Chronic Pain and Opioids - Impact on atient visit experience

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NOSfan

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Will the hyper-emphasis on 'patient experience' becoming ever tied to compensation, this article seems to confirm clinicians' concerns of such.

Communication about chronic pain and opioids in primary care: impact on patient and physician visit experience

Henry, Stephen G.a,b,*; Bell, Robert A.c,d; Fenton, Joshua J.b,e; Kravitz, Richard L.a,b

PAIN: February 2018 - Volume 159 - Issue 2 - p 371–379
doi: 10.1097/j.pain.0000000000001098

Patients and physicians report that communication about chronic pain and opioids is often challenging, but there is little empirical research on whether patient–physician communication about pain affects patient and physician visit experience. This study video recorded 86 primary care visits involving 49 physicians and 86 patients taking long-term opioids for chronic musculoskeletal pain, systematically coded all pain-related utterances during these visits using a custom-designed coding system, and administered previsit and postvisit questionnaires. Multiple regression was used to identify communication behaviors and patient characteristics associated with patients' ratings of their visit experience, physicians' ratings of visit difficulty, or both. After adjusting for covariates, 2 communication variables—patient–physician disagreement and patient requests for opioid dose increases—were each significantly associated with both worse ratings of patient experience and greater physician-reported visit difficulty. Patient desire for increased pain medicine was also significantly positively associated with both worse ratings of patient experience and greater physician-reported visit difficulty. Greater pain severity and more patient questions were each significantly associated with greater physician-reported visit difficulty, but not with patient experience. The association between patient requests for opioids and patient experience ratings was wholly driven by 2 visits involving intense conflict with patients demanding opioids. Patient–physician communication during visits is associated with patient and physician ratings of visit experience. Training programs focused on imparting communication skills that assist physicians in negotiating disagreements about pain management, including responding to patient requests for more opioids, likely have potential to improve visit experience ratings for both patients and physicians.

Full article attached.
 

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I spend a lot of time analyzing published CMS opioid data as a part of my job. I can assure you that the correlation between panel size ($) and
opioid count isn't random. If an organization is basing pay on patient satisfaction they are tacitly endorsing over-prescribing.
 
I spend a lot of time analyzing published CMS opioid data as a part of my job. I can assure you that the correlation between panel size ($) and
opioid count isn't random. If an organization is basing pay on patient satisfaction they are tacitly endorsing over-prescribing.

Very true. Chronic opioids can totally destroy a patient-physician relationship- once they are weaned or discontinued. What I see with some PCP's- who on average are a lot less cynical than we are- is reluctance to taper or wean or discontinue even in the face of aberrancy because the patient in front of them has come to the same office for 20 years, they've taken care of the person's kids etc. As difficult as these conversations are for us, we enjoy a level of detachment that is not really available at the PCP level. Even if the PCP weans or discontinues they still have to see the patient for non pain related complaints, magnifying the awkwardness.

Easy to see why this can keeps getting kicked down the road. Also, there is an insidious co-dependence that develops between patient and opioid prescriber, especially for patients on high doses with "intractable pain." Tennant/Hurwitz/Webster were the ne plus ultra of this phenomenon but it is rampant at the lower levels.

Doctors willing to prescribe moderate-high dose opioids in this current climate will be sought after. Patients will shamelessly feed into the prescriber's ego to get what they want. The physicians' grandiosity and narcissism will increase proportionally, perpetuating this dangerous cycle.

- ex 61N
 
"we enjoy a level of detachment that is not really available at the PCP level"

That is a key observation. I am a firm believer in dispassionate 'opioid refill clinics' run like a coumadin clinic. You don't go to coumadin clinic
to argue for a dose escalation, and with the right staffing patients can learn that they don't go to the refill clinic to argue for a dose escalation either.
This model has legs for reducing harms and costs:
 
"we enjoy a level of detachment that is not really available at the PCP level"

That is a key observation. I am a firm believer in dispassionate 'opioid refill clinics' run like a coumadin clinic. You don't go to coumadin clinic
to argue for a dose escalation, and with the right staffing patients can learn that they don't go to the refill clinic to argue for a dose escalation either.
This model has legs for reducing harms and costs:


People go to pain clinics for two reasons: Hydrocodone & Hugs.
 
We aren't talking about pain clinics here🙂 We are talking about opioid refill clinics detached from the emotional baggage of the 'compassionate pcp' and
the provider baggage of worrying about how to convert a simlpe refill into an: MRI, UDS, injection, etc.
 
We aren't talking about pain clinics here🙂 We are talking about opioid refill clinics detached from the emotional baggage of the 'compassionate pcp' and
the provider baggage of worrying about how to convert a simlpe refill into an: MRI, UDS, injection, etc.

I get it. It sounds lovely. "Here's your ration of hydrocodone; here's your block of cheese. Next..."
 
We aren't talking about pain clinics here🙂 We are talking about opioid refill clinics detached from the emotional baggage of the 'compassionate pcp' and
the provider baggage of worrying about how to convert a simlpe refill into an: MRI, UDS, injection, etc.

Here's what's foolish about this. It flies in the face of "good medical practice." The point of being a doctor is to care for the patient in their entirety--mind, body, spirit. Why would anyone take the medico-legal risk of prescribing government rationed opioids to a patient that they 1) didn't "know" in a meaningfully professional way; 2) didn't have a longitudinal relationship based upon a history together that involved trialing non-opioid analgesics, non-pharmacological modalities, etc; 3) was isolated from the input of other professionals--behavioral health, addiction, PT, OT, etc.

In some "clockwork orange" version of your universe, a doctor is assigned to staff the "opioid clinic" taking care of patients that she or he have no relationship with or history.
 
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I get it. It sounds lovely. "Here's your ration of hydrocodone; here's your block of cheese. Next..."

True- but you could inject this group of patients q 3 mos, fit with back braces, do quant UDS every visit- they are high risk- and maybe even some compounding creams.

Then it would be an IPM clinic, not a pain clinic.
 
True- but you could inject this group of patients q 3 mos, fit with back braces, do quant UDS every visit- they are high risk- and maybe even some compounding creams.

Then it would be an IPM clinic, not a pain clinic.

ex 61N,

Now you're really showing your Greenhorn ignorance on the topic. No one gets the back brace until they fail stim trials from each manufacturer...
 
"we enjoy a level of detachment that is not really available at the PCP level"

That is a key observation. I am a firm believer in dispassionate 'opioid refill clinics' run like a coumadin clinic. You don't go to coumadin clinic
to argue for a dose escalation, and with the right staffing patients can learn that they don't go to the refill clinic to argue for a dose escalation either.
This model has legs for reducing harms and costs:


This could work.

The question is, staffed by whom?

I assume that Kaiser would have this model already?

Any Kaiser doctors care to chime in?
 
"The association between patient requests for opioids and patient experience ratings was wholly driven by 2 visits involving intense conflict with patients demanding opioids."

See, you can be permissive with opioids, or not prescribe them at all, but safe opioid prescribing is very difficult because you keep seeing people and telling them no, over and over again.
 
because you keep seeing people and telling them no, over and over again.

You have to have personalities in the clinic that don't wilt under conflict, ever.
You also need a strong team - that can't be split by manipulators - and an
echo chamber of consistent policy. All exams are chaperoned to avoid 'he
said I'm an addict, it's all in my head, he's cutting me off, he was rude and
arrogant.' The confabulation and ad hominem attacks are never ending.
 
because you keep seeing people and telling them no, over and over again.

You have to have personalities in the clinic that don't wilt under conflict, ever.
You also need a strong team - that can't be split by manipulators - and an
echo chamber of consistent policy. All exams are chaperoned to avoid 'he
said I'm an addict, it's all in my head, he's cutting me off, he was rude and
arrogant.' The confabulation and ad hominem attacks are never ending.

Sounds like a recipe for physician burnout and "blaming the clinician" for being "weak-willed." Close your eyes and imagine that was really your job: No one ever telling you "I got 95% improvement from that injection," or "Those exercises really helped." or "Thanks, I can sleep better with that new med." Just conflict and strife day-in and day-out.

Welcome to the "Opioid Refill Clinic."

Bad systems devour good people.

Physician Burnout: It Just Keeps Getting Worse
 
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"we enjoy a level of detachment that is not really available at the PCP level"

That is a key observation. I am a firm believer in dispassionate 'opioid refill clinics' run like a coumadin clinic.

"Dispassionate" or "Detached" doesn't really work for private practice. Of any specialty.

And, for proponents of socialized healthcare, the model doesn't hit #3 of the triple-aim (patient experience).

While this could definitely achieve the stated goals, it's probably best suited to FQHCs, large health systems or university.
 
Sounds like a recipe for physician burnout and "blaming the clinician" for be "weak-willed." Close your eyes and imagine that was really your job: No ever telling you "I got 95% improvement from that injection," or "Those exercises really helped." or "Thanks, I can sleep better with that new med." Just conflict and strife day-in and day-out.

Welcome to the "Opioid Refill Clinic."

Bad systems devour good people.

Physician Burnout: It Just Keeps Getting Worse

True but somehow addiction specialists (and even psychiatrists) have succeeded in this model. Their incentives and metrics are completely different but I think that’s where non IPM needs to go
 
Sounds like a recipe for physician burnout and "blaming the clinician" for be "weak-willed." Close your eyes and imagine that was really your job: No ever telling you "I got 95% improvement from that injection," or "Those exercises really helped." or "Thanks, I can sleep better with that new med." Just conflict and strife day-in and day-out.

Welcome to the "Opioid Refill Clinic."

Bad systems devour good people.

Physician Burnout: It Just Keeps Getting Worse

I tell people that opioids aren't indicated, and I never see them again. They find somebody else. So telling people no over and over again is never a problem for me. Once is all it takes.

The PCP does not have this luxury unfortunately, since they continue to see these patients for a myriad of non pain related issues. Hence the need for us to help them out, provide them with some top cover.

"The pain specialist said opioids aren't indicated." End of story. Or, "the pain specialist is weaning you down and managing your medications more safely and appropriately. I fully support what he is doing and you need to listen to what he says."

There is a good synergy that can be developed between primary care and pain MD's. Not the predatory symbiosis that exists with ortho spine block shops where they are rotating the patient to you for a series of "tune up" shots before the inevitable
3 level fusion --> disability ---> failed SCS ---> pump implant.

True, you may initially not get as many procedure referrals from PCP's, but this is mostly b/c they aren't even aware of what procedures can do and when they are indicated. If you develop a good relationship and help them out, the procedures will come to you instead of going to ortho or NSGY first, and then you get to be the gatekeeper instead of playing Oliver to the Ortho NP's Mr. Strawberry- "please sir may I have another series of 3 TFESI?"

Anyways, I feel a lot less burnt out than some on a daily basis because I try to be blunt and transparent with patients. It is easier to just have the difficult convo and pull off the bandaid rather than drown in a morass of equivocation, bargaining, avoidance etc.

- ex 61N
 
I LOVE my job and the people who I work with, and the folks it has brought me in touch with. Good people who remember the adage of doing well by doing good.
 
I tell people that opioids aren't indicated, and I never see them again. They find somebody else. So telling people no over and over again is never a problem for me. Once is all it takes.

The PCP does not have this luxury unfortunately, since they continue to see these patients for a myriad of non pain related issues. Hence the need for us to help them out, provide them with some top cover.

Anyways, I feel a lot less burnt out than some on a daily basis because I try to be blunt and transparent with patients. It is easier to just have the difficult convo and pull off the bandaid rather than drown in a morass of equivocation, bargaining, avoidance etc.

There was a post in another thread about "the hard-ass approach", and whether that's best.

From your other posts, I got the impression that you were a suck for dumps, and were all for long, drawn-out forced tapers. Conflict and Strife all-day, every-day.

Question: Are specialists deserving of our help as well? or only PCPs? Which specialties/sub-specialties? Urology (chronic kidney stones)? Gen-Surg? Ortho-Trauma?
Neurology (Migraine)? IM subspecialists? Rheum (Fibromyalgia)?
 
True but somehow addiction specialists (and even psychiatrists) have succeeded in this model.

If you remember the difference, as stated by others on the forum, not even addiction psychiatrists want to treat these patients, because many of them are in denial about their addiction (unwilling participants).
 
If you remember the difference, as stated by others on the forum, not even addiction psychiatrists want to treat these patients, because many of them are in denial about their addiction (unwilling participants).

From what I’ve seen in addiction practices around me, if addicts are unwilling or in denial they offer resources and let them come back if and when they are ready. That’s the most you can do unless they are willing, no long term follow up or prescribing. Many just circle the drain. Never work harder than the patient is willing to work for themselves
 
In essence, certain PP's function as "opioid refill clinics." The difference is the refills are contingent on the patient getting injections every so often. Plenty of strife and conflict to be had in those practices when the midlevel tries to wean (do they ever do that?) or there is an aberrant UDS but the patient is scheduled for stim trial next week...

One of my best friends is a PA at one such practice. 99.5% of the patients are on opioids. This is a "reputable" national chain practice that has bought up many local offices. When the patients violate their contracts or pop hot on UDS the IPM doc looks through their record to see how many injections they've gotten in the last year before deciding whether to discharge. I'm not making this up.

- ex 61N

Pills, Pins and Piss are the ABC’s of pain medicine.
 
61 this sounds good. You need to give presentations to folks in your system about the clinic. It is a god send and
ethical, thoughtful pcp's and admin will understand the value.

One thing that would be real nice would be recurring class on the harms of opioids & 'nociplastic'
pain that patients have to attend either prior to, or concurrent, with their clinic visit. If you can
get a local insurer to pay for the class in perpetuity it would be helpful.

Also, my experience has been that early on there will be pent up demand for your clinic and the
first cohort probably should be those on very high doses. You might get your PMDP administrator
to give you an estimate on how many pt's on >240MED are in your catchment area. Some of those
folks will require an x-waiver. In my 1st 12mo of a clinic like this I dx'ed OUD in 19% of ~900 pts.
In a similar clinic in Portland they estimated the 1st year incidence of OUD to be 40% of 2500 pts.
If you are in an area of the country hard hit by the epidemic you will likely have difficulty with the
caps - 30 - on PA's & NPs. You can apply for an emergency increase or a 'qualified practice setting'
extension.

Other useful folks to have onboard in such a clinic are CADCs and psychiatric NPs.
 
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61 this sounds good. You need to give presentations to folks in your system about the clinic. It is a god send and
ethical, thoughtful pcp's and admin will understand the value.

One thing that would be real nice would be recurring class on the harms of opioids & 'nociplastic'
pain that patients have to attend either prior to, or concurrent, with their clinic visit. If you can
get a local insurer to pay for the class in perpetuity it would be helpful.

Also, my experience has been that early on there will be pent up demand for your clinic and the
first cohort probably should be those on very high doses. You might get your PMDP administrator
to give you an estimate on how many pt's on >240MED are in your catchment area. Some of those
folks will require an x-waiver. In my 1st 12mo of a clinic like this I dx'ed OUD in 19% of ~900 pts.
In a similar clinic in Portland they estimated the 1st year incidence of OUD to be 40% of 2500 pts.
If you are in an area of the country hard hit by the epidemic you will likely have difficulty with the
caps - 30 - on PA's & NPs. You can apply for an emergency increase or a 'qualified practice setting'
extension.

Other useful folks to have onboard in such a clinic are CADCs and psychiatric NPs.

Yes- the key part is educating PCP's about opioids. Most of the ones in my health system didn't create this mess but inherited it. Still, there are some cowboys who practice like it is 2002.

Right now my partner and I are taking anyone on less than ~ 200 MME from PCP's and weaning them. The > 200 MME group is the problem. Most of these people would do better with a transition to buprenorphine rather than a hopeless, drawn out wean. Most of them probably meet criteria for OUD. Two problems I have 1) my health system requires "break glass" records for patients being tx'd for OUD - which are not available in my pain medicine clinic 2) Insanely, my health system currently limits the prescribing of suboxone for OUD to one specialty clinic which is run by Addiction. Even though I have an x waiver as do several PCP's.

I do my best every day but my system is way behind the times. Yet it is a battle worth fighting, I think. And I can see incremental progress being made.

Deprescribing clinics are great and I think a "deprescribing" mindset is mandatory if you are practicing **ethical** pain medicine. My dilemma is that I am an anesthesia based interventional pain guy. I probably do 20-25 procedures a week on select candidates, 90% of whom are not on opioids. I do my own implants and operate 1-2 times per month. I don't put in new non-cancer pumps but I replace some of the micro dose legacy ones in the system and explant the rest (truly the most rewarding).

The deluge from primary care is starting to crowd out the reasonable interventional referrals which are out there for my partner and I. I worry about hiring a mid-level because I have seen firsthand how easily they turn into opioid Pez dispensers unless there is a VERY strict supervision agreement in place. What would be best is paying a PCP with addiction training MGMA 50% for IPM (btw much more than my salary...) and let him run the show, but this type is hard to find and the powers that be don't want to pony up the $$$

When I meet with health system leaders I am emphatic that we have a big problem but ultimately the solution- as much of a Godsend as they may be- is not deprescribing clinics. People from all specialties need to 1) stop starting opioids for CNP and 2) taper their own patients. So I am starting to shift a lot of my focus in that direction.

Ultimately we need to dam this waterfall at the source, not create a bigger bucket downstream

- ex 61N
 
Yes- the key part is educating PCP's about opioids. Most of the ones in my health system didn't create this mess but inherited it. Still, there are some cowboys who practice like it is 2002.

Right now my partner and I are taking anyone on less than ~ 200 MME from PCP's and weaning them. The > 200 MME group is the problem. Most of these people would do better with a transition to buprenorphine rather than a hopeless, drawn out wean. Most of them probably meet criteria for OUD. Two problems I have 1) my health system requires "break glass" records for patients being tx'd for OUD - which are not available in my pain medicine clinic 2) Insanely, my health system currently limits the prescribing of suboxone for OUD to one specialty clinic which is run by Addiction. Even though I have an x waiver as do several PCP's.

I do my best every day but my system is way behind the times. Yet it is a battle worth fighting, I think. And I can see incremental progress being made.

Deprescribing clinics are great and I think a "deprescribing" mindset is mandatory if you are practicing **ethical** pain medicine. My dilemma is that I am an anesthesia based interventional pain guy. I probably do 20-25 procedures a week on select candidates, 90% of whom are not on opioids. I do my own implants and operate 1-2 times per month. I don't put in new non-cancer pumps but I replace some of the micro dose legacy ones in the system and explant the rest (truly the most rewarding).

The deluge from primary care is starting to crowd out the reasonable interventional referrals which are out there for my partner and I. I worry about hiring a mid-level because I have seen firsthand how easily they turn into opioid Pez dispensers unless there is a VERY strict supervision agreement in place. What would be best is paying a PCP with addiction training MGMA 50% for IPM (btw much more than my salary...) and let him run the show, but this type is hard to find and the powers that be don't want to pony up the $$$

When I meet with health system leaders I am emphatic that we have a big problem but ultimately the solution- as much of a Godsend as they may be- is not deprescribing clinics. People from all specialties need to 1) stop starting opioids for CNP and 2) taper their own patients. So I am starting to shift a lot of my focus in that direction.

Ultimately we need to dam this waterfall at the source, not create a bigger bucket downstream

- ex 61N
Keep fighting the good fight.
 
People go to pain clinics for two reasons: Hydrocodone & Hugs.

The look on a patient's face when they get to pain management and hear that they are going to be treated with cortisone injections, Euflexxa or sx and not pain meds. 😱😵:bigtears:
 
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