MD cGPA: 3.75, sGPA: 3.80, 35 MCAT - Chances for top schools?

[CADdoc]

Hey SDN, would love for some feedback and potential next steps.

Currently a senior at large public institution as a part of a 4 year undergrad program and applying this June.
cGPA: 3.75
sGPA: 3.80

MCAT:
1st attempt: 26 (9/8/9)
2nd attempt: 35 (12/9/14)

ECs:
Volunteering

• Hospital patient visiting (medicine, post-op and peds wards): 4 years (ongoing) ~ 650 hours
• Academic coaching (helping students failing or close to failing with study skills - time management, motivation etc.); organized through my university: 2 year ~ 300 hours
• Rural health center abroad: went to people's homes and distributed chlorine water purification tablets, took bp, taught basic sanitation and health advice along with doctors to villagers etc.: 2 weeks ~ 80 hours
  
• Summer camp leader ~ 30 hours
  
• Teaching science to elementary school kids ~30 hours

Employment: Employed by my university to teach 1st year phys as a tutor (and supervise 7 other tutors) -- 2.5 years ~200 hours

Research:
Clinical research project 1 (self developed and funded by a studentship):

• Manuscript under peer review as 1st author (IF > 7)
• Posters at 1 international conference (1st author abstract published) and 2 local conferences
• 1 local conference oral presentation

Clinical research project 2 (self developed and funded by a studentship):

• Manuscript under peer review as 1st author (IF >14)
• Posters at 2 local conferences
• Accepted for oral presentation at 1 international conference (1st author abstract published)
• 2 local oral presentations

Shadowing:

• At local peds hospital ~30 hours
• Med internship abroad (urban hospital): shadowed doctors and saw some surgeries: 1 month

Awards:

• 2 research studentships
• Deans list each year of undergrad
• Dean of science scholarship

Recreational sports/hobbies:

• Running: trained for and ran a half-marathon; training for a full marathon next year
• Regular drop-in badminton 2-4 times a week for the last 4 years (2 hours per drop-in)

Questions:
What are my chances for a top 10 school?

Perhaps my biggest question is that neither of my papers have been accepted yet since we only submitted them recently - would it be worth waiting for an acceptance and submitting my primary after June 7th this year (maybe I'm wrong but, they do feel like they make or break my chances)? If so, how much time would be "worth" waiting?

Would also love any other feedback or comments, thanks.

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[medstudentapp]

Don't wait. Since these are not basic research articles, they will not be looked on as favorably; waiting will only lessen your chances.

 

[CADdoc]

Don't wait. Since these are not basic research articles, they will not be looked on as favorably; waiting will only lessen your chances.

Wait, what do you mean they will not be looked on as favorably??? How will clinical research articles negatively impact me?
One is a retrospective cohort study and the other is a meta-analysis... Excuse my skepticism, but if they do indeed hurt my chances, I would flat out leave them out of my app...

 

[lavacake]

I don't think he or she is saying that the research articles will negatively impact you. "... looked on AS favorably", that "as" is really important in understanding that the comment meant that an early submission of your primaries would do you more good/look more favorable than getting the publications.

Don't wait. Submit as soon as you can crank out a great application, and when the publications come out, you can send updated letters. Granted, a June submission is still considered an early application I think..

There was a timeline topic somewhere for AMCAS, but it seemed like having your primary in by end of June, and being done with all secondaries by September was the normal/early-ish pace of things. So if it seems like you'll be published by end of June and you have EVERYTHING else ready, then I suppose waiting wouldn't hurt you that much or at all. But the publishing timeline is unpredictable, right? I mean your submission could get rejected, there might be a lengthy review process, etc.

As for top 10 chances, I think you have a very solid application overall. But nothing really screams "I'm exceptional in an exceptional pool of applicants".

 

[ChrisMack390]

Wait, what do you mean they will not be looked on as favorably??? How will clinical research articles negatively impact me?
One is a retrospective cohort study and the other is a meta-analysis... Excuse my skepticism, but if they do indeed hurt my chances, I would flat out leave them out of my app...

LOL ignore that comment. There is nothing wrong with clinical research. In fact it is more like the kind of research you'd be more likely do as an actual doctor.

 

[CADdoc]

I don't think he or she is saying that the research articles will negatively impact you. "... looked on AS favorably", that "as" is really important in understanding that the comment meant that an early submission of your primaries would do you more good/look more favorable than getting the publications.

Don't wait. Submit as soon as you can crank out a great application, and when the publications come out, you can send updated letters. Granted, a June submission is still considered an early application I think..

There was a timeline topic somewhere for AMCAS, but it seemed like having your primary in by end of June, and being done with all secondaries by September was the normal/early-ish pace of things. So if it seems like you'll be published by end of June and you have EVERYTHING else ready, then I suppose waiting wouldn't hurt you that much or at all. But the publishing timeline is unpredictable, right? I mean your submission could get rejected, there might be a lengthy review process, etc.

As for top 10 chances, I think you have a very solid application overall. But nothing really screams "I'm exceptional in an exceptional pool of applicants".

Thanks for the clarification, their wording had me interpreting it as clinical science papers having less impact on admissions (it any at all) compared to basic science papers.

Also, thank you for the feedback and comments, I appreciate it. I'll look into how much a primary can be delayed before it starts becoming detrimental. At this point I suppose I'd be willing to wait an extra 2-3 weeks before submitting depending on when I hear back from the journals. You are definitely right with regards to the unpredictability of the publishing timeline though.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Your stats are below average for basically all top schools, particularly with the MCAT retake, and your ECs, while strong, are not singularly impressive enough to compensate.

You are competitive enough to warrant an application, but you should make sure you have a broad mid-tier base as the foundation of your app.

 

[CADdoc]

Your stats are below average for basically all top schools, particularly with the MCAT retake, and your ECs, while strong, are not singularly impressive enough to compensate.

You are competitive enough to warrant an application, but you should make sure you have a broad mid-tier base as the foundation of your app.

Appreciate the feedback. Yes these are certainly reach schools for me, I'm planning on using using in-state schools and other mid-tiers as my main force.

Hypothetical question, do you think a third MCAT score of 520+ would help make my 1st write an outlier and make a difference in my app?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Appreciate the feedback. Yes these are certainly reach schools for me, I'm planning on using using in-state schools and other mid-tiers as my main force.

Hypothetical question, do you think a third MCAT score of 520+ would help make my 1st write an outlier and make a difference in my app?

No, it would likely just suggest to adcoms that you're overly fixated on a specific numerical aspect of your application.

 

[CADdoc]

No, it would likely just suggest to adcoms that you're overly fixated on a specific numerical aspect of your application.

I didn't mention this in my initial post, but my local in-state school requires the new MCAT from 2015 onwards. Because of this, unfortunately, I have no choice but to re-write and am planning to do so this June. Is there anyway I could convey this to other schools that might perceive my re-write as you mentioned?

 

[WedgeDawg]

I didn't mention this in my initial post, but my local in-state school requires the new MCAT from 2015 onwards. Because of this, unfortunately, I have no choice but to re-write and am planning to do so this June. Is there anyway I could convey this to other schools that might perceive my re-write as you mentioned?

Hmmm, I'm not sure if schools can even see expired scores. I would wait for one of our adcoms to come and weigh in on that, as I would only be speculating.

 

[GrapesofRath]

All scores are always visible.

To be honest, it's just an unfortunate spot to be in. This got brought up a while back but as gyngyn told it nobody is going to look through MCAT specific requirements of schools and see "Oh he had to take the MCAT again since his state school wouldnt accept it, that's why he's retaking the 35". Instead they are more likely to run to the conclusions that arent positive of retaking a 35 and taking again for the third time. YMMV but considering there are only 5-10 schools that wont accept an old MCAT for this cycle I doubt there will be many specifically looking for this and factoring it in. IT's just bad luck.

What state are you in? If it's one that has a low IS matriculation% and is not a very lucky one it might just be worth forgetting about the state school and applying broadly OOS. You really arent hurting your odds that much if you live in a state like MD or WA if you ditch your state school.

The 26 in particular though will cause problems for these top 20 reach schools you are talking about. For those evaluators that follow AAMC recommendations and average multiple scores, you're looking at a 30-31 not a 35. Even for those that dont average officially, it's hard to look at top 20's as anything more than just reaches here.

 

[ChrisMack390]

All scores are always visible.

To be honest, it's just an unfortunate spot to be in. This got brought up a while back but as gyngyn told it nobody is going to look through MCAT specific requirements of schools and see "Oh he had to take the MCAT again since his state school wouldnt accept it, that's why he's retaking the 35". Instead they are more likely to run to the conclusions that arent positive of retaking a 35 and taking again for the third time. YMMV but considering there are only 5-10 schools that wont accept an old MCAT for this cycle I doubt there will be many specifically looking for this and factoring it in. IT's just bad luck.

Wouldn't this be a perfectly reasonable thing to note in the "anything else you wanna tell us" part of the secondaries?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Wouldn't this be a perfectly reasonable thing to note in the "anything else you wanna tell us" part of the secondaries?

Maybe. I'd run something like this by a few MD ADCOMs/other people who have a history of being involved in MD admission etc before doing something like this though. And therell probably still be some people for whom the stigmas attached to retaking that 35 wont go away. But yeah this is definitely at least an idea worth throwing out there.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Maybe. I'd run something like this by a few MD ADCOMs/other people who have a history of being involved in MD admission etc before doing something like this though. And therell probably still be some people for whom the stigmas attached to retaking that 35 wont go away. But yeah this is definitely at least an idea worth throwing out there.

So, pragmatically, what would you actually suggest? OP forgoing his state schools and only applying to schools that will take his old MCAT?

 

[GrapesofRath]

So, pragmatically, what would you actually suggest? OP forgoing his state schools and only applying to schools that will take his old MCAT?

It depends on what state. Keep in mind the possibility of retaking a 35 and doing worse as well as the time itll take to study for the new MCAT.

For a case like this with two MCAT scores about 10 pts apart it's just tricky to say things definitively

 

[Goro]

We most surely can see expired scores.

I suggest OP get in more off-campus, non-clinical volunteering.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if schools can even see expired scores. I would wait for one of our adcoms to come and weigh in on that, as I would only be speculating.

Suggested school list:
U Toledo
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush (note: very service/experience oriented with a 150hr service requirement. Avg student has 800 hours of community service, and >1800 hours of health care exposure.)
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
USF Morsani
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
JHU
Pitt
Northwestern
NYU
Columbia
Any new MD school, especially Hofstra. Skip Central MI and the three new FL schools. I can't recommend CNU.
Your state school(s)

 

[MaxPlancker]

Yep unfortunately I'm thinking theres not really any glimmer of chance for a top 10-20. ECs are average (below-average for top schools) and the stats are below the medians of top schools. But you don't have to go to a top school, don't be overly focused on that. You want that MD.

 

[medstudentapp]

Wait, what do you mean they will not be looked on as favorably??? How will clinical research articles negatively impact me?
One is a retrospective cohort study and the other is a meta-analysis... Excuse my skepticism, but if they do indeed hurt my chances, I would flat out leave them out of my app...

They won't hurt, but admission won't look at these and be super impressed. Any pub is better than no pub. Most physicians don't do any research. Most that do will do heavy clinical/case study research. And then the select few will do basic research, where their articles will get cited and importantly influence the field. When you say you want to go to a top 10 school, these are the students that they want: people who will change the field through basic research. These will be the people interviewing you. Strong research for them=strong basic research. Additionally, you can crank out a meta-analysis/case study in 1 week. This is not the case for basic research in medicine.

 

[medstudentapp]

LOL ignore that comment. There is nothing wrong with clinical research. In fact it is more like the kind of research you'd be more likely do as an actual doctor.

LOL but for a top 10 school like Harvard, not much cohort and meta-analysis happening there...lets be honest, their faculty will only be impressed by outstanding basic research

 

[MaxPlancker]

I think it would be very adcom-specific on how they perceive the value of clinical vs basic productivity. While it's accepted that basic requires more time and is generally tougher to publish, that does not take away merit from clinical research. As an example, I think a first author clinical would still beat out non-1st author basics. When it comes down to the same authorship level, then I'd imagine most adcoms would realise that it's faster to publish clinical articles thus the disparity in the number of articles. Bottom line, you want to ideally demonstrate productivity through any means possible. It's not like doing one is "better" than the other; do what you like.

 

[ChrisMack390]

LOL but for a top 10 school like Harvard, not much cohort and meta-analysis happening there...lets be honest, their faculty will only be impressed by outstanding basic research

You don't think Harvard does clinical research? Are you naive or just contrarian?

 

[jaxon]

You don't think Harvard does clinical research? Are you naive or just contrarian?

Yeah, they only have 3 of the top hospitals in the world at their disposal. Why the hell would they waste their time leaving the bench?

 

[ChrisMack390]

Yeah, they only have 3 of the top hospitals in the world at their disposal. Why the hell would they waste their time leaving the bench?

LOL. My last post may have come off as rude, but I literally wrote it from inside of Dana-Farber.

 

[jaxon]

LOL. My last post may have come off as rude, but I literally wrote it from inside of Dana-Farber.

I wasn't even thinking of DF or Joslin. Those too lolol

 

[medstudentapp]

You don't think Harvard does clinical research? Are you naive or just contrarian?

clinical research is NOT meta analysis, and case studies...its clinical trials which is dependent on basic research being translates to the clinic

 

[medstudentapp]

Yeah, they only have 3 of the top hospitals in the world at their disposal. Why the hell would they waste their time leaving the bench?

Their hospitals don't belong to Harvard...its not Harvard Hospital...Its MASS Gen....

 

[medstudentapp]

LOL. My last post may have come off as rude, but I literally wrote it from inside of Dana-Farber.

Sure if you're applying to Mass Gen for medical school then go do meta analysis lol but you're applying to HMS, so go do basic/translational research at the bench.

 

[ChrisMack390]

....

You literally don't know what you are talking about. Please stop posting this stuff.

 

[jaxon]

Sure if you're applying to Mass Gen for medical school then go do meta analysis lol but you're applying to HMS, so go do basic/translational research at the bench.

Except it's Harvard faculty members who work at these hospitals. Employees at BI and the Brigham etc have @hms.edu as their emails. I don't know what you're saying. I can't remember if MGH is @partners or @HMS, but either way it's still populated by harvard faculty who do research with med students

 

[medstudentapp]

....

You literally don't know what you are talking about. Please stop posting this stuff.

Im going to Stanford next year. You're arguing that a meta analyze and a primary research article looks the same in front of admissions eyes. Ok.

 

[jaxon]

Im going to Stanford next year. You're arguing that a meta analyze and a primary research article looks the same in front of admissions eyes. Ok.

Shame. I would think a future Stanford alum would have some reading comprehension skills. We are saying Harvard does clinical research. You just made this up.

"LOL but for a top 10 school like Harvard, not much cohort and meta-analysis happening there...lets be honest, their faculty will only be impressed by outstanding basic research." was followed by, "You don't think Harvard does clinical research? Are you naive or just contrarian?" -Mack

 

[medstudentapp]

Except it's Harvard faculty members who work at these hospitals. Employees at BI and the Brigham etc have @hms.edu as their emails. I don't know what you're saying. I can't remember if MGH is @partners or @HMS, but either way it's still populated by harvard faculty who do research with med students

You think Harvard hires faculty so that they can do case studies and meta analysis? LOL its the top research school, 90+% of them do heavy basic research. The physicians who do case studies are those who practice full time and don't teach. Also clinical trials are run primarily by academic physicians. Either research type is OK depending on how you see yourself practicing medicine. We are talking about HMS, please realize how ridiculous it is to think that their admissions will see a meta-analysis and a primary research article in the same way.

 

[jaxon]

You think Harvard hires faculty so that they can do case studies and meta analysis? LOL its the top research school, 90+% of them do heavy basic research. The physicians who do case studies are those who practice full time and don't teach. Also clinical trials are run primarily by academic physicians. Either research type is OK depending on how you see yourself practicing medicine. We are talking about HMS, please realize how ridiculous it is to think that their admissions will see a meta-analysis and a primary research article in the same way.

You're just misrepresenting what we are saying and making up a strawman to knock down. We are saying they do clinical research. Period. The argument was made that clinical research is valuable as well, but I don't see any qualitative claim that it is better than basic benchwork. We literally said clinical research is fine. Then you said "Harvard doesn't do meta-analysis," then you later said "meta-analysis isn't even clinical research." I think you're chasing your tail here.

 

[medstudentapp]

Shame. I would think a future Stanford alum would have some reading comprehension skills. We are saying Harvard does clinical research. You just made this up.

"LOL but for a top 10 school like Harvard, not much cohort and meta-analysis happening there...lets be honest, their faculty will only be impressed by outstanding basic research." was followed by, "You don't think Harvard does clinical research? Are you naive or just contrarian?" -Mack

Do we not realize how difficult it is to receive admissions into these schools? You have to do something crazy, create significant change to get into HMS. Research can be a way to do this. However, the OP was asking about his chances. I was very honest telling him that his publication record is not strong at all. Please lets not lie to him and pretend he's publishing into Nature and Cell. He will need to stand out in other ways, his research isn't doing that for him.

 

[medstudentapp]

You're just misrepresenting what we are saying and making up a strawman to knock down. We are saying they do clinical research. Period. The argument was made that clinical research is valuable as well, but I don't see any qualitative claim that it is better than basic benchwork. We literally said clinical research is fine. Then you said "Harvard doesn't do meta-analysis," then you later said "meta-analysis isn't even clinical research." I think you're chasing your tail here.

Clinical research is very good. This applicant didn't clinical research. A meta-analysis is not clinical research.

 

[jaxon]

Do we not realize how difficult it is to receive admissions into these schools?

No I think we do. But it seems like the subject of conversation just changed, and we are now talking about two different things. So don't mind me. I was talking about Harvard, not OP.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

Hey SDN, would love for some feedback and potential next steps.

Currently a senior at large public institution as a part of a 4 year undergrad program and applying this June.
cGPA: 3.75
sGPA: 3.80

MCAT:
1st attempt: 26 (9/8/9)
2nd attempt: 35 (12/9/14)

ECs:
Volunteering

• Hospital patient visiting (medicine, post-op and peds wards): 4 years (ongoing) ~ 650 hours
• Academic coaching (helping students failing or close to failing with study skills - time management, motivation etc.); organized through my university: 2 year ~ 300 hours
• Rural health center abroad: went to people's homes and distributed chlorine water purification tablets, took bp, taught basic sanitation and health advice along with doctors to villagers etc.: 2 weeks ~ 80 hours
  
• Summer camp leader ~ 30 hours
  
• Teaching science to elementary school kids ~30 hours

Employment: Employed by my university to teach 1st year phys as a tutor (and supervise 7 other tutors) -- 2.5 years ~200 hours

Research:
Clinical research project 1 (self developed and funded by a studentship):

• Manuscript under peer review as 1st author (IF > 7)
• Posters at 1 international conference (1st author abstract published) and 2 local conferences
• 1 local conference oral presentation

Clinical research project 2 (self developed and funded by a studentship):

• Manuscript under peer review as 1st author (IF >14)
• Posters at 2 local conferences
• Accepted for oral presentation at 1 international conference (1st author abstract published)
• 2 local oral presentations

Shadowing:

• At local peds hospital ~30 hours
• Med internship abroad (urban hospital): shadowed doctors and saw some surgeries: 1 month

Awards:

• 2 research studentships
• Deans list each year of undergrad
• Dean of science scholarship

Recreational sports/hobbies:

• Running: trained for and ran a half-marathon; training for a full marathon next year
• Regular drop-in badminton 2-4 times a week for the last 4 years (2 hours per drop-in)

Questions:
What are my chances for a top 10 school?

Perhaps my biggest question is that neither of my papers have been accepted yet since we only submitted them recently - would it be worth waiting for an acceptance and submitting my primary after June 7th this year (maybe I'm wrong but, they do feel like they make or break my chances)? If so, how much time would be "worth" waiting?

Would also love any other feedback or comments, thanks.

What's your race?

I feel like your volunteering isn't really spectacular. Everything seems average, but maybe thatsome because I got used to reading everyone's WAMC thread.

We most surely can see expired scores.

I suggest OP get in more off-campus, non-clinical volunteering.




Suggested school list:
U Toledo
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush (note: very service/experience oriented with a 150hr service requirement. Avg student has 800 hours of community service, and >1800 hours of health care exposure.)
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
USF Morsani
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
JHU
Pitt
Northwestern
NYU
Columbia
Any new MD school, especially Hofstra. Skip Central MI and the three new FL schools. I can't recommend CNU.
Your state school(s)

I'm surprised you added so many top schools

 

[Goro]

Even as a 2x MCAT taker, OP's stats and ECs are stellar.

I'm surprised you added so many top schools

 

[7331poas]

Wait. Clinical publications count the same as basic research papers which take 3x longer? That's messed up.

 

[7331poas]

.

 

[medstudentapp]

Wait. Clinical publications count the same as basic research papers which take 3x longer? That's messed up.

100x longer* and no they don't, especially if applying to top research schools

 

[ChrisMack390]

Wait. Clinical publications count the same as basic research papers which take 3x longer? That's messed up.

IF you did research for 3x longer than someone else, then obviously that is 3x as much research. Don't be dense.

 

[7331poas]

IF you did research for 3x longer than someone else, then obviously that is 3x as much research. Don't be dense.

And you would have 1/3 rd the publications to show for it.

 

[ChrisMack390]

And you would have 1/3 rd the publications to show for it.

Most adcom/advisors on SDN say that publications in and of themselves don't matter as much as sustained commitment and the ability to coherently describe the research.

 

[medstudentapp]

Most adcom/advisors on SDN say that publications in and of themselves don't matter as much as sustained commitment and the ability to coherently describe the research.

Except this post is Harvard. They aren't interviewing you to clap for your efforts in the lab. They want results. Do bench research. Get published in top journals. Know your research.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Dude, you're making Stanford look bad...

 

[ChrisMack390]

Except this post is Harvard. They aren't interviewing you to clap for your efforts in the lab. They want results. Do bench research. Get published in top journals. Know your research.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you have never actually done any research.

 

[7331poas]

It's becoming increasingly clear that you have never actually done any research.

I've been told several times that first author papers are a great accomplishment here on this forum, esp when applying to the top.

 

[medstudentapp]

It's becoming increasingly clear that you have never actually done any research.

I'm published in Cell and Cancer Cell...