Does anyone know the avg Board scores for step 1 that Cleveland Clinic wants to see to have a good chance for a DO student to get in to the Cleveland Campus IM Program?
Cleveland Clinic IM Residency
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Do audition there and do average on USMLE. They're very DO friendly.
This next part is heresay but the word on the street is it isn't the best hospital to go to for residency . For fellowship it's amazing, but it's a fellow run hospital so they get to do fun stuff and it's really research heavy. University hospital and metro health are both really good residencies in Cleveland that aren't as focused on research and you get a little more out of residency. They also set you up for fellowships as well
This next part is heresay but the word on the street is it isn't the best hospital to go to for residency . For fellowship it's amazing, but it's a fellow run hospital so they get to do fun stuff and it's really research heavy. University hospital and metro health are both really good residencies in Cleveland that aren't as focused on research and you get a little more out of residency. They also set you up for fellowships as well
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68PGunner
Why not if it sets you up for a competitive fellowship? People lowly rank it bc as Joakim Noah said, "It's Cleveland."
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Not everyone wants a fellowship. As for PC IM it doesn't set you up for it and there is better Hospitalist programs
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If the fellows run things or get first dibs all the time, you get diluted training. By the time you show up for fellowship you'll be behind the curve. Holds true for all specialties.
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I've only seen one person on SDN talk bad about CC and this person had a known bias towards any DO friendly program. I find it hard to believe Cleveland Clinic is all that much different than any other research heavy academic program. These programs by their very nature "dilute" your training given the structure of academic IM.
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I have some questions I had about this. Are all residency programs with fellowships under the same hospital function under the premise that fellows get first dibs. Or are their a good chunk of programs where both coexist, but residents still get good training even with fellows around?
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Depends on the volume and structure of the department. Some places will have a resident run service with the fellow seeing overflow. Some places will have a separate fellow run service without much resident involvement. Some places have the fellow "staff" the service and then only they communicate with the attending. Every place has their own flavor.
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68PGunner
Why should I care about this if I'm gunning for that super competitive IM fellowship? If I'm behind the eight ball, it means that I have to outwork everyone in the first 6-8 months and be a great teammate in order for my clinical skills to be up to par.
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Not sure if serious? Your reputation will quickly be established and permeate throughout the department. You don't want to be a liability on call that the faculty dread to see on the schedule with them.
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68PGunner
I doubt that any matched resident to any of those super competitive fellowships will be as subpar as you're making it out to be. Basically, are you saying that all matched fellows from Cleveland Clinic are at risk of killing pts? This is fake news imo.
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You're being hyperbolic. This isn't about CC specifically. I'm stating that it's not just about climbing the ladder and getting to the next step which is seemingly what the premed and med school process has become. Residency is where real clinical development happens and it's naive to think the outputs will all be the same. Ultimately these are the people who will vouch for you in their specialty that you are competent.
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I personally don't understand how you can make the statement that residents coming from these academic residencies are subpar when the majority of them are matched to the competitive IM fellowships out there. That's what you're insinuating when you're saying that all the cool cases at these academic programs are reserved for the fellows.
I guess that the majority of the GI and Card fellows out there are subpar clinicians...
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68PGunner
Right... It's a continuous feeding process in which it's easier to get an acceptance to medical school if you come from a top undergrad. It's easier to get into a desirable residency if you come from a good medical school. Similarly, it's easier to get matched to a competitive fellowship if you come from a respectable program.
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Actually, some places dangle the whole "training" thing in front of you and explain how "our residents get GREAT trainings due to the lack of fellows (in this program with no name)".
It's all well and good that you've got great training for residency, but once the fellowship match hit, you can yell until your face turn blue but Hopkins will not extend you that interview that you would have gotten if you went to CCF.
You may or may not feel a bit behind the eight ball when you start your cards fellowship at Hopkins, but it sure beats not getting an interview there because you got "great hands on training" at a no name program.
It's better to suck at first and catch up and graduate with the fellowship of your choice than to not even been given an opportunity to see their place because the letterhead of your LOR comes from the wrong piece of paper.
Take it from someone who is going through the fellowship match, go for the biggest name you can get and worry about the other stuff later.
In radiology, places like Stanford or Duke aren't the busiest from a pure clinical training standpoint, but their grads consistently match better and get better jobs than community programs who maybe much businer and can show a bigger case log.
It's all well and good that you've got great training for residency, but once the fellowship match hit, you can yell until your face turn blue but Hopkins will not extend you that interview that you would have gotten if you went to CCF.
You may or may not feel a bit behind the eight ball when you start your cards fellowship at Hopkins, but it sure beats not getting an interview there because you got "great hands on training" at a no name program.
It's better to suck at first and catch up and graduate with the fellowship of your choice than to not even been given an opportunity to see their place because the letterhead of your LOR comes from the wrong piece of paper.
Take it from someone who is going through the fellowship match, go for the biggest name you can get and worry about the other stuff later.
In radiology, places like Stanford or Duke aren't the busiest from a pure clinical training standpoint, but their grads consistently match better and get better jobs than community programs who maybe much businer and can show a bigger case log.
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You are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm saying if you trained in a fellow dominated program with in house fellows around at all times to primarily manage issues that your comfort level once you ascend to the level of fellow and have limited back up will be less than those who come from primarily resident run programs where they have autonomy and less fellow involvement. Does it mean that they will be poor clinicians? Nope. Can it lead to a reputation of being a weaker fellow initially? Yep. That's not really related to your pedigree, rather your experience. There are equally community programs where staff run the show. At some point you can't rely on your pedigree and you have to do the job.
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If you're a DO getting an invite to CCF, you're also getting invites to the other solid mid tier University programs with a similar profile. It's not like you're choosing random community sweat shop and CCF
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Some names open more doors than others. I believe CCF is one of those place.
I am a strong believer that house hold name can matter a lot.
My own family member chose their physician base on how well known the undergrad is. More people know about U of M not because of their baller IR department but rather because of sports. I suspect many lay people consider a doc who went to Dartmouth better than a doc who went to UNC just because Dartmouth is an ivy.
Even to other physicians. If one is to tell me that CCF medicine is better ranked than say, University of Rochester, I would be prone to believe that CCF is better. (Full disclosure, I have no idea about which medicine programs are better regarded).
This is not just because I live a lot closer to CCF than to U of R, it's just that CCF is just a lot more known to lay people than U of R, while in actuality my classmate who went to U of R told me that the medicine program there is very strong as well.
It can easily come down to a reputation vs "supposed strength of training" scenario among comparable mid tier programs.
To be honest, the whole name thing is really silly, but unfortunately, some people do care, and honestly, every little bit of advantage in life matters sometimes.
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From interviewing there, and talking to many residents, the inpatient cardiology, GI, heme/onc, renal, MICU are all resident-run, no fellows.
Plus, strong matches this year, check it out on their website. Cardiology match often gets brought up: 3 in house this year, all from the same class. Total of 16 matched cardiology, 15 of them from the same class, very solid programs.
Notable GI matches: CCF, Cornell, Mayo-AZ. Notable heme/onc matches: BIDMC, Temple (Fox Chase Cancer Center), Duke.
All-in-all, it is a pretty solid mid-tier program.
Someone also posted this:
Plus, strong matches this year, check it out on their website. Cardiology match often gets brought up: 3 in house this year, all from the same class. Total of 16 matched cardiology, 15 of them from the same class, very solid programs.
Notable GI matches: CCF, Cornell, Mayo-AZ. Notable heme/onc matches: BIDMC, Temple (Fox Chase Cancer Center), Duke.
All-in-all, it is a pretty solid mid-tier program.
Someone also posted this:
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Hopefully that is true and perhaps a response to past experiences people have had there leading to the fellow run reputation. It remains one of the highest profile programs that accept DOs.
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68PGunner
Yeah, the program probably was a little more fellow run in the past (just looking at old threads from 2010 and before), but then under new leadership there has been a lot of change.
In general, for all programs, two things stood out to me more than anything else: board scores and LORs.
As a DO, certainly take the USMLE, aim for 240s+ (that goes for all mid-tier programs in general for DOs).
Also, it helps to have strong LORs. On the interview trail, my LORs were always brought up.
Having stuff like research, some extracurriculars can be a good conversation piece. However, it should not replace high board scores or doing really well on rotations to get awesome LORs.
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I'm assuming these LORs have to be from "notable" people in the field?
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Are these LORs coming from your third year clinical or fourth year auditions?
Nope, not at all. It is much better to get a personable letter from "unknown" attendings than a generic one from a notable one. Obviously, it is best to have both but not always possible. Admissions committees all over are pretty good at reading in between the lines, they can easily tell who wrote a generic letter versus who was genuinely impressed and would go to the length to vouch for you.
Both. But, honestly, plenty of people have just third year letters because auditions are hard to get early on in 4th year.
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How many IM programs are part of the Cleveland Clinic?
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Yup, a mystery individual who spent far to much time on the DO forums for the sole purpose of reminding DOs how inferior they were, and how they'd be terrible clinicians, under the guise of "educating" us. A guy who made it his business to insult every ACGME residency program that ever took take a DO, who'd always say "just tellin' it like it is."
Wonder who that could have been.
Cleveland Clinic was considered a mid tier IM program and an elite fellowship destination when I interviewed there (a decade ago). The overriding theme has always been that the strength of their fellowships led to a diluted IM experience. May still be true, may not be. It has a good enough name that if you apply and interview, you should take it and find out for yourself.
Look at the fellowship destination of their IM residents. If they are matching at CC, Duke, Hopkins, MG etc, then I would ignore everyone's opinion (mine included) and know that people who matter look at CC's residents very highly. If they match at a lot of community programs, that probably says something too. It's a great hospital. You'd get to learn from national leaders in their fields and get face time with some very powerful program directors. A lot worse options for residency IMO.
Look at the fellowship destination of their IM residents. If they are matching at CC, Duke, Hopkins, MG etc, then I would ignore everyone's opinion (mine included) and know that people who matter look at CC's residents very highly. If they match at a lot of community programs, that probably says something too. It's a great hospital. You'd get to learn from national leaders in their fields and get face time with some very powerful program directors. A lot worse options for residency IMO.
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Just my two cents
Everyone needs to stop shaming the IM program at CCF. IMO everything bad they say about this program is hearsay and hearsay only.
The kind of things I've about the program : They don't take their own residents for their cardiology fellowship (ranked no.1) = this is clearly false and if you check the website for where the residents go for fellowship you would notice how many end up staying in CCF.
It is fellow driven and residents are subpar in their training : It depends on you if want to train and learn procedures. Of course CCF doesn't give you the kind of exposure to procedures as Crozer Chester or a NY community program. However are residents from UCSF and Columbia the best in these regards? The answer is definitely "NO"
The reputation of CCF for being a pathetic program only cuz it accepts highly qualified IMGs and DOs is silly and US grads need to get over themselves
Everyone needs to stop shaming the IM program at CCF. IMO everything bad they say about this program is hearsay and hearsay only.
The kind of things I've about the program : They don't take their own residents for their cardiology fellowship (ranked no.1) = this is clearly false and if you check the website for where the residents go for fellowship you would notice how many end up staying in CCF.
It is fellow driven and residents are subpar in their training : It depends on you if want to train and learn procedures. Of course CCF doesn't give you the kind of exposure to procedures as Crozer Chester or a NY community program. However are residents from UCSF and Columbia the best in these regards? The answer is definitely "NO"
The reputation of CCF for being a pathetic program only cuz it accepts highly qualified IMGs and DOs is silly and US grads need to get over themselves
Are you a Resident at CCF? And if yes will you provide your insight on what they look for when choosing residents for the program?
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CCF IM isn't a pathetic program. But to act like it cant improve is also not true.
Some perspective on the CCF cardiology program interacting with the IM Program:
CCF IM traditionally sends a tremendous number of residents to cardiology fellowship each year- usually 15-20+. They tend to match pretty well. However, traditionally the CCF fellowship only takes 1-2 IM residents- not because of lack of interest from the CCF residents. Realize the CCF cards fellowship is the largest in the country (13 per year) so it is not as if they don't have the space for CCF residents. Perhaps it is because they also get tons of applicants from the top IM programs in the country or perhaps it is their impression of CCF IM vs these other programs .
For comparison, the brigham fills half of their class from the brigham residents (much more than half if you include all harvard residencies) , JHH tries to keep 4 per year (class of 9).
It is a fellow driven program. That doesn't mean it wont allow people to learn but it does mean your autonomy is different that some other programs. Often 2nd years at CCF will not have much central line/aline experience.
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I agree CCF IM residency is not as big as BWH and JHH- it is definitely not as big as the big 8; and it would make sense you see those numbers in fellowships at these places. But it is arguably a wonderful top/upper mid tier IM residency program.
Just a bunch of people on SDN who think otherwise would not change what your future recruiter/fellowship PD/patient thinks about this program
Just a bunch of people on SDN who think otherwise would not change what your future recruiter/fellowship PD/patient thinks about this program
IM is highly competitive at the top tier, even for MD students. The fact that it is not competitive at all for MD students says something, and it's not solely due to location (Case Western, WashU, Hopkins, etc, many places are more competitive than Cleveland Clinic). Also re. your comment on UCSF, UCSF has 4 diverse training sites including a large county hospital with extensive exposure to procedures. With the reputation and research at the Cleveland Clinic, we want to give it the benefit of the doubt as name brand is generally a big advantage in academics; the fact that despite that, no one wants it, says something. This has nothing to do with it taking DOs either, although programs that take many DOs are generally ones MDs don't want. There are, however, competitive and highly respected top programs like Univeristy of Washington which will take qualified DOs.
I guess a lot of things don't make sense. Such as, how can there possibly be so many DO cardiologists who did their fellowships there?? Whereas there were probably never any DOs in cardiology fellowship at MGH, BWH, JH.
By SDN logic, the cardiology fellowship at CCF is probably not that good now??
Here is a DO cardiologist who did residency and fellowship at CCF who actually is now the Director of Interventional Cardiology at the more "superior" Case Western University Hospital:
Mehdi H Shishehbor
Here is a DO cardiologist who did his residency and fellowship at CCF who is the current Director of Echocardiography at CCF:
Richard Grimm, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here is a DO cardiologist who did his residency at the DO community hospital SouthPointe and fellowship at CCF, he is the Director of the Cardiac Arrhythmia Monitoring Lab at CCF, and Director of the Syncope Center at CCF:
Fredrick Jaeger, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here are other DO cardiologists who also did their residency and fellowship at CCF; this is not an all inclusive list by the way, just the ones I could google so far:
William Schiavone, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Russell Raymond, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Chad Raymond, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here's another DO, who is not a cardiologist but did his vascular medicine fellowship at CCF who was a Director of MGH's vascular lab and Chair of the MGH Institute for Heart, Vascular and Stroke Care:
20 Questions: Michael R. Jaff, DO, Vascular Medicine - Student Doctor Network
Basically, none of the above makes any sense by SDN logic... Something is off here...
By SDN logic, the cardiology fellowship at CCF is probably not that good now??
Here is a DO cardiologist who did residency and fellowship at CCF who actually is now the Director of Interventional Cardiology at the more "superior" Case Western University Hospital:
Mehdi H Shishehbor
Here is a DO cardiologist who did his residency and fellowship at CCF who is the current Director of Echocardiography at CCF:
Richard Grimm, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here is a DO cardiologist who did his residency at the DO community hospital SouthPointe and fellowship at CCF, he is the Director of the Cardiac Arrhythmia Monitoring Lab at CCF, and Director of the Syncope Center at CCF:
Fredrick Jaeger, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here are other DO cardiologists who also did their residency and fellowship at CCF; this is not an all inclusive list by the way, just the ones I could google so far:
William Schiavone, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Russell Raymond, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Chad Raymond, DO | Cleveland Clinic
Here's another DO, who is not a cardiologist but did his vascular medicine fellowship at CCF who was a Director of MGH's vascular lab and Chair of the MGH Institute for Heart, Vascular and Stroke Care:
20 Questions: Michael R. Jaff, DO, Vascular Medicine - Student Doctor Network
Basically, none of the above makes any sense by SDN logic... Something is off here...
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Unlike the IM program at CCF, the cardiology program is elite and competitive for both DOs and MDs. Sure, there are a few people from the IM program that make it there, but you'll notice for any mid-tier program there are going to be several top tier matches among the best applicants (For instance, Cedars Sinai, a community program that also takes DOs can send people to Cedars for cards/GI, among other competitive institutions, yet no one would regard Cedars as a top tier program). No one is saying you cant be successful coming out of CCF, I'm sure there are excellent research opps and connections, it just doesn't have the clinical training or reputation (in IM) as top tier programs.
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SDN logic is the humor that gets me through procrastination of my exams
There is no evidence that the Cleveland Clinic IM program produces ill-trained residents. It doesn't matter if it's a fellow-run department. That tells you nothing. CCF residents match into great fellowships, and they are very successful, so to suggest that its training is subpar is just ridiculous. Maybe it's not as good as Hopkins or MGH for training, but the margin isn't very wide, and certainly not as wide as the theorists of SDN make it out to be.
Every mid-tier matches residents into great fellowships. If you'd actually seen the fellow matches at MGH and Hopkins, or even any program considered top 20, you'd know they aren't comparable (the margin is wide).
Obviously the best IM programs will have better fellowship matches. I did not say anything about that. I said the margin of training difference isn't as wide as you want to make it out to be. There is no evidence to suggest that.
Like I said, if CCF had good clinical training, it would be highly competitive considering 1) the quality of the research and 2) the prestige of the name. Also, the match list would reflect a top tier program if fellowship PDs respected their training.
That is not evidence of poor training...
Harvard, Dartmouth, WashU St Louis, and UNC matched some people into CCF's categorical IM program this year, for what it's worth:
https://meded.hms.harvard.edu/files...rd_medical_school_match_list_for_web_2018.pdf
https://geiselmed.dartmouth.edu/admissions/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/04/2018-Match-Results.pdf
Latest Match Results | Medical Student Admissions
2018 Placement by Student — Residency & Match
Guess it might be getting a bit more competitive for DOs now.
https://meded.hms.harvard.edu/files...rd_medical_school_match_list_for_web_2018.pdf
https://geiselmed.dartmouth.edu/admissions/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/04/2018-Match-Results.pdf
Latest Match Results | Medical Student Admissions
2018 Placement by Student — Residency & Match
Guess it might be getting a bit more competitive for DOs now.
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OUHCOM did have a CC IM match this year as well, so its certainly still attainable.
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So did Touro NY
