Cedars-Sinai vs. Harbor-UCLA vs. UCLA-Olive View

[bonovox]

Hey, how do these UCLA affiliates compare in terms of:

1. Clinical training
2. Reputation
3. Location
4. "Malignant" or not
5. Fellowship placement (particularly cards)
6. Anything else that would make one choose one over the other two.

Thanks.

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[thefallen]

I'd love to hear other people's opinions as well, but here's my two cents...

Clinical training... depends on what you're looking for. Primarily county training at Harbor and Olive View, "private"/VA at Cedars (since Cedars is actually combined with the West LA VA, and you'll only see the Medicaid/uninsured patients on Cedars wards)

Harbor residents are generally regarded as the busiest. Although Cedars isn't as "cush" as it used to be, since upto half of R2 year is spent at the West LA VA and the Sepulveda VA (aka "Seattle Grace" while they're filming Grey's Anatomy.)

Reputation... In California, all three are very well regarded. But I haven't a clue how differently they may be perceived nationally.

Location. Again, depends on what you're looking for. You could argue Cedars has the nicest location (next to Beverly Hills) but this also gives it horrendous traffic and ridiculous rent to deal with. ($1800/mo for a 1 bedroom is considered a bargain) Olive View is more up in the valley, and you're driving against traffic. Harbor is in more of an urban setting, but Torrance is still pretty nice, at least better than South LA.

Malignant... I don't think any have a rep for being malignant.

Fellowship... again, applying to LA area fellowships, probably about the same, although I don't know the specifics for cards. Can't say what the difference would be nationally.

 

[spumoni620]

I interviewed at all 3 of these and can share my thoughts/impressions, although I'd love to hear residents' views as well (and I'm no authority)

From what I can tell, Olive View and Harbor are probably the best for clinical training. This is according to n = 4-5 UCLA med students, resident interactions/morning reports and my impression of the day. Olive View is a favorite for UCLA students due to "amazing" attendings (haha, I feel like a Zagat review) and is generally regarded as a place where you work hard but have autonomy, exercise your diagnostic skils (ie working up people who have never been seen before by a physician, really diverse range of diseases), receive great guidance and teaching, etc. Mostly Hispanic patients from what I hear. Also, it's smaller than the other 2 affiliates w/o all the consult services, so take that FWIW. Harbor would probably be second or tied for pathology, although here you work harder in terms of scut (from what I hear); i.e. you do draw blood cx and a resident mentioned you have to "follow up" a lot. I was very impressed by the residents/chiefs, they were REALLY nice and just fun to talk to. Negatives: Apparently there was a push to close the hospital down a while back; MLK (a USC county hospital) closed instead. This is scary to me - although I hear that it's going to be around for 'at least" another 4 years, what happens to the residents, training etc if it closes down? Cedars is the nicest but also the cushiest, more than one resident mentioned they picked the place because they wanted a program that "took care" of them; all emphatically stated they were under the 80h work week. I'm sure you'd emerge here well trained as well. As someone pointed out you only see the uninsured pts (not the famous ones) as a resident. By far, this is the most glamorous/glitzy/beautiful hospital I've seen...

As far as rep, my feeling was that Harbor may have an edge here. But I'm not really sure. I think all are well regarded in Cali, as all are UCLA affiliates. None appear to be malignant by any stretch of the imagination.

Location: I think the poster above hit it pretty well. Olive View is in a secluded area but you can live far away and drive against traffic. Harbor is urban, near the Exxon refinery (ahh, smokestacks of urbanization). Cedars is in swanky town minutes away from stores like Kitson, Mikimoto, etc. etc. I don't know if that would just be too crazy for some people. After spending an afternoon walking around the area which was basically dripping in luxury and opulence (I saw paparazzi!!), I almost had to get away due to that sickly, bloated, post-holiday-party-food-and-drink-extravagance feeling. To each his/her own though.

Fellowships: Cedars has great cards, rep for not really favoring their own residents, not sure if this is really the case. Great for GI (spoke to a resident who picked this over UCSF for the potential to get into Cedars GI). You work with big, big names here so potential to get great letters. Harbor is also good for cards (apparently has a very cushy cards program.) Olive View, I'm not really sure. But you do get the chance to rotate at Cedars for up to 2 mos, so could always work with a big name cards fellow here I suppose.

I think that's it. It will definitely be a tough choice for me between these three.

 

[internal plan]

I interviewed at all 3 of these and can share my thoughts/impressions, although I'd love to hear residents' views as well (and I'm no authority)

From what I can tell, Olive View and Harbor are probably the best for clinical training. This is according to n = 4-5 UCLA med students, resident interactions/morning reports and my impression of the day. Olive View is a favorite for UCLA students due to "amazing" attendings (haha, I feel like a Zagat review) and is generally regarded as a place where you work hard but have autonomy, exercise your diagnostic skils (ie working up people who have never been seen before by a physician, really diverse range of diseases), receive great guidance and teaching, etc. Mostly Hispanic patients from what I hear. Also, it's smaller than the other 2 affiliates w/o all the consult services, so take that FWIW. Harbor would probably be second or tied for pathology, although here you work harder in terms of scut (from what I hear); i.e. you do draw blood cx and a resident mentioned you have to "follow up" a lot. I was very impressed by the residents/chiefs, they were REALLY nice and just fun to talk to. Negatives: Apparently there was a push to close the hospital down a while back; MLK (a USC county hospital) closed instead. This is scary to me - although I hear that it's going to be around for 'at least" another 4 years, what happens to the residents, training etc if it closes down? Cedars is the nicest but also the cushiest, more than one resident mentioned they picked the place because they wanted a program that "took care" of them; all emphatically stated they were under the 80h work week. I'm sure you'd emerge here well trained as well. As someone pointed out you only see the uninsured pts (not the famous ones) as a resident. By far, this is the most glamorous/glitzy/beautiful hospital I've seen...

As far as rep, my feeling was that Harbor may have an edge here. But I'm not really sure. I think all are well regarded in Cali, as all are UCLA affiliates. None appear to be malignant by any stretch of the imagination.

Location: I think the poster above hit it pretty well. Olive View is in a secluded area but you can live far away and drive against traffic. Harbor is urban, near the Exxon refinery (ahh, smokestacks of urbanization). Cedars is in swanky town minutes away from stores like Kitson, Mikimoto, etc. etc. I don't know if that would just be too crazy for some people. After spending an afternoon walking around the area which was basically dripping in luxury and opulence (I saw paparazzi!!), I almost had to get away due to that sickly, bloated, post-holiday-party-food-and-drink-extravagance feeling. To each his/her own though.

Fellowships: Cedars has great cards, rep for not really favoring their own residents, not sure if this is really the case. Great for GI (spoke to a resident who picked this over UCSF for the potential to get into Cedars GI). You work with big, big names here so potential to get great letters. Harbor is also good for cards (apparently has a very cushy cards program.) Olive View, I'm not really sure. But you do get the chance to rotate at Cedars for up to 2 mos, so could always work with a big name cards fellow here I suppose.

I think that's it. It will definitely be a tough choice for me between these three.

Push to close Harbor? That is scary. At least another four years?--As it might close in four years??? I think LA County would be pretty strapped right now if Harbor closed after King Drew closed. Do you have any more info on this?

What is FWIW?

 

[Trekkie963]

It's interesting to hear the different perspectives people have on these three programs. Here's my take:

1. Clinical training. Harbor and Olive View probably give you the best training in terms of resident autonomy, diversity of pathology and quality of teaching. Between those two, it really depends who you ask. Students from UCLA seem to really love Olive View (IM at Olive View consistently wins teaching awards from rotating UCLA students). Students from elsewhere seem to really love Harbor. Cedars definitely has a reputation for being a cush program with VIP patients and limited educational experience.

2. Reputation. Again, it varies with who you talk to. Overall I would probably say Harbor > Olive View > Cedars. The top 2 could probably switch back and forth. Olive View is supposed to have excellent teaching, but the stuff that can't be handled at Olive View (such as patients requiring interventional cath) gets transferred to Harbor.

3. Location. Depends on what you want. Cedars is probably in the nicest area and is closest to downtown LA, but with the highest cost of living. Olive View is in more of a suburban area, close-ish to the beach, still not necessarily the most desirable place to live. Harbor is not in a very nice area (but not as bad as, say, East LA) and is far from downtown LA, but if you are willing to drive you can end up living in nice areas along the beach.

4. Malignancy. I think the general concensus is that none of these programs is particularly malignant.

5. Fellowship. I think Harbor gives you the best chance for matching into a competitive fellowship. They do a lot of research at Harbor (in contrast to Olive View) and have an excellent PD who will work to match you into a good fellowship. Harbor has a good cards fellowship, training with superstars such as Dr. Criley, that definitely favors its own. Cedars also has a very strong cards fellowship, but unlike Harbor they have a reputation for not favoring their own grads. One might argue that this is because training in IM at Cedars is not particularly strong, and since the fellowship program in cards is strong at Cedars, they are free to select from graduates of stronger programs. Cedars does have a surprising amount of research for a community hospital, though, which can be helpful during your residency as you try to prepare yourself for fellowship. Olive View is not a particularly "academic" program and does not have many of its own fellowship programs, but as with any of the UCLA affiliated programs you might be able to tap into UCLA for research experience. Still, Olive View is probably not the best choice if you plan to pursue a competitive fellowship.

Those are my impressions of these programs. Amongst my classmates, more people are probably applying to Harbor than any of the other programs, followed by Cedars, then Olive View. The reputation for Harbor is that you will work very hard, but get a very good education. The reputation for Cedars is that it is a cush program and relatively easy to match into. Most people I know did not apply to Olive View, but I think that is mostly because nobody knows anything about it. From what I gather from people who have rotated there, Olive View's strength is in its teaching, and it would probably be an excellent choice for someone interested in pursuing a general IM practice.

I applied to all three of these programs. When I started this process, I thought that Harbor-UCLA would be my first choice overall. After rotating there, I no longer think that is the case, but out of these three it would still be my number one. HTH.

EDIT: I don't know anything about any rumor to close Harbor. Harbor is actually in the process of building some new expansions of the hospital (predominantly the ED). Also, MLK was affiliated with UCLA and the Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, not USC. I think it is now officially King-Harbor.

 

[twizzlers]

I haven't heard anything about Harbor being closed down either. If anything, with MLK being shut down, they need Harbor more than ever.

 

[halodoctor]

Bonovox, Great post!

Thanks to everyone who replied as well.

It took a few searches to find this post, however, and I'm wondering if the admins would consider structuring this forum slightly differently. During these past/next few months, many of the people on SDN are looking for reviews of the programs they've applied to. It would make things so much easier if, under the "internal medicine and subspecialties" forum, there were a subforum on "residency reviews" and under that, there were a breakdown by states (Alabama to Wyoming...wait a minute, does Wyoming have residency training?) In any case, this would make it about a MILLION times easier to navigate this site and use it more efficiently.

What do you guys think?

 

[lostforever]

Harbor is not going to close and has never been close to closing. Although it is a county facility, most of the funding is generated by other means including the vast research done on campus.

MLK inherited the Harbor name for a period of time because the Harbor department chairs where also working at MLK to restructure the hospital. The hospital closed before many changes could take effect. MLK funding has no links with Harbor.

Hope this corrects some of the misconceptions.

 

[kobeismvp]

I'm a former resident at Harbor and wanted to dispel any misconceptions about Harbor-UCLA

1. Not going to close. It is actually more valuable than ever in the scheme of LA-County Hospitals given the closure of MLK.
2. Not affiliated with MLK. Harbor was forced to run MLK as a last ditch effort to save MLK. The reason Harbor was picked was due to its proximity to MLK and its reputation of being a well-run county program
3. Harbor residents do not do blood cultures. A phlebotomy team was implemented in 2006
4. A new hospitalist service was implemented. On long call, teams now cap at midnight.
5. Tons of research comes out of Harbor.
6. The residents the last few years did extremely well with fellowship match, including the more competitive ones...Cards, GI, and Heme-Onc
7. They have a new website, www.harboruclamed.com

Hope that helps everyone!

 

[socaltrojan]

Can someone shed some light on the UCLA-Olive View program? I'm interested in Heme-Onc.

I know it isn't as good as UCLA Reagan, but I'd appreciate any other insight as to fellowship opportunities out of this program and the level of training.

And do you still get a UCLA certificate?

 

[arielred]

I did a few rotations as a medical student at UCLA-Olive View and can honestly say most of the attendings were pretty amazing, they have a nice cafeteria ( if that's a factor lol) and the majority of residents are pretty friendly. As mentioned above, probaby 80% of the patient population is hispanic but you do see a lot of interesting cases.

 

[superbizy]

i interviewed at olive-view and harbor, i'm considering both but had some questoins:
olive view seems to have a nice schedule but i want to do fellowship and i'm concerned that they don't have many research opportunities and fellowship match wasn't great last year. any thoughts? also, a resident told me that they transfer out a lot of patients to other hospitals, which discouraged me since i'd like to see my patients the whole way through.
harbor is opposite, they have good fellowship match but are super bizy (like me ) any thoughts?
other thing i'm worried about is a harbor resident told me that they have to compete with the ucla residents for fellowship spots, so that worries me
good luck with match everyone!

 

[H Y F R]

bump?

 

[ResidencyGuru]

Saw a post over 10 years ago comparing the LA internal medicine (IM) programs, thought would give my 2 cents now that many things have changed...

Original post in 2007 by bonovox...

"Hey, how do these UCLA affiliates compare in terms of:
1. Clinical training
2. Reputation
3. Location
4. "Malignant" or not
5. Fellowship placement (particularly cards)
6. Anything else that would make one choose one over the other two."

Here are your top 2 residency programs in LA.

UCLA-Olive View
1. No doubt the most outstanding clinical training programs of all IM residency in LA, most notably for its horizontal, friendly learning environment. Underserved focused in County training environment. (20-30% clinical experience on MICU/CCU/Wards/Geriatrics at sister institutions at UCLA Ronald Reagan and the VA)
2. A UCLA program
3. Sylmar, California. Beautiful hiking trails and basketball court around campus site. Surprisingly hole-in-the-wall restaurants around the cities from campus. Zen room with free massage for residents/faculty definite a plus.
4. Malignant level - 6-7/10, good balance between life-style and true residency training
5. Outstanding match - mostly intramural at UCLA
6. If you are interest to become master clinician, change leaders for healthcare disparity, UCLA Olive View is your ideal residency in LA

UCLA-Ronald Reagan
1. No doubt the most outstanding physician scientist training programs of all IM residency in LA, most notably for its academic, University based training. Has VA affiliation. (20-30% clinical experience on Wards/Urgent Care at sister institution at UCLA Olive View)
2. A UCLA program
3. Westwood, California. Westwood and close by cities is awesome for everything from nightlife, food, etc. Most expensive place to live in however among all LA residency training programs.
4. Malignant level - 8-9/10, it's residency.... life is tough...
5. Outstanding match - mostly intramural at UCLA
6. If you are interested to become leaders as physician scientist, be involved in cutting edge research, UCLA Ronald Reagan is your ideal residency in LA

Harbor UCLA - arguably the best County training programs 30 years ago, but the pendulum may have shifted to UCLA-Olive View. Harbor is no longer a UCLA affiliated program, a pure County hospital that is transitioning from a chaotic past. Still very solid clinical training. Malignant level 9-10/10

Other notable LA programs:
Cedars Sinai - A very good medicine residency program, notable for its cardiology and transplant department. No longer affiliated with the VA as UCLA programs took over the training ground. Malignant level 4-5/10
Kaiser LA - Excellence healthcare system, good training. arguably the most life-style oriented program. Malignant level 3-4/10
USC - A very good medicine residency program, notably for its underserved County focused. Has a very strong ER residency presence. Malignant level 6-10/10