Chest Pain...come on, are you guys really working that dude up?

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Quimby2

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So, let's take an informal pole of practice style (especially for all you grads and moonlighters):

35 y/o male with no sig pmhx, no pmd, no family hx, c/o pleuritic CP x3days, constant, new onset, worse with palpation, stone cold normal EKG, etc. Now we all know this PROBABLY not AMI/UA; however, we also all know that it still COULD be UA/AMI.

So, the question is this: assuming your department cannot do a one set of CE's with a f/u ED stress test and rule out, what are people outside of academia really doing? Admit for r/o? One enzyme set (ouch...i know!)? Two CE sets? D/C with documentation of very low-probability? Arrange for out patient stress without doing enzymes?

I am sure there is some variation here on opinion and I think we all know what the text book says, the question is "what is the actual practice out there?"

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LoL! You're a dirty, dirty boy.
 
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I'd want to know if I had a more likely etiology of his pain. If so, I'd go with that and not get any enzymes.

If I didn't, I'd likely trust my gut. This is a description of a low risk patient and there really isn't a good answer. We can't be perfect. We either admit everything and waste resources that we'll likely need later in the night ("sorry, I can't take care of your sick patient because all our beds are full with your low risk r/u's") or we run the small risks of letting a very rare occurence slip past us.

My gut feeling is based on all sorts of intagibles, including availability for follow up, how well the patient understands my discharge instructions, etc.

Sorry, the bottom line is we just don't have a good answer for this situation.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Everything hinges on the history the patient gives you. If you really are convinced it's not cardiac you can send it home.

As a famous sleepy attending once used to lecture me: "Missed MI is the #1 lawsuit, if you miss it, just open your wallet up!"
 
I'm with Jeff on this one. I would have to have the guy in front of me. I take some of the longest histories on this specific brand of patient. Depends on if his story is any good at all and what kind of follow up he has.
 
I'll tell you what I do and I'll bet the other private practice guys do the same thing. With that history I go ahead and check a troponin. My feeling is you just might catch something you might otherwise miss, and I have on a patient almost exactly like that. Then if it and the rest of the work up is negative I D/C'em home with instructions to follow up with his PCP for further evaluation. I dictate in my note that with no risk factors, 36 hours of pain, and no EKG or enzyme changes I don't believe this is cardiac pain. I know what the academic world teaches, that if you believe his story enough to send one set you have to send two and do the rest. I'd rather justify that to a jury than try to fight what his lawyer would say if I didn't send it, "There was a simple blood test that could have quickly and easily detected his MI but I was so clueless, lazy, mean, or stupid, that I didn't even bother to order that one little test" If I believe it might be cardiac I keep him for the full work up but if he's the sort I would have discharged without any enzymes in residency I sometimes check that single troponin, especially with more than 8 hours of continuous pain. One of my most respected attendings in residency, a bit of a heretic and IM/EM trained, practiced exactly that way.
 
I'm 1 1/2 years out, practice in a community setting....try to take what I do with a grain of salt as I'm still wrestling with these types of questions every day!

You depict a low prob patient. I'm with everyone else...take a long and good history....obviously key. From there, I do exactly what ERMudPhud said. In addition, I might even send a d-dimer if there's any question of dyspnea.

Trust me, I understand completely that 1 set of enzymes doesn't constitute a rule out/proper risk stratification by any means. If my enzymes come back even at the cusp of abnormal (trop of 0.4 at my institution), they get admitted. Otherwise, I stress to the patient that they truly need to be risk stratified and to follow-up with either their PCP or cardiologist within 24 hrs. If feasible, I'll contact the PCP to help coordinate this.

Great question to poll everyone on. I'm curious to hear the answers on this one.
 
I HAD THIS PT.! We got a d-dimer, CXR, and EKG.. d-dimer came back 1.7 and cxr show r lower lobe atelectasis. Staff said to scan him for r/o PE, Dx: metastatic lung dz (from undiagnosed testicular cancer found after admission)
 
I HAD THIS PT.! We got a d-dimer, CXR, and EKG.. d-dimer came back 1.7 and cxr show r lower lobe atelectasis. Staff said to scan him for r/o PE, Dx: metastatic lung dz (from undiagnosed testicular cancer found after admission)

Well there you have it! All 35yos with Chest pain are testicular cancer until proven otherwise!
 
Sorry, the bottom line is we just don't have a good answer for this situation.

Take care,
Jeff




You sound like our new radiologist.





:p
 
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Well there you have it! All 35yos with Chest pain are testicular cancer until proven otherwise!

I hate people who practice anecdotal medicine. I have had a couple of attendings who would order crazy things, and when I would ask why they'd say: "I had a lady with chest pain who ended up having a calcaneus fracture.."

We should practice based on what is acceptable standard of care in the community, and what is based on evidence. Not anecdotes.
 
I hate people who practice anecdotal medicine.

Wait until you're not a resident anymore. I guarantee that your asthma management and headache management will change - even subtly, it WILL change.

Speaking dogmatically as a trainee is expected, but to say you "hate" someone for how they practice medicine is extreme and unprofessional.
 
Appolyon said:
Speaking dogmatically as a trainee is expected, but to say you "hate" someone for how they practice medicine is extreme and unprofessional.

Ouch! Pleae understand where 'Veers is coming from. I do agree it might be a little unprofessional; however, I think the little bit of "hate" surfacing up from that gentle heart of his is not so extreme. Remeber, he just left an institution where many of the attendings mostly practiced a legally paranoid, antequated, PURELY anecdotal type of medicine.

I once spoke to an attending at the old King/Drew (where 'Veers just left)who said, and may I add quite dogmatically, "I NEVER give morphine to children --once I had a child break out in a rash."

Now, I am sure this attending is a nice guy to go fishing with, but I am sure I would "hate" to have him treat my little one.

Now let's get back to my original topic which is in fact only seeking physicians anectdotal concerns and opinions. (Oh, the irony is thick here!) :laugh:[/QUOTE]
 
I'll tell you what I do and I'll bet the other private practice guys do the same thing. With that history I go ahead and check a troponin. My feeling is you just might catch something you might otherwise miss, and I have on a patient almost exactly like that. Then if it and the rest of the work up is negative I D/C'em home with instructions to follow up with his PCP for further evaluation. I dictate in my note that with no risk factors, 36 hours of pain, and no EKG or enzyme changes I don't believe this is cardiac pain. I know what the academic world teaches, that if you believe his story enough to send one set you have to send two and do the rest. I'd rather justify that to a jury than try to fight what his lawyer would say if I didn't send it, "There was a simple blood test that could have quickly and easily detected his MI but I was so clueless, lazy, mean, or stupid, that I didn't even bother to order that one little test" If I believe it might be cardiac I keep him for the full work up but if he's the sort I would have discharged without any enzymes in residency I sometimes check that single troponin, especially with more than 8 hours of continuous pain. One of my most respected attendings in residency, a bit of a heretic and IM/EM trained, practiced exactly that way.

Ah! Let the games begin! Sorry, gotta disagree (not often I do) with MudPhud here.

Legally, it is better to have to justify NOT ordering enzymes on a patient because you thought he was extremely low risk rather than justifying why you sent ONE set. The questioning will go something like this:

"So, you suspected MI enough to GET enzymes, but only one set. Doctor, can you identify ANY SINGLE SOURCE -- EVEN ONE! -- that shows enzymes to have any utility whatsoever when sampled one time?"

Then, witness after witness will be trucked to the stand by the prosecution who will ask the following close-ended question:

"Doctor, do you consider it the standard of care to rule out MI with one set of enzymes? Have you encountered any data -- EVER -- supporting this statement?"

Each well-meaning doctor will dutifully shake their head and say "No".

On the other hand, you can get some split (50/50? 60/40? 90/10? I don't know...) of physicians who would say their suspicion was low enough to skip the enzymes in the first place. Thus, you've satisfied what a 'reasonable' physician might do.

I know the argument when the patient has had the CP for so long. And I can't say that I don't agree with everything MudPHUD says in theory! It's just that what he and I think is the smart thing is legally hazardous.


Otherwise, I agree with what Jeff and others said -- overall, these types of patients deserve frequent repeat exams and a rather more-than-usual-for-the-ED exhaustive history prior to deciding dispo.

Do all that, though, and document your negative repeated exams, family history, etc. and without enzymes I believe you can send this guy home and be within the standard of care.
 
I have been obtaining a screening EKG and documenting negative "ischemic changes" to risk stratify; then, using this to justify not obtaining any enzymes. Though, I often wonder if the same arguement might be made: "Doctor, don't you know that a normal EKG does not r/o cardiac ischemia? It seems like you thought Mr. Blank's chest pain could be his heart, yet you did not pursue this further? Doctor, his pain was going on for two days, don't you think he desred at least one set, as this surely would have been positive by now if he had an AMI 48 hours ago?"

But I guess I could always fall back on "community standard" and hope for the best.

As of recently, I too do not use one enzyme stratification unless I am going to do a stress test in the ED (not too many hospitals have this capability).
 
I have been obtaining a screening EKG and documenting negative "ischemic changes" to risk stratify; then, using this to justify not obtaining any enzymes. Though, I often wonder if the same arguement might be made: "Doctor, don't you know that a normal EKG does not r/o cardiac ischemia? It seems like you thought Mr. Blank's chest pain could be his heart, yet you did not pursue this further? Doctor, his pain was going on for two days, don't you think he desred at least one set, as this surely would have been positive by now if he had an AMI 48 hours ago?"

But I guess I could always fall back on "community standard" and hope for the best.

As of recently, I too do not use one enzyme stratification unless I am going to do a stress test in the ED (not too many hospitals have this capability).


Although a negative EKG can't absolutely exclude MI, a negative EKG is consistent with "no ischemic changes". And many doctors would agree with you, thus you've met the standard of care.

One set of enzymes, however, cannot even exclude ischemia. One set of enzymes has not demonstrable utility in the eyes of the law.
 
Although a negative EKG can't absolutely exclude MI, a negative EKG is consistent with "no ischemic changes". And many doctors would agree with you, thus you've met the standard of care.

One set of enzymes, however, cannot even exclude ischemia. One set of enzymes has not demonstrable utility in the eyes of the law.

I agree with the enzymes. If I'm contemplating discharge, I won't send a "screening set". The lawyers would crucify you with this in court.

I've also heard the argument for an EKG not ruling out MI. The problem with this sort of thinking is that then you end up admitting every single person with chest pain. I've known a few attendings who will in fact admit everyone with chest pain, regardless of history, exam, age or risk factors. The attending mentioned by Quimby2 is one such person.
 
I agree with the enzymes. If I'm contemplating discharge, I won't send a "screening set". The lawyers would crucify you with this in court.

I was always taught this in residency but I haven't seen a court transcript where it happened. That's not to say they don't exist but I have seen transcripts where no enzymes were sent. Juries are fairly simple people and I think the take home message they will get is that there was an easily available blood test which wasn't done and therefore the patient died.

Look at it another way. Even with the aggressive rate that we admit patients for chest pain rule outs we still miss I think something like 1-4% of ACS. Those probably aren't patients that got admitted for two troponins and then stressed. They are the ones like this guy that you couldn't even imagine had ACS. They had tooth pain, or musculoskeletal shoulder pain, or an earache, or pleuritic chest pain for 3 days. I've seen all of those. So, the question is how much of that did we miss and could we catch some of them by saying to ourselves, "OK, I don't believe this is ACS but before he goes I'm going to send a troponin to try and capture some of that 1% I'm missing"

In terms of standard of care I think it is debatable. Certainly if you polled many community physicians in my area you would find them checking a troponin on this guy. What does the academic literature say about the practice? Here is an example:

J Emerg Med. 2004 May;26(4):401-6.

Outcome of low-risk patients discharged home after a normal cardiac troponin I.

Smith SW, Tibbles CD, Apple FS, Zimmerman M.

Department of Emergency Medicine, Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis,
Minnesota 55415, USA.

Patients with symptoms suggestive of, but at low risk for, acute coronary syndrome (ACS), who have a negative electrocardiogram (EKG) and a single normal troponin I at 6-9 h after symptom onset are frequently discharged from our Emergency Department (ED). We sought to determine their rate of adverse cardiac events at 30 days (ACE-30), defined as cardiac death or myocardial infarction (MI), by chart review, telephone interview, or county death records. Of 663 patients, data were available for 588 (89%). Mean age was 48 years; 59% were male. There were 390 patients (66%) who complained of chest pain. Previous coronary artery disease (CAD) was reported in 145 patients (25%). Two patients (0.34%) had ACE-30, both with non-ST elevation MI. There were no cases of cardiac death. None of the patients died in Hennepin County within 30 days. At our institution, low-risk patients with symptoms suggestive of ACS who aredischarged home after a normal cTnI drawn 6-9 h after symptom onset have a very low incidence of cardiac events at 30 days.

PMID: 15093844

So, a couple of thoughts

1. At least at this very well respected residency program it appears that sending low risk patients with a single negative troponin 9 hours after their pain is very common. If you practice in Minnesota an article like this might be used to establish standard of care in your community.

2. They are more aggressive than I am. I don't know that 25% of the low risk chest pain I send home has previously known coronary disease.

3. If you do decide to do it there is at least some evidence in the literature that it is a safe practice.


This case becomes more difficult if you change it to one hour of pain or intermittant pain.

I still haven't heard some of the other fairly long standing private practice docs like docb and spyder weigh in on how they practice.
 
We are now using protocols to decrease throughput times (last year it was "utilization review" and we couldn't order any labs, now it's "throughput" and everything gets ordered automatically on every patient. Management fads. Next year they'll decide we can be more effecient if we weat lingere. I'll let you know how it goes). Cardiac enzymes are in most of the protocols so I get to document that I never would have ordered enzymes on this clearly non-cardiac patient yet they were done by protocol and they're negative so there. It's the best of both worlds.
 
Had a 37 yo male last night with an inferior STEMI. Completely occuded circumflex at cath.

He could have easily been seen several weeks ago for chest pain and sent out. Thankfully he wasn't.
 
As one of my old attendings said, "You have to personally decide what your acceptable miss rate is."
 
As one of my old attendings said, "You have to personally decide what your acceptable miss rate is."

MudPhud:

Love the references you gave me -- i'm definatley adding them to my arsenal.

I see your point, clearly. To be honest, I agree with everything YOU say from a clinical standpoint, from your very first post. I'm just trying to, unfortunately, decide what is more palatable to a jury/judge. Of course, this might be a case of me missing the forest for the trees: We always run the risk of making poor decisions (or maybe a better term is less efficient decisions!) when too much emphasis is placed on a hypothetical fear of getting sued.


For the discussion about having the "best of both worlds" -- where the protocol order results in enzymes, but you didn't order them personally, just be aware that you're still responsible for the order since your name is on the chart. This is a problem with standing orders - it has the potential for a triage nurse to box the physician in regarding the scope of the workup. So if you believe that legally you are better off not ordering at all vs one set (which clearly MudPhud has showed might not be the case with the articles he cited) the triage nurse just forced your hand.
 
While I realize that, having yet to be sued, my perspective on this is likely to change, I think we end up chasing our tails when we try to treat our chest pain patients based on what a lawyer may say to a jury.

The truth is, a lawyer can, and will, say anything to a jury. There is no absolute protection.

Here's the cool thing from their perspective. They START with the outcome and work towards what SHOULD have been done knowing the 'answer'.

If you get only one troponin (something I've done while moonlighting) on an exceedingly low risk patient and miss an MI, the lawyer will attempt to hang you.

If you get only an ECG (something I've also done while moonlighting) on an exceedingly low risk patient adn miss an MI, the lawyer will attempt to hang you.

If you get an ECG, three sets of both troponin and CKMB, eight hours apart, AND a freaking dob echo and miss an MI, the lawyer will still attempt to hang you.

The bottom line is that there is no single test that is 100% sensitive for detecting CAD. Unless we admit every single patient (not just every single patient with chest pain) we're going to miss a patient who later has an MI. The only other way to avoid a miss is to not see any more patients and become a lawyer. At least then, you can be a perfect doctor.

Take care,
Jeff
 
For the discussion about having the "best of both worlds" -- where the protocol order results in enzymes, but you didn't order them personally, just be aware that you're still responsible for the order since your name is on the chart. This is a problem with standing orders - it has the potential for a triage nurse to box the physician in regarding the scope of the workup. So if you believe that legally you are better off not ordering at all vs one set (which clearly MudPhud has showed might not be the case with the articles he cited) the triage nurse just forced your hand.
See my argument is that when the single set gets ordered in triage I don't let it force my hand. The reason everyone believes that one set must go on to more, from the legal perspective, is that the plaintiff's shill will argue that you had enough suspicion to order the first set. I can negate that by countering that I never would have ordered the first set, it was done on protocol, but it was negative. I then list, in my chart, why I don't think it's ACS (and usually PE and aorta).

I am responsible for the test but I think I can argue that I wouldn't have done it. Clearly my biggest risk from that responsibility is that the test gets done, is positive, and I don't find out about it somehow. That's the biggest risk with your protocol orders. For example what if a patient has a test and then elopes without ever being seen. You've got to have a system to deal with that.

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong. That's the difference between law and medicine. You're never wrong in law. You just have to make arguments. That's why we hate it so much. I would argue that I can deny that I was obligated to proceed with a whole rule out just because the first set was done on protocol.
 
The bottom line is that there is no single test that is 100% sensitive for detecting CAD. Unless we admit every single patient (not just every single patient with chest pain) we're going to miss a patient who later has an MI. The only other way to avoid a miss is to not see any more patients and become a lawyer. At least then, you can be a perfect doctor.

This goes back to what I said before. If you admit all chest pain patients to the hospital, it's the only way to reduce your liability to almost zero. I've known several attendings who practice medicine like this.
 
Gotta love a legal system in which there is no right answer, and it is always your fault that you missed something that modern science or thinking couldn't have predicted on the patient who you are required to see by law.
 
If anybody runs into him, would you mind asking Amal Mattu what he would do in a small community ED with this patient? :)

It's been great getting some varied opinions here. Keep them coming!

Anybody been admitting the hypothetical cases above? I cannot imagine doing it at any of my moonlighting gigs; however, some of the guys who trained at the "more academic institutions" are admitting these guys. I cannot say by any means they are wrong for doing this --only that I get along a lot better with the hospitalist.
 
The point that only MudPhud seems to get is that it is not whether you get "just one" set of enzymes or not. The value of negative enzymes can range from pretty solid (the Hennipin study above is a good example) after 10 hours of constant pain to completely worthless if done after two hours of pain. It's all context.

The right thing to do with many of these patients is more about good medicine than trying to come up with a safe playbook for some future legal deposition. If you have someone who is low risk with symptoms not suggestive of angina, you shouldn't even go down the enzyme pathway because you're going to be wasting time and money a) ordering tests which can't possibly change your disposition or treatment and b) chasing false positive.
 
does anyone utilize the "2 hour rule out" for low risk patients?--basically get 2 sets of enzymes 2 hours apart. if there is any increase ( even if they both are in the normal range) they get admitted. One of the places we rotate at uses this and there has been some mention of this in the literature.
 
The point that only MudPhud seems to get is that it is not whether you get "just one" set of enzymes or not. The value of negative enzymes can range from pretty solid (the Hennipin study above is a good example) after 10 hours of constant pain to completely worthless if done after two hours of pain. It's all context.

The right thing to do with many of these patients is more about good medicine than trying to come up with a safe playbook for some future legal deposition. If you have someone who is low risk with symptoms not suggestive of angina, you shouldn't even go down the enzyme pathway because you're going to be wasting time and money a) ordering tests which can't possibly change your disposition or treatment and b) chasing false positive.

Bartleby,

Again, I see your point, of course! The timing plays a *huge* role in whether one is comfortable with the 'one set'.

But my issue with this line of thinking is that it's not like stroke where I can precisely pinpoint the onset of profound symptoms (setting aside for a moment the possibility that you might have a patient who is unreliable, or a family who misjudges the timing, or a patient/their family who knows that lytics are only available "within 3 hours"). When do you know if the "onset of chest pain" really signifies the time at which the clock should start with regard to a damaged heart that might cause enzymes to go positive? What if the guy had what was essentially new onset, unstable angina for two days and finally threw his infarct an hour before he got to you? Is it not plausible, then, that despite the fact you just did one set of negative enzymes "two days" after his chest pain started, you did, in fact, just sample them one hour after the actual infarct? I've never been able to reconcile this is in my head.

Hey, I hear you -- this whole issue and all the intelligent, thoughtful responses from a lot of the avatars that I recognize as experienced contributors to this board illustrate just how complicated this situation is. There are, like a million scenarios in our profession, another million "what ifs". The bottom line is, I think everyone agrees that gut instinct goes a long way towards deciding what to do (don't you just love it? For once, the decision is entirely made by a protocol), and documentation surrounding all the circumstances and factors that went into your decision for that particular case plays a large role in protecting oneself from potential litigation, rather than blind adherence to a pre-determined "playbook".
 
does anyone utilize the "2 hour rule out" for low risk patients?--basically get 2 sets of enzymes 2 hours apart. if there is any increase ( even if they both are in the normal range) they get admitted. One of the places we rotate at uses this and there has been some mention of this in the literature.

Again, I wouldn't advocate this because making decisions on an "increase" from one set to the next when both are actually negative is going to result in a lot of false positives, to say nothing of the fact that it flies against sound statistical judgement. The difference could very well be within the bounds of statistical difference if you repeated, under hypothetical conditions, the exact same blood sample.

Besides, I would venture that If this kind of false positive tips the balance far enough for one to admit them, I think you have to acknowledge that the patient must be high risk enough that they deserve a full rule out.

I acknowledge, though, it sounds enticing, and if there was data to support using cardiac enzymes in this fashion, it would change my practice, of course!
 
If one uses risk factors such as the Framingham Study, then this guy is EXTREMELY low risk. Nothing in his story regarding the type of pain makes me think AMI, including the normal EKG. If you use WELLS Criteria for PE, he is also low risk.
That is how I practice...document document document all of the NEGATIVEs in the risk factor description. Write it down, and make sure he understands. Emphasize follow up and when to return.

Yes I do use the "two hour rule out", but not in him, because he simply doesn't justify a single set...
 
There is some evidence for this. A non-validated study has been done, I think it's referred to as the Vancouver chest pain rule: A Clinical Prediction Rule for Early Discharge of Patients with Chest Pain. Annals EM 2006; 47: 1-10. It looks like a pretty good study. This needs to be validated, however, with a larger, multicenter prospective trial. I do use this on occasion.
 
As Jeff mentioned, a missed MI is going to be crucified in the courts - 1 set or none...even in the low risk patient. Based on the hypothetical scenario presented, this patient is deemed to be a low risk patient for any of the spectrum of ACS. It sounds like any of us reasonably expect to discharge this patient home with adequate follow-up. As I've mentioned, I'm part of the group that would send 1 set of enzymes. Yes, I know that most literature doesn't support just 1 set, but real world practice...it happens. If my enzymes are negative, it confirms what I expected anyway. If it comes back positive, sure it's indeterminate at that point given that there are many causes to have troponin elevations, but at that point, my management/disposition will change....this patient will now get admitted.

I'm with you all....legal medicine sucks. The retrospectoscope is going to hurt no matter what...
"Why didn't you order cardiac enzymes?"
"Why didn't you admit this patient for a proper risk stratification and consultation with a cardiologist?"
"Why did you order an EKG and nothing else"
And on and on....

So my basic point....a positive troponin will change my disposition. This is why I order the test. A negative troponin further confirms my initial impression. And as said before, the patient hypothetically described isn't unstable angina so even with the negative troponin, clinically I believe I've already ruled this out.
 
Just because a lawyer asks a question "Why didn't you XX", it doesn't mean that is practicing the standard of care. Furthermore, a single enzyme study in a patient with no clinical risk factors is NOT practicing the standard of care...it can be argued that if you ordered a single set...then you were SUSPICIOUS of cardiac necrosis and you are open to the argument of "If you were suspicious of an AMI and you ordered a single set, why didn't you order the standard second set".

Now, if this was a smoker with hypertension upon arrival uses crack or has a significant past medical history, then that is a different story. But as it stands the patient describes non cardiac chest pain and needs primary care follow up and STRICT instructions. He needs 1 EKG on arrival, possibly one at discharge and an xray. If the documentation is clear and describes your ability to risk stratify, then you have a better position to defend than if you ordered enzymes.
 
Interesting discussion.

I am with ErMudPhud on this one. I do do one set. Two if they're in the ED for 3 or more hours. I document document document. Risk factors (or lack thereof) for ACS/PE/etc. I discuss, at length (in real life, and in the chart) what the patient and I agree upon, which, to be honest, since most EM guys are masters of the spin, involve close follow up with their PCP and to return if "your symptoms get worse in any way or are no better."

I generally don't admit patients that are < 40 for "rule out chest pains" unless they have some significant risk factors (one being a gut feeling, but the others are strong strong famHx, DM). If they have known CAD, they generally get admitted.

Here in DC we have TONS of early CAD and ESRD, so our average 30 some year old generally tends to be a bit higher risk. Today I had a 30 year old ESRD/CABG from uncontrolled htn/dm. Weird.

So, I do one set, and have DC'd them. With the caveat to return if worse in any way or no better. Our computer system allows us to check if patients return, and generally they do not (or perhaps they died and went to another ER for their code)....

Q
 
I am not worried too much about the over forty guy --these guys I can spin to bring in and r/o. It's the under 40 guy who I routinely d/c that I was pondering. The ones that we as a community are being pinched by are the ones that present with no chest pain, younger than 40, and females without obvious risk factors (i.e. undiagnosed SLE).

Here's an great study to support early dispositon (100% sens, 100% spec):
Ninety-minute accelerated critical pathway for chest pain evaluation
Annals of Emergency Medicine - Volume 40, Issue 6 (December 2002)
(original article in Am J Cardiol 2001)

-though, as the posters above have already pointed out: cardiac enzymes can only detect mypcardial cell death, not ischemia.
 
I remember reading the study that EMFreakz quoted in Annals. I was really excited since at our institution we DONT HAVE TELEMETRY BEDS. This means that all patients who are awaiting their 8 hr rule out (culture at our institution) need to stay in our observation area until they have an 8 hr negative troponin and repeat EKG. Additionally it is very easy to pull the trigger and consult cardiology who will then make disposition for you...but not until 8 am the next morning. In order to get a stress test or ECHO you need to consult cardiology too.

The problem with that study was that it was retrospective and needs to be validated prospectively before implemented. Additionally I have done some searching and there IS evidence that in patients who presented with chest pain of greater than 12 hrs (one study) or 6 hrs (another study) that a single troponin I had a very good sensitivity in detecting patients with ACS. These studies I found were retrospective in nature and were actually subgroup analysis of larger studies. I guess that this provides you SOME evidence towards ordering one troponin...but not GOOD evidence that this is an acceptable practice.

This patient is also interesting in regards to PE. I just came across a GREAT reference for the "so there" file in regards to low risk patients and even ordering a d-dimer. Kline published a study which put forward a retrospectively derived, prospectively validated clinical decision rule for risk stratifying patients for PE. Here is the reference:

Kline JA et al. Clinical criteria to prevent unnecessary diagnostic testing in emergency department patients with suspected pulmonary embolism.
J Thromb Haemost. 2004 Aug;2(8):1247-55.

Basically the rule is that if you have all of the following: Age < 50 years, pulse < 100 bpm, SaO(2) > 94%, no unilateral leg swelling, no hemoptysis, no recent trauma or surgery, no prior PE or DVT, no hormone use then it is not necessary to even order a D-dimer. You can use this in additon to the Wells criteria in order to risk stratify people into three groups:
VERY low risk - nothing
low risk - d-dimer
med/high risk - CT

In this guy I would get a EKG, CXR and pulse ox. If these were all negative I would discharge the guy home with follow-up and explicit instructions to return to the ED if his symptoms were not resolved or worsened at any time.
 
What about a family physician. Let's say you have an 18 y/o with sharp chest pains which get worse when breathing in, and reproducible by palpation. Do you send him to the ER to CYA, or would it be legally acceptable to tell him to go home and take NSAIDs and go to the ER if things don't get better, or get worse.
 
Are any of your institutions doing the triple rule out CT (coronary, pulmonary, aorta)? This seems like it has the possibility of limiting admissions for low to intermediate risk patients, although studies are still pending. As far as I know, only a handful of places are doing these routinely (I think William Beaumont in Michigan is one).
 
What about a family physician. Let's say you have an 18 y/o with sharp chest pains which get worse when breathing in, and reproducible by palpation. Do you send him to the ER to CYA, or would it be legally acceptable to tell him to go home and take NSAIDs and go to the ER if things don't get better, or get worse.


Sure, the FP could send him to the ER. But if there's no more to the story then the above (family history? antecedent trauma? possible habitus for likely pneumo? etc.) there's nothing I'm going to do that the FP can't do in the office.

But I will laugh at you, so that's a plus:thumbdown:
 
Sure, the FP could send him to the ER. But if there's no more to the story then the above (family history? antecedent trauma? possible habitus for likely pneumo? etc.) there's nothing I'm going to do that the FP can't do in the office.

But I will laugh at you, so that's a plus:thumbdown:

Yeah, no family hx, no significant mhx of his own, no trauma (but maybe a history consistent with muscle strain), SaO2 is 100% on room air, other vitals all normal. You just wonder if a good lawyer could pull something off in court, like why you didn't send him for an ECG or something...
 
Yeah, no family hx, no significant mhx of his own, no trauma (but maybe a history consistent with muscle strain), SaO2 is 100% on room air, other vitals all normal. You just wonder if a good lawyer could pull something off in court, like why you didn't send him for an ECG or something...

FPs routinely do EKG in the office, most can also do CXR and check a pulse ox. I don't even know if I would do all that in the patient that you described though.
 
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