Red Beard

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From today's AOA daily report:
Challenges for OGME in Florida
Speaking of workforce needs and its implications, the growing number of medical schools and class size increases are creating difficulty in finding suitable third- and fourth-year rotations for osteopathic medical students. The University of Miami Miller School of Medicine recently wrote to the AOA regarding its policy on allowing visiting medical students to complete clinical rotations at its affiliated institution, the Jackson Memorial Hospital. The letter stated that only students from the Miller School of Medicine and from allopathic medical schools where its own students seek reciprocal positions will be eligible for clinical rotations. If spaces are left over after these considerations, only Nova Southeastern osteopathic medical students will be considered; no other DO students will be allowed to apply for these clinical rotations. The AOA will be calling upon AACOM to address this issues to assist osteopathic medical students from other schools who wish to train there.

I think there is the potential that this kind of thing could happen at other allopathic training centers, especially if we keep opening schools without hospital affiliations and increasing class sizes beyond the number of students we can realistically place in quality rotations and residencies through our own institutions.

Also, expecting allopathic institutions to continue to take our students without reciprocating the offer, I think, is a bad policy and I hope that the AOA will address this disparity. Attempting to maintain 'separateness' does nothing useful for osteopathic medicine or health care as a whole, and could possibly hurt us in the future.

Thoughts?
 
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Chocolate Bear

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From today's AOA daily report:


I think there is the potential that this kind of thing could happen at other allopathic training centers, especially if we keep opening schools without hospital affiliations and increasing class sizes beyond the number of students we can realistically place in quality rotations and residencies through our own institutions.

Also, expecting allopathic institutions to continue to take our students without reciprocating the offer, I think, is a bad policy and I hope that the AOA will address this disparity. Attempting to maintain 'separateness' does nothing useful for osteopathic medicine or health care as a whole, and could possibly hurt us in the future.

Thoughts?.

I can't blame em, either. And I agree, the problem can only get worse. It's not like the number of MD students is shrinking either. But I bet the number of rotation slots isn't going up at the same rate, if at all...
 

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Nearly every DO school I've visited or researched charges Godawful tuition, only accepts free rotation slots (or very few paid ones), and opens up a new dental/nursing/whatever school on campus every few years.

Hmmm....maybe if it wasn't all about how much profit they could pack in per student, pre-DOs wouldn't have to cry themselves to sleep worrying about the clinical education they will be receiving in a few years, since this tends to be the most heavily guarded secret at most of the schools. Either that or they sing the glorious benefits of having a preceptor-based clinical education. Please.
 
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Red Beard

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Nearly every DO school I've visited or researched charges Godawful tuition, only accepts free rotation slots (or very few paid ones), and opens up a new dental/nursing/whatever school on campus every few years.

Hmmm....maybe if it wasn't all about how much profit they could pack in per student, pre-DOs wouldn't have to cry themselves to sleep worrying about the clinical education they will be receiving in a few years, since this tends to be the most heavily guarded secret at most of the schools. Either that or they sing the glorious benefits of having a preceptor-based clinical education. Please.

Basically agree with you, although the bolded statement is based on a false assumption. The only 'for profit' Osteopathic school is RVU. The reason for high tuitions at osteopathic schools in general is that they are private institutions, typically draw very little in the way of research funding, and as you state they tend to try to increase their variety of health science programs relatively rapidly, requiring a lot of dollars to reinvest. The idea that there are a bunch of people getting rich of training osteopathic students has no basis.

Before this gets any further, can we please keep the tone civil in this thread?
 

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Basically agree with you, although the bolded statement is based on a false assumption. The only 'for profit' Osteopathic school is RVU. The reason for high tuitions at osteopathic schools in general is that they are private institutions, typically draw very little in the way of research funding, and as you state they tend to try to increase their variety of health science programs relatively rapidly, requiring a lot of dollars to reinvest. The idea that there are a bunch of people getting rich of training osteopathic students has no basis.

Before this gets any further, can we please keep the tone civil in this thread?

I've heard some pretty astounding numbers for the salaries of some high-ups at certain "non-profit" schools.

I don't think that tax status is the end-all for judging the ethicality of a school's motives. If nobody benefited from the proliferation of programs and campuses, then why wouldn't all of the tuition money from a program go into paying for new opportunities/facilities within that program?

If I pay $42K/year, with a 5% inflation rate per year, why should three new programs, all requiring new facilities and faculty, open up before I leave, rather than my program seeing the addition of better, paid rotations? Or a new cadaver lab? Or more bodies so there aren't 10 of us at once, splitting up dissections to an A,B,C group system, as well?

I'm being civil.
 

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I don't think Jackson Memorial was particularly friendly to DO students to begin with for many specialities. It is also kind of odd considering UM is slowly reducing the amount of students rotating there since they have another hospital. FIU is going to have students rotate there.

It seems crappy but I kind of understand it. It is a situation where you need to scratch their back too.
 

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From today's AOA daily report:

...The letter stated that only students from the Miller School of Medicine and from allopathic medical schools where its own students seek reciprocal positions will be eligible for clinical rotations.

Thoughts?

I think that is only fair. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

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I've heard some pretty astounding numbers for the salaries of some high-ups at certain "non-profit" schools.

I don't think that tax status is the end-all for judging the ethicality of a school's motives. If nobody benefited from the proliferation of programs and campuses, then why wouldn't all of the tuition money from a program go into paying for new opportunities/facilities within that program?

If I pay $42K/year, with a 5% inflation rate per year, why should three new programs, all requiring new facilities and faculty, open up before I leave, rather than my program seeing the addition of better, paid rotations? Or a new cadaver lab? Or more bodies so there aren't 10 of us at once, splitting up dissections to an A,B,C group system, as well?

I'm being civil.

Pay for higher-ups....I am sure that deans and provosts are paid highly, I suspect this is also the case at state schools and private allopathic medical schools. To say this is the main reason for the high tuition or the weakness of 3rd/4th year rotations at some schools is a statement I am less sure about.

I completely agree with your second paragraph. In fact, it makes me wonder if you and I are at the same school! :laugh:
 

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Nearly every DO school I've visited or researched charges Godawful tuition, only accepts free rotation slots (or very few paid ones), and opens up a new dental/nursing/whatever school on campus every few years.

Hmmm....maybe if it wasn't all about how much profit they could pack in per student, pre-DOs wouldn't have to cry themselves to sleep worrying about the clinical education they will be receiving in a few years, since this tends to be the most heavily guarded secret at most of the schools. Either that or they sing the glorious benefits of having a preceptor-based clinical education. Please.

Here's the real issue..i don't agree on the tuition accusation, if you actually visit some MD schools you will realize why they charge nothing because their facilities reflect the tuition. Most DO schools are new and also have higher maintenance costs, keep in mind DO schools don't get money from the state, or any other big source..all factors influencing your tuition. However, i think your education at a DO school during pre-clinical years is pretty darn good and comparable to a lot of MD schools but i do understand the post-clinical year problems. This is simply a matter of lack of resources, funding and being dominated by the ACGME. We don't have enough hospitals, research facilities, and the kind of infrastructure to expand our base. Also there is this culture of "living in the past", as a collective group i think DO's are pretty divided on almost any issue. Its a shame to not show off the first class education we all acquired..i really think it undermines our abilities in the clinical world and gives ignorant programs a lot of false notions about a school or its students.
 

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The reason for high tuitions at osteopathic schools in general is that they are private institutions, typically draw very little in the way of research funding, and as you state they tend to try to increase their variety of health science programs relatively rapidly, requiring a lot of dollars to reinvest. The idea that there are a bunch of people getting rich of training osteopathic students has no basis.

Before this gets any further, can we please keep the tone civil in this thread?

1) research money does not play a role in tuition.

2) A student should not have to bear the burden of a school's ambitions

Here's the real issue..i don't agree on the tuition accusation, if you actually visit some MD schools you will realize why they charge nothing because their facilities reflect the tuition. Most DO schools are new and also have higher maintenance costs, keep in mind DO schools don't get money from the state, or any other big source..all factors influencing your tuition.

..i really think it undermines our abilities in the clinical world and gives ignorant programs a lot of false notions about a school or its students.

Higher maintenance costs?

I have said it before- the facilities you should be worried about are the clinical ones. Pre-clinically all you really need is an auditorium with a projector and a place for bodies.
 

Red Beard

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1) research money does not play a role in tuition.

That is not true, federal funds for research are given to public medical schools and constitute a significant portion of their revenue. Assuming no profit motive, the more research going on, and the bigger the hospital they are running, the less they must rely on tuition to cover their operating budget. Here is a good breakdown of medical school funding from AMSA, and an explanation for the higher average tuitions at osteopathic schools:

Tuition-FAQ_clip_image006.gif


Allopathic medical schools generally derive a very small percentage (10% or less) of their total revenue from tuition. However, osteopathic medical schools depend more on tuition (15% to almost 50% of their revenue). This is because osteopathic medical schools generally do not receive as much grant money (research funding), government funding, or hospital revenue as allopathic institutions.

Link http://www.amsa.org/student/tuition_FAQ.cfm

Your other points I agree with, and it can be very frustrating, although I tend not to see a vast conspiracy. I am not sure how other schools are set up, but we have a health science university under which our college of osteopathic medicine operates. Revenue from the medical school is taken to cover expansion and startup costs for other programs. Absolutely, I would rather it be reinvested in the COM. That being said, I was able to do well on the boards and don't feel that I have any significant deficiencies in my knowledge or clinical training to date compared to medical students from other schools.
 
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andexterouss

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That is not true, federal funds for research are given to public medical schools and constitute a significant portion of their revenue. Assuming no profit motive, the more research going on, and the bigger the hospital they are running, the less they must rely on tuition to cover their operating budget. Here is a good breakdown of medical school funding from AMSA, and an explanation for the higher average tuitions at osteopathic schools:

Tuition-FAQ_clip_image006.gif




Link http://www.amsa.org/student/tuition_FAQ.cfm

Your other points I agree with, and it can be very frustrating, although I tend not to see a vast conspiracy. I am not sure how other schools are set up, but we have a health science university under which our college of osteopathic medicine operates. Revenue from the medical school is taken to cover expansion and startup costs for other programs. Absolutely, I would rather it be reinvested in the COM. That being said, I was able to do well on the boards and don't feel that I have any significant deficiencies in my knowledge or clinical training to date compared to medical students from other schools.


Interesting analysis. In 3 years, the tuition at NYCOM will be 50/52k per year. Amazing. Tuition was the number one reason I put down my deposit for Touro-NY which cost 32k.

My reasoning is that DO schools are never going to have to worry about filling up their class. However, schools with high tuition will probably starting recruiting bottom-of-the-barrel applicants because competitive applicants may go somewhere else where they can get the best bang for their money.
 
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