: I applied to MD and DO, and was willing to apply to international MD, but was accepted to US MD & DO, and chose MD for reasons above as well as $$ and reputation.

Cheers!

 

[CVPA]

Take the DO slot and run with it, my friend.

 

[dwstranger]

As a student in a foreign school, I say go DO.

Any trouble you encounter by "having DO after your name" is MUCH LESS THAN the troubles you'll have as an IMG. As an IMG, you have to jump through a lot of hoops just to be eligible for a residency in the US, even if you're an American.

If you can get into an American school, do it.

 

[LoserAlert]

Man, go DO.

Count your blessings. I recently had a friend that didn't get into any MD/DO schools and started to cry. She is now considering SGU/ROSS/AUC. Dang, I pity her.

 

[Wannabe Doc]

I appreciate all your input. I am very excited about the DO philosophy, and it seems that residency choice is less of an issue with DO students, then Carib students. Thanks for all the advice. Good luck to all you guys/gals.

 

[jenavari]

I am thoroughly disgusted with most everyone who had the nerve to post these arrogant and completely ill-advised messages. I am a foreign medical student and I work at a US hospital (completing clerkships)--I have been told by attendings, as well as residency directors at major university centers in NY and NJ that a DO degree is still second-class when compared to a MD from ANY school. But, if you want to be a primary care physician who will have little to no chance at a fellowship, then by all means go ahead and get that DO. We don't need or want weak-willed people representing SGUSOM.
And let's face facts...when you dreamed of becoming a doctor, did you ever think that meant DO? Please!

If anyone would like to bad-mouth my school, please make sure to send me copy of that posting. I will make sure to reply immediately.

 

[Master Bastion]

If the DO is second class, the caribbean MD is 4th class, behind the 3rd class "real" international MD (grads from china, australia, france, england, etc). NJ? I have friends in DO school and doing rotations at UCSF, Loma Linda, UCI, UCD. these are top programs, and directors there have no problems with them. Look at the staff at any top notch MD program and you will see DOs on faculty. Can you say the same for any SGU/ROSS/AUC grad? show me just one, and i will be really suprised.

oh ya....the truth hurts dosn't it.



[This message has been edited by Master Bastion (edited 03-12-2001).]

 

[LoserAlert]

Loser detected.
Hey, lets face facts, when you thought of medical school, did you think that meant: mosquitos, heat/humidity, poor facilities, poor professors, sub-par education, 3rd world living conditions, having classmates with 20-23 MCATS, having future colleagues and admission directors laught at you becuase you could get not into any US school. etc. Please!

and come on, give up on this "many qualified applicants get rejected every year crap." If you were truly qualified or had something unique to offer the health care profession, you'd be joining us (the true american trained doctors), not at SGU.

 

[drpatel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by jenavari:
I am thoroughly disgusted with most everyone who had the nerve to post these arrogant and completely ill-advised messages. I am a foreign medical student and I work at a US hospital (completing clerkships)--I have been told by attendings, as well as residency directors at major university centers in NY and NJ that a DO degree is still second-class when compared to a MD from ANY school. But, if you want to be a primary care physician who will have little to no chance at a fellowship, then by all means go ahead and get that DO. We don't need or want weak-willed people representing SGUSOM.
And let's face facts...when you dreamed of becoming a doctor, did you ever think that meant DO? Please!

If anyone would like to bad-mouth my school, please make sure to send me copy of that posting. I will make sure to reply immediately.•

I think the real question is not what the letters behind your name are, rather the quality of the insitutions you train at. I am a US Allopathic Grad at UC Davis. We have several DOs here and hardly any FMGs. This depsite the fact that we receive about 100 times more applications from FMGs.

Everyone knows that all you need is a pulse to get into SGUSOM. There are fine graduates of the program but they are few and far between. Nearly 100 % of DOs get US Residencies. What percentage of your class that started the first year at SGUSOM wound up getting US residencies. Tell us all what you need to do in order to practice medicine in CA. Give me a break. I don't advocate bashing of FMGs (look at my past posts), in fact I have defended FMGs on many occassions. But for you to call DOs second-class compared to your Island MD is laughable and disgusting. The education at Caribbean schools pale in comparison to the standards at US MD or DO schools. Don't pretend not to know the difficulties many FMGs face in obtaining residencies. Please don't lump yourself in the category of US MD. You were saved by a law that allowed FMGs to call themselves MDs. DOs in California could have choosen to have the MD as well but they opted not to and fought for the right to maintain their separate but equal degree.

Get your facts straight, loser!!! If you made it a habit of doing your research before you ran your mouth, maybe you would have gotten into a US school instead of going to the Carribean.

Everyone residency automatically tosses the FMG application unless it is a really weak residency. Please provide us with the match list from SGUSOM. At UC Davis we have several DOs in residency (Neurosurgery, General Surgery, IM, FP, etc...) Please share with us about the wonderful opportunties afforded the FMG.

Bottom line: FMGs can make excellent physicians but you are certainly in no position to criticize US trained physicians be it DO or MD.

P.S. We automatically toss the FMG grad application. The ones I have reviewed often had to spend a few years after medical school to get qualified to even apply for residency. I don't recall any DO applications needing this. Please share with us what Neurosurgery program you've matched at. What hospital are you at and what type of residency, you big 'first class' FMG.

Lastly, I dreamed of going to medical school in the US. In my worst nightmares I would wake-up in a cold sweat and realize I was in a foreign country with no friends and family by my side. What are the big 'NJ' and 'NY' hospitals? Probably UMDNJ, which is filled by FMGs sympathetic to your cause, or the US MD who is just patronizing you. Please get back to us when you find out where you match for residency.

Also, why are you so defensive? We all know exactly why!!! The joys you will have in obtaining residency will be punishment enough. Good luck, Dr. 'first-class'.

Dr. Patel, 'Real' M.D.

UC Davis Medical Center

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Ladies and Gentleman, kindly change the tone here to one which is becoming of the professionals you are/are hoping to become and stick to the issues and not the personalaties. Thanks.

 

[drusso]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by jenavari:
I am thoroughly disgusted with most everyone who had the nerve to post these arrogant and completely ill-advised messages. I am a foreign medical student and I work at a US hospital (completing clerkships)--I have been told by attendings, as well as residency directors at major university centers in NY and NJ that a DO degree is still second-class when compared to a MD from ANY school. But, if you want to be a primary care physician who will have little to no chance at a fellowship, then by all means go ahead and get that DO. We don't need or want weak-willed people representing SGUSOM.
And let's face facts...when you dreamed of becoming a doctor, did you ever think that meant DO? Please!

If anyone would like to bad-mouth my school, please make sure to send me copy of that posting. I will make sure to reply immediately.•

The problem with off-shore schools is that their education procedures exist outside of mainstream US accreditation standards. I've known many students who have been abused by the international medicine system. What avenues of recourse do these students have if they are unjustly accused of wrongdoing? They can't go to the AMA, they can't go to the AOA, they can't go to the LCME--because none of these organizations accredit off-shore educational programs.

It can't be ignored that a lot of these schools are for profit, accept students with significantly lower academic qualifications than US MD and DO programs. There are numerous examples of off-shore graduates securing good residencies--but this is the exception, not the rule. I can think of no good reason to forego a mainstream accredited medical education (US MD or DO) in the USA for an unaccredited education offshore. It is too risky and I counsel premeds to stay in the US if at all possible.

 

[DrPeace]

In general, I don't think people really care whether you are DO, MD, or IMG. I think it's just a thing people talk about over a cup of coffee.

As for UCD, it's true that they are notorious for nothing taking IMG seriously. But then there are other places where they don't take DO seriously either. So I think it all depends on who is in charge at the medical center. I went to medical school at University of Oxford(from Hong Kong originally) and I am a PGYI at Stanford and this MD/DO/IMG thing was never talked about among the staffs. I did apply to Davis and they didn't offer me an interview...BIG DEAL...so I went to Stanford instead. I am not that smart but then despite being a IMG, I seem to get more attention and respect from patients and my colleagues("US grad")than I deserve just because I went to Oxford. But then again, it's just a complement that lasts for no more than a few seconds. People DON'T care, all they do is care about themselves. My colleague is from Yale. "Wow", I said. I do respect him but do I think about his "greatness" all the time? HELL NOOOOO!! I went to Oxford. "Wow", he said. Does he really care? Hell NOOOO!! By the way, it's not that great at Oxford either, people skipped lectures, labs, and "ditch" classes. Quality? I doubt that. As for Dr. Patel, you can call yourself whatever you want, "Dr. first class", it's nothing more than your own perception of yourself. Personally, I don't medicine deserves special respect. If you can do the job(which isn't that hard), you can be either DO, MD, or IMG. And also i think it's a matter of perspective. At Oxford, the only U.S. medical schools we look up to are the IVY leagues, UCDavis is unknown to us. I disagree on that because I think we are all the same. 'Real doctor' should be mature enough to know the real meaning of humility.

Kato

 

[Simul]

DrPeace said:
"My colleague is from Yale. "Wow", I said. I do respect him but do I think about his "greatness" all the time? HELL NOOOOO!! I went to Oxford. "Wow", he said. Does he really care? Hell NOOOO!!"

That is a hillarious line

And soooooo true. We all do say 'Wow' and then forget about it. But, I think it gets the point across pretty clearly.

Simul
"Constantly thinking about the greatness of Harvard chaps..."

 

[MEAT]

Jenavari, what happened to the quick reply?
I'd say Pimplepopper's assessment is pretty accurate as to how residency directors view applicants. It's a lot easier to move from #2 to #1 with sub-internships and/or USMLE scores. Not so easy for the FMG from the Carribean to go from # 6,000,000 to # 1.

Dr. Peace, there is a big difference between Oxford and the Carribean schools. Oxford grads are considered in a different category than FMGs from third-world countries. I don't think any of the comments about FMGs were directed at you.

SEEK #1 -- MEAT, US M.D./D.O.

 

[Lubdub]

Although DO's are qualified physician's, the DO/MD differentiating line is not blurred to the extent of DDS/DMD (DDS or DMD, just depends on the school you went to).

From whichever school you receive your MD, provided you pass the USMLE's, you become a qualified physician, just like any other MD.
All MD's, are recognized as qualified doctors by EVERY country.

DO's, may take the USLME, but usually opt to take the COMLEX (the DO's exam). Furthermore, DO's do get residencies via NRMP, but most land DO residencies.

The bottom line is that, in the United States, we acknowledge that DO's are practicing doctor's of medicine, but unfortunately the rest if the world doesn't think so.

There is no question that Carribbean schools are much easier to get into than U.S MD or DO schools, but the fellow from Harvard and the fellow from Ross, will have the same signature on their labcoats,
"Dr. John Doe, MD".

 

[kimberlicox]

Just my two cents...

IMHO, this issue is of MOST import to pre-meds. I have found very little, if any overt discrimination based on my medical education. Obviously, I cannot comment on covert forms.

However, I would think FOR MOST people, the DO road will be easier and more enjoyable. the stigma is still out there - I happened to catch a tv show the other day (and for the life of me, can't remember which one. Is one the Sopranos' sons' pre-med?) in which the character said something to the effect that his grades weren't "even good enough for osteopathic school". Very sad, that the media is perpetuating the belief that DO schools are sub-standard.

Bottom line is that you need to question how much the explaining your degree to *a few* patients will matter to you. Either route will provide some derision, but from my experience, MOST of it seems to come from pre-med and med students, not working physicians and patients.

 

[Madison]

I am surprised at the "hostility" there is just in these few posts between "respectable Professionals" who are arguing about the validity of their Medical Degrees.

Is this just a taste of what is out there?

I am applying to Medical School right now and I really needed this input. But I have to say I am sorely disappointed at the disrespect.

I work in a Trauma Center surrounded by residents. Foreign (not 3rd world) and Domestic. I have found the bias' that you have all stated regarding the schools in the Caribbean. It probably comes up with me because of all the advice and talk on medical shools I've been given by residents and Attendings alike. I have been STRONGLY cautioned AGAINST even thinking about the Caribbean. Even the show "E.R" made a negative strong point regarding "Dr.Maluchie" having attended a Carribean school.

All the Doc's I know and the ones I have had used for personal medical attention have the school they graduated from on their BIO card right in the waiting rooms. I know I look at the schools. Don't YOu?

I would never want to be a starving Medical Doctor. How humiliating!

Madison

[This message has been edited by Madison (edited 03-17-2001).]

 

[PuppyLuv]

I think it depends on where you want to practice after you finish your residency. I mean we as educated "medically oriented" people would probably look at our "doctor"'s credentials but how many of the rest of the patients out there look at where the doctor get their degree from. So if you're gonna practice at areas where people still think D.O. is another version of chiropractors, then REALLY DO consider carribean M.D. schools. As for myself, planing to practice in Miami, I'm going to Nova!

 

[DrPeace]

People, people!! Are you sure this IMG/DO/MD issue is that complicated? All the arguments I have read so far seem very logical but then in real practice, I seriously don't think it's a real issue. I have only been in Stanford for about a year and absolutely no one had raised this IMG/DO/MD in either Lucile Parkard or Stanford medical center.
I think most places don't look at IMG/DO any differently than US MD. There are about 35 first year internal medicine residents at Stanford and about 6 of them are "IMG", 1 from Oxford(me), 2 from university of manchester, 1 from University of Queensland(Australia), 1 from Germany, and 1 from Israel. As for DO, I haven't met any in my PGYI year yet, but once I saw an resident with a DO on her badge. Didn't catch which specialty though. But I am sure she is the God of beauty!!! And I have also read on various websites(just started recently out of curiosity and learned it from the Israeli bloke) that you need to be the "cream of the crops" in your "foreign medical school" and surpass all US MD to get into residency..hmmm????? I am VERY average at Oxford, no "publications", no US "LORs", and no US "rotations". These are the credentials I have heard from the Israeli bloke and he told me all about it. Either I am REALLY lucky(adminstrative errors), the interviewer found me extremely handsome(seriously doubt that) , Stanford has crabby program, or they never had a graduate from Oxford. And so my point are much more strange criteria they use than mere MD/IMG/DO qualification. But then as I have really mentioned, I actually get unique respect from my colleagues. "Go ask the Oxford guy, he is the MAN here", they often said. Such boring and coarse complement. And since I have this unique British with a tint of Asian accent, I have been asked by several patients where or what medical school I was from, ALL of them gave repetitive but unneccessary appraisal and approval. And so I think it's not an issue after all.

And God bless the Queen!!

Kato

 

[Wannabe Doc]

I am very pleased with the way this topic turned out. I have learned a lot about the subject. I was hoping for a one sided answer, but now I am going to have to really see what I want. This is how I think the whole topic should be broken down:

If you want to stay in the states, and follow a regular med school curric then stay DO. This way you get the advantage of a big class of peers, don't have to worry about setting up your own rotations, etc. But you will be a DO.
If you want to practice abroad, don't mind living in some small island, and are willing to work real hard to get to the states Go IMG. (for most people it could mean Caribbean).

The bottom line is that i want to practice medicine. I do want MD behind my name (because everyone knows who they are and its just generally the accepted thing). But nothing i do is normal so maybe I need to be a DO to stand out and be myself.
Another big concern of mine is that one day i will want to practice abroad, and I will run into problems because I am a DO.

I really appreciate all the input, and I know which ever route i pick the bottom line is--I will have to work my A** off to be an excellent doc, and Actions speak much louder than words (espcially two initials after my name).

 

[kimberlicox]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by DrPeace:
People, people!! Are you sure this IMG/DO/MD issue is that complicated? All the arguments I have read so far seem very logical but then in real practice, I seriously don't think it's a real issue. I think most places don't look at IMG/DO any differently than US MD. There are about 35 first year internal medicine residents at Stanford and about 6 of them are "IMG", 1 from Oxford(me), 2 from university of manchester, 1 from University of Queensland(Australia), 1 from Germany, and 1 from Israel.
And God bless the Queen!!

Kato•

While I do agree with Kato that the IMG/DO/MD issue seems to be of greater import at the pre-med and med student level, me thinks his experience is different than most.

I would be willing to bet that an IMG from the UK, Germany or any commonwealth country IS perceived differently than an IMG from the Caribbean. I am pleased to see that Stanford has a number of IMGs on its medical resident roster - however, I would venture to say that number of Caribbean and Mexican grads *ever* in a Stanford residency program is little to none.

This is not to say that a residency is closed to a grad of the Caribbean schools. Far from it - I met several during my 4th year in the US. NONE were at university programs however; these same programs DID have IMGs - Germany and the UK was pretty well represented. Mind you, these were surgical rotations and I am aware of IMGs doing Ob-Gyn and IM at UCSF Fresno as well as other university IM programs.

I think our experience *might* be different than those of our colleagues graduating from schools in the Caribbean - which was what the original poster was asking about.

 

[Dr. P]

I have to correct a post stating that most D.O.s go into osteopathic residency programs. That is not true. Although many osteopathic programs are excellent; the accrediting body becomes a formality. And as for New York and New Jersey preferring forign grads to D.O.s, not true. The New Jersey School of Osteopathic Medicine is one of the 3 state medical colleges that is part of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey. And as for New York, as a student, I rotated through some of the finest, most reputable hospitals in New York. Some, were part of our own consortium, others part of other NY medical schools. Many of them did not grant rotations to foreign students, including one of NYCOM's university hospital affiliates, listed in the top 50 best hospitals in the country, by US news and world report. Furthermore, many foreign rotations are established by osteopathic programs. Ironic, isn't it.

Dr. P, D.O., PGY1

 

[msdoc72]

Im sorry to say all these posts have brought my worst fear to light. Am I going to hate the people I'm working with? I hope the many people posting these obnoxious replys are in the minority. As for you wanna be. I'm graduating from st. george's next month. if you must do the carribean thing go there. but if you want my two cents stay in the U.S. Those who talk about the difficulty getting a residency are right. It is by no means impossible to get a good residency but why make it hard on yourself? If you really dont want that DO after your name go with st. george's. also you can always try and transfer after the first year. U. of Miami and George Washington are two big places many of out students go to. I even know someone who transfered 1 month into his clinical rotations. I hope this is a real help instead of all the arguing over IMG's being "real doctors"

 

[Leotigers]

I would say that DOs have an advantage over FMGs in any residency program. What many people don't consider is the fact that there are far fewer DOs applying to any allopathic residency programs than FMGs. This is a guess based on many program directors I have met and past posts that I have read, but I am willing to guess than there is a ratio of betwen 50:1 and 100:1 of FMGs who apply versus DOs to any given residency program. There is also a significantly number of US MDs who apply than a US DO. The reason? Well, there are only 19 DO schools versus 125 US MD schools. A program usually gets the most applications from FMGs. Think about how many countries there are and the pool of FMGs that apply. There are many FMGs who didn't make it to a US residency and try again year after year. There are also practicing physicians from Foreign countries who try to get to the US by doing a residency. There are also recent grads from Forgeign Medical Schools that you are in the pool of FMGs. So, if a certain residency program only has one DO and two FMGs, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is easier for an FMG to get into that program. There could have been only 5 DO applicants, one got in, and the others ranked other programs higher. Whereas the two FMGS who got in could have been from a pool of 1000. This isn't an absurd number and is based on what one Anesthesia program told my classmate.

Many people don't realize that many of the DOs who want to specialize in surgery, wind up doing the DO match. The DO match occurs before the Allopathic match. It's kind of hard to pass up a spot in Orthopedic Surgery to take your chances in the Allopathic match. Once you match in the DO match, you are AUTOMATICALLY withdrawn from the MD match. Thus, for some it is not worth the gamble to not enter the DO match, because if you don't match in the MD match, you can't go back and get a DO spot. Does that make sense? Also, some DOs actually prefer to do a DO Ortho residency because the additional training in Musculoskeletal medicine is helpful for that field. I don't reall think OMM matters too much for other specialties. I could be wrong though.

When my classmates and I were interviewing, I didn't see many FMGs at all. Most of the people who I saw were DOs. I was told by several program directors that being a US grad made me a very strong candidate and that it was too bad more DOs didn't apply for their residency. If a program was particularly strong, they would take pride in the fact that they didn't have to take any FMGs that year. The main point is that there are very few DOs who match in the allopathic match because there are very few applicants to begin with. The reason is that there are only 19 schools, some opt to do the DO match, and there are virtually no DOs who didn't match and are applying for the second, third, or fourth time.

It would be interesting to see a statistic that addressed what percentage of DOs, US MDs, and FMGs matched into a program. That would be a more accurate assessment. There is no doubt in my mind that a US MD, all things being equal, has an advantage. I would say that this was more the case in the past and that advantage is definitely shrinking. Most of what it is based on is a program being unfamiliar with a DO. If you do a subinternship there, etc.. and they get to know you, the advantages quickly disappear. I hope that there is a program director or anyone who participates in the ranking who would comment on this idea that there are far fewer DO applicants than US MDs or FMGs.
This is a generalization but I would say that the standards for a US medical school (MD or DO) are much higher than most of the world. There is no doubt in my mind that wherever you go in the US, be it MD or DO, that you will receive better training that most other countries (this doesn't include Canada and some European countries).

Anyway, I didn't have a problem at all being a DO. I don't doubt that some do, but it certainly isn't the problem that many people think. Everywhere I interviewed, except prelims in medicine, I never came across a FMG. I have nothing against them, but this is what I came across. Also, if you want to do a residency in CA, it is extremely difficult for an FMG.

My feeling is that it will only get easier for DOs and it will only get worse for FMGs. This has been the trend for some time now. Due to funding and other reasons, it is VERY difficult for a FMG to get a residency spot. When I did my Urology rotation, there was a FMG (US Citizen), who couldn't get a residency spot (IM in CA) and wound up working as a medical assistant to the Urology group there.

Basically, if you are looking to do A residency, almost no DOs don't match. If you are really desperate you can try to go through the DO match, not match and then try the MD match, not match and then scramble for both MD and DO spots. I've never met or heard of a DO who didn't match. If you wanted to say be a surgeon, I would argue that it would be easier as a DO. If you wanted to get into a presitgious Ortho Residency, then you will have big problems. You have to remember though, it's not easy for a US MD to get a prestigious Ortho residency either. Remember, when you apply for a DO residency, the pool is actually really small. You are competing against US DOs only, at least half of which exclusively go through the MD match.

I know this was long-winded but I hope this helps. I think you would be making a big mistake going to a Foreign Medical school. The only reason would be due that you personally prefer the sound of MD after your name rather than DO. Believe me, you will have no shortage of patients. Even if you do go to a Foreign Medical School, if you do secure a US Residency spot, you won't have a problem finding patients. Good luck

 

[DDOg]

This is for anyone who has taken the time to view these messages on the screen. I am disappointed by the scrutiny that many IMG's, FMG's and DO's face.While many argue that
the MD is better no one can really say why. Our current Army Surgeon General is a DO. One unique thing DO's is their use of the OMT treatment, a treatment which also goes alongside conventional medicine. So for those of you who bash DO's, really think about what you are saying. These people have also worked hard ,had the same or similar curriculum and are working alongside you and other physicians.
My feeling towads the FMG doctors are the same. Many people who posted reply's had to distinguish themselves as a Domestically made international medical graduate. What? Are we this pathetic that we have to distinguish ourselves by two letters? What shows is your attitude towards your profession not the silly discrepancy of two letters.
I am planning to go to an Foreign medical school. Of course it is easier, why should I make it any harder for myself. While I understand the difficulty in getting a residency I know it is also possible. Both of my brothers are doctors (an MMD and a DO) my brothers best friend went to the Carribean and is woring at the CLevland Clinic as a resident (Which was rated at the #1 hospital in the country) different people have different paths. you can't generalize that much, however it is generally true that FMGs have harder times getting residencies, but what it comes down to is you. Remember when we were getting in to our undergraduate programs. The school I am graduating from had a 3.8 GPA and 1400 SAT score at minimum. Did I meet those requirements? NO. While one was high the other may not have been. These are statistics and thats what we should remember.
All of us regardless of our discipline have faced some struggle. We must come together to accomplish what we had set out for and that is to focus on the health of the patient.
Its just like when we were in college. Did we care were the professors went? But we learned from them. Some of them could have graduated first in their class, some of them may not have and yet they were our educators. When we applied to college did anyone care about the prestige of our high school? There is no way to distinguish that. The only way that anyone can judge your contributions is from what they see in you.
Things are only getting harder for us with our ever changing health policies: so I ask why are we making it harder by trying to fight something that we already have within ourselves. What I am trying to get at is that it takes a hell of a lot to go into this profession. Even for those who contemplated going into a completly different profession, we were all still determined enough to want to pursue our dream. I wish all of you MD, DO, FMG, IMG the best of success. Lets stop putting each other down and work towards a common goal. I hope you all feel the same way.

 

[DrPeace]

I think you people are right. They should give preference to U.S. citizens because it's their country and some non-us citizens shouldn't complain too much about the unfairness of residency selection. Just like you don't leave all your money in your will to a stranger just because he is better qualified in handling money vs. your own flesh and blood. I am an IMG from Oxford University and I thought the process was quite fair. I never complained about all the "discrimination" against IMG because I thought I shouldn' be in this country in the first place. But then I am not very happy when my degree from Oxford is actually not as "good" as a DO from America. Maybe what you say is true. But I find it hard to imagine that the person in charge would say, "hmmm...Oxford graduate, just not as intelligent as this other DO or some U.S. medical graduates." And throw my application away. Somehow I find it strange that our 900 years old institute does not measure up to All the medical schools in America. Could someone explain this logic to me? And once I actually got quite upset when a school administer said, "Even Cambridge graduates might not be comparable to U.S. graduates." I really want to know what EXACTLY make U.S. graduates better?????!!!! They always talk about we are better than everyone else. Show me some tangible evidence!!Clinically?Knowledge?intelligence?"compassion?What???? What make them think that we don't have these? And if you do, how do you quantify them? I thought we are all scientists, and so proof is paramount.

Kato

 

[bluphilosopher]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by DrPeace:
I think you people are right. They should give preference to U.S. citizens because it's their country and some non-us citizens shouldn't complain too much about the unfairness of residency selection. Just like you don't leave all your money in your will to a stranger just because he is better qualified in handling money vs. your own flesh and blood. I am an IMG from Oxford University and I thought the process was quite fair. I never complained about all the "discrimination" against IMG because I thought I shouldn' be in this country in the first place. But then I am not very happy when my degree from Oxford is actually not as "good" as a DO from America. Maybe what you say is true. But I find it hard to imagine that the person in charge would say, "hmmm...Oxford graduate, just not as intelligent as this other DO or some U.S. medical graduates." And throw my application away. Somehow I find it strange that our 900 years old institute does not measure up to All the medical schools in America. Could someone explain this logic to me? And once I actually got quite upset when a school administer said, "Even Cambridge graduates might not be comparable to U.S. graduates." I really want to know what EXACTLY make U.S. graduates better?????!!!! They always talk about we are better than everyone else. Show me some tangible evidence!!Clinically?Knowledge?intelligence?"compassion?What???? What make them think that we don't have these? And if you do, how do you quantify them? I thought we are all scientists, and so proof is paramount.

Kato•

Oops!! You seem to have missed the point some where trying to make DrPeace. What everyone is refering to is American citizen who forgo our own medical school system to go to a school offshores. Well, not any school ofshores, but for profit schools set up to take avantage of premed paranoia of getting into an acceptance letter. ie. They will take anyone who can pay. Many of these programs have had a proven track record of not coming through for their students, and as such have broken many a heart all in the name of money. Now these aren't the schools you normally hear of ( Ross, AUC, SGU), but many fly by night schools that pop up and shut down at the drop of a hat.

Before I go further, let me give a short STEREOTYPICAL description of an American premed. One we have a weird tendency to rank schools by how difficult they are to get in, not by their quality. ( Which is where a good chunk of the negativity you've been reading is coming from.) Second we are uber sensitive about any type of blemish on our record. Fear that we won't get a residency spot. Also, we tend to express our paranoid opinions as facts. Overdone example: " I've never seen an FMG waterski, therefore they're to stupid to know how. Not only that, they will never be allowed to anyway." Finally, since the day we decided we were interested in medicine, we were put on a pedestal by our family ( yes, I know there are exceptions) to the point that we have become quite pompous.

Now when you put this all together you have a recipe for disaster and subsequent ill felings. Although, I'm obviously only talking about a few, it's still an extremely vocal few which you can't help but to bump into. The sad thing about this group is the fact that some will advance past being premeds and make life difficult for everybody.

Now back to foreign schools. Unfortunately, when someone over hear hears the word " foriegn medical school" they think of the afore-mentioned schools and not ones like Oxford and Ross, which are designed to actually train medical students to practice medicine. ( Note: Ross actually was intended to move on American soil one day!) As for the Cambridge statement, it's unfortunate that someone thinks that way, especially a professional. Please, don't take as the general sentiment that we all share. Personally, I feel sorry for the IMG's at reputable schools who have to hear this foolishness until their ears bleed. Trust me when I say that nothing cuts deeper than words.

In summary, noone on this board was refering to schools set up to train citizens in other countries to practice in those countries. I'm ,personally, regretful that you had to feel included.

Can we prove US grads are better? Seriously, noone can even try to prove this by no shape or form. Someone is going to try though!

Has anyone noticed how so many aspiring young students do so much to go along with what they think residency directors think? Although they've never met one in their life. It's almost like the general concensus is that residency directors have to be the most ignorant, bullheaded, bigoted, hateful, pompous *ickhead on the planet. Really, most people have the ability to read a transcript and board scores plus analyze an interview. Why do so many blindly assume that they can't. Worse yet, what type of program would allow this person to blindly do as they please.

In good faith,
bluphilosopher
PCOM 2005

PS. Noticed I used the Bush administrations policy on US-foreign relationships. I was regretful, but I did not apologize!

PSS. I which you the best DrPeace. And keep in mind, if nobody liked you, then you wouldn't be at Stanford now. Good tidings to you!

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[This message has been edited by bluphilosopher (edited April 06, 2001).]

 

[Taylor DO]

Kato, what most posters are pointing to are those US students who are faced with making a decision between attending a carib school and a US osteopathic school.

Both are viable options, however, carib medical students do face more obstacles and prejudice than US osteopathic students.

[This message has been edited by Taylor DO (edited April 06, 2001).]