Cheating on record = ??

[Dr. Giggles]

The best thing this guy can do IMO is dedicate a few years to raising awareness among high school and college students about the wrongness and stupidity of academic dishonesty. That's about the only way I can think of that an adcom will take his contrition as sincere. Then he might have a snowball's chance at a US allopathic.

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[thesauce]

I don't think a person like this deserves to be in medical school. I certainly wouldn't want him as my physician.

I can practically gaurantee that YOUR physician has done things that are this bad or worse. We are all human.

I can't understand why anyone can completely disagree with pcarlson05. The fact is: people make mistakes, learn from them, and grow from the lessons learned. Besides this being among the premises of the bible, giving individuals a second chance was among the messages of Dr. MLK.

 

[thesauce]

I think the 34 MCAT proves he is worthy of a 3.7. What do you think

Not really, GPA and MCAT are completely different things and there is often a large disconnect between the two. That's why ADCOMS consider both when deciding who gets admitted.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

Nah, most jobs don't look at transcripts. I don't think he'll have any problem finding a good job......

But he will have a difficult time getting into any other school.

I agree......let's not confuse getting into med school with getting a job, even a really good job. A lot of jobs that require a bachlor's degree could care less if you have a 2.0 or a 4.0.....they just want to know that you got your degree accoring the the colleges standards.....

 

[Dr. Giggles]

I can practically gaurantee that YOUR physician has done things that are this bad or worse.

There are probably plenty of physicians who peeked off their class neighbor's exam or borrowed a sentence from another source at some point, but something this egregious? Are you kidding? How common is it to fabricate a whole assignment, blatantly lie about it to the teacher, and put your friend in jeopardy? That goes way past where the vast majority of cheaters would draw the line.

 

[zimmie256]

I agree......let's not confuse getting into med school with getting a job, even a really good job. A lot of jobs that require a bachlor's degree could care less if you have a 2.0 or a 4.0.....they just want to know that you got your degree accoring the the colleges standards.....

I'm not so sure about that... I've had 2 serious jobs since graduating from college. BOTH asked for a copy of my transcript, and one of them also requested my standardized test scores. A college degree isn't sufficient for all jobs it seems...

 

[thesauce]

There are probably plenty of physicians who peeked off their class neighbor's exam or borrowed a sentence from another source at some point, but something this bad? Are you kidding? How common is it to fabricate a whole assignment, blatantly lie about it to the teacher, and put your friend in jeopardy? That goes way past where the vast majority of cheaters would draw the line.

This is certainly an outrageous example of cheating in an academic setting, but there are other much more heinous crimes that medical students at my school and other schools have committed. These include dealing drugs, assault, DUIs, and child neglect (just a few that I am personally aware of).

Can they learn from these mistakes and go on to become excellent physicians? I absolutely believe so!

 

[runningmom]

The best thing this guy can do IMO is dedicate a few years to raising awareness among high school and college students about the wrongness and stupidity of academic dishonesty. That's about the only way I can think of that an adcom will take his contrition as sincere. Then he might have a snowball's chance at a US allopathic.

I have to say, this is the best advice I've seen yet. And probably the only way to get over the situation. Grab the bull by the horns, fess up in public and make the story how he learned from his mistake - not that he was unlucky to get caught or it wasn't that bad or everyone else does it or blah blah blah.....

 

[thesauce]

It truly is great advice

 

[Andre04]

I can practically gaurantee that YOUR physician has done things that are this bad or worse. We are all human.

I can't understand why anyone can completely disagree with pcarlson05. The fact is: people make mistakes, learn from them, and grow from the lessons learned. Besides this being among the premises of the bible, giving individuals a second chance was among the messages of Dr. MLK.

I agree with giving people a second chance, but immediately after they did something so wrong? No way. A second chance comes much later, if at all.

The onus is on this fellow to prove that he has changed and learned from this, and that takes (1) time and (2) sincere repentance. One can't really "grow" in the two days since they've been caught cheating. IMO he's a cheater till he proves otherwise, and I'd probably feel better about a one-armed monkey taking a spot in med school anytime in the near future to his doing same.

I know people do much worse all the time. If we knew who they were, they should (IMO) get the same treatment.

 

[heeseop]

wow, that really sucks for your friend.
imagine how he must feel.

i hope the best for that guy.

 

[thesauce]

I agree with giving people a second chance, but immediately after they did something so wrong? No way. A second chance comes much later, if at all.

The onus is on this fellow to prove that he has changed and learned from this, and that takes (1) time and (2) sincere repentance. One can't really "grow" in the two days since they've been caught cheating. IMO he's a cheater till he proves otherwise, and I'd probably feel better about a one-armed monkey taking a spot in med school anytime in the near future to his doing same.

I know people do much worse all the time. If we knew who they were, they should (IMO) get the same treatment.

If I, personally, were on the admissions committee, I would certainly like to see a track record of changed behavior from this individual (like what Dr. Giggles suggested).

Still, it is not out of the question that you would get a sympathetic admissions committee member that would see this as a one-time fault and accept him anyway.

We have this one-armed monkey in my class who is doing excellent is his coursework and whom I believe will make a great doctor someday

Seriously though, I think we're on the same page regarding this situation.

 

[docolive]

b/c cheating is probably how he became a 3.7 34 student.
anyway it's usually the better students and grade-conscious students (aka gunners) that do cheat.

speaking of the gunner/cheaters in the world, those a**holes screwed the curve in some courses I took..like organic and genetics. They would openly cheat with no chance in hell of being caught. How it angers me; and the worst part is that if you report cheating to the dept, everyone gets punished with a lower grade....oh and organic lab....where only 1-2 A's were awarded per lab, kids cheated their asses off....thanks to that goodness, my A- was curved down to a B+. Hence, what happened to the guy is unfortunate but maybe he was doing this a lot more than he will ever confess.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

I love how most people on here are chastising the sh1t out of this guy and passing judgments on his future as a medical doctor...

do any of you know him personally? do you know what circumstances led him to commit such an (undoubtedly stupid) act?

I think threads like this make everyone feel better about themselves cuz they can think "Oh man, that sucks. Boy, am i glad im not in HIS position". Not only that though, you guys also go ahead and rub it in this guy's face all the while thinking "I am much better than him cuz I never cheated or did anything wrong. I am the picture of a perfect premed". Come on, give me a fcukin break with all this self-righteous bs.

Like it was mentioned earlier, people do sh1t that is much much worse and still get into med schools. It isn't the end of the world cuz he cheated on a quiz and NO it doesn't mean that he is gonna fudge data on patient's charts all because 12 years ago he cheated on a genetics quiz and from then on he just HAD to cheat more. Geez. Some of you guys that make all these crazy connections...get a life.

Seriously.

PS: I am not the guy who the op was talking about nor do I know this person in real life. I just know what it is like to do stupid sh1t when you are 18 years old, in college, and not too capable of looking very far into the future. YES, believe it or not, not every person makes every decision in college depending on whether or not it will help his/her chances to get into med school.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I'm not so sure about that... I've had 2 serious jobs since graduating from college. BOTH asked for a copy of my transcript, and one of them also requested my standardized test scores. A college degree isn't sufficient for all jobs it seems...

What kind of jobs?

I used to be a hiring manager at my [engineering] company, and during our interviews, we would all ask technical questions of the interviewees. I didn't have the time to look over someone's transcript. I didn't care if he had a 4.0. if he couldn't answer my questions, he wouldn't be hired. This is typical of companies in my industry (I know because I have interviewed at a lot of places, myself.)

I had one company call up the registrar of my college to confirm enrollment and the degrees that I claimed that I had, but that was all.

Also, what standardized test scores? GRE? SAT? Hahahahahaha

 

[Sekiray]

I think some of the people here might be overestimating the impact that this incident might have. Indeed, I think the applicant has a tough road ahead, but I don't think med school is out of the question. What you have to realize is that many people posting here are those who are right now applying, not those who have already gone through the process and are in med school. I happen to know people with red flags on their record (including cheaters, and even a felon, though she was 13 when convicted...) who are now in med school. Med school admissions members are tough, but they are usually also quite understanding and forgiving. I think that when used correctly, these characteristics are what make many of them such outstanding doctors. So your friend should do everything in his power to correct his mistake. In my mind, nothing he has done is irreversible for the sake of his future (though others will disagree). The only way your friend can be sure that he doesn't get into med school is if he doesn't try...but he will need to try very hard. In short, don't let him give up, and help him as much as you can.

I agree. Lots of ppl who are saying that your "friend" (or perhaps you) are screwed. But I think lots of people are just bitter that people cheat and get higher scores than them. Yea, the chances are lower, but he can still get in.
Look at our president, he had a DUI or whatever and now he runs the most powerful nation in the world. And who ever says caribbean, thats pretty absurd. So cheaters/felons/low score/desperate ppl all go to Caribbean? I don't think so. I know a bunch of caribbean ppl who scored 98% or up on their boards and got their dream residency programs. Gimme a break.

 

[Rafa]

The best thing this guy can do IMO is dedicate a few years to raising awareness among high school and college students about the wrongness and stupidity of academic dishonesty. That's about the only way I can think of that an adcom will take his contrition as sincere. Then he might have a snowball's chance at a US allopathic.

Best advice of the thread so far.

 

[Duchess742]

Not to get too off the topic of this thread, but I was talking to my (non-cheating) friend the other day, and we decided that grading curves probably have a lot to do with behavior like this. It seems like curves induce competition that wouldn't otherwise be so strong, and that leads to things like cheating and trying to screw other people over (e.g. one of the other threads where this heinous chick told the prof that another guy in the class had had a test misgraded in his favor). Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing if any of you from schools that don't employ grading curves really witness much cheating or other similarly competitive things. The friend I was talking to graduated from a school that graded without curves, and she said people were much more cooperative (and most of their classes ended up with a normal grade distribution anyway!).

 

[kevster2001]

Not to get too off the topic of this thread, but I was talking to my (non-cheating) friend the other day, and we decided that grading curves probably have a lot to do with behavior like this. It seems like curves induce competition that wouldn't otherwise be so strong, and that leads to things like cheating and trying to screw other people over (e.g. one of the other threads where this heinous chick told the prof that another guy in the class had had a test misgraded in his favor). Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing if any of you from schools that don't employ grading curves really witness much cheating or other similarly competitive things. The friend I was talking to graduated from a school that graded without curves, and she said people were much more cooperative (and most of their classes ended up with a normal grade distribution anyway!).

what my friend did wouldn't have screwed anyone else over that much. I think what he did would have helped in just as much, maybe more, in a noncurved class

 

[Law2Doc]

Not to get too off the topic of this thread, but I was talking to my (non-cheating) friend the other day, and we decided that grading curves probably have a lot to do with behavior like this. It seems like curves induce competition that wouldn't otherwise be so strong, and that leads to things like cheating and trying to screw other people over (e.g. one of the other threads where this heinous chick told the prof that another guy in the class had had a test misgraded in his favor). Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing if any of you from schools that don't employ grading curves really witness much cheating or other similarly competitive things. The friend I was talking to graduated from a school that graded without curves, and she said people were much more cooperative (and most of their classes ended up with a normal grade distribution anyway!).

I'm not sure the level of competition would ever justify cheating -- the so called "society made me do it" defense never flies. Life is competitive - competition is good. Those who can hack it get through it without cheating. Those who can't, shouldn't progress on to more intense settings like med school. The goal is to syphon away those who aren't among the best and the brightest and send them to careers where they can still thrive -- medicine, a field where you literally have peoples lives in your hands, is probably not this. And adcoms need to be able to ferret out who can thrive under the pressure and who can't. Thus a non-grade inflated bell curve situation is actually optimal. In med schools most schools have P/F or other noncompetitive grading situations, and while they often lessen the level of competition, the grades are as a result largely ignored over these years by residency directors, who prefer to look at board scores and evaluations from the latter two years, which are not P/F.

 

[Gabby]

Not to get too off the topic of this thread, but I was talking to my (non-cheating) friend the other day, and we decided that grading curves probably have a lot to do with behavior like this. It seems like curves induce competition that wouldn't otherwise be so strong, and that leads to things like cheating and trying to screw other people over (e.g. one of the other threads where this heinous chick told the prof that another guy in the class had had a test misgraded in his favor). Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing if any of you from schools that don't employ grading curves really witness much cheating or other similarly competitive things. The friend I was talking to graduated from a school that graded without curves, and she said people were much more cooperative (and most of their classes ended up with a normal grade distribution anyway!).

I'm doing my post-bacc at a school that doesn't curve and during my A&P lab final last semester, a girl in my class tried to cheat off me. She wasn't even discreet about it. Two others in the lab were comparing answers as they walked from station to station. No one told the professor.

In my Gen Chem I lab, everyone but me and two others shared answers to a lab report. Unfortunately, they all got 35/50s because the answers were wrong, while the three of us who showed up too late to confer got much higher scores. I suspect the teacher knew what they did, but no one got in trouble. In my Gen Chem lecture class, a couple of people were seen cheating on our first exam. They were separated, but they continued to take the exam and the professor took off something like five points.

Honestly, grades are so subjective in my school, especially in labs. If you don't word something a certain way, you can get anywhere from 1 to 10 points taken off, even if you have the concept right. It was like that at my undergrad institution too.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

I'm not so sure about that... I've had 2 serious jobs since graduating from college. BOTH asked for a copy of my transcript, and one of them also requested my standardized test scores. A college degree isn't sufficient for all jobs it seems...

i didn't say all jobs, a said a lot of jobs

 

[DALAS4MD]

your friend has totally messed up his chances of getting into a US Med School. I would suggest begging his professor for a zero and pardon on that quiz, and if that doesn't work, either go to grad school, but even better, if i were in his position, i'd go to a carribean school or foreign school, and then come back to the US as a resident

 

[zimmie256]

i didn't say all jobs, a said a lot of jobs

Right of course.. I know you didn't mean your comment to be all-inclusive. The only reason I posted was that I think the cheater dude should be prepared for some hiring folks to ask for his transcript. And if they do, he's going to have to figure out how to explain it or back out from applying or something...

 

[Law2Doc]

your friend has totally messed up his chances of getting into a US Med School. I would suggest begging his professor for a zero and pardon on that quiz, and if that doesn't work, either go to grad school, but even better, if i were in his position, i'd go to a carribean school or foreign school, and then come back to the US as a resident

While the carribean may be a route to a US residency for those with low stats who can ultimately prove themselves with hard work in med school and high board scores, this route is not likely going to be as beneficial for someone with cheating on their record. I would guess that someone who didn't get into a US school due to cheating and went to the carribean will be looked on less favorably by residency directors as someone who went there due to low grades. Thus you could theoretically end up with a carribean MD and no residency slot. I still think letting a lot of time pass while accomplishing other things and only then applying to med school is a higher probability route. But I'm speculating -- and have never come across any physician who had to do either.

 

[JohnnyOU]

As others have said, adcoms will assume he cheated regularly since seldom does someone get caught the very first time they cheat.

Everyone has something in their past whether they were caught or not, if you don't have something in your past then you are probably 20 yrs old and lived with your parents your whole life.

Adcoms get thousands of apps each yr with stats as good and better than that guys. I would be VERY surprised if all US medical schools don't immediately reject him. Honestly in medicine is paramount.

The guy can still get into med school, but not until this incident is a couple of years old and then he needs to be honest about it. Adcoms are pretty good at detecting peoples' BS, so honesty will help this guy a lot I think.

Johnny

 

[Mateodaspy]

i know of somebody who got into a top 30 med school with academic dishonesty on his record

 

[Law2Doc]

i know of somebody who got into a top 30 med school with academic dishonesty on his record

First, the circumstances are everything. Was it years ago? Was it blatent cheating (as described by the OP)? Second, one anecdotal example doesn't disprove a rule; if one person with recorded cheating gets in and hundreds of others don't, it's still pretty safe to say it's application suicide.

 

[Duchess742]

I'm not sure the level of competition would ever justify cheating -- the so called "society made me do it" defense never flies. Life is competitive - competition is good.

haha, believe me i know. i have a very competitive nature, but i'm just not evil about it. it's a shame though that competition (apparently in uncurved as well as curved grading systems) sometimes brings out the worst in people.

i don't cheat. i'm scared to death of it b/c of things like this that can happen. but i don't know if that's the reason i don't cheat or if it's b/c i actually feel some moral obligation not to. i think it's more likely the case that i don't do it b/c i'm scared of what would happen, and i think that's probably the situation for almost everyone here (whether we'd like to admit it or not)...since that's what has been engrained in our minds ever since our early school years. that being said, i don't really feel that i'd be justified in criticizing your friend according to some high moral anti-cheating standards. i guess i think it was stupid he took the risk and executed it so poorly. it's very unfortunate for him that he got caught, but he knew the possible penalties when he decided to go through with it. although i think the punishment might be a bit disproportionate to the offense, i'm sure he understood that was a likely consequence if he got caught. many people's lives change for reasons that are out of their control. he was willing to risk his future for 30 points, he lost, and now his misfortune is the result of nothing but his own judgment. i don't really feel too sorry for him (maybe a little though, b/c it sounds like he worked hard prior to the incident).

 

[ethyl]

Any chance of something like that getting expunged? Maybe talk to the Dean and find some way to work it off?

 

[Law2Doc]

it's very unfortunate for him that he got caught, but he knew the possible penalties when he decided to go through with it. although i think the punishment might be a bit disproportionate to the offense, i'm sure he understood that was a likely consequence if he got caught. many people's lives change for reasons that are out of their control. he was willing to risk his future for 30 points, he lost, and now his misfortune is the result of nothing but his own judgment. i don't really feel too sorry for him (maybe a little though, b/c it sounds like he worked hard prior to the incident).

Also, as others in this thread have pointed out, it's not uncommon for the time that a cheater gets caught not to be his/her first act of cheating. I certainly am not losing any sleep over such a blatent offender who almost took someone else down with him.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

are you sure he didn't cheat in his other class?
it's just unfortunate that he got caught
that being said, HE HAS NO CHANCE AT ALL!

Yeah, my bet is that this kid's been cheating for years and finally got caught. Adcoms probably think the same, which is why any reference to cheating is a huge deal. Since this guy had the balls to cheat in such a huge and deliberate way, it seems highly unlikely that this is his first foray into the cheating world. Maybe I'm cold, but I'm lacking sympathy for this guy right now.