Child Abuse

[kedhegard]

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I have a question for anyone with any sort of experience to answer:

I was visiting someone whom I know very well, whom I have always known to be both explosive when angry, and fairly rough on his children. I have done my best to stay out of this person's business when it comes to whether he is crossing into actual child abuse, figuring that from what I have seen, the children would probably turn out worse in the foster system than being manhandled from time to time. God knows I got my fair share of spankings when I was a kid, and I turned out fine.

That being said, while I was visiting this person, his 3 year old son said "I want some more [something]". The father grabs the son, says "you say please!", turns the child upside down, holding him by the ankle, and proceeds to spank him with a great amount of force. I couldn't believe my eyes. I have spoken with other people who spend time with this person, and with some of his older children and their friends, and supposedly this sort of thing is quite common in that household.

What should I do? I know the technicalities, but this person is neither a patient of mine, nor was any actual brutal physical harm done (bruising, bleeding, etc.) It was, however, one of the most demeaning things I have seen done to a child besides sexual abuse. Please, share any thoughts that you might have.

 

[dredd]

I would definately contact child protective services or whatever social services you have in your state. They don't always take children away from child abusers, a lot of their work is involved with education, monitoring and assessing for future risk. They aren't the best at what they do since they are usually understaffed and poorly managed, but it's better then nothing. If you are a phyisician, I'd also sit down with the father and have a talk with him too. I don't expect that it will do anything besides get him upset with you, but I think that you have an obligation to at least try. It doesn't have to be anything confrontational, part of it can just be saying how it looked like he may have "unintentionally" be putting the child at risk for serious injury and telling him how hitting children isn't a good way to raise them. If he was doing this type of behavior in front of you, I'm almost certain that he does worse things to his kid behind closed doors.

 

[lazure]

Contact your local child protection services NOW. If you're a licenced health professional you are obligated to do this by law (depends on your local laws). If you're not, you at least have an ethical responsibility. I wouldn't talk to the father directly given that you have a personal not a professional relationship with him.

 

[LTbulldogs]

Don?t contact a soul. He was probably just disciplining the kid for not being polite. He didn?t take a bat or wrench to the kid. He just spanked him. You probably don?t know the full story. The kid was probably admonished many times before about his manners and it probably just caught up with him. To report somebody to an agency just because YOU thought it looked demeaning is simply ridiculous. He didn?t puncture the skin, he didn?t hit him with an inappropriate object, and the kid wasn?t bleeding. The kid will learn next time to be polite. And if it was demeaning, who cares. He?s just a kid. He?ll get over it. Something similar like that happened to me when I was in Junior High School. I was impolite to the teacher and got in lots of trouble for it. I got the spanking of my life?except it wasn?t my parents doing the spanking, it was my principal. I was spanked with a very large board named ?the board of education?. It may have felt a little demeaning to be spanked in front of a lot people with an infamous whipping tool that had a big broad engraving of the phrase "board of education" on it, but I got over it and I?m better for it.

 

[dredd]

Picking a child up by the ankle and spanking them for not saying please is about the father taking out his anger on the child, not about teaching him to say please. It's absurd how we are one of the few civilized countires that still allows some form of corpal punishment. I don't understand why it's wrong to hit a pet or another person because they do something wrong, yet, how it's ok to hit your kid for doing something "wrong". Anyways, picking a 3 yr old up by the ankle to spank them should at least get you arrested in most states. I don't know the exact incidence, but I suspect that when kids get old enough to hit back, they do, and that's usually when these parents stop thinking that they have someone smaller then them to take their anger out on.

 

[LTbulldogs]

Picking a child up by the ankle and spanking them for not saying please is about the father taking out his anger on the child, not about teaching him to say please. It's absurd how we are one of the few civilized countires that still allows some form of corpal punishment. I don't understand why it's wrong to hit a pet or another person because they do something wrong, yet, how it's ok to hit your kid for doing something "wrong". Anyways, picking a 3 yr old up by the ankle to spank them should at least get you arrested in most states. I don't know the exact incidence, but I suspect that when kids get old enough to hit back, they do, and that's usually when these parents stop thinking that they have someone smaller then them to take their anger out on.

Arrested? NO...and is simply absurd. Praised? Maybe...That parent has taught his kid a lesson that he is not likely to forget. If you want to arrest a parent for picking their kid up by the ankle and spanking them, then over half of America will be in jail next week simply because many more parents do much more than that. That doesn't mean they're child abusers, it just means that they discipline THEIR kids different than you do.

 

[kedhegard]

So you think it's ok, or even great that the father disciplines his children like this? I've talked to another one of his children, who is 23 years old, and he remembers being hit for lots of different things, most of which were totally benign, like leaving things outside overnight. He even had his head stuck in the dog's water dish one time for not filling it up _without_ being told. You think this is a good way to raise children? You think they will grow up to be confident, calm individuals? More than likely not. They will take their anger out on their families the same way it was done to them. If you plan on raising children like this, let's all hope you don't have them to begin with. You'll be doing society a favor and maybe saving some child's life somewhere down the line.

By the way, I'm sure we've all been spanked before. A symbolic paddling (which I'm sure you were more embarrased by than hurt by) doesn't compare to a situation in which you completely lose control of your own body, and don't even understand what you have done to begin with. Nice try though.

 

[LTbulldogs]

If you were so sure that it was wrong, why did you ask for our confirmation?

 

[kedhegard]

Confirmation of my suspicion from people with more experience....how about get off my thread.

 

[LTbulldogs]

Confirmation of my suspicion from people with more experience....how about get off my thread.

How about you mind your own business and stay out of people's lives. You posted this ridiculous message. This is a public forum. Its not your forum. Get a life and stay out of other peoples.

 

[Kimya]

Hi,

I am getting a MSW in social Work, not with child protective services but I have unfortunately come across situations when I have had to report.

First let me say that the laws vary from state to state, but you might want to check since you are a mandated reporter. It may be that you are still a mandated reporter even if you are not seeing the person as a client. If so report IMMEDIATELY. You are putting yourself at risk of liability if something happens to that child and you did not report.

Secondly, in california at least you can call the hotline and explain the situation to them. You can be anonymous if you are not held by mandated reporting laws. Based on what you have said, I would imagine that due to the age of the child, that you saw what happened directly, and that there is previous history in the family they may send someone out to investigate. There are no bruises/marks but that sounds like excessive discipline for spanking. Holding by one ankle upside down and spanking? Again I am not a CPS expert but it is not foregone that they would remove the child for that, however they may require parenting classes, counseling. It may be that this guy needs a wake up call.

Believe me I understand your ambivalence about getting involved. Bureaucracy and a not so great foster care system don't exactly inspire confidence in the system. That said, based on what you have told me I would report it. I can tell you that even if they don't go out to investigate, there is at least a record so if it escalates they have a previous history.
Lastly if you report as a mandated reporter in CA you can call and find out the status of the investigation. If you report anonymously you don't have that right.

Good luck.

 

[kedhegard]

How about you mind your own business and stay out of people's lives. You posted this ridiculous message. This is a public forum. Its not your forum. Get a life and stay out of other peoples.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, why do you continue to post? The only thing you are accomplishing is making yourself look more and more like an idiot. Just cut your losses and leave.

By the way, I'm connected to the situation in a pretty intimate way, that you know nothing about. So how about you stay out of it, and save yourself further embarrassment.



Thanks to everyone else for the encouragement. I'll be talking to a child advocacy rep. (whom I met through a concerned friend) soon.

 

[LTbulldogs]

If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, why do you continue to post? The only thing you are accomplishing is making yourself look more and more like an idiot. Just cut your losses and leave.

By the way, I'm connected to the situation in a pretty intimate way, that you know nothing about. So how about you stay out of it, and save yourself further embarrassment.



Thanks to everyone else for the encouragement. I'll be talking to a child advocacy rep. (whom I met through a concerned friend) soon.

the only absolute fool on this forum is you. You should have gotten the spanking because you're so out of hand it's not even funny.

 

[kedhegard]

the only absolute fool on this forum is you. You should have gotten the spanking because you're so out of hand it's not even funny.

That makes no sense at all. I don't know your educational background (if you have one), but debate must not have been your strong suit.

Just stop. I know you're going to post a reply with something else completely inane and repetitive, but I won't be reading it. Just save yourself the trouble, and use that time to think about how you can change your life.

 

[LTbulldogs]

That makes no sense at all. I don't know your educational background (if you have one), but debate must not have been your strong suit.

Just stop. I know you're going to post a reply with something else completely inane and repetitive, but I won't be reading it. Just save yourself the trouble, and use that time to think about how you can change your life.

I'm not trying to debate an obvious mildly ******ed special Ed dropout. You're not worth my time. I would however appreciate it if you stop talking me. I'm not saying anything to you, I'm just responding to your ridiculous posts. Leave me alone. Let me be. That's your problem now, you seem to enjoy sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.

 

[lazure]

Please tell me you're not going to be a physician....

 

[aphistis]

I'm not trying to debate an obvious mildly ******ed special Ed dropout. You're not worth my time. I would however appreciate it if you stop talking me. I'm not saying anything to you, I'm just responding to your ridiculous posts. Leave me alone. Let me be. That's your problem now, you seem to enjoy sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.

Kedhegard: I'm betting LT is the abusive parent you're thinking about turning in here, or at least one in a similar situation, or at the very least was abused as a kid and is now trying to rationalize his treatment as normal, healthy behavior.

LT- There's help out there. You're not a freak, and with some good psychotherapy, maybe medication, and time & hard work, there's still hope for you to leave your stunted development behind and end up a healthy, productive member of society.



😉

 

[PACtoDOC]

As much as holding the kid upside down might seem overkill, no one knows the situation for real. In this day and age with kids joining gangs, and doing adult-like crimes at a younger and younger age, someone besides CPS needs to get a backbone and admit that certain populations of kids need "big bad spankings" now and then to show who is in control, and that their behavior will not be tolerated. I am sorry to say, but sometimes it comes down to having to basically sit on a kid in order to spank them. Kids don't generally assume the position and say "spank me", instead they squirm and try to run. Too many people spare the rod these days, and our society has become spoiled because of it. It is not our job as parents to be liked, and if we have to occassionally be feared, then that is an unfortunate part of the job. For every new ADHD kid I have seen in practice, there are at least 5 out there who are ADHD-like because their parents are being controlled by an out of control kid. MOst of these kids would be better off with a bit of "spank therapy" from a parent in control than a handful of extended release Ritalin. Holding the kid by his legs may have been the only way to keep the kid from kicking, and who knows if this was the 15th time that day the kid had been in trouble? Don't make broad generalizations because you felt uncomfortable in the situation, and then don't give additional details to support your case only after you get feedback you don't like from LT. You came here asking for opinions, and mine is from a parent's point of view. How many others here are parents?

 

[kinetic]

A number of points. In my opinion, the parent was going overboard. That being said:

As I understand it, your duty to report child abuse is a responsibility, but you should understand that this is not something you do flippantly. Even in a practice setting, one does not just call CPS because they "feel" that someone is being abusive. You generally require some sort of proof (multiple hospital visits, fractures of the lower extremities in children who are not yet self-ambulatory, retinal hemorrhages, etc.), although once you have that proof you are required ethically to report. If your basis for reporting is "if he does that in front of me, he must be stabbing his child with rusty forks behind closed doors" then you better grow up.

Being a physician is not a license to report people who parent in a way that you disapprove of. You must be careful to distinguish between someone actually being abusive and someone who is participating in a form of discipline that you don't believe in. For example, you yourself stated that you were spanked as a child. There are many people nowadays who believe that ANY form of corporal punishment (laying hands on anyone in any manner) is abuse. So, would you have reported your parents? How would you feel if someone else did? Get the idea? I think that's LTBulldogs' point.

Now, on a side note, if you guys don't want opposing viewpoints, then don't post. As LTBulldogs said, are you here because you want to hear everyone tell you you're right or are you here because you actually want to hear an answer to your question? And to say that you disapprove of spanking and then to turn around and say someone should be spanked for speaking their mind DOES show hypocrisy and stupidity.

 

[kedhegard]

Who disapproved of the spanking (me) and then said someone should be spanked for speaking their mind? I believe it was LT who said that I should be spanked...get your facts straight before you call someone stupid and hypocritical.

Look, what happened was obviously abuse. It doesn't matter how many times the kid had misbehaved that day, that particular type of punishment fits the criterion for child abuse. Plain and simple. I believe a spanking is in order for serious offenses...not an upside down beating. You didn't see how hard he was hitting this child. A THREE YEAR OLD child. Add in the fact that the child was asking for more soda, and it compounds the issue further. How is this father going to react when the kid is older and actually does something worth being punished for?

To clarify something, I had spent the previous night at this person's house, and the children had been well behaved, as usual. The father had corrected the child ONE other time that day for not saying "Please", and the next time was followed with the beating. Like I said, however, that doesn't matter. These things escalate over time, and kids die because nobody says anything for fear of being too nosy.

The reason I objected to what LT had to say was because he presented a totally absurd argument, not because he disagreed. He basically said it was ok for people to hit their kids WHENEVER they see fit, in whatever way they please, because that it their personal choice. What's next, cigarette burns? How about we dip them in boiling water. As professionals, I would think you people would be more sensitive to this sort type of issue.

 

[kinetic]

Oh, wait. You're right. I misread who posted, so I'll withdraw that one comment.

The remainder of my post stands.

 

[kinetic]

P.S. I only wish we could be more nosy. That way, I could get all the jack-off patients locked up for drug abuse, tell their signficant others about their extra-marital affairs and STDs, and tell their employers how bad they're trying to screw them on workman's comp. However, I unfortunately have to obey the law. I think it's ******ed that people want super-policing when it comes to child abuse and everything else is 'confidential' and we 'have to be understanding'.

 

[kedhegard]

It's confidential because they are adults hurting themselves. The children, on the other hand, deserve our protection.

 

[PACtoDOC]

funny how you continue to add detail to suit your opinion....where was all this detail in your OP?

 

[Harrie]

A number of points. In my opinion, the parent was going overboard. That being said:

As I understand it, your duty to report child abuse is a responsibility, but you should understand that this is not something you do flippantly. Even in a practice setting, one does not just call CPS because they "feel" that someone is being abusive. You generally require some sort of proof (multiple hospital visits, fractures of the lower extremities in children who are not yet self-ambulatory, retinal hemorrhages, etc.), although once you have that proof you are required ethically to report. If your basis for reporting is "if he does that in front of me, he must be stabbing his child with rusty forks behind closed doors" then you better grow up.

Actually, this isn't really true. You shouldn't wait for proof to report child abuse. If you wait for retinal hemorrhages or multiple fractures, you have waited too long. If you have any suspicion as a physician, i.e. injuries with a fishy story, you have the LEGAL OBLIGATION to report. It is NOT the physicians duty to do any investigation. In fact, CPS prefers that you don't go digging around for proof. Make your complaint and they will investigate. Just because a family is being investigated doesn't mean that the children will be yanked from their parents. Is the system perfect...No. Why do I know too many CPS details? We had to have a four-hour (very painful) in-service. I think this is what they said over...and over...and over...for FOUR HOURS!

 

[Harrie]

P.S. I only wish we could be more nosy. That way, I could get all the jack-off patients locked up for drug abuse, tell their signficant others about their extra-marital affairs and STDs, and tell their employers how bad they're trying to screw them on workman's comp. However, I unfortunately have to obey the law. I think it's ******ed that people want super-policing when it comes to child abuse and everything else is 'confidential' and we 'have to be understanding'.

SO TRUE!

 

[irlandesa]

I would be very cautious about how to approach reporting this man; definitely go for the anonymous route if you can under the laws in your state.. He doesn't sound too stable to say the least, and I think it is very telling that his 23 y/o son has not reported the situation with his little brother. I have no doubt from what you've written that he might attempt to retaliate against you if CPS informs him that you reported the incident. Yes, you are obligated to protect the child (although the possibility of foster care placement is not ideal; I had several classmates in high school who were physically, sexually, and emotionally abused by foster parents), but protecting yourself and your family (if relevant) seems important too. Good luck..

 

[bubbajones]

oh please thats nothing. My father used to get his baseball bat after me. I can run fast as hell now.

 

[smkoepke]

while i think the upside down by one leg spanking is excessive, i would look for a few other things before reporting. How is the relationship between the 23 yr old and dad, how does the 3 yr old act with dad (does he always look scared around him or does he seek comfort from the parent, love and receive it etc...) I am a parent of a three yr old and yes she does get her little bottom spanked when it is warranted, and i have had a lady threaten to call the cops on me because i smacked her jean-covered behind when she tried to snatch away from me and run into the street. Told her to mind her own business, because my kid is going to learn to listen! (i am raising a child not training a delinquent..) Now I absolutely do not believe in excessive spanking and degradation, but i think that if you have to ask the question about whether or not it was abuse, then really think about it before you report it. If you have seen other things and this is just one incident or the tip of the iceberg from what you know then by all means, protect the child and report it.

 

[save10]

you should refer to the episode of the simpsons where Marge and Homer are accused of child neglect. Get all the facts before you call CPS. If you get it wrong you'll look like a serious douche bag. Hearsay from other people doesnt mean anything. And parents can still spank their kids so just make sure.

 

[Rugger81]

Sounds like this guy does need some anger management. Spanking is one thing (and I firmly believe that you cannot reason with a 4-year old, sometimes the only thing they understand is a light crack on the butt), but it sounds like this man is pushing it to the extreme. Pushing a kid's face into a dog's water bowl for not filling it up isn't a normal method of punishment.

Like someone posted earlier, if he's willing to hang the kid upside down and hit him in front of you, he's probably willing to do a lot more behind closed doors.

Keep a watchful eye. No child should suffer because his/her parent can't control their emotional problems.

 

[no-see-um]

No question. I would report it if I were you. If they want to take it up or not, that is their decision, but the fact that it was done right in front of a doctor, I believe, mandates that it be reported. It doesn't sound like a parent who is teaching his kid, it sounds like a parent who is demeaning and abusing his kid in front of you. There is a difference.