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Buster Douglas

Buster Douglas

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Why I Am Posting: Because I am sick of these MD vs. DO threads and those future doubting DO?s out there.

I. Stigma? good

- DO's are a minority and like any other minority DO's may be treated as such:

1. They love ya cause you're different
2. They hate ya cause you're different

However, I feel that most people admire those that choose the osteopathic route. It takes a certain kind of person to go against the grain and pursue medicine for medicine's sake.

II. Residency

- Graduates of osteopathic medical schools have MORE opportunities to match than graduates of allopathic medical schools.

DO's take the COMLEX and have the option of taking the USMLE
MD's can only take the USMLE

Thus... DO's can match into any MD or DO program but MD's can only match into allopathic programs...

III. "7 O = D.O."

Yes, this may be true, but so does ?7 0 = M.D.?

Whoever started or BELIEVES in this philosophy... man... I feel for you.

Pass your courses; pass your boards? yeah, why not? But I think it?s ignorant and dangerous to think that a less competitive atmosphere characteristic of DO schools relegates you to a less competitive specialty. To become an osteopathic physician is a privilege and if you have your heart set on surgery or any other specialty, you can do it as an osteopath. There may be a reason why a huge percentage of DO's are primary care... Hopefully, these doctors are among those truly seeking to fill this societal void, but I am sure that there are many DO (and MD) students who have followed this ?do-enough-to-get-by? philosophy which has resorted them to entering fields they have no interests in.
Don't get me wrong... I agree with the DO objective-- this world does need more primary care physicians, especially in rural regions, however I say "Be the dream and never settle!!" As an osteopathic student you have the potential to do MORE than an MD student in any field (use of OMM, residency options, etc.).

*CONCLUSION

People have found their way into osteopathic medicine for various reasons (second career, DO philosophy, OMM, financial aid, low MCAT, low GPA, etc.), but for whatever reason the admissions committee at your school (and possibly more) felt that you and everyone you attend class with are capable of becoming great doctors. Study to be the best at what you wish for and forget the naysayers ?for what you believe yourself to be capable of is still only less than what you are truly capable of."
 
Nicely said!🙂 DO's Rule!
 
I like this post, especially since I am applying to allopathic and osteopathic neurosurgery programs. It keeps my spirits up. Thanks man.
 
Buster Douglas,

I would respectfully submit that your comments are truely misguided on many levels.

I think that these comments and the RA-RA response they have generated from the other posters in this thread are indicative of one of the most significant problems in osteopathic medicine today; that being a total unwillingness to hear any kind of criticism.

Its a real barrier to improvement when all you can talk about is how great you are. This seems to be a common feature of AOA publications.

There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your career path, that is something every health professionial student has the right to do... what is problematic is when you begin to name call ("doubting DO", "naysayer") and make some pretty sweeping assertions from a very naive (ignorant?) perspective (ie, not having even started school yet) just because someone tried to point out some things that have dissapointed them about their experiences in Osteopathic Medicine.

I wonder if you will have the same enthusiasm in 2 years, or even after your first semester. I really hope that your experiences meet your hopes and expectations.
 
Actually, I think Buster's post is great. I, as a fellow naive and ignorant pre-med, agree with him.

All Buster did was point out that (1) DOs are a minority and therefore will be both loved and hated, (2) DO graduates can try to match both DO and MD which increases the choices and (3) even though most schools set a minimum score of 70%, you should try to get the highest scores you can and be the best doctor you can be. How is that truly misguided on many levels?

It's not true that osteopathic medicine doesn't want to listen to criticism. It's just that the criticism is usually in the form of untrue statements, lies, insults and ignorance. Example: criticism that's OK - "The DO profession needs more hospitals that offer quality osteopathic residencies so that DO graduates have less of a need to look into allopathic residencies." Criticism that's not OK - "DO students are just MD wannabes with low GPA and MCAT scores." Which kind of "criticism" do you hear most often?

It's hard not be RA-RA about your (hopefully) future profession when all you hear from people are negative comments. Sometimes you just have to get things off your chest.
 
I am a third year - not a "naive pre-med" - and I agree with Buster Douglas's statements 100%. What is wrong in having some confidence in our skills as future DO's? Should we have the "oh, I'll NEVER be as good as an MD" attitude? I think not!

Having confidence in the skills of DO's and saying "we are better, and MD's suck" are two entirely different things. I don't think Buster Douglas was saying that. And the statement about DO's and having more residency opportunities...that is true!

For the bazillionth time...DO's CAN DO JUST AS MUCH AS MD's...(as much as the "naive pre-meds" hate to accept it 😡 )
 
It's funny that the subject line for this thread implies a healthy message that osteopaths have many things going for them while not including a comparison to their MD counterparts. I suppose it didn't take long for that sentiment to get sabotaged. It seems like at least one quarter of the threads in the osteopathic forums ultimately end up to be a debate about the merits of the DO profession in relation to MDs. While I think it is important to acknowledge the differences between the two career paths, I think we DOs are making a mistake when we choose to defend our profession. Like anything in life, it is the most secure individuals that don't need to defend themselves. You don't see any SDNers that are studying at Harvard Medical School defending the merits of their education. If any of us saw that, we'd probably think to ourselves that maybe Harvard Med School isn't all it's cracked up to be. I know this will inevitably fall on deaf ears, but I will say it anyway: any and all DOs that I have spoken with about the DO vs. MD topic universally told me to "never defend your degree." I think it comes off as a sign of weakness. Let our performance as physicians do the talking and the rest will fall into place. Out-diagnose, out-treat, and out-perform the MDs on the hospital wards and this debate will finally be rendered moot. Anything short of that will invariably be perceived as blowing smoke, and ultimately a sign of doubt about our perception of ourselves as competent physicians.

It has always baffled me that there are still medical students out there who are intelligent people, who have worked their tail off and put their time in, who know their abilities in this world are a precious and rare thing, who still feel the need to defend their accomplishments. Or even worse, who feel the need to immediately go on the defensive and put bullets in the empty gun of those that would use it against them.
 
Originally posted by unk_fxn
Buster Douglas,

I think that these comments and the RA-RA response they have generated from the other posters in this thread are indicative of one of the most significant problems in osteopathic medicine today; that being a total unwillingness to hear any kind of criticism.

There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your career path, that is something every health professionial student has the right to do... what is problematic is when you begin to name call ("doubting DO", "naysayer") and make some pretty sweeping assertions from a very naive (ignorant?) perspective (ie, not having even started school yet) just because someone tried to point out some things that have dissapointed them about their experiences in Osteopathic Medicine.

I wonder if you will have the same enthusiasm in 2 years, or even after your first semester. I really hope that your experiences meet your hopes and expectations.
Click to expand...



Man, someone please teach this guy how to argue something. How can you respect someone's opinion when they contradict themselves? First he says that the "RA-RA" response is indicative of our problems and then he states, "there is nothing wrong with taking pride in your career path." So, which does he want us to take as his opinion?

And I wonder if you will have enthusiasm in 2 years...or if you will be spending your days posting negative comments about osteopathic medicine. The one thing I find amusing is that in all my years of waiting tables in a very expensive, posh restaurant, I met many, many unhappy MDs who told me not to get into medicine. However, all the DOs that I met were ENTHUSIATIC about their profession and seemed extremely happy.

So, my question is, exactly what are the "significant problems" that unk_fxn says plague osteopathic medicine? Seems to me that allopathic medicine has its problems too, i.e. students dedicating their life to medicine simply because their parents want them to, only to discover that they are very unhappy in their profession and end up telling pre-meds like me not to become a doctor over dinner. But, you never see DO students going to the allopathic forum and posting negative comments about their profession. I understand the stigma DOs have to deal with, but we are all trying to reverse those negative opinions by educating people like unk_fxn that the curriculum at DO schools is exactly the same as the curriculum at MD schools except for the extra training in OMM. So, tell me unk_fxn, if I pass all my classes in medical school how would you be a better doctor than me? The only thing that is going to happen is you are going to look like an a** if you keep up with your attitude when you are doing your residency alongside DOs.


And, in response to Plinko?s post, the only reason why students are defending themselves is because there are those out there who believe we are inferior.
 
m16surgeon,
Of course I agree with you that there are those out there among the misinformed that think DOs are inferior. I was simply stating that defending our position in the manner in which it has been carried out in these forums does more harm than good in so far as people's perceptions of us is concerned. My experiences throughout my life have lead me to believe that the people who are over zealous in throwing down the gauntlet in response to any opposition to their way of thinking usually indicates that they have a chip on their shoulder. I don't think we as DOs prosper by falling into traps such as the one previously set by unk_fxn.
 
Buster Douglas, see what you started? Yet another DO vs MD thread!!!!! :laugh:
 
Does having a chip on their shoulder make a DO better? I've known people in many professions, atheletes etc, who reach their full potential only by having the stigma that no one out their thinks they can do it. A DO is always fighting for respect, maybe that makes them even better.
 
Originally posted by Shinken
Buster Douglas, see what you started? Yet another DO vs MD thread!!!!! :laugh:
Click to expand...

Yeah, go figure...

Plinko,
"Never defend your degree," as it only comes off as a sign of weakness... While there maybe some truth in that, I think it's rather bold of you to deny the fact that even the "osteopathic students" section of the SDN website makes the claim, "Although there are over 43,000 D.O.s in the United States, 9 of 10 people have never heard of osteopathic medicine!" Although I am only a na?ve MS-I, I have already had my share of questions from curious people that I?m sure every osteopathic student has faced: ?Plinko, why Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine and not Columbia Med?? In answering that and similar questions; providing a brief summary of osteopathy and an explanation in the differences in curriculum and residency opportunity in a 10 minute conversation does not show a sign of weakness but a sign of confidence in knowing the difference. The more confidence we have in ourselves, the more confidence others will have in us. The intention of my original post was not to pick a fight or ?put bullets in the empty gun? of the uneducated, but to provide people, particularly osteopathic and pre-med students, factual and semi-subjective statements to consider when planning for their future.
 
Buster Douglas,

My posts were not directed towards you. I actually admire your intentions with this thread. And when I reiterated the advice spoken to me by so many of my DO professors ("never defend your degree") I was speaking of conversations we might pontentially have with future MD colleagues, not the general public. It is true that nine out of ten people don't know what a DO is, but I think it is safe to say that ten out of ten MDs know what a DO is, and it is that population of people my posts were concerned with. While I might get some heat from people for this, my belief about DO school is that it is really no different than MD school. Osteopathy is only different from allopathy in so far as the OMM portion of your curriculum is concerned, which nintey percent of practicing osteopaths don't utilize anyway. Sure they will stress the osteopathic philosophy in your OMM class, but ultimately the philosophical approach one's brings to their medical practice will be a personal decison, not something they read about in a Kimberly manual, or a Kuchera textbook. And quite frankly, at TCOM the clinical aspect of our classes make no mention of the osteopathic philosophy whatsoever. After talking with my friends at other Texas MD medical schools I found that our Clinical Medicine class is virtually no different than theirs. So I am probably not a good person to expound upon the unique qualities of the DO profession. I simply believe that it is all the same--medical school is medical school--unless you have an interest in OMT and are considering that for a specialty, or plan on using it in your Family Practice clinic. When people ask me why TCOM and not Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, the answer to that one is simple: I would have never gotten into to Columbia. But when they ask me why not Tulane (where I was accepted) instead of TCOM, I just say that medical school is medical school, and I didn't want the extra $150K in debt I would incur by going to a private school.

Again, I don't have any harsh words for anyone here. Especially not you, as I understand and respect what you were trying to do with this thread. Essentially, we are talking about two different things. You are promoting the education of people about the merits of osteopathy, which I wholeheartedly agree with you about, whereas I am saying don't argue with anyone about them. It may be a fine line, but it is one that I feel needs to be walked.
 
Originally posted by Plinko
Buster Douglas,

While I might get some heat from people for this, my belief about DO school is that it is really no different than MD school. Osteopathy is only different from allopathy in so far as the OMM portion of your curriculum is concerned, which nintey percent of practicing osteopaths don't utilize anyway.
Click to expand...


Actually, I am not sure there is any allopathic school which requires their students to rotate with a family or general practice physician from the first day of med school. From what I can see not all DO schools require this. Mine does so I can say osteopathy does have major differences to allopathy while everything learned by an allopathic student is also learned by an osteopathic one.


I also, respectfully, disagree with you plinko in that defending and ventilating openly about what you are or believe in is necessarily a sign of weakness or must be seen as such. Regards.
 
Originally posted by unk_fxn
... what is problematic is when you... make some pretty sweeping assertions...
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Oh, irony!
Originally posted by unk_fxn
... a total unwillingness to hear any kind of criticism.
Click to expand...
Originally posted by unk_fxn
... all you can talk about is how great you are.
Click to expand...
Originally posted by unk_fxn
... a common feature of AOA publications.
Click to expand...
And not of any other healthcare (I won't even specify Allopathic) related publication?
🙄
 
Plinko- You hit the nail right on the head. Don't back down! Your'e exactly right.

All of you need to understand the principle behind what Plinko is trying share with us. It is one thing to correct and educate someone in the public that knows nothing about osteopathy and makes uninformed comments or questions. In this case, it is appropriate to educate and teach that person the facts about osteopathy.
On the other hand...
What I think Plinko is trying to say is that, excluding premeds, when DO's and MD's (students or professionals) meet in these discussions, both sides are fairly educated about the other. It is true that some may make ignorant comments, but by and large, these people are educated on the two philosophies. It does NOTHING to promote Osteopathy by getting upset or acting defensive when someone makes the slightest naive (or even intentionally insulting) comment. In my opinion, it is better to be professional and not acknowledge this childishness. It's like being in grammar school again... the bully throws something at you, will you react as a kid and throw something back or will you be mature enough to realize that retaliation is ridiculous? You will notice that the only people having these discussions are the premeds and the 1st years. Very few upperclassmen jump into these DO/MD wars because a) they don't have the time for such nonsense, b) their understanding of medicine is more complete than ours, and c) they have the maturity to not react to every little naive battle. Thousands of SDNer's pass up these DO/MD war threads (arguments) on a daily basis, because they are old and ignorant. When was the last time you read a 4th year MD student write something inflamatory about DO's? People grow up in medical school. If we stop acknowledging the percieved inferiority that the few ignorant people have of us, then they have NOTHING to feed off of. So quit throwing them things to feed off of.+pissed+
 
Thank you, ameier14!


Perhaps I wasn't eloquent enough in my assertions and some of my meaning got lost along the way.

For those of you that are interested in this topic, do a search in the Allopathic forum for "osteopathic medicine." It's a couple of months old. oceandocDO does an amazing job of explaining the merits of Osteopathy to MD students while not lowering himself to some of the antagonistic comments directed towards him by the MDs. By the end of the thread he had won a lot of respect from the MD students, for both himself and Osteopaths in general, because his posture was NOT defensive but instead informative.
 
Originally posted by m16surgeon
Man, someone please teach this guy how to argue something....

we are all trying to reverse those negative opinions by educating people like unk_fxn that the curriculum at DO schools is exactly the same as the curriculum at MD schools except for the extra training in OMM.

So, tell me unk_fxn, if I pass all my classes in medical school how would you be a better doctor than me? The only thing that is going to happen is you are going to look like an a** if you keep up with your attitude when you are doing your residency alongside DOs.
Click to expand...

Hey, here's hint for ya: I am a third year in a DO program. The past two years of my life have been more than enough education about the curriculum at DO schools for me.

Check the rotations schedules for 3rd and 4th year. I think you will find that, as a general rule, DO curriculums and MD curriculums differ greatly - we as osteopathic students spend a lot more time in core specialities (FM, IM, PEDS, OB/GYN) which I think is a real strength of our profession and I think a large reason why anecodotally a lot of new DO graduates are clinically stronger than MD grads... we spend a little more time examining undifferentiated patients and a little less time on roundzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Anyway, if you want to insult me, its cool, just try to check your facts first.
 
Well, well. I was trying to get through all the post to this thread but I started getting sick to my stomach and had to quit. The only person in this thread that made any sense what-so-ever was unk_fxn. For all you medical students who haven't even started school yet, if you have the same attitude in a few years, then that's great, except you should have gone into chiropractic. I am starting my third year on Friday. I have just spent 2 years sitting through school and listening to speech after speech about how osteopathy is so great and what makes us great and how much better we are than allopathic physicians and most of these speeches came from docs who are fairly high up such as the AOA president. Actually today, I was visiting a residency program and the vice president of the AOA was there and he made a speech. What was it about? It was basically a bunch of rambling about how awesome it is to be an osteopathic doc and how when MD students visit his office for rotations, he makes them do OMT to prove a point. It was disgusting. As far as all this crap about DO's having the same opportunities (or more opportunities) than MD's - where is this information coming from? Because from everything that I see, there is a whole lot more for MD's than DO's. But I guess when you haven't even started school yet you can act like you now something when you really don't. Why can't we just learn medicine and it not be allopathic or osteopathic? I just want to learn medicine and that's it. No more DO and no more MD. For all you people who read this and get mad, then get mad. Maybe one day you'll realize that it's your attitude that is keeping the profession from advancing. I suppose most of you also think the DO MAGAZINE is equivalent to a real medical journal. Such a shame.
 
II. Residency

- Graduates of osteopathic medical schools have MORE opportunities to match than graduates of allopathic medical schools.

DO's take the COMLEX and have the option of taking the USMLE
MD's can only take the USMLE

Thus... DO's can match into any MD or DO program but MD's can only match into allopathic programs...
Click to expand...

CORRECTION:

-Most Ivy and a few of the more prestigious programs do maintain a very elitist attitude by doing all they can to dissuade and, in even some programs, completely prevent DO students from applying.

-counterbalancing that, DO students still have the opportunity to apply to DO programs unavailable to MD students, which benefits those students seeking more competitive specialties.
 
Originally posted by Buster Douglas
CORRECTION:

-Most Ivy and a few of the more prestigious programs do maintain a very elitist attitude by doing all they can to dissuade and, in even some programs, completely prevent DO students from applying.
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This is true, but becoming less of a barrier. I heard Pikeville has sent more than a few people up to the Cleaveland Clinic, and I believe they have even sent a couple folks to Yale and maybe one for surgery at UMass... all very prestigious programs... there is probably someone out there that knows more about this than I do and can comment on this...
 
Originally posted by jkhamlin
Oh, irony!

<unk_fxn makes a comment about AOA publications>

And not of any other healthcare (I won't even specify Allopathic) related publication?
🙄
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Well, from what I see... non-AOA publications talk about therapies & outcomes. AOA publications talk a lot about "uniqueness" & "unity". Yes, there are some allopathic newsletters that see the world through rose colored glasses, but in my (limited) experience - the pathologic optimism seen in "The D.O" magazine is rarely duplicated.

I am tired of AOA cheerleading. I am tired of hearing about unity & uniqueness. I am in the desert, and I am thirsty for leadership.

I think Osteopathic Medicine has some great things to offer. OMT is fantastic, and I think the DO programs' willingness to look at people who didnt get a 3.8 or break a 30 on the MCAT leads to doctors who are more well rounded and more tolerable people.

That being said - if we really think we have something better to offer - why do we want to preserve that as "unique"? I can see no other reason besides ego. If we truely have something better to offer, then it is the height of hubris to keep that to ourselves and not make every effort to see that *every* patient gets that benefit, regardless of the degree their healthcare provider has.

As it was mentioned earlier... 9/10 people dont know what a DO is. It is clear that what the AOA is doing to publicize our profession is failing.

CAN ANYONE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR ME:

Why can't we see a DO physician on "ER" or in a major motion picture? How would that impact the public's perception?
 
Because from everything that I see, there is a whole lot more for MD's than DO's
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cptcaver- duh of course there are more MDs. there are about 3 times as many schools and most of them have been around longer. were you trying to prove a point with that fact?? and what exactly has made you so freakin cynical anyway? and did it ever occur to you that some people who are just starting out may actually be educated about their profession of choice ?? seems to me if people are disappointed with their past fews years of education, they didn't know what they were getting into in the first place. and whose fault is that? not mine. and apparently not buster's either. i did my research. i made a choice. kiss my DO loving REAR END.
 
Well, a D.O. is the chief medical consultant for ER. There aren't D.O.s on the show, but one writes it 🙂
 
Well, a D.O. is the chief medical consultant for ER. There aren't D.O.s on the show, but one writes it
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I thought the Medical Supervisor for ER was Mark Morocco, MD (graduate of UC Southern California School of Medicine)? There is a DO on staff as a technical advisor (Jon Fong, DO)--but I wouldn't call him the "chief medical consultant."
 
Who really cares? No one likes ER anyway.
 
WOW.

I know there has been many strong feelings on this subject, but it always amazes (and pleases) me how even when pre-DOs, DO students, and practicing DOs discuss things on this forum, there's always civility, reason and respect (at least 99% of the time). I also spend time roaming the pre-allo forum, and that never happens with any emotionally-charged subject.

unk_fxn and cptcaver usually manage to get a rise out of me, not because they're jerks when they post, but because they usually post stuff that "hurts" in a "pride" kind of way (does that make sense?). Yes, many of us love osteopathic medicine for many different reasons, but it's good to have people that also show the other side of the coin.
 
Again, unk_fxn has brilliantly written an excerpt that is suitable for publishing. I am not about AOA cheerleading, but I will cheer for unk_fxn - Ra Ra Ray, I love the AOA. Anyway, let me tell you what has made me so freakin' cynical. I have been in school for 2 years. I have learned a ton of good stuff. I have no problem with osteopathy. I have a problem with the leadership in our profession. I have a problem with the leadership at our school. The president of the AOA came to our school last year. He wanted to show us how he does OMT. Well, let me tell you afterr being in school for 2 years and learning from one of the best in the field, I was sorely disappointed. It was a complete joke. He should have been made to leave. As I mentioned in the last post, I heard the VP of the AOA earlier this week while visiting a residency. He was nothing but a cheerleader for the AOA. He spoke in circles and made absolutely no sense. All he wanted to do was talk about how great DO's are and how bad MD's are. Something else I don't like, as I mentioned before, is the literature the AOA puts out. Our journals are ridiculous and an embarrassment to the medical profession. I am also very disappointed that the AOA has absolutely no educational materials in surgery (I know because I called and asked). The ACOS also have no educational materials. I would like to add, however, the the Central Illinois Neuroscience Foundation is an AOA neurosurgery program and it is top notch. I was super impressed by their standards and the way they train their residents. I would put that program up against any allopathic or osteopathic program in the world. Thank you for not thinking I am a jerk. I just want our profession to be better and strive for excellence. Why is it wrong to be critical of something your involved with? Criticism is what makes things better. I realize no one listens, but one day, one day, I may have enough of a name to make a difference. I love you all.
 
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

cptcaver, you just said what I hope most osteopathic med students say: "I realize no one listens, but one day, one day, I may have enough of a name to make a difference."

Instead of just complaining, we need people to go ahead and change things for the better. I can't do anything (yet). I'm not even a medical student. Complaining about things that aren't right with osteopathic medicine is OK. Complaining about things that aren't right and actually making an effort to try and change things is even better.
 
Just wanted to add that I have first hand knowledge of the Central IL Neuroscience Foundation. I'm from Bloomington, IL and I worked last summer with the D.O. that helped to begin the residency program. He's a great guy, a good physician and the program is great.

Dr_Sax
 
I am not against hearing criticisms about osteopathy. i have many of my own. however, letting these criticsims create cyncicism is a dangerous mistake.

i know that osteopathic medicine has a long way to go and a lot of things to do and to correct. i realize that, as a DO student, if i want to accomplish all that i want, which is a lot, i am going to have to make huge efforts all on my own.

i'm not niave. i am going to have to set up rotations where i want to do my residency. i'm going to have to get amazing grades, board scores, and rotation assessments, as well as join organizations to get the allopathic residency i want. why do i need to land an allopathic residency? because there are only two osteopathic residencies in the specialty i am interested in, not to mention they're both in michigan. does this disappoint me? not really.

i'm not expecting any help from anyone. because i'm not stupid. but who cares? i'm not used to having my hand held, or having things work out perfectly. so what if the AOA is a joke??? what if the leadership and the leadership at your school sucks?? did you expect them not to? beauracracy is what it is. to a certain extent, it will always be that way. but it doesn't matter to me.

if the osteopathic journals suck, don't read them. read the allopathic ones, and then in the future, write your own articles, and encourage your DO colleagues to write and publish in the DO journal as well. there is no point in complaining. do what you need to do, and little by little, the changes will be there. osteopathy is, in many respects, still very young. i'll make as many changes as i need to, to do what i want. if that means i have to take over the AOA, so be it. i hope you'll all be on board with me. but you don't hear me b*tching.
 
YEAH BABY!

Anger, resentment, fear & loathing - this is what I came to see.

Sweet.:clap:

Oh, look. I even went and used one of those smilie things, something which I said I would never do. darn.
 
Originally posted by raspberry swirl
I am not against hearing criticisms about osteopathy. i have many of my own. however, letting these criticsims create cyncicism is a dangerous mistake.

i know that osteopathic medicine has a long way to go and a lot of things to do and to correct. i realize that, as a DO student, if i want to accomplish all that i want, which is a lot, i am going to have to make huge efforts all on my own.

i'm not niave. i am going to have to set up rotations where i want to do my residency. i'm going to have to get amazing grades, board scores, and rotation assessments, as well as join organizations to get the allopathic residency i want. why do i need to land an allopathic residency? because there are only two osteopathic residencies in the specialty i am interested in, not to mention they're both in michigan. does this disappoint me? not really.

i'm not expecting any help from anyone. because i'm not stupid. but who cares? i'm not used to having my hand held, or having things work out perfectly. so what if the AOA is a joke??? what if the leadership and the leadership at your school sucks?? did you expect them not to? beauracracy is what it is. to a certain extent, it will always be that way. but it doesn't matter to me.

if the osteopathic journals suck, don't read them. read the allopathic ones, and then in the future, write your own articles, and encourage your DO colleagues to write and publish in the DO journal as well. there is no point in complaining. do what you need to do, and little by little, the changes will be there. osteopathy is, in many respects, still very young. i'll make as many changes as i need to, to do what i want. if that means i have to take over the AOA, so be it. i hope you'll all be on board with me. but you don't hear me b*tching.
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Actually you make some really good points. It took me nearly 2 years of medical school and some therapy to figure out that no one cares about my dissapointments and that when it comes to residencies I better get out there and hustle because I am truely my only advocate, and that the only way to make things better is to suck it up, take it, and hope to have some influence in the future.

The Tori Amos fan* here seems to have a real insight as to what she is signing on for and exactly what she needs to do in the next few years. I wish I had half the clue she does when I started.

*on Amos' Choirgirl Hotel Album, there is a track called "Rasberry Swirl"
 
The Tori Amos fan* here seems to have a real insight as to what she is signing on for and exactly what she needs to do in the next few years. I wish I had half the clue she does when I started.
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i have sdn to thank for most of that (as well as a crapload of my own research and some very knowledgeable friends)
 
Originally posted by unk_fxn
I am tired of AOA cheerleading. I am tired of hearing about unity & uniqueness. I am in the desert, and I am thirsty for leadership.

I think Osteopathic Medicine has some great things to offer. OMT is fantastic, and I think the DO programs' willingness to look at people who didnt get a 3.8 or break a 30 on the MCAT leads to doctors who are more well rounded and more tolerable people.

As it was mentioned earlier... 9/10 people dont know what a DO is. It is clear that what the AOA is doing to publicize our profession is failing.

CAN ANYONE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FOR ME:

Why can't we see a DO physician on "ER" or in a major motion picture? How would that impact the public's perception?
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My type of guy! I am still having trouble understanding why DOs still aren't main-stream. Why doesn't a t.v. show ever mention that physicians could be MDs or DOs (especially ones like E.R., Scrubs, and other MEDICALLY related shows)? What the heck is going on?

In order to progress effectively, osteopathic medicine must become more appealing to students with awesome stats - the simple fact that most kids with 33+ on their MCAT never even consider osteopathic medicine is troubling. There are quite a few DO students that had never given osteopathic medicine a thought until they realized their level of competitiveness as medical school applicants... no matter how much people deny it, it's a fact. For some reason, a lot of DO students go into the fetal position when someone mentions it, though.

Entrance stats are not the predictors for academic reputations, but they're certainly important factors. Until average stats at osteopathic schools are at par with a significant amount of allopathic schools, premeds and folks in the medical field will consider the DO degree to be a small notch below the MD degree. Instead of defending current entrance stats, I honestly hope that the folks that lead osteopathic medicine are trying to improve them through strategies like better advertising among premeds; enlightening the general public a little more about the philosophy; and, improving the current facilities, opportunities, education, and other attractors for premeds to the best of their ability. I think a major, major coup for the DOs could occur if we accomplish opening an osteopathic medical school at a bad-ass institution currently without a medical school. Names like Princeton, Berkeley, MIT, etc. would immediately attract the best premeds, and it would give a huge boost to the DO degree's marketability. I really hope the leadership in our profession thinks more along these types of lines than the simpler, "We're already good enough and anyone who doesn't agree can kiss our asses." We can only focus on improvement if we see the problem first - denial usually doesn't help self-actualization, especially in our profession. Improve the image instead of defending its obvious flaws - it's that simple. I honestly hope that I'm in a position some day to accomplish some of this stuff.

One thing that I find a little troubling is the fact that new DO schools are popping up without any other solid affiliations. Why aren't the pitches being made to giant state schools that are already known to the public? Why start out from scratch if you could try going after a name that is already comforting to people? Solid sports programs are some of the best advertisements in the world. Dean Smith did more for UNC's academics than any professor in its history. Really, I would want to go to a school like Mich. State if it allowed more out-of-staters, because I like the big school environment. It would be nice to have more DO programs like that, especially affiliations with solid academic institutions that are known throughout the country... really, who could ever patronize a Princetonian D.O.? If the two degrees are really equivalent, then why aren't attempts being made to make the public aware of this simple fact? Where's the creativity?

Before people release the hounds, please note that I'll be enrolling at a small town DO school for its reputation, and I'm fully aware of the commitment to rural medicine, etc.
 
Why doesn't a t.v. show ever mention that physicians could be MDs or DOs (especially ones like E.R., Scrubs, and other MEDICALLY related shows)?
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I am tired of AOA cheerleading. I am tired of hearing about unity & uniqueness.
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I'm having trouble understanding which idea you're trying to promote... no distinctions between MDs and DOs or ?separate but equals??

Maybe I?ll figure it out further down the road, but I can only theorize that most state schools would rather ask for government funding to start up an allopathic rather than an osteopathic medical school on its campus for three reasons:

1) Since most people are in the dark about osteopathic medicine, why would a bunch of old farts on a committee be more knowledgeable and receptive to the idea of starting up an ?osteopathic? school?

2) Prestige. Whether people like to accept it or not, MD schools, currently, attract undergraduate students with higher GPAs and MCAT scores.

3) Most osteopathic schools are private institutions. This fact alone, one could argue, makes a majority of osteopathic schools of better or worse quality than public medical schools, MD or DO.

Furthermore, if I had enough money and knew enough people why would I sell my idea to start a medical school (MD or DO) to a larger public or private institution when I could collect all the profit from building and running it myself?

Maybe, there?s a reason why the sudden influx of osteopathic schools popping up all over the country? :idea:
 
Osteopathy was actually on an episode of "The Sopranos" once. Jackie Aprielle, Jr. was talking to Tony at the new Vesuvio about his failing college career and fulfilling his father's wishes to become a physician.

He was talking something along the lines of how hard it is to get into med school, and then said, "I thought maybe osteopathic, but I don't have the grades for that even".

DO's ARE getting some limited publicity, but it is negative publicity. I guess we all just have to live with the fact that most of us go to DO schools because our stats make us only moderately competitive at MD schools -- something I have learned to accept and live with. Would I sacrifice an MD for a life outside of studying in undergrad? Yes. Will I let this "stigma" bother me? No.

The only thing the public needs to be aware of is that a DO is just as competant and qualified of a physician as an MD. This mess of "holistic philosophy" and "extra treatment modality" makes it all very silly. The AOA tries a little too hard and comes off making DO's sound like alternative medicine.

I don't remember who said it, but in the end they both use the same billing codes.
 
ER... hmmmm....

someone should write an ER script with a DO student rotating through county or maybe a visiting DO professor. have the DO do some OMT or something that really helps a patient, and over the course of the show have him/her explain a little about osteopathy (maybe to Dr. Corde). send the script off to Dr. Fong, or whoever is the DO consultant for the show. of course the script would have to be great, but we're all striving for greatness, right? it sounds silly (and probably is) but it would definitely get the DO word out.
absent that, i agree with the previous posts; be the best, get in the positions of power, and make the necessary changes.
remember, there was a time when western medicine did not buy into the art/science of surgery. but the medical community could not argue with it's success. this holds true today for the case of osteopathy. so be successful, get that slot at Cleveland Clinic or Mayo, publish ground breaking research, be a physician who is loved by his/her patients, and the word will get out.
the research thing cannot be stressed enough. when AOA has a journal comparable to JAMA, osteopathy will truly have come of age.
in the mean time, become a skilled physician, be good to your patients, and make lots of money. (oh yeah, money is a great way to affect change also)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

outtacyte- a really great cell
 
Originally posted by kendall
ER... hmmmm....

be the best, get in the positions of power, and make the necessary changes.
remember, there was a time when western medicine did not buy into the art/science of surgery. but the medical community could not argue with it's success. this holds true today for the case of osteopathy. so be successful, get that slot at Cleveland Clinic or Mayo, publish ground breaking research, be a physician who is loved by his/her patients, and the word will get out.
the research thing cannot be stressed enough.
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THANK YOU!


Allow me to disagree...

In my opinion, general national recognition should not be the result of imitating allopathic school admission stats and admission standards. I think, those of us, osteopathic physicians, convinced MCAT scores and GPAs do not determine the quality of a physician, need to ensure osteopathic schools continue to look beyond numbers.

With that said, since we preach the previously mentioned stats and standards show no direct relationship to the type of physician you will be, then we need to become OUTSTANDING physicians, we need PATCH ADAMS DOs , we need Rohrich DOs , Ben Carsons DOs (
dr_carson_sb.gif
)and DOs excelling like many other extraordinary MDs. We do not need cowards who join osteopathic medicine as back ups (Unless they repent from their sinful ways and realize the tremendous medical reform potential layed before them 😉 ). And we are working towards that goal. Check this out:

1)UMDNJ-SOM named among the top 20 geriatric medicine centers by Usnews 2004 (Yep yep up there with Hopkins)

2) Philadelphia Magazine naming UMDNJ-SOM physician graduates as TOP doctors since 1994.

3) Dr. Ciervo (UMDNJ-SOM) Having successfully introduced the "community medicine" class which allows MS1s to see patients (hands on) from day one.

4) Dr. Gallagher having opened the "Headache center" first of its kind in the country.

And many, many other successes from hard working DOs that have been achieved and those that are to be achieved.

It is this type of approach which will be a homerun in what respects making our profession known.

Forget imitating the unfortunately overloaded allopathic schools. Let us show the country and the world it is not the MCAT or an A in organic what determines the kind of physician you will be. Let the reform go on!



(for the record I got As in organic and did well on the MCAT, none of which in my opinion measure the true human spirit of success and accomplishment)
 
I guess we all just have to live with the fact that most of us go to DO schools because our stats make us only moderately competitive at MD schools -- something I have learned to accept and live with. Would I sacrifice an MD for a life outside of studying in undergrad? Yes. Will I let this "stigma" bother me? No.
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Well you should let it bother you because it sounds like you just floated through undergrad and did enough to get by. Old habits die hard and I wouldn't want to go to a doctor (m.d. or d.o.) who did just enough in med school to get by.

This type of behavior adds to the problem. No wonder why people think osteopathy is second class! If your not willing to sacrifice, your in the wrong profession.
 
Originally posted by brianjc
Well you should let it bother you because it sounds like you just floated through undergrad and did enough to get by. Old habits die hard and I wouldn't want to go to a doctor (m.d. or d.o.) who did just enough in med school to get by.

This type of behavior adds to the problem. No wonder why people think osteopathy is second class! If your not willing to sacrifice, your in the wrong profession.
Click to expand...

Undergraduate work has absolutely no bearing on on the quality of physicians in the future and little in the performance of someone in medical school. I would think someone else who is interested in osteopathy would have grown out of the allopathic mindset of academics equals everything.

I believe that my broader experiences in life outside of academics will in fact make me a much better physician than someone who spent most of their college years in a book. I know my intellectual abilities and how I can perform in an academic setting well enough to know that I will make it through medical school. My GPA is actually higher than the osteopathic average despite the fact I am "floating through undergrad". I know what I am capable of and don't need a 3.8 to prove it.

DO schools want personable persons, not academic automatons.
 
Originally posted by brianjc
Well you should let it bother you because it sounds like you just floated through undergrad and did enough to get by. Old habits die hard and I wouldn't want to go to a doctor (m.d. or d.o.) who did just enough in med school to get by.

Click to expand...

You have a good point, but I want to add something. I earned my entire BS degree when in the Air Force, which I was a shift worker. Anyway, I've had some instructors become displeased with me b/c I would get an "A+" on a A&P test just b/c I studied only 1-2 hours. I told them I didn't have the time to review the info consistently b/c of my AF responsibilities, etc. When Uncle Sam says jump, you do it. Anyone who spent time in the military knows that we do more than just our regular job, at least if you want to go above and beyond the call of duty.

Point: Although some of us didn't have the luxury of a traditional education, we will/do show the same dedication as we did in our previous careers. Med school is/will be our careers.

:clap:
 
Isn't it annoying that ER has a PA star, but it never mentions DOs? Isn't it annoying that when you say osteopathic medical school, people look at you with a WTF look? Isn't it annoying that DO schools are considered to be back-ups by an overwhelmingly large percentage of pre-meds???

It's not like osteopathic medicine popped up last night, and it's not like there aren't any avenues like pop-culture art to improve the image and awareness.
I guess self-contratulatory counters work for some while others hope for and expect more. I want DOs to say in their Al Pacino voices, "We're coming out, guns blazing!"
 
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