1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice

Censorship on this website

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Royce, Jun 28, 2000.

  1. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    How interesting it is that my thread was closed down by a grad of the school whose curriculum I took to task.

    You guys are pathetic. You block threads because you don't like what is said. Well, the fact is that Mike posted statistics that showed the relative number of DOs doing high-level residencies--and it's not too encouraging.

    If you continue to close out this threads then YOU'VE lost all objectivity, sir.


    ________________
    From Mike's post on osteopathy v. allopathy

    "The 1st number is total number of DO's in an MD residency followed by a percentage
    of all MD spots occupied by DO's. The numbers came from a joint study by AOA and
    ACGME

    Cardiology- 54: 2% DO
    Colon surgery- 0: 0% DO
    Dermatology- 11:less than 1% DO
    Neurosurgery- 3: less than 1% DO
    OB-GYN- 89: 2% DO
    Opthamology- 5: less than 1% DO
    ENT- 7: less than 1% DO
    Orthopaedics- 15: less than 1% DO
    Pediatric surgery- 0: 0% DO
    Plastics- 3: less than 1% DO
    Surgery- 23: less than 1% DO
    Thoracic surgery- 2: less than 1% DO
    Urology 6: less than 1% DO

    Theoretically if all MD residencies were proportionally occupied by DO's, one would
    expect 10% in all specialties for there are 15 DO schools to 150 MD schools Certainly
    not 50 to 1 (I'm sorry 40 to 1 was a tad off you were right)

    But even in family practice and preventative medicine (DO staples) there are still 15
    MD's to every DO (6% DO for both)

    Though I dont have numbers on it, I would bet the farm on the fact that none of
    those DO's in neurosurgery were doing it at MGH or Hopkins

    The fact of the matter is that despite whatever you may think, DO's still face
    prejudices when applying to MD residencies, and even more so with surgery and
    areas of similiar levels of competition."


    [This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-28-2000).]
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    Royce is of course right regarding facing prejudices getting into MD residencies (calling them allopathic is of course ridiculous).

    We need to acknowledge this and work from there...lying in the face of truth only weakens any legitimacy to anyones argument.

    and thanks for the numbers.

    Regarding censorship...you being a late comer are simply experiencing what has already been futilely fought over....Threads being closed for no particular reason other than whim, allowing the stupidity that often enters into the discussions is an acceptable price to pay for the freedom to express ourselves...but that's only one opinion and not one of the opinions that count

    Having said that, it is necessary to point out that you are not FACING a homogenous group of protectionist osteopathic fanatics, although clearly these types do exist, sticking to the facts and supporting them with documentation will go much farther than grouping everyone into one bunch and labeling them.
     
  4. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adrian, why is it ridiculous to call residencies "allopathic" when they are offered at allopathic hospitals, which are often owned and run by allopathic medical schools? Or is it a case of your being amused with semantics?

    Just wondering what I should call my program. Yours gives a DO and you practice ostepathic medicine. Mine gives the MD and practices ______ medicine?

     
  5. mt

    mt Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Royce,

    What is your purpose? Ok, maybe some DO students may have trouble getting into some top notch residency programs. But, I hate to tell you most MD grads will not go to Hopkins or MGH either. Unless you go to a top med school it is difficult to go to the Hopper or MGH in CERTAIN residencies. I have a freind with an MD, PhD from a state school who did not get an interview at Hopkins or Harvard even with his 93%ile USMLE 1 score. He ended up at another excellent residency but still had trouble with the big boys. Also, remember that many DO students complete AOA residencies therefore your number listed above may not accurately reflect DO ability to secure allopathic residencies. By the way which ivy league school are you attending to secure your Hopkins or MGH residency slot?
     
  6. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    Royce...sorry to not be more clear...the reason it is asinine to call MD programs allopathic is because this is a term that was made up in the 1800's by a HOMEOPATH to separate HOMEOPATHY from the practice of the day, it has no real bearing on today....why would MDs label themselves according to what some quack in the 1800s decided to call them? get my point?
    why agree to the label when it was just a label thrown at you by some outside entity wishing to promote their own agenda?



     
  7. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    You practice MEDICINE....PERIOD...that was the point.
     
  8. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    AND to lee or whoever it was that closed the thread in question....what kind of stupidity is this? IF you think his claims are untrue, then say so and support it with documentation...for god sakes you close a thread that is generating a ton of opinions and posts to keep open what????? threads like:
    does anyone know how to make fudge?

    GEEZ, what do you want from life? rose colored glasses? responding to stupidity with stupidity (and censorship is the ultimate stupidity) isnt exactly going to make your side look that much better!!!!!!

    now, granted I am being a bit harsh in my own right, but damn, what kinda TRUTH ever came out of shutting up the noisy court jester. SO if he is trolling let him troll, DO WE HAVE TO ANSWER HIM? doesnt it SPEAK VOLUMES ABOUT US if we DO answer him and also HOW we answer him????????
    Saying SCREW YOU YOUR CENSORED only LEGITIMIZES some of the very untrue things he has said, while negating the opportunity for RATIONAL people to show the falseness of these claims.
     
  9. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adrian, I would say then that we practice medicine and that, in the words of Eugene Oliveri (sp?), you practice osteopathic medicine. Call it whatever you like, though, as long as you do it well.

    I would like it very much if you WOULD refute my claims. Please use some data that we can all objectively review. I've posted opinions gathered from friends, colleagues--hell, one article came from a former Professor at TCOM! But that was not enough--no, I was just bull****ting. So I pulled out some numbers. Now please do the same or you'll risk being viewed as yet another osteopathically-minded chest-beater whose eyes (and ears) suffer form a peculiar form of selective perception.

    Better hurry up, though. I think I hear Dr. Burnett firing up the censor option in the distance...

    P.S. I'm just whiling away the summer at an easy job. What the hell is a doctor like Lee Burnett doing moderating our arguments anyway? Is he that desperate for extra cash? Jesus, do a few manipulations for the extra money and leave us alone!
     
  10. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    By the way which ivy league school are you attending to secure your Hopkins or MGH residency slot?[/B][/QUOTE]

    Given all the acrimony that I've stirred up on this site, I would be pretty dumb to post my school, especially considering the fact that I have given my stats.

    My own accomplishments--and yours, for that matter--are not the focus of these debates. The relative competitiveness of the DO degree in an MD-dominated world is, and I would like to either keep it that way or change the subject to something less controversial like the Elian Gonzalez question...
     
  11. myrnafir

    myrnafir Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but there was an article on traditional vs. osteopathic medical (OMT) practice on lower back pain in the New England Journal of Medicine (November 4, 1999). The findings were that although both MD's and DO's had comparable results, DO's prescribed less medications. I'll admit, though, there is a paradox- with fewer DO's practicing OMT. But I wouldn't be able to discern why, given the wide range of reasons DO's might not choose to practice OMT. Maybe because more and more of them are going into specialities? Insurance and liability issues? Less emphasis on OMT during their medical education? Who knows.


    [This message has been edited by myrnafir (edited 06-28-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by myrnafir (edited 06-28-2000).]
     
  12. PGY2

    PGY2 Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2000
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Royce, not to be rude, but it seems your agenda here is only to pump up your own ego by finding ways to passively belittle osteopathic physicians. Whether DO or MD, we are all doing the same job (by the way, I am an MD). Although your stats are impressive, it takes alot more than great stats to be a great doctor. I work with attendings who graduated from top notch allopathic medical schools, DO schools, and even some foreign med grads. I've learned that it doesnt matter where you went to medical school, what matters is that you know what you are supposed to know. And even with a great knowledge base, being a doctor requires social skills. Your patients dont care where you went to med school, or where you did your residency. They judge you on only on the rapport you create with them. So you better learn to leave that holier than God attitude at home where it belongs. And another thing, you are going to have to learn to get along with your co-students, residents, and attendings. Residency is difficult enough to deal with without having to put up with inflated egos. One thing you will learn when you start medical school, clinical years, and residency is that you dont know ANYTHING!!!! No matter where you went to school, the nurses know 100x more clinical medicine than you do. You will have to learn to humble yourself and open your mind to learning from anyone who is willing to teach you. I had my preconceptions about DOs too, but you will soon learn, as I did, that in the end, there is no difference... we dont practice allopathic medicine, and osteopaths generally dont practice osteopathic medicine. We all practice evidence based medicine (ever heard of that?)We do what works. Not to put you down or anything, but until you've been through it, like others have, please dont try to portray yourself as an expert in the field. You havent really experienced anything yet.

    M.D. PGY2
     
  13. fiatslug

    fiatslug Senior Member
    Physician 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2000
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    In Royce's defense, he maintained a rational level of argument in his posts for MUCH LONGER than most of the people who responded to him. They made it personal, and about ego, long before he did.
     
  14. mj

    mj Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey Shoe, maybe Lee closed the thread down because Royce was posting llllloooonnnngggg post. You know that is a no-no. Long post are supposed to be e-mailed. [​IMG]

    Royce -- I'm only a lowly premed, and you seem so knowledgable, maybe you can help me understand some things.

    1. People keep telling me that where you end up at for residency is all about your board scores and grades. Seems to me, even if I go to a lousy school, DO or MD, as long as I'm motivated to do extra work on my own it really doesn't matter that much. I mean DOs are in MD residencies now right? So doesn't that mean that if someone was really interested in doing something besides family practice they could, as long as they worked at it?

    2. I always thought that DOs and MDs made the same money within specialties?

    3. Aren't DOs and MDs both doctors? I'm new to all of this so I could be wrong, but that's what I've been told. If in the end you get to play doctor, does it really matter that much where someone goes to school?

    hhhhmmm...The numbers I'm looking at say that out of the 40 odd thousand applicants only about 18 odd thousand get to even go...They also say that of those 18 thousand 11 only get in to just ONE school. Of the 7 thousand left with multiple accepts I would bet that a large majority only get into either both allo or osteo schools. Even if you go half getting both DO and MD accepts, that means that of the original 40 thousand this issue of do I go MD or DO is really only germaine to less than 10% of people who ever apply.

    Hard to see what all the fuss is about. Most people don't get a choice anyway. Heck, the majority don't even get to be a doctor at all, looks like. I'd say compared to the guy in the 22 thousand that didn't get in at all, DO students have it pretty good.

    Seems to me if you were interested in helping youngjock (whose MCAT by the way is only a 24) you would be encouraging him to apply to all the seemingly "easy" schools.

    Once in it appears that it's all about how bad somebody wants do well. Sure you might have the "stigma" of dealing with the whole DO thing, but you will be making a decent living, doing something you really wanted to do, helping people, something not everyone gets to do (22,000 every year). I don't know. If I had all of that, I don't think it would bother me too much that people don't know what a DO is.

    Am I missing something?

    confused pre med

    mj
     
  15. Lee

    Lee Sleestack
    Staff Member Administrator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1999
    Messages:
    11,199
    Likes Received:
    2,127
    MDApps:
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    From time to time the website needs to take actions on posts or threads because of potential legal issues.

    I encourage open discussion and sharing of ideas at the SDN Student Forums, even if administrators or moderators disagree with the content.

    However, I'd like to recommend that posters at any board always use documented data when making potentially damaging statements about persons or entities.
     
  16. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    i like the post stating what we both do is:
    evidence based medicine....there is no real difference in approach to medical problems between most DOs and their MD counterparts...and if Royce could step into the wayback machine four years ago he would see that his idea isnt unique that MD and DO really are the same thing except for the OMM which some DOs do use. I would never claim that i am going to practice OSTEOPATHIC medicine as anyone who reads my past posts knows, the term osteopathy became antiquated with the advent of DOs gaining full practice rights..
    ...i plan to practice medicine..period...and if someone wants some OMM (and i can bill for it..LOL) i may practice a little manipulation also..just as i will practice culposcopy if so trained or any other modality i feel current in...but medicine is medicine and like it or not there is a lot of truth to Royces reasons why many people go DO, where he misses the boat is in COMPARING HIMSELF to DO students...because being anonymous he doesnt even truly exist for comparison...what we have to compare is if there is OVERLAP between the two populations of premeds going MD or DO and clearly there is a great deal of overlap if you look at the minimum scores accepted at MD institutions and the minimum MCATS...by royces own criteria MD institutions are admittedly LETTING IN INFERIOR CANDIDATES compared to the top candidates at DO institutions...thus the GPA and the MCAT are NOT appropriate indicators of who ultimately gets into the MD schools.

    the bigger issue is why should any of us care...as many of the DO graduates have pointed out...once you get into MED school, it becomes totally irrelevant whether you are a DO or an MD because you are going to be a doctor and you are going to work, if you are competent and caring you will develop a big practice...it is that simple.....will there always be a few people holding that last vestige of pain, rejection and anger toward not getting into an MD program? as i said four years ago, these people do exist and their bruised ego and eagerness to strike out at the MDs while deluding themselves about their own motives is a very sad thing to witness...all it takes is one Royce and these people boil out of the walls like roaches during fumigation week....if we just LEARN MEDICINE and FOCUS on THAT, all this silly banter about allopathy/osteopathy and our own personal inferiority complexes will melt under the fire of our emerging competence as physicians....good luck and darwin bless you all.
     
  17. miglo

    miglo Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 1999
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow I feel so sad for you Royce. You must have some serious issues/low self-esteem to have to bash DO students with these lame arguments. Do you feel like a big dog now mister MD? Please keep in mind that the data you posted was based on an article in the 1994 JAOA. Thats 1994, SIX years ago. A lot has changed since 1994 bro. I might actually care if you posted something from 1998+, but as it stands, you just have a chip on your shoulder. Why don't you relax and just enjoy the fact you got in somewhere? or is it because you didnt get into anywhere? Do you actually feel threaten by these few DOs that get into these competitive residencies? Let see (pulling numbers out of my a$$), there are about what? 4000 or so DOs graduated a year? 75% of them go into primary care, so that leaves 1000 left. Im assuming most of these guys will take up what, 600 or so spots in AOA residencies? so whats left, 400 measely DOs. And you are worried about 400 DOs to 40,000 MDs that graduate each year? Maybe there are so few DOs in these top-tier residencies is because there are so few leftover DOs that apply. I bet it just kills you to know that theres are DOs out there that will be making more money than you huh?

    So pull that stick out of yer a$$ and enjoy the summer before school starts. Peace.
     
  18. mj

    mj Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1
    Lee -- WHAT???????

    I even went and re read Royce?s post you closed and, I'm sorry, where are the legal issues? I must just be overlooking them as he clearly prefaced EVERYTHING he said as opinion.

    For months now we've all had to endure Adrianshoes grousing about NOVA, and, despite our pleas for mercy, you never closed those posts because of "legal issues". How is it any different?

    I don't know Lee. I don't mean any disrespect, but your argument seems kind of slippery.

    Can't believe Adrianshoe let you get away with it...hmmm
     
  19. Lee

    Lee Sleestack
    Staff Member Administrator 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1999
    Messages:
    11,199
    Likes Received:
    2,127
    MDApps:
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    If you have questions about the closing of the thread, please contact me via email.

    [This message has been edited by Lee A Burnett (edited 06-29-2000).]
     
  20. Paul's Boutique

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 1999
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't like western? Don't go there.

    Do you feel OK, Royce? You may need some help...
     
  21. student

    student Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Royce,

    In my opinion there are two main problems with your line of reasoning.

    The first is that you are not taking into account the effect of the AOA match on the numbers of DOs in allopathic residencies. I would think that the most qualified DO applicants would match into one of the few AOA slots for the aforementioned residencies. I would guess that most of them would be required to sign contracts before the allopathic match takes place.

    Secondly, it is possible that many of the most qualified DO applicants would have little interest in the residencies that you have alluded to. I mention this because during my interviews I met one or two students who were third generation DOs. From what I saw, these kids were extremely intelligent. They were, of course, doing OMM fellowships.

    Thanks for posting the stats. If you happen to have more, please share them. I am a statistics freak.

     
  22. wheatfarmer

    wheatfarmer Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    Royce-dog, Royce-o-Roni, Royce-inator, Royce-opoly, R-money, OG-Royceman, Roycenstein, Bride of Roycenstein, Royceman, Super-Ego from the planet Royce, McRoyce, Big Poppa R-dawg.


    Just wanting to add some flava, to the "Royce Vs the world" debate by offering some alternatives to just saying "Royce".
     
  23. Quin

    Quin New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    My two cents...

    I've been watching this forum from afar since the last debacle regarding Nova ('sup Adrian)...

    Adrian's post a few messages up is correct, as is PGY2's...

    I'm going to be practicing medicine. Emergency Medicine hopefully. I'm going to be practicing my own "form" of medicine. Osteopathic? (I do go to NSU-COM). Probably not. Allopathic? Probably not. Quinn-opathic? Yes. I will add my own flavor to what I have been taught in medical school and also what I will learn in my internship and residency. If I choose to do OMM, cool. If I choose to be a doc who does very little H/P and relies on lab reports, cool. If I sit down with a great bedside manner and really do care about my patients, cool. Med school si what you make of it. I'm making the best of it because it is helping me become what I've always wanted to become. A physician. . <-period

    DOs don't get much respect in certain hospitals? I'm sure. I remember in 6th grade when I didn't get much respect because I wore sweatpants all the time. I remember in 10th grade I didnt' get much respect because I was twenty pounds underweight. I remember the "popular" people picking on me. But I do remember a year later when I bulked up and was bigger than most, those earlier "persecutors" wanted to be my friend... I could have had respect from them, but I chose not to. I didn't, and don't, want to associate with people who can make judgements about people without learning more about who THEY are, not on what kind of clothes they wear, how big they are, or what school they go to... or even the letters behind their last name.

    I'm gonna be a doctor. plain and simple. Maybe when I'm an ER doctor and your kid comes in post MVA, you will worry that I am a competent physician, not that I am a DO or an MD.

     
  24. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    It makes no difference what current or soon-to-be DO students think of their program. For that matter, I would certainly hope that they do believe in their program; why spend $100 K or more if you think it's a crock?

    The purpose of my writing has been to educate the Young Jocks of the world. He/she came on board and asked a question regarding osteopathy. A bunch of DOs came dashing over the proclaim the field completely free of any residual public doubts and I pointed out that was simply not true. I then went on to note that many allopathic programs are not as enthusiastic towards DOs as they are MDs. Neither of my assertions are untrue, yet I was branded a liar, in posession of a shizoid personality, an ego maniac, etc.

    Typically when one is faced with overwhelming evidence against their case, which in this case is that osteopathy is a better way to get into medicine given the choice of both possible routes to practice, the person under fire reacts in one of two ways: they either make up an avalanche of nonsense (wheatie comes to mind--thanks for the nicknames and ignoring the fact that I know probably as much about DO schools as any DO pre-med) or attempt to refute the claims (a few people questioned the relevancy of data from 1994--not a bad point).

    If people think that my attitude is condescending, I can't wait to hear what they think of their professors. I speak as a well-educated person, something that all medical students should be able to accept without discomfort, if not wholly appreciate and/or demand.

    Another interesting issue is that of the credentials of people posting on the Web. First of all, whether I scored a 28 (DO average, by the way) or got a 38, my point is still a valid one because it's not something that isn't documented elsewhere. And why on earth would someone think that claiming a person is going to a Caribbean school would discredit them? Dumb.

    The Princeton Review site points out that DOs face extra difficulty getting MD residencies in certain fields. There are many other sources, one of which was a guy who taught at one of your schools, TCOM. Is he a liar, a fake, an apparition conjured up just to hurt some DO's feelings, too?

    Lastly, for a group of people who, on balance, argue that they are mature enough to handle medical school, and who feel their approach to medicine is more "humane" than that of their counterparts, I can only say one thing: what a load of rubbish. There was name-calling done here that should embarrass us all.
     
  25. Royce:

    If you screamed any louder for attention, I'd have to protect my ears. You can't even begin to complain about the level of maturity you've encountered here when you've insisted upon assaulting the integrity of some 40,000 practicing physicians. It's guys like you and ADRIAN that cry buckets of tears when your pet golfish dies.

    I've noticed that you've alluded to some unspoken reciprocation of reverence by the allopathic and osteopathic participants on this site: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Royce. While you're clinging to the insinuation that DO Graduates struggle to obtain the most competitive ACGME Residencies (for whom it concerns: I got a letter from David Leach, MD--the Executive Director of the ACGME Organization--stating that 1100 of the 2500 DOs annually immediately enter ACGME Programs following graduation), and I personally can't discount the virtue of that remark, you're neglecting the fact that there are AOA Programs that offer students the opportunity to complete very Specialized Residencies and earn licensure to practice Medicine!

    I don't care if you consider yourself to be a relatively intelligent young man, Royce, and I don't care if you choose to have breakfast with your MCAT score and a glass of orange juice; you've lost perspective regarding what your priorities should be in order to be an admirable physician. It will take 24 hours until the respectable people that have been responding to your posts out of common courtesy to dismiss you as a flailing, spitting imp, but it might take you several more years to command the maturity that you've ironically expected from your discussion partners here--your reprehensible conduct thus far is immediately suspect. You might as well get started on that endeavour this afternoon because nobody likes a bigot, Royce.

    I'm curious to learn about where your misguided expectations of Medical professionals will end: do you have an opinion about female physicians? About minority physicians? About physicians with MCAT scores below 30? How about physicians practicing in the Northwest? I'd assume that your sentiments about these sects and others would be similar to how you entertain those with the D.O. degree.

    P.S. "wheatfarmer" has become my favorite visitor of this discussion group. [​IMG]
     
  26. myrnafir

    myrnafir Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey!

    I cried buckets (boo-kays) of tears when the first of my 5 goldfishes died. When I was 8.
     
  27. adismo

    adismo covered in moon dust
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2000
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    1
    Not that I know anything, Royce et al but I feel compelled to ask for your bibliographic sources for the posts about how difficult it is to be an osteopathic doctor etcetera, ad nauseum. The reason is fairness; let the readers find the entire article(s) and read for themselves and interpret for themselves what the residency match results for DO's mean.
    By now it's perfectly clear; yes its harder to obtain an MD residency if youre a DO because of prejudices, issues, and so on. DONE! DONE! And again I say DONE! Fine! Lets not argue this like kids.
    But you see Royce-jigga, I already knew that. And so do most premeds; don't be so presumptuous as to think that most college graduates are about to go blindly into $160k debt without doing a bit of research as to what ost med is (oops, sorry adrianshoe, i did say MOST, not all). Your reason for imputing this ignorace to students is not beyond me, but its time to stop projecting your personal issues on others.
     
  28. Royce

    Royce Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Female docs, black docs, Mexican docs, white male docs--they're all fine in my eyes.

    It's people who are just beginning their search for a medical school that I addressed in my "List for Young Jock." The fact that you guys found it offensive and fired back with a number of permutations of "Royce" just added to my argument that DOs are a bit silly.

    Wheatfarmer--what a great ally. Nobody who says such silly things could be taken seriously by intelligent pre-meds.

    I'm ready for the next one, guys!
     
  29. mj

    mj Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1
    "Care" is kind of a strong word Shoe. Aren't you at least a little logically offended, though, that someone who has been through the process (Royce) would advise a borderline applicant (youngjock MCAT 24) that he shouldn't apply to DO schools because of some prejudice, real or imagined?

    At least when you bashed Nova you gave intelligent advice..."If you're gonna go there think about this, don't do this, learn about rotation choices early..." Royce is just spewing nonsensical dribble under the guise of "helping".

    Even if he is 110% right on a lot of what he says, telling a pre med NOT to apply somewhere, given the fact that getting in ANYWHERE is statistically improbable, is just plain illogical, especially since he thinks DO schools are easier to get into.

    His point is really moot. Only about 9% of all applicants get accepted to both MD and DO school. Half don?t get in, 2/3 that do only get in at 1 school. The choice of where you go to school pretty much isn't even yours. Heck the choice of whether you go to school isn't yours. So you get accepted to a DO school. Do you not go because of some supposed prejudice? That's ludicrous.

    I could care less about the whole MD/DO thing, but at least argue something intelligent, or shut up.
     
  30. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 1998
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't you get what wheatfarmer is saying?

    He is saying "one who plays and acts like a little kid, deserves answers like little kid'

    and that is how I see you, a spoiled little child.
     
  31. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    But, that is the point ewag...THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO ANSWER SUCH A PERSON, it only demeans YOU...wheatfarmer doesnt come across with any validity by acting just as childish as the next poster, he only weakens his position, just as vegeta weakens his arguments by choosing to attack me (i have tried to be objective and neutral in this discussion) for no real reaon in his otherwise cogent arguments...this NAMECALLING and PERSONAL ATTACK mentality weakens any points any of us make.
    What has Royce really said?
    1. Did he ever directly say that a person with a 24 shouldnt try to go DO? if so then MJ is correct in attacking that IDEA because it is not a valid point for Royce to make.

    2. Did he ever eat his goldfish?

    3. is there truth to the ideas that DOs are somewhat reactionary regarding being attacked? apparently there is.
    4. is there truth to the idea that some MD programs are resistant to DOs: obviously, for some very political and monetary reasons that Royce may not even be aware of.
    5. Has Royce acted as a child at times? not any more so than those who have been rebutting him.
    His points about the rebound attacks upon him are valid...they do not serve to counterpoint his position they serve only to strengthen his position with any of the neutral premeds who as he say are his audience.

    This "mature approach" of making up silly names simply to insult him make YOU seem childish.

    sticking to the points and not the trashdump would be a more appropriate approach, ignoring the silly ideas or giving clearcut data to refute disspassionately such ideas is also more appropriate.

    As for contacting anyone regarding censorship privately, that is not appropriate...if you choose to close a thread simply because you dont happen to like its content and then try to justify it with arguments that dont hold up, or that seemingly CHANGE as there is resistance to your actions, you should expect an open discussion of your actions.
     
  32. "As for contacting anyone regarding censorship privately, that is not appropriate...if you choose to close a thread simply because you dont happen to like its content and then try to justify it with arguments that dont hold up, or that seemingly CHANGE as there is resistance to your actions, you should expect an open discussion of your actions."--ADRIAN

    Actually, ADRIAN, I find it entirely appropriate for the Administrator to close the aforementioned embarrassingly denigrated thread, but I suppose opinions vary. Royce himself has verbalized that there are reasons to remain optimistic about Osteopathic Medicine. I'm still curious about who these hypocritical physicians (with the venerable MD degree), amongst the 600,000 other such physicians practicing across the United States, are that labor to find legitimate reasons to concern themselves with the adequacy and aptitude of DOs. Given the fact that several Osteopathic institutions are relatively modern, I should think that many Pre-Meds would be surprised by how much interest the practicality of 250 extra hours of OMT has elicited; OMT isn't meant to kill anyone: these techniques assist in diagnosis and therapy! Apparently Royce seems well-acqainted with those hopefully professional individuals, whom I resign all credibility (along with the pathetic altercation that he's been generating for the past two or three days), that disapprove of that venture.

    Royce is beyond the scope of reason, ADRIAN. I'm more interested to learn about why YOU would perpetuate this meaningless discussion (I won't even dignify your assertion that you've remained neutral). I'm beginning to believe that your endurance of Royce's banter is ultimately well-intentioned as you trust Osteopathic advocates will remedy Royce's disheveled attacks (which is inevitable) while alerting Osteopathic schools of their need to better equipt themselves. I sincerely hope, ADRIAN, that you're not inconsiderately poisoning the aquarium.
     
  33. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    I am at a total loss....how have i taken sides other than agree with some obvious points that MOST DOs already agree with?
    ....most DOs recognize we have a name recognition problem and that there is an inherent bias that has been greatly improved within the past two decades yet still exists...most DOs also will be honest and say that many of us became DOs due to the fact that we were not able to overcome whatever admissions criteria the MD community uses....being honest shouldnt hurt us, nor should the fact that somehow we seem to become quite competent and well compensated despite our humble beginnings (see, i am now DISAGREEING with royce's view in this instance because he is obviously wrong here)

    How am I PERPETUATING anything? i just expressed my ideas regarding how we can best speak honestly and appropriately to attacks that seem extremist while having some grains of truth buried within them....help me figure this out, because i really am a bit confused on where you are coming from.
     
  34. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    I would also agree with you that the OMM courses when incorporated properly in the overall medical education process SHOULD DEFINITELY give the DO student an opportunity to develop diagnostic skills.
     
  35. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 1998
    Messages:
    6,945
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Just an FYI in order to keep this debate in the realm of an evidence-based discussion...

    Traditional predictors of academic success in medical school (MCATs and GPA) have actually been shown to account for a limited amount of the variance in predicting overall success in medical school or medical practice. It appears that other noncognitive characteristics, such as students' attitudes towards psychosocial dimensions of patient care, may be more relevant in predicting clinical competency, at least in some domains.

    TITLE: Students' psychosocial characteristics as predictors of academic performance in medical school.

    AUTHORS:Hojat M; Robeson M; Damjanov I; Veloski JJ; Glaser K; Gonnella JS

    AUTHOR AFFILIATION:Center for Research in Medical Education and Health Care, Jefferson Medical College, Philadelphia, PA 19107-5083.
    SOURCE: Acad Med 1993 Aug;68(8):635-7
    CITATION IDS:pMID: 8352877 UI: 93356908

    ABSTRACT:
    PURPOSE: To investigate the incremental effects of selected psychosocial measures--beyond the effects of conventional admission measures--in predicting students' academic performances in medical school. METHODS. In 1989-90, 210 second-year students at Jefferson Medical College were each asked to complete 11 psychosocial questionnaires that were then used as predictors of performance measures in medical school. The students' scores on three subtests of the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) were also used as predictors. Three composite measures of performance were used as the criterion measures: basic science examination grades, clinical examination grades, and ratings of clinical competence. A multiple regression algorithm (general linear model) was used for statistical analysis. RESULTS. The response rate was 83% (175 students). When the psychosocial measures were added to the statistical models in which the common variances of the MCAT scores were already determined, significant increments in the common variances were observed for two of the three performance measures: basic science grades and clinical examination grades. Whereas only 4% of the common variance in the ratings of clinical competence could be accounted for by the MCAT scores, 14% could be accounted for by the psychosocial measures. CONCLUSION. The "noncognitive," or psychosocial, measures increased the magnitude of the relationships between the predictive and criterion measures of the students' academic performances, beyond the magnitude attained when only the conventional admission measures were used. Therefore, psychosocial measures should be considered as significant and unique predictors of performance in medical school.


    TITLE:Evaluating the predictive validity of MCAT scores across diverse applicant groups.
    AUTHORS:Koenig JA; Sireci SG; Wiley A
    AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Association of American Medical Colleges, Washington, DC 20037-1127, USA. [email protected]
    SOURCE: Acad Med 1998 Oct;73(10):1095-106

    CITATION IDS: PMID: 9795629 UI: 99011721
    ABSTRACT: PURPOSE: To examine the predictive validity of MCAT scores, alone and in combination with other preadmission data, for medical students grouped by race/ethnicity and sex. METHOD: This study included two samples: 1,109 students who entered in 1992 any of the 14 medical schools participating in the MCAT Predictive Validity Study; and all 11,279 students who entered medical school in 1992 and took the USMLE Step 1 in June 1994. Criterion measures included each student's cumulative GPA in the first two
    years of medical school and his or her pass/fail status on Step 1. Differential predictive validity was examined by comparing prediction errors across racial/ethnic and sex groups. For cumulative GPA; residuals were compared, and for Step 1, classification errors were studied. RESULTS: The patterns of
    prediction errors observed across the groups indicated that, on average, (1) no difference between the sexes in prediction errors was evident; (2) performances of the three racial/ethnic minority groups tended to be overpredicted, with significant findings for Asians and Hispanics; and (3) Caucasians' performance tended to be underpredicted, although the magnitude of this underprediction was quite small. When
    USMLE Step 1 scores were the criterion for success in medical school, the majority of errors were overprediction errors. CONCLUSION: The authors caution that although MCAT scores, alone and in combination with undergraduate GPA, are good predictors of medical school performance, they are not perfect. The authors encourage future research exploring additional predictor variables, such as diligence, motivation, communication skills, study habits, and other relevant characteristics. Similarly, they indicate that high grades and Step 1 scores are not the only indicators of success in the medical profession and call for studies examining other important qualities, such as integrity, interpersonal skills, capacity for caring, willingness to commit to lifelong learning, and desire to serve in underserved areas.


    It is generally agreed that DO admission committees have historically "looked beyond the numbers" in their admission process in order to attract candidates who embrace the primary care missions of DO schools as well as possess emotional and personal characteristics that are congruent with traditional osteopathic principles and practices. Thus, DO and MD schools tend to be quite "culturally different" in their approach to physician education. Moreover, DO students tend to identify as being more "socioemotionally" oriented than MD students do. In general, the decision to pursue generalist over specialist training has been shown to be decided very early in medical training and is often tied to significant personal values.

    TITLE: Comparison of osteopathic and allopathic medical Schools' support for primary care. AUTHORS:peters AS; Clark-Chiarelli N; Block SD

    AUTHOR AFFILIATION :Department of Ambulatory Care and Prevention, Harvard Medical School and Harvard Pilgrim Helath Care, Boston, MA 02215, USA.
    SOURCE:J Gen Intern Med 1999 Dec;14(12):730-9

    CITATION IDS:pMID: 10632817 UI: 20098970

    ABSTRACT:OBJECTIVE: To contrast prevailing behaviors and attitudes relative to primary care education and practice in osteopathic and allopathic medical schools. DESIGN: Descriptive study using confidential
    telephone interviews conducted in 1993-94. Analyses compared responses of osteopaths and allopaths,controlling for prJgiary care orientation. SETTING: United States academic health centers.PARTICIPANTS: National stratified probability samples of first-year and fourth-year medical students, postgraduate year 2 residents, and clinical faculty in osteopathic and allopathic medical schools, a sample of allopathic deans, and a census of deans of osteopathic schools (n = 457 osteopaths; n = 2,045 allopaths). MEASUREMENTS: Survey items assessed personal characteristics, students' reasons for entering medicine, learners' prJgiary care educational experiences, community support for prJgiary care, and attitudes toward the clinical and academic competence of prJgiary care physicians. MAIN RESULTS:primary care physicians composed a larger fraction of the faculty in osteopathic schools than in allopathic schools. Members of the osteopathic community were significantly more likely than their allopathic peers to describe themselves as socioemotionally oriented rather than technoscientifically oriented. Osteopathic learners were more likely than allopathic learners to have educational experiences in primary care venues and with primary care faculty, and to receive encouragement from faculty, including specialists, to enter primary care. Attitudes toward the clinical and academic competence of prJgiary care physicians were consistently negative in both communities. Differences between communities were sustained after controlling for prJgiary care orientation. CONCLUSIONS: In comparison with allopathic schools, the cultural practices and educational structures in osteopathic medical schools better support the production of prJgiary care physicians. However, there is a lack of alignment between attitudes and practices in the osteopathic community.

    TITLE: A model for improving generalist physician output: the osteopathic experience.
    AUTHORS: Cummings M; Ennis M

    AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine, IL 60515.
    SOURCE: Acad Med 1995 Jan;70(1 Suppl):S57-63
    CITATION IDS:
    PMID: 7826459 UI: 95127039

    ABSTRACT: Osteopathic medicine is identified closely with primary care. Approximately one-half of all doctors of osteopathy (DOs) are family practitioners. The educational model responsible for producing such a high
    percentage of generalist physicians should be better understood for its achievements. Colleges of osteopathic medicine are unique in sharing a common mission of producing primary care physicians, and their methodologies reflect a similarly shared educational emphasis. Compared to allopathic medical schools, colleges of osteopathic medicine are the highest producers of generalist physicians because of several common features. This article evaluates colleges of osteopathic medicine by profiling each institution according to characteristics that have a potential impact on the output of generalist physicians :(1) institutional ownership; (2) age; (3) class size; (4) leadership; (5) educational focus; (6) whole-time as opposed to adjunct clinical faculty; (7) clinical educational settings; (8) clinical training sites; and (9) reliance on MD rather than DO clinical faculty. Comparisons between colleges of osteopathic medicine according to these characteristics yield mixed results but also highlight many differences from allopathic educational models. Factors separating the highest from lowest producers of generalist physicians vary at colleges of osteopathic medicine, and other characteristics or circumstances beyond their control may affect the number of graduates pursuing careers in primary care.

    TITLE: A national study of factors influencing the career choice of osteopathic and allopathic family physicians.
    AUTHORS:Xu G; Cummings M; Veloski JJ; Brose J
    AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Office of Research, Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Athens 45701, USA.
    SOURCE:J Am Osteopath Assoc 1996 Dec;96(12):737-42
    CITATION IDS: PMID: 9111776 UI: 97265952

    ABSTRACT: This study examines the differences between osteopathic and allopathic physicians regarding those factors influencing their career choice of family practice. A total of 256 osteopathic physicians and 717 allopathic family physicians were surveyed. The surveyed physicians graduated in 1983 and 1984. Comparisons were made on 19 variables that influenced the physicians' decisions to enter family practice as well as on the six factor scores derived from these 19 variables. Osteopathic physicians' decisions to choose family practice was more influenced by financial obligations, medical school experiences, and family values, whereas the allopathic physicians were more influenced by personal social value. Overall, medical school experience and personal social value were two important factors that explained the largest variances of the 19 predictors influencing physicians' decisions to enter family practice. Those allopathic medical schools whose mission emphasizes the production of generalist physicians may be able to model some approaches already in place at osteopathic medical schools. Because of the influence of the personal social value factor in medical students' choosing family practice medicine, this factor warrants further study.


    I think that it is valuable to discuss the differences and similarities between MD and DO approaches to medical education. However, I wish that some members would base their assumptions and generalizations on reliable information and not rumor or anecdote.



    [This message has been edited by drusso (edited 06-29-2000).]
     
  36. wheatfarmer

    wheatfarmer Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry Adrian, I wanted to sling some mud...I was actually enjoying it. And, I know, that when the time comes, you enjoy it too!

    I apologize to anyone who took me too seriously. I am from an "In your face" type of town, and some people are not used to that.
    take it easy.
     
  37. ADRIAN:

    First, after witnessing Royce's most recent self-recriminating tirade, I'm sure you're compelled to support the Administrator's closure of one sadly deteriorating thread. I presume that the consensus would agree that his "extremist attacks" had only a subsistent amount of "grains of truth." Forgive me for being unappreciative of your attempt to moderate the Moderators by petitioning for the continuation of that debacle (which was more an unfavorable, malicious corruption and less an informative investigation).

    Second, why would you acknowledge a "name recognition problem," as you've phrased it, without delineating between Royce's false assumption that DOs are academically deficient (of course, you've corrected yourself in your last two posts) and the realistic explanation of the public's lack of identification with DOs (ACGME Directors unexcused) being that they're bodily outnumbered?
     
  38. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    i totally disagree with your premise that what Royce was doing constitutes a debacle...THE RESPONSE to Royce was a debacle...what positives came of it?
    keeping the thread open might have allowed a more mature development of thoughts...the key word there i feel is MIGHT.
    and actually wheatfarmer, i dont enjoy slinging mud at all, in fact the only times i do so is when someone PERSONALLY attacks me rather than taking the more educated approach of ripping into my thought processes...and as has been pointed out this isnt always an appropriate action upon my part.
    ENJOYING throwing dirt...i cant even begin to understand that mindset...my name is John Shewmaker, I am not anonymous....I have no intention of engaging in a mindless war with nameless individuals for my own personal enjoyment that would be as silly as believing someone's braggadocio regarding their gpa or mcat, why dignify it?...Topics are what this forum is about and that is where i wish to focus my energies, if in so doing my attitudes (as decoded by those readers within their own biases) cause offense, then that is usually a result of another's misunderstanding of what i am saying....it takes two to communicate, so asking for clarification is a more adult approach than a mindless attack.
     
  39. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 1998
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calm down...hopefully this is all over.

    Everybody reacts to things differently, and no one is right or wrong for acting the way they did. I have seen some SERIOUS name calling by Mr. Shoemaker, wheatfarmer, Royce, and others including myself. NO ONE IS AN INNOCENT LAMB. We all pay for our sins in one way or another, so lets admit to our wrong-doings (past and present) and go about our daily tasks.

    See ya.
     
  40. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    again, i disagree.
    not seeing that your actions are wrong allow you no room for growth....
    you are right, i have made the mistake of "serious name calling" in the past, for whatever reason, and almost always it was beyond what i would expect of myself, therefore it was inappropriate...i have no intention of sheilding myself from recognizing my actions were in error for in so doing I negate any chance at allowing the experience to let me handle the next situation better.

    Justifying the inappropriate past actions of oneself and others is to me a worse "crime" than the actual actions themselves.
    again this is just my opinion.
     
  41. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 1998
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dude,
    I really think you should just calm down. This board is pretty silly, it is a little fantasy land. I have heard you spew some pretty mean and awful things from your keyboard directed at soooo many people, I find it hard to believe this new bit of honor and humility.
    But you know what, this is a goofy web page, that is filled with hidden agendas and blatent attacks. I would hope , that people realize that this is not real life, this is only a silly, silly web page.

    I am sure you will disagree with me, as you always do...but you see, I don't really care. Because I don't know ANY OF YOU. And I don't put more than 5 cents into any of the petty arguments myself and others engage in.

    It is ALL ENTERTAINMENT. I have far more worthwhile things to bitch about regarding the real physical world.

    I am gonna take a bit of a break from this board, and I would bet the wheatfarmer will too. People are taking this a little too seriously.
     
  42. wheatfarmer

    wheatfarmer Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    "CRIME"?? what crime was committed? This is a web address, this is a dream world.

    Adrian, are you even centered in reality? This is less of real life than "Survivor"!

    Take some a pill man, get a life, and calm down.

    And if you are gonna defend this new morality of yours by saying that alot of people get their information about DO's from pages like this...well, I think perhaps people should take a trip to the park and interact with some REAL human beings...not the digital variety.

    "Crime" hahaha, how dramatic.
     
  43. mj

    mj Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wow, Shoe. I'm impressed. Does this mean I have to get a new bodyguard? lol

    drusso: Do you think the argument could be made that the psychosocial measures are indirectly screened for in the interview process?

    Secondly, don't you think Royce would most likely argue that your second article more supports his premise that DO students aren't really cut out for allo residencies givenof their "socioemotional" orientation?

    Vegeta

    "after witnessing Royce's most recent self-recriminating tirade, I'm sure you're compelled to support the Administrator's closure of one sadly deteriorating thread."

    What???? Whether one agrees with Royce or not, thinks he is a child or not, believes it to be informative or not, does NOT justify censorship!!!!!. You don't like what someone says, turn the channel. Don't take away their right to say it, as that limits the flow of ideas and exchange of information. What if our evenhanded moderators decided they would close all threads on NYCOM because they thought you weren't saying nice things? Don't potential NYCOMers deserve to hear ALL you have to say, good or bad, so they can form a balanced opinion?

    Ewag/Wheat: Remember, this board is the ONLY contact a lot of pre meds have with anything DO related. Regardless of how "authentic" you view this board, for a lot of pre meds, this is their first source of info in the "digital age". Even if they don't use the information, they go away with an impression. Like it or not, they tie that impression to what they think about DOs. Right, wrong or indifferent, that's just reality.

    My guess is any pre med who's followed the Royce post comes away believing DOs are a bunch of reactionaries and that maybe there really is something to the prejudice argument if they are so sensitive about it.


    mj


    [This message has been edited by mj (edited April 04, 2001).]
     
  44. wheatfarmer

    wheatfarmer Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    one last thing...if this is their only contact with DO's then they should get their ass out of the damned chair!

    Give me a friggin break! there are no credentials requirement on this site...so everyone could quite honestly be fake.

    The internet should NEVER be your primary source of information. I don't what your excuse is.
     
  45. DJ

    DJ Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 1999
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    >>The purpose of my writing has been to educate the Young Jocks of the world. He/she came on board and asked a question regarding osteopathy.

    I believe Royce is merely using this excuse in order to bash the D.O. profession. I suggest all premeds who read the discussion boards on this site, and any other sites, to do their OWN research before applying to either D.O. or M.D. schools. Don't let one person's or a group's opinion sway your decision one way or the other. Be comfortable with your decision and stick with it! How much learning you get out of med school is proportional to how much you put into it.

    >>A bunch of DOs came dashing over the proclaim the field completely free of any residual public doubts and I pointed out that was simply not true. I then went on to note that many allopathic programs are not as enthusiastic towards DOs as they are MDs. Neither of my assertions are untrue, yet I was branded a liar, in posession of a shizoid personality, an ego maniac, etc.

    Of course there will always be prejudice against the D.O. profession. But who are doing the discriminating? They may well be people who are oblivious to what osteopathic medicine is all about, or the ones who berate anyone for believing in the (osteopathic) philosophy that's different from their own. Residency Matching is a subjective thing. If we have every Directors of Residency in the allo program who share the same views that you possess, I would be surprised to see even 1 D.O. graduate in allo program. But the truth is, you are in the minority.

    Lastly, I really want to delve into why you have such an insecurity with your own self being. But there may be too many factors and may take eons to figure out.

    Why did you even decide to get into the medical profession in the first place? For Prestige? For $$$$$$$$$ ?

    [This message has been edited by DJ (edited 06-30-2000).]
     
  46. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    ewag..yes, you are correct, in response to some personal attacks by you, I did respond.
    but i simply disagree that this forum is for entertainment only...this forum is for information first and for entertainment a far distant second.

    the fact that a couple of teenagers are allowed to treat it as a prepubescent chat chamber doesnt offend me, if you and your alter ego wheatfreedom want to continue acting like children by all means go ahead, when you make credible points i will agree, when you make ridiculous ones i will disagree and when you act like an immature child slinging mud, i will ignore you.


    If YOU choose to simply post idiotic namecalling memos, that does not mean that the rest of us have to even engage you in your childishness...after all, when ADULTS want entertainment, we dont have to act like schoolchildren on the internet...

     
  47. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    2
    and what's with all the "calm down" stuff....
    geez, you'd think i was writing some REALLY long posts about Nova or something...lol...hey, that's not a bad idea....
     
  48. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 1998
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Too tired to respond.
    Not the wheatfarmer.
    Time to do other things.
    Got life, wish to live it while I can.
    Tired of nonsense.
    Must sleep.
     

Share This Page