Class of 2021 - how's your job search going?

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cyanide12345678

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Now that another 3000 graduates are entering the market and probably have started job hunting.

How's that going for you guys?

Are we officially at a point where some new grads aren't able to find jobs at all?

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I've been looking in the NYC metro area (approx 2 hour radius), and have not been able to find anything despite looking several months now. I know this has always been a rough market, but I'm tied to the area for the next few years. It's pretty demotivating. Everyone in my class looking in metro areas has been having a rough time.
 
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I've been looking in the NYC metro area (approx 2 hour radius), and have not been able to find anything despite looking several months now. I know this has always been a rough market, but I'm tied to the area for the next few years. It's pretty demotivating. Everyone in my class looking in metro areas has been having a rough time.

Med students beware. No better warning than people struggling to even find jobs.

Good luck radkat. I hope you find something.
 
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In before the comments "It's just because COVID, don't worry it'll bounce back!"
 
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In before the comments "It's just because COVID, don't worry it'll bounce back!"

Volumes are back to 90 or so percent of pre covid. I don't know why everyone is in denial.

Let's say there is enough of a bounce to accommodate this class, what about the next 3000 grads?

I'm absolutely certain this class year will struggle immensely with job hunting.
 
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Where are you getting the 3000+ number from? the 2020 NRMP report shows number of PGY1 positions ~2700.
 
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Where are you getting the 3000+ number from? the 2020 NRMP report shows number of PGY1 positions ~2700.


I stand corrected, guess it will be another 2-3 years when we reach that 3000 number. But sure...2700. let's go with that.
 
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I'm connected with a residency in the northeast. One resident has found a job with an SDG that has a multi-year partnership and paying significantly less than $200/hour. The rest are jobless right now. By comparison, one of my best friends is in academic anesthesia in the same region. His residents have had their pick of jobs with respect to both region and job type (academic, private, corporate, hospital-employed, etc.).
 
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Of our grads who have work, most are cobbling together a couple of part time IC gigs, or going for fellowship.

We’ve got a few people who live in South Florida but commute to the Midwest for work.

What’s interesting is that people I know in other fields are also having a hard time. I’ve got colleagues from gen surg, optho, and neurosurg who are also struggling to find jobs in the metro areas. Although I imagine their fields will bounce back more in the next couple years.
 
Of our grads who have work, most are cobbling together a couple of part time IC gigs, or going for fellowship.

We’ve got a few people who live in South Florida but commute to the Midwest for work.

What’s interesting is that people I know in other fields are also having a hard time. I’ve got colleagues from gen surg, optho, and neurosurg who are also struggling to find jobs in the metro areas. Although I imagine their fields will bounce back more in the next couple years.
While EM is undoubtedly in crisis right now, we also do seem to bitch more than other fields. The peds board of SDN largely is ignoring the job fallout and they are arguably the only specialty that got hit harder than us.
 
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We've got about 11-12 hospitals in the greater area of my city. All of them are staffed by CMGs. I recently took a gig at the largest TH hospital in my area and am super happy with the move so far but also feel that I got kind of lucky. The compensation is currently about ~267/hr based on last years data. Scribes come out of our own pocket at 15/hr. You are not forced to use them. the $267/hr would become $252/hr after the scribe costs are subtracted. I love the current group but the interesting thing is that they are all younger and fresh out of residency and a large portion of them are from the NE. Most of them have no real ties to the city or area and they pretty much transplanted from across the US for the job. In years past, I really rarely came across such a large group of docs that went out of their way to migrate to our "second tier" southern city. Currently, there are not that many jobs available and we have seen a big push/trend by the hospitals in this area to have ABEM bylaw requirements for the ED. Currently, 3 hospitals have made the move and about to be a 4th and 5th shortly after that. When I talk with some of my EM (IM/FM trained) friends in the area there seems to be a sense of panic as most are afraid that they'll be pushed out and lose their jobs to ABEM docs. That's already started happening and currently I'm seeing ABEM docs taking jobs where IM/FM docs have been working for 20-30 years and people are doing a sort of round robin dance in my city where the ABEM doc takes the spot d/t the new hospital bylaw requirements and the non ABEM doc takes the new guy's "old job". How crazy is that? It's a very strange time and I anticipate that the IM/FM trained crowds are going to be pushed out first which will make room for many of the upcoming BE docs graduating residency. I suspect that compensation will continue to slowly trend down but do not expect it to drop below $200/hr in my region. Interestingly, anecdotal experience seems to indicate that the newly graduated crowd are satisfied with lower compensation. I think that's probably a combination of being fresh out of residency and simply happy to be making six figures combined with no real memory or experience of how high hourly rates were for some of us working in years past. Blissful ignorance, if you will. In the grand scheme of things, I'm actually pretty happy with my current compensation given our grim climate at the moment. I never thought I'd ever have to say this...but I'm actually just happy to have a decent job at the moment. That's a far cry from the position most of us were in years past where the world was our oyster and job opportunities felt limitless.
 
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I disagree with the sentiment that this is not related to covid. ED's have lost a lot of money. Hospitals lost a lot of money. Yes volumes are coming back up in many areas. They aren't in many others. And even if they are "back up 90%" that's still 10% lower than normal, on top of tons of financial losses from previously. COVID killed this job market. More grads certainly didn't help, but I don't think its the determining factor of what happened. I'm convinced it will rebound, but not as quickly as volumes because hospitals lost a ton of money. Hiring freezes will persist for awhile I'd imagine in some systems.
 
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We've got about 11-12 hospitals in the greater area of my city. All of them are staffed by CMGs. I recently took a gig at the largest TH hospital in my area and am super happy with the move so far but also feel that I got kind of lucky. The compensation is currently about ~267/hr based on last years data. Scribes come out of our own pocket at 15/hr. You are not forced to use them. the $267/hr would become $252/hr after the scribe costs are subtracted. I love the current group but the interesting thing is that they are all younger and fresh out of residency and a large portion of them are from the NE. Most of them have no real ties to the city or area and they pretty much transplanted from across the US for the job. In years past, I really rarely came across such a large group of docs that went out of their way to migrate to our "second tier" southern city. Currently, there are not that many jobs available and we have seen a big push/trend by the hospitals in this area to have ABEM bylaw requirements for the ED. Currently, 3 hospitals have made the move and about to be a 4th and 5th shortly after that. When I talk with some of my EM (IM/FM trained) friends in the area there seems to be a sense of panic as most are afraid that they'll be pushed out and lose their jobs to ABEM docs. That's already started happening and currently I'm seeing ABEM docs taking jobs where IM/FM docs have been working for 20-30 years and people are doing a sort of round robin dance in my city where the ABEM doc takes the spot d/t the new hospital bylaw requirements and the non ABEM doc takes the new guy's "old job". How crazy is that? It's a very strange time and I anticipate that the IM/FM trained crowds are going to be pushed out first which will make room for many of the upcoming BE docs graduating residency. I suspect that compensation will continue to slowly trend down but do not expect it to drop below $200/hr in my region. Interestingly, anecdotal experience seems to indicate that the newly graduated crowd are satisfied with lower compensation. I think that's probably a combination of being fresh out of residency and simply happy to be making six figures combined with no real memory or experience of how high hourly rates were for some of us working in years past. Blissful ignorance, if you will. In the grand scheme of things, I'm actually pretty happy with my current compensation given our grim climate at the moment. I never thought I'd ever have to say this...but I'm actually just happy to have a decent job at the moment. That's a far cry from the position most of us were in years past where the world was our oyster and job opportunities felt limitless.

I disagree with the sentiment that this is not related to covid. ED's have lost a lot of money. Hospitals lost a lot of money. Yes volumes are coming back up in many areas. They aren't in many others. And even if they are "back up 90%" that's still 10% lower than normal, on top of tons of financial losses from previously. COVID killed this job market. More grads certainly didn't help, but I don't think its the determining factor of what happened. I'm convinced it will rebound, but not as quickly as volumes because hospitals lost a ton of money. Hiring freezes will persist for awhile I'd imagine in some systems.
Man I hope you all are right. I’ve never really had my heart set on the big salary - making 280-300k would be fine depending on the work environment. That’s what I’ve always envisioned before even picking EM.

What has been really shocking and scary for my class is watching people be unable to find any job, at any rate in the area. Because then when a job does come along you’re going to be so desperate to take it the work conditions could become very crappy very fast.
 
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To my understanding, back at my alma mater less than 50% of the graduating class has been able to secure employment. Somewhat scary being 6 months out.

To frame, my class was 100% secured by this time. Not sure how much of the new reality is 2/2 COVID vs EM trends. Likely a bit of both.

I can tell you the perspective from my field, palliative medicine job market was down BIG from covid (primarily due to hospitals on hiring freezes). This is bouncing back gradually as the large institutions are now opening back up it seems RE hiring... but still not back to where it was maybe ~2 years ago... we can all home EM does a similar bounce.
 
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Man I hope you all are right. I’ve never really had my heart set on the big salary - making 280-300k would be fine depending on the work environment. That’s what I’ve always envisioned before even picking EM.

What has been really shocking and scary for my class is watching people be unable to find any job, at any rate in the area. Because then when a job does come along you’re going to be so desperate to take it the work conditions could become very crappy very fast.

FL is the epicenter of the destruction of EM. Your state is what is happening to the rest of the country. People had difficulty finding jobs there two years ago, not surprised they can't find anything now.
 
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FL is the epicenter of the destruction of EM. Your state is what is happening to the rest of the country. People had difficulty finding jobs there two years ago, not surprised they can't find anything now.
Yea it’s a real bummer. Those of us that grew up here tend to have a special bond with Florida making it tough to leave. It’s like a redneck California.

But the writing is on the wall - there’s 18 residencies, the majority of which are for profit and jammed full of unqualified IMGs from 3rd world countries who will happily work for pennies on the dollar to have their J1 certified.

Luckily I have no debt and am married to a (resident) surgeon. I love practicing EM, but if EM is dead when I graduate I’ll find something else to do.
 
Yea it’s a real bummer. Those of us that grew up here tend to have a special bond with Florida making it tough to leave. It’s like a redneck California.

But the writing is on the wall - there’s 18 residencies, the majority of which are for profit and jammed full of unqualified IMGs from 3rd world countries who will happily work for pennies on the dollar to have their J1 certified.

Luckily I have no debt and am married to a (resident) surgeon. I love practicing EM, but if EM is dead when I graduate I’ll find something else to do.
My god the racism is strong with this one. Perhaps you spent too much time in Florida.
 
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Tripping all over yourself on your race to be offended.
There's not a *racist* word in that.
“Unqualified imgs from 3rd world countries” ?
Looking at racism in the rear view mirror with that statement
 
“Unqualified imgs from 3rd world countries” ?
Looking at racism in the rear view mirror with that statement

Notice how race/ethnicity is not mentioned at all?
Notice how you injected it into the statement?
Notice how the only one dragging race/ethnicity into this is... is you.
 
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Notice how race/ethnicity is not mentioned at all?
Notice how you injected it into the statement?
Notice how the only one dragging race/ethnicity into this is... is you.

unprofessional and unbecoming from a physician’s mouth.
His inference and intent were obvious to even the casual observer unless they are being deliberately obtuse.
Take your gaslighting elsewhere.
 
unprofessional and unbecoming from a physician’s mouth.
His inference and intent were obvious to even the casual observer unless they are being deliberately obtuse.
Take your gaslighting elsewhere.
So then please tell the group, what race was he speaking against?
 
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I wrote this in another thread but, graduating 2021, I did find a job in a democratic group in a smaller area of the midwest (100k or so people, pretty LCOL) with decent pay (420k+ after one year, but this includes all benefits and is based off ~1600 hours/year) with basically zero turnover and high job satisfaction. But, it is far from where we were initially hoping to end up (mountain west or PNW closer to family), and we've just kinda decided to choose to be happy there. It really does seem like a nice spot, just without easy access to our family. However at this point, and seeing the struggle of many this year, I'm just happy to have it. I want to make my money, pay off debts, and reach financial independence ASAP so that if EM continues like this I'm not dependent on my job.
 
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And to add some context, I'd say about half our class has jobs lined up with the rest of them with some solid leads. However, a couple of those are sketchy jobs (in my opinion) with basically unverified pay rates based 100% off RVU. A couple other people are basically trying to cobble together some FSED and random locums work until they find something more solid. But last year's class at this point was near 100% signed, and the couple that weren't, well, there was a reason, and even they got decent jobs in January.
 
Perhaps xenophobia is a better term

That street runs both ways, homeboy.
You don't see us up and kicking it in Germany and saying: "Gonna take advantage of this system here that was set up to educate German grads, paid for by German taxpayers, while I piss off a lot of Germans."

It's not xenophobia. It's the way "it works".
 
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Perhaps xenophobia is a better term
Or perhaps its that some IMGs actually ARE unqualified (hence why that adjective was included in the original post) and if we expand our residency slots enough we absolutely will get a decrease in quality.
 
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unprofessional and unbecoming from a physician’s mouth.
His inference and intent were obvious to even the casual observer unless they are being deliberately obtuse.
Take your gaslighting elsewhere.
I’m sorry you felt that my statement was offensive. I in no way intended for it to have any racial or ethnic sentiment. Health disparities and addressing systemic racism is something I care deeply about and have spent a good chunk of my life doing.

You’ve chosen to take the least generous interpretation of my thoughts on a complex issue.

But the villain in this story is the private equity backed companies which prey on people’s desperation to leave their Home Counties for a profit, and then hold them in indentured servitude in the US.

Edit: while often providing substandard training to boot.
 
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I wrote this in another thread but, graduating 2021, I did find a job in a democratic group in a smaller area of the midwest (100k or so people, pretty LCOL) with decent pay (420k+ after one year, but this includes all benefits and is based off ~1600 hours/year) with basically zero turnover and high job satisfaction. But, it is far from where we were initially hoping to end up (mountain west or PNW closer to family), and we've just kinda decided to choose to be happy there. It really does seem like a nice spot, just without easy access to our family. However at this point, and seeing the struggle of many this year, I'm just happy to have it. I want to make my money, pay off debts, and reach financial independence ASAP so that if EM continues like this I'm not dependent on my job.
Curious - how’d you find this job? Networking? Connection from residency? Recruiter/job site?

I feel like whenever I look on EDPhysician there’s like 4 openings and 3 of them are in towns so far off the grid google flights can’t even figure out how to get there.
 
Or perhaps its that some IMGs actually ARE unqualified (hence why that adjective was included in the original post) and if we expand our residency slots enough we absolutely will get a decrease in quality.
More so than under-qualified amg’s?
 
Perhaps xenophobia is a better term
It’s about economics and qualifications...IMGs trained in non-US institutions within a poorer country are factually less likely to be as good as US MD/DO...and they are more willing to fill US jobs at lower pay rates than US grads...nothing about xenophobia or racism
 
More so than under-qualified amg’s?
We don't know, that's kind of the point. With a US graduate, you usually know exactly what you're getting.

That said, I think the unqualified IMGs will get more spots once all the AMGs have. We're almost there: This March there were 28,000 US MD Seniors who entered the match. There were 10,000 US DO Seniors so 38k people total. Total PGY-1 spots totaled 35,000.
 
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Half of my class has jobs. 2/3 of the rest are only looking in desirable areas and the last 1/3 are dragging their feet
 
Thankfully my entire class is currently employed. Looked rough for a while, and most of us didn't get the ideal job we were looking for.

Looking back to where our seniors were 2-3 years back, things are changed and I don't forsee them going back to how they were.

Where are you getting the 3000+ number from? the 2020 NRMP report shows number of PGY1 positions ~2700.
You're forgeting all the people entering the job market from previous years who went the fellowship route, + the people who lost their jobs looking for new positions.

In total it probably is around 3000 people searching for full time EM work nationwide. ****ty odds.
 
I'm connected with a residency in the northeast. One resident has found a job with an SDG that has a multi-year partnership and paying significantly less than $200/hour. The rest are jobless right now. By comparison, one of my best friends is in academic anesthesia in the same region. His residents have had their pick of jobs with respect to both region and job type (academic, private, corporate, hospital-employed, etc.).
I don't know if anesthesia is all that great though, at least from what I hear on the anesthesia forum?
 
My god the racism is strong with this one. Perhaps you spent too much time in Florida.
I'm an immigrant (not an IMG) and he isn't wrong lol.

There's a reason why if you go around the **** tier HHC hospitals in NYC they're all filled with IMGs.


Reality is unpleasant but it's still reality.
 
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Man I hope you all are right. I’ve never really had my heart set on the big salary - making 280-300k would be fine depending on the work environment. That’s what I’ve always envisioned before even picking EM.

What has been really shocking and scary for my class is watching people be unable to find any job, at any rate in the area. Because then when a job does come along you’re going to be so desperate to take it the work conditions could become very crappy very fast.
From what I've read on the FM forum, it sounds like it's common for primary care to make $280-300k working ~36 hours a week, Mon-Thurs, regular hours, no nights, no weekends, no holidays, no or very little call (unless you want). And apparently there are PCP jobs almost everywhere in the country. See this thread for example:

 
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I don't know if anesthesia is all that great though, at least from what I hear on the anesthesia forum?

Both anesthesia and EM are not in the best positions, both largely tied to hospitals. However, anesthesia doesn't seem to be producing an oversupply of residents like we are. There still seem to be a decent amount of physician owned groups, too. Perhaps those days are numbered, though. Also, I'd take anesthesia's fellowship options as escape hatches to better job prospects through 1-year fellowships (ICU, Peds, Cardiac, Pain) than EM's (US, EMS, Sports Med, Wilderness, International, HPM, Admin, PEM - 2 years, Tox - 2 years, ICU - 2 years).
 
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Curious - how’d you find this job? Networking? Connection from residency? Recruiter/job site?

I feel like whenever I look on EDPhysician there’s like 4 openings and 3 of them are in towns so far off the grid google flights can’t even figure out how to get there.

Honestly, it was through Facebook group. Right place, right time. Saw a post from a doc that alluded to a group, looked into it, interviewed, and it just worked out. Zero connection to the area.
 
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Thankfully my entire class is currently employed. Looked rough for a while, and most of us didn't get the ideal job we were looking for.

Looking back to where our seniors were 2-3 years back, things are changed and I don't forsee them going back to how they were.


You're forgeting all the people entering the job market from previous years who went the fellowship route, + the people who lost their jobs looking for new positions.

In total it probably is around 3000 people searching for full time EM work nationwide. ****ty odds.

What's the geographic spread of these jobs? I was looking pretty hard and had 2 solid leads, one of which solidified first, but otherwise our class has not signed. Very little availability in the Southwest and Southeast from the companies/hospitals I spoke with.
 
What's the geographic spread of these jobs? I was looking pretty hard and had 2 solid leads, one of which solidified first, but otherwise our class has not signed. Very little availability in the Southwest and Southeast from the companies/hospitals I spoke with.
Spread is pretty wide. We're in the NE however most people are transplants going back to where they grew up. About ¼ staying local, ¼ doing fellowship.
 
From what I've read on the FM forum, it sounds like it's common for primary care to make $280-300k working ~36 hours a week, Mon-Thurs, regular hours, no nights, no weekends, no holidays, no or very little call (unless you want). And apparently there are PCP jobs almost everywhere in the country. See this thread for example:


Agreed. That's what we're seeing for my wife as well right now. Mostly after productivity ramps and and she has a patient base. But she would make 275k if she generates 4600 wRVUs which is very easy to do working 36 hours a week, 4 days a week. The guaranteed income for the first couple of years that we are seeing is somewhat less while your practice ramps up
 
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Agreed. That's what we're seeing for my wife as well right now. Mostly after productivity ramps and and she has a patient base. But she would make 275k if she generates 4600 wRVUs which is very easy to do working 36 hours a week, 4 days a week. The guaranteed income for the first couple of years that we are seeing is somewhat less while your practice ramps up
It can be even better for certain nonprocedural subspecialties of IM.

From firsthand knowledge, in allergy it is common to see $70/wRVU, typically >300K income in a hospital system employed position.

32 hour of clinic a week, 4 days a week, no weekends, no holidays, no nights obviously, never any emergency consults.

not bad for 3 yr IM and 2 yr fellowship.
 
But the writing is on the wall - there’s 18 residencies, the majority of which are for profit and jammed full of unqualified IMGs from 3rd world countries who will happily work for pennies on the dollar to have their J1 certified.

I'm an immigrant (not an IMG) and he isn't wrong lol.

There's a reason why if you go around the **** tier HHC hospitals in NYC they're all filled with IMGs.


Reality is unpleasant but it's still reality.
Because the hospitals are malignant and IMGs hoping to come here take whatever they can get?

The next question is "why don't good hospitals take IMGs, then?" I would say that's due to a variety of factors (including visa issues), but largely likely due to optics. IMGs have been matching at the malignant hospitals for so long that having an IMG at a program makes people have some assumptions about the program itself. Programs in turn want to avoid these perceptions. I would say this is similar to the reason why some hoity-toity residency programs have no DOs when the top DO grads are just as good as the top MD grads. After a particular interview back when applying for residency, one of my co-interviewees said something along the lines of "that program seemed amazing, but it's kind of concerning that they have so many DOs". That interaction always stuck with me in regards to how some people evaluate programs at a glance.

Am I saying these HCA residencies are not bad? Absolutely not--they likely have no business educating residents and will likely do a disservice to these trainees and their future patients. But I do think it's unfair to indiscriminately say that "IMGs from 3rd world countries" are by definition "unqualified" when the ones who come here often have a higher bar to clear than some unqualified American grads.

I'm sure if you filled these HCA residencies with American grads the programs would still be bad and they would still turn those residents into poorly-trained emergency physicians.
 
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Because the hospitals are malignant and IMGs hoping to come here take whatever they can get?

The next question is "why don't good hospitals take IMGs, then?" I would say that's due to a variety of factors (including visa issues), but largely likely due to optics. IMGs have been matching at the malignant hospitals for so long that having an IMG at a program makes people have some assumptions about the program itself. Programs in turn want to avoid these perceptions. I would say this is similar to the reason why some hoity-toity residency programs have no DOs when the top DO grads are just as good as the top MD grads. After a particular interview back when applying for residency, one of my co-interviewees said something along the lines of "that program seemed amazing, but it's kind of concerning that they have so many DOs". That interaction always stuck with me in regards to how some people evaluate programs at a glance.

Am I saying these HCA residencies are not bad? Absolutely not--they likely have no business educating residents and will likely do a disservice to these trainees and their future patients. But I do think it's unfair to indiscriminately say that "IMGs from 3rd world countries" are by definition "unqualified" when the ones who come here often have a higher bar to clear than some unqualified American grads.

I'm sure if you filled these HCA residencies with American grads the programs would still be bad and they would turn those grads into bad emergency physicians.

Yes, stating IMGs are unqualified essentially shows a lot of ignorance.

I'm not an IMG myself, i went to med school in Dallas. But i was in b Pakistan until highschool. Which means i have a lot of IMG friends that are in US training programs.

Almost every single one of them has 240/240+ scores in their usmles if not 250+ or more. It is almost impossible to get in without that bare minimum score. It is very common to see some of them with 270+ usmle scores still only get 8-10 interviews after applying to 120+ programs. Two of my 270+ high school friends who likely would have been considered for the best residency spots in the country if they were AMGs, were accepted to Buffalo and Detroit, not the worst, but definitely not the most desirable places. And those guys are absolutely brilliant.

One friend of mine 256/244 in his usmles got accepted on THE THIRD ATTEMPT. How many AMGs do you know with those scores that don't find anything after applying to 100 plus spots? He's now at Omaha.

My IMG wife is hands down considered the best resident of her class, she's chief resident now. Her AMG co residents have at least 30 points less than her on the usmle, and their lacking medical knowledge is very obvious.

My wife's first cousin IMG 270/270+ is probably the smartest person i know. She was the number one grad at agha Khan hospital for her year, which is the equivalent of being number one from Harvard med school essentially. She was also considered the best resident at the Cleveland clinic, and was chief there.

The point is.... IMGs have several hurdles to cross, have to have better scores than their AMG counterparts to be able to compete with them. And they do. Eventually the ones that make it, are very smart and hard-working people. These crap new York residency places offer strong IMG candidates pre-match offers. They know they are malignant, so they pick very good candidates, offer them a pre Match position. It's very hard to say no to a guaranteed residency spot, even if at a malignant place. My sister, another IMG, went to one of these malignant places too 12-15 years ago, NY presbytarian i think, her scores were in the 99th percentile as well. She had 2 pre match offers.

the point is, these imgs will likely not be the best communicators, not have the best English speaking skills, so they might not impress you in a 15 minute conversation, but rest assured they are probably very hard working, and the cream of the crop to successfully get a US residency. It's so hard to get one as an img.

And just so you know... Getting into med school in the US is ridiculously easy. Try getting into a government med school in Pakistan. 2500 spots in total with 100,000 candidates taking the entry test.
 
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Yes, stating IMGs are unqualified essentially shows a lot of ignorance.

I'm not an IMG myself, i went to med school in Dallas. But i was in b Pakistan until highschool. Which means i have a lot of IMG friends that are in US training programs.

Almost every single one of them has 240/240+ scores in their usmles if not 250+ or more. It is almost impossible to get in without that bare minimum score. It is very common to see some of them with 270+ usmle scores still only get 8-10 interviews after applying to 120+ programs. Two of my 270+ high school friends who likely would have been considered for the best residency spots in the country if they were AMGs, were accepted to Buffalo and Detroit, not the worst, but definitely not the most desirable places. And those guys are absolutely brilliant.

One friend of mine 256/244 in his usmles got accepted on THE THIRD ATTEMPT. How many AMGs do you know with those scores that don't find anything after applying to 100 plus spots? He's now at Omaha.

My IMG wife is hands down considered the best resident of her class, she's chief resident now. Her AMG co residents have at least 30 points less than her on the usmle, and their lacking medical knowledge is very obvious.

My wife's first cousin IMG 270/270+ is probably the smartest person i know. She was the number one grad at agha Khan hospital for her year, which is the equivalent of being number one from Harvard med school essentially. She was also considered the best resident at the Cleveland clinic, and was chief there.

The point is.... IMGs have several hurdles to cross, have to have better scores than their AMG counterparts to be able to compete with them. And they do. Eventually the ones that make it, are very smart and hard-working people. These crap new York residency places offer strong IMG candidates pre-match offers. They know they are malignant, so they pick very good candidates, offer them a pre Match position. It's very hard to say no to a guaranteed residency spot, even if at a malignant place. My sister, another IMG, went to one of these malignant places too 12-15 years ago, NY presbytarian i think, her scores were in the 99th percentile as well. She had 2 pre match offers.

the point is, these imgs will likely not be the best communicators, not have the best English speaking skills, so they might not impress you in a 15 minute conversation, but rest assured they are probably very hard working, and the cream of the crop to successfully get a US residency. It's so hard to get one as an img.

And just so you know... Getting into med school in the US is ridiculously easy. Try getting into a government med school in Pakistan. 2500 spots in total with 100,000 candidates taking the entry test.

couple things....

1) culture in the US is different in that it’s not about getting the highest scores. For a place that tries to tout itself on pure meritocracy that’s just not the case. There’s far more emphasis on pedigree, how you look, how you speak (including accent) and how interesting you are for getting coveted residency spots. When residencies put their residents on their website they list where they went to school, not their scores.

2) The interview is a big deal and will make or break you. Not being a good communicator will be a deal breaker, no matter your score. Being able to communicate effectively with patients and consultants is more important than knowing esoteric pathways tested on step 1. It’s not like in Asia where you get a high score on a single test and are guaranteed admission to a top tier school.

3) The USMLE was never meant to be that kind of exam (which is why step 1 has now gone P/F, much to the chagrin of IMGs, DO’s and MD students at low ranking schools; and I suspect step 2ck will soon follow). It was meant to be a a competency exam. Not to mention US grads get 1-2 months to study for it while IMGs can take as long as they want

4) there are IMGs at top hospitals and residency programs (eg look up Hopkins plastics). But these people are legit leaders in their field and fit the mold of what US programs are looking for. Not just a test taking machine who got in because they got a 278 and beat out someone with a 272 or something
 
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couple things....

1) culture in the US is different in that it’s not about getting the highest scores. For a place that tries to tout itself on pure meritocracy that’s just not the case. There’s far more emphasis on pedigree, how you look, how you speak (including accent) and how interesting you are for getting coveted residency spots. When residencies put their residents on their website they list where they went to school, not their scores.

2) The interview is a big deal and will make or break you. Not being a good communicator will be a deal breaker, no matter your score. Being able to communicate effectively with patients and consultants is more important than knowing esoteric pathways tested on step 1. It’s not like in Asia where you get a high score on a single test and are guaranteed admission to a top tier school.

3) The USMLE was never meant to be that kind of exam (which is why step 1 has now gone P/F, much to the chagrin of IMGs, DO’s and MD students at low ranking schools; and I suspect step 2ck will soon follow). It was meant to be a a competency exam. Not to mention US grads get 1-2 months to study for it while IMGs can take as long as they want

4) there are IMGs at top hospitals and residency programs (eg look up Hopkins plastics). But these people are legit leaders in their field and fit the mold of what US programs are looking for. Not just a test taking machine who got in because they got a 278 and beat out someone with a 272 or something

Agreed. They don't fit the mold of pedigree usually. But eventually overtime they assimilate the culture. Remember, they grew up in a culture where the ONLY thing that matters is academic excellence. It's hard to break away from that culture. None of them have even held a job in their life prior to graduating med school. I get it that they don't shine in interviews. My best friend's sister just applied this year. She wanted my advice on interviews, i asked her some basic questions, she kept rehashing her resume. Literally her response to "so what do you like to do for fun" was something about whatever research. They were the most boring responses. I really had to guide her that the point of the interview is to show who you are as a person. To let the personality shine, to show who you are outside of medicine. These IMGs just don't get it, and they don't have people guiding them. But it doesn't make them "unqualified" as was suggested. As physicians they are very qualified, they work hard, they usually won't whine about terrible malignant places, and they will do the work. But they lack the optics of presenting themselves as interesting people. Obviously there are exceptions, and those you see at the top tier institutes. But none the less, they are not "unqualified". Having an accent doesn't make someone unqualified.
 
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All my 4th years have jobs at this point, or are in the end stages of negotiating contracts. We have the same % of those community, academic and fellowship as previous years, roughly.
 
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