Categorical GS at Emory Vs MayoClinic (Rochester,MN)

[Working Brain]

Dear All
If a person has the opportunity to choose between a categorical GS residency at Emory or Mayo clinic at Rochester,MN ... What should he choose ?

I already read the complete information about both programs on FRIEDA and on their own websites. I also read the advantages and disadvantages of living in each city.

So, If you were me, what would you recommend....

Thanks

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[Blade28]

Dear All
If a person has the opportunity to choose between a categorical GS residency at Emory or Mayo clinic at Rochester,MN ... What should he choose ?

I already read the complete information about both programs on FRIEDA and on their own websites. I also read the advantages and disadvantages of living in each city.

So, If you were me, what would you recommend....

Thanks

Are you saying you have outside-the-Match offers at both programs? Or are you wondering which one to rank higher (for next year)?

What are you looking for? What kind of surgery do you want to practice?

Small town vs. big city? Urban vs. suburban? Warm or cold weather? Large or small program? Location (big difference between the South and Midwest)? Training at a central location or at multiple hospitals?

None of us can tell you which program we'd recommend - it depends on which factors are important TO YOU.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'd have to agree with Blade.

You will undoubtedly get good, if not excellent training at either place, if you were to be so lucky as to have interviewed at both programs.

But they are vastly different in environment. Where would you be happier? Is there a spouse or SO that you need to consider?

 

[Working Brain]

Dr Blade28:
No, I don't have any offers outside the match, I was speaking about the next year match. I am just looking forward to be a very well trained General Surgeon without any thoughts for any fellowship for now.

The only thing that differ for me is which one is better in Surgical Training: Which one train their residents better in OR (i.e. give the opportunity to residents to do the procedures themselves under the staff supervision) & which one has more variety of surgical cases (from simple and common to complicated and rare).

I wish you could kindly accept to answer the following question: Are you completely satisfied in the Emory GS residency? & if you had the opportunity to return back in time, where would you go?. thanks allot

Dr Winged Scapula:
1) What did you mean by environment (cold or warm weather, small or large city ) or ( nice staff, easy going surgical team) ?
2) My spouse agree to go anywhere with me !

 

[Blade28]

I don't know about the OR experience at the Mayo - unfortunately I don't know if there are any Mayo-trained people here on SDN. I'm sure they get their fair share of interesting, exotic cases though, being the Mayo and having a large referral base.

I'm very happy here, and I'm fairly aggressive about getting into the OR so I've logged quite a substantial number of cases (see my sig). In general the training here is "top-heavy" so the volume increases substantially as you become a PGY-3, PGY-4 or chief - and of course as we also receive a lot of referrals you'll see everything from bread-and-butter to complex cases. But this is true for most large, university programs.

So unfortunately it'll be tough to say which program trains their residents "better" as there's really no way to make a fair comparison (unless we find an SDN user who's trained at both programs). Why are you choosing between these two? Have you worked at both? If so, you'll likely have a better understanding of the OR experience for residents at each place.

You said you've researched the two cities - so you must know how different Rochester and Atlanta are, no? The weather, city size, culture, etc. are drastically different.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Like Blade said, it is unlikely you will find someone who has actually trained at both places (ie, residency at one, fellowship or working at another), so we are not able to compare the programs in detail.

Both programs, like any good size university program, will have a mix of bread and butter cases as well as more exotic stuff. Mayo and Emory certainly do not have the market cornered on these things, although you'll probably see more Saudi princes at Mayo than Emory.

With regards to environment, I meant that Rochester, MN and Atlanta, GA are about as different as towns can get. The weather, the surrounding community, etc. are vastly different. I have never worked at either hospital so cannot comment on what the environment in the OR or on the floors.

And I know your spouse will go wherever you go; my point was what options are there for him/her in town? Will he or she need employment? Do you have children and if so, what is the COL in the various communities, the school districts, etc. It does you no good to prefer Rochester if your spouse cannot get a job there (Mayo is about the only game in town); Atlanta has lots more options.

At any rate, you aren't going to be able to get the detailed answer you want here or anywhere else I suspect. None of us did when we went through the match. You interview someplace, you research the community, you talk about it with your SO, but there will always be things you can never know until you get somewhere.

 

[Chopsticks]

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[njbmd]

I don't know about the OR experience at the Mayo - unfortunately I don't know if there are any Mayo-trained people here on SDN. I'm sure they get their fair share of interesting, exotic cases though, being the Mayo and having a large referral base.


You said you've researched the two cities - so you must know how different Rochester and Atlanta are, no? The weather, city size, culture, etc. are drastically different.

I interviewed and did an AI in Endocrine Surgery at Mayo in Rochester. I totally loved everything about the program especially the teaching and operative experience. The attendings are solid teachers (world-renowned) both in the OR and outside the OR. I ranked it #2 behind UVa and would have been very happy to have matched there.

The weather is worse than anything that I could imagine. I have never been so cold in my life and winter goes on forever. (I repeat, it goes on forever). My only saving grace was the hot tub where I could soak a couple of times a week and warm up. I have to say that toward the end of my rotation, I wouldn't wear a coat unless the temp was below zero so I did adjust to the chill somewhat but I came back to Virginia and never wanted to see a bratwurst or anything with carbohydrates or gravy in my life.

The facilities are just superb and housing isn't bad near the clinic. There is every type of chain restaurant known to man in Rochester, MN but that's true of Charlottesville too! The library, ORs, and hospitals are very well run, excellently stocked with loads of help in the form of ancillary staff. Again, even with the chilly weather, the teaching is just off the scale and the resources are there.

Mayo has loads of "traditions" that you have to adjust to but they aren't bad. These are things like the medicine folks are physicians and everyone else is a "consultant". One wears business attire on the wards and no white coat. Gloves are placed left hand first (took me a while to get used to that one). There are very few medical students (only around 42 per class) so you are likely not to have any students on your services-read junior residents do lots of hands on work. Still, it's a great place to be at 10 below zero in January.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Actually, it is easy to find a good-pay job in Rochester. Mayo is hiring people all the time (IT, finance, chef, whatever) and you also have a huge IBM plant. Most spouses choose to stay home though because 45K/year goes a long way in here.

Never said they wouldn't find a good paying, or any job.

But you must admit that since Atlanta is a MUCH bigger area, if the spouse had a specific skill and need for employment, the chances of finding it in Atlanta are much greater.

 

[Blade28]

I interviewed at the Mayo in Scottsdale and loved the place - there's something to be said for the "Mayo" name.

We have two attendings here who did their training at the Mayo (in Rochester) - but again, I don't know of any SDN users who have dual Mayo/Emory experience.

 

[Danbo1957]

The real point is that there is nothing similar at all between the cities, and the medical education offered by each school is focused differently. Mayo is the country club, Emory is da' streets...

 

[Working Brain]

Thank you all for these information:

Dr Danbo1957: I realy didn't catch the meaning of the following (the medical education offered by each school is focused differently. Mayo is the country club, Emory is da' streets)....... I wish you could kindly explain more.

 

[Blade28]

Thank you all for these information:

Dr Danbo1957: I realy didn't catch the meaning of the following (the medical education offered by each school is focused differently. Mayo is the country club, Emory is da' streets)....... I wish you could kindly explain more.

Did you do rotations in both cities? If so, did you see how different Rochester and Atlanta are?

 

[Working Brain]

Dr Blade28: Yes, I went to both cities, and I understand the difference between the them.

The phrase that I thought need more explanation is (the medical education offered by each school is focused differently) ???.

Thanks

 

[Blade28]

Dr Blade28: Yes, I went to both cities, and I understand the difference between the them.

The phrase that I thought need more explanation is (the medical education offered by each school is focused differently) ???.

Thanks

You've rotated at both programs - so you know how they work better than any of us. None of us have worked at both institutions.

What did YOU think?

 

[Working Brain]

Dr Blade28: I am sorry for not telling you the following: I took a GS rotation at Mayo and a CT rotation at Emory. The mistake I did at Emory is that I didn't speak to any of GS residents. So I don't know anything about GS in Emory. Thank you very much for your post explaining your experience as a resident at Emory.

My GS Experience at Mayo Clinic was great but:
1) Trauma & Emergency surgery is very little.
2) A friend of mine who also rotated there told me that he was rotating with the senior resident just before ending the residency and he felt that he is not very well trained.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Dr Blade28: I am sorry for not telling you the following: I took a GS rotation at Mayo and a CT rotation at Emory. The mistake I did at Emory is that I didn't speak to any of GS residents. So I don't know anything about GS in Emory. Thank you very much for your post explaining your experience as a resident at Emory.

My GS Experience at Mayo Clinic was great but:
1) Trauma & Emergency surgery is very little.
2) A friend of mine who also rotated there told me that he was rotating with the senior resident just before ending the residency and he felt that he is not very well trained.

That would suprise me, although there is always some individual variation in training and residents. Some Chiefs will be great, even in the face of bad training, and some mediocre Chiefs will get by, either because of good training or slipping through the cracks.

That said, one Chief and one person's experience does not mean that YOU will get substandard training. One of the problems often quoted about big name places is that they are "top heavy" and the residents don't do a lot of independent operating. Hence, perhaps the reason why so many do fellowships. This is not the case everywhere, but it is common enough that I do think it exists as a phenomenon. Mayo is also not geared toward producing community general surgeons, so perhaps there is not as much push as there might be elsewhere because the training might be more focused toward producing academic or fellowship trained surgeons. Finally, if your friend is comparing a senior resident versus a Chief resident he may see a lot of difference; if he told you that ALL the surgery residents there were poorly trained, I'd say that would be a problem (albeit again, taken with a grain of salt), rather than an isolated incident.

Finally, I know you didn't ask, but I hope you are also looking at less competitive programs. As an FMG, categorical general surgery is a tough match, even at places you've done rotations. Please make sure you apply widely.

 

[Blade28]

Dr Blade28: I am sorry for not telling you the following: I took a GS rotation at Mayo and a CT rotation at Emory. The mistake I did at Emory is that I didn't speak to any of GS residents. So I don't know anything about GS in Emory. Thank you very much for your post explaining your experience as a resident at Emory.

Ah, now that you said that, I remember receiving a couple PMs from you a while back about this issue. Sorry I didn't immediately remember - I probably receive around 10 PMs a week asking for advice about surgery residency.

Did you rotate with the CT Surg department here? Or Vascular? Are you interested in CT?

As Winged Scapula stated above, are you going to apply to a wide number of General Surgery programs? Are you going through the 2009 Match (i.e. will you be sending in your ERAS app this fall)?

 

[Working Brain]

Dear All: Thanks allot for all your replies and feedback.

Dr Winged scapula: Thanks allot for your advice.

Dr Blade28:
1) When I didn't receive your reply on my second PM, I realized how busy you are, That is not a problem at all. God with you.

2) I rotated through CT, I will be apply for 2010 match. I will apply for a wide range of programs.
3) Does your program contain FMG ?, Did you see some of FMG in preliminary GS spots at Emory were able to turn to categorical GS at Emory?.

4) Thanks allot for your replies

 

[Blade28]

3) Does your program contain FMG ?, Did you see some of FMG in preliminary GS spots at Emory were able to turn to categorical GS at Emory?.

Yes, a couple. Since I've been here I've seen two IMG prelims gain categorical positions (remember it's a big program, and that we have nine categorical interns and six nondesignated preliminary interns every year).

 

[DrDre311]

Yes, a couple. Since I've been here I've seen two IMG prelims gain categorical positions (remember it's a big program, and that we have nine categorical interns and six nondesignated preliminary interns every year).

Do you ever worry that all those 'terns will unite and turn against you in the middle of the night? Like "Night of the Living 'Terns" style?

 

[Blade28]

Do you ever worry that all those 'terns will unite and turn against you in the middle of the night?

Not until you said that.

 

[Anka]

Do you ever worry that all those 'terns will unite and turn against you in the middle of the night? Like "Night of the Living 'Terns" style?

That would make a hilarious change show skit.

 

[Working Brain]

Dr Blade28: Great news. Did they enter directly into 2nd year categorical or they were forced to redo 1st year again ?.

 

[Blade28]

Dr Blade28: Great news. Did they enter directly into 2nd year categorical or they were forced to redo 1st year again ?.

They did not have to repeat a year.

Edit: I should note that it's a two-year prelim program here.

 

[Working Brain]

Dr Blade28:
1) So they finished 2 years preliminary then jumped into Categorical PGY3--->PGY4--->PGY5 and then they qualify for the Board Exam, Am I right ?

2) Are these 2 years preliminary spots at Emory offer the same degree of learning as categorical PGY1 & PGY2 ; i.e.: do they have the same OR experience and role, do they have the same responsibilities & do they receive the same attention from Stuff.

I am asking this because I read before that the responsibilities of the preliminary residents are lesser than that of categorical & my conclusion is that if they completed the remaining 3 year as a categorical, they will always be inefficient due to the inefficient learning they received during the 2 years they spent as preliminary residents.....

 

[Blade28]

(1) Yes, in effect (both went into the lab for 1-2 years after their PGY-2 year to do research).
(2) Yes.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I am asking this because I read before that the responsibilities of the preliminary residents are lesser than that of categorical & my conclusion is that if they completed the remaining 3 year as a categorical, they will always be inefficient due to the inefficient learning they received during the 2 years they spent as preliminary residents.....

That is a false presumption that gets bandied about here and elsewhere frequently. When we've addressed it, the vast majority of respondents here have stated that their Prelims do the same rotations and get the same OR experiences as the Categoricals. I would not make this a major issue when it does not seem to be.

 

[Working Brain]

1) Was their going to lab obligatory ?, I mean did they have the freedom to enter into categorical PGY3-5 after finishing their 2 preliminary years but they chose freely to go to lab instead?

2) What are the disadvantages or negatives that you or other residents with you see in your program (if any) ?.

Thanks alot for your help and patience

 

[Blade28]

1) Was their going to lab obligatory ?, I mean did they have the freedom to enter into categorical PGY3-5 after finishing their 2 preliminary years but they chose freely to go to lab instead?

2) What are the disadvantages or negatives that you or other residents with you see in your program (if any) ?.

(1) To be honest, I'm not sure about the details. Again, we have a very large program (see above) so with lots of people going into the lab and lots of people coming out every year, the numbers have to be "just right" in order for Prelims to continue onto a categorical spot. I don't know if they chose to go to the lab voluntarily or if they did so in the hopes that in 1-2 years a spot would open up.

(2) You're going to apply regardless, right? Since you did away rotations at the Mayo and Emory, and had a good time at each place, I'm assuming there's no way you wouldn't apply there when the times comes. My thoughts on the program itself are well-documented - if you do a search you'll see long posts on this issue - and you should definitely be looking to do research at the numerous other programs where you'll apply. But if you still have questions after applying, before your interview, let me know.

 

[Winged Scapula]

1) Was their going to lab obligatory ?, I mean did they have the freedom to enter into categorical PGY3-5 after finishing their 2 preliminary years but they chose freely to go to lab instead?

2) What are the disadvantages or negatives that you or other residents with you see in your program (if any) ?.

Thanks alot for your help and patience

I think you'll also have to be fair to Blade and other residents here. They are unlikely to post detailed discussions of specific problems with their programs because of the possibility of being identified and suffering some sort of backlash.

So as he suggested, since you are going to apply anyway, if you get an interview, THAT would be the time to ask the residents in person, individually away from faculty, what they see as the weak points.

 

[Working Brain]

Thanks allot for both of you & for every one who posted a useful information on this thread.

It is nice to have some one there to help and advise.