Clinical Social Worker Education and Training

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes, social work has a reputation for being a difficult and low paying occupation. It's akin to being a teacher (though often even lower paying) in reputation. I've worked with many social workers and what they do is often a tough job (e.g., DCFS work). Much respect from me.

Agreed. I've worked in multiple settings alongside psychiatrists and social workers, and as other posters have mentioned, the system can actually work very well, as each profession has different and generally complementary roles.

The biggest issues that I've seen arise occur when one field attempts to work in the guise of another without adequate training. I've seen social workers functioning as psychotherapists--some have been excellent, while others attempted to work "CBT" into their job responsibilities by providing it for 20-30 minutes once every two or three months. As can be imagined, this is neither effective nor in the best interests of our clients; however, due to a lack of appropriate training and supervision, this latter group of mental health professionals (who were all intelligent, hard-working individuals, mind you) had no idea how or why the services they were providing were not, in fact, CBT.

I second the notion that I've seen very few posters in this thread suggesting that social work, as a field, is somehow lower than psychology; it's simply different. I would imagine that enough of us have worked in treatment team-type settings far too long to allow us to demean our peers in social work (or psychiatry).

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[deleted176373]

Mark P - If you don't want to participate in the discussion, then don't!! No one is twisting your arm, forcing you to read or post. Perhaps you are the one that is pathetic!

LOL, I am not the one who stated, "I'm done" on post 58 of this thread... Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you're done, then why are you still trying to prove that LCSW = Psychologist.

It doesn't, it won't, and it shouldn't. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

I would enjoy this discussion more if you would join us here without your delusional opinion that Clinical Social Workers are Clinical Psychologists. I'm not about to cede that argument and I do believe the fields are different. I think what is most disturbing is that after a graduate education you can't tell the difference between the two professions.

Mark

 

[deleted176373]

Not what I am saying at all. My point is that psychology cannot meet the demand for therapists so other professions have stepped in.

Really, so since there are not enough cardiac surgeons, this doesn't mean that psychiatrists should start doing cardiac surgery, perhaps auto mechanics and plumbers should start stepping in there too? That's a lame excuse to encroach on another profession that one lacks competency for.

I don't agree. Just because social workers aren't psychologists doesn't mean their training is inferior. You are assuming that by default, clinical psychology education is superior, but as has been noted, it has yet to be proven the the psychology education model is superior to any other model.

Once again, here we go... IT'S DIFFERENT. There are some amazing clinical social workers, but that doesn't make them psychologists! I know some amazing auto mechanics, guys smart enough to be physicians, but that doesn't mean that just because they are smart enough that they have the competency to be my doctor... they weren't trained for that!!!

70% of therapists are clinical social workers, yet social work isn't a dominant force in mental health treatment?

And are all those therapists doing mental health treatment or are they doing clinical social work? No doubt that clinical social workers work with the mentally ill, that's not the point. The point is are these practitioners practicing within the scope of their training? Ethical treatment considerations would require one to practice ONLY within ones competency or to seek supervision/referrals for cases outside ones competence.

I live in a state with 6 million residents, yet we only have a handful of clinical psych. programs. How are they to meet the growing demand for services? Should we turn clients away because we believe that clinical psychology is the only relevant paradigm?

Yes, if one is NOT QUALIFIED to treat clients for the conditions they have, one is OBLIGATED to either turn them away, refer them to providers who are competent, or to secure the supervision and training needed to handle the patient. Without doing that, one is NOT practicing ethically.

If someone said they had an electrical problem in their house and needed you to rewire their entire breaker box and run new electric service through out their house, would you do it if there were no licensed electricians around?

Probably not. Most would turn them away and say, I am sorry I don't do electrical work. Some might refer them to an electrician, some might even find an electrician willing to supervise them... but most sure as hell would not just run off to home depot and rewire the persons house without additional training and supervision to avoid liability.

Mark

 

[FadedC]

Perhaps you need to read about the history of social work. Social workers have been providing mental health services since WWII.

Well but I'm not really sure you are really addressing what I wrote. People in my own field of school psych have always provided mental health services too. And like social work, our field is expanding and many of us are working in areas where clinical psychologists usually work. But that doesn't change the fact that the focus of our training is not clinical psychology and that it would inapropriate to become a school psychologist if all you want to do is clinical work.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

BSWdavid: The only one really talking about this subject in terms of "hierarchy," "inferiority," and "animosity" is YOU. What you construe as these nasty things is what everyone else on this board (and in the actual world of clinical practice) views as different training, different specializations/strengths, and different professional roles. Notice that not one person in this thread has ever said or even hinted that LCSWs are inferior or that their jobs are secondary or useless. They are different from ours, don't you get that? Its a different dicipline (that has some overlapping commonalities, obviously), thats why it has a different name!

The feuding between mental health disciplines gets exaggerated on here because people like you make comments about how they (you) should be to do my profession under a different name and with less training. Our response has been simply "no, your not...and here's are the reasons why." In turn, you set up poorly constructed straw men arguments about topics that are essentially irrelevant (we have thoroughly explained how the Rx movement is much different than what you are proposing, both in structure and in premise, and have explain how and why disciplines change focus over time), and play the "oh, you guys are just arrogant" card. Its a intellectually sloppy way to debate, and that why you have gotten some snide comments-however, I feel the vast majority have been cogent, albeit blunt arguments on why your initial proposition was 1.) not reasonable 2.) not needed at this time.

Again, I think YOU are the one caught up in the perceived ivory tower hierarchy. Maybe you have had some bad experiences, but I really don't think that the acrimony between SW and clinical psych is present much in the day-to-day operations of the real world. Sure, there are scope of practice issues and petty BS that comes up from time to time, but I really don't think its anything to get all "sad" about. Its just human nature. If you are going to work in the mental healthcare system you are going to have to get in through your head the we dont hold hands and do the Kumbayah for our patients by all doing the same job. We do the Kumbayah by working together within our training so we can utilize our respective strengths. And for goodness sake, you need to respect the training strengths of those other professions and not trample all over them with informal versions of your own and learn to admit that "you don't know what you dont know" or you are gonna piss alot of people off. There is nothing surprising about any of this to me. Its people squabbling over how to become the best clinicians and researchers so patients can get the best care/treatment. We all have a vested interest in it. I think its cool actually.

In reading this board however, one is struck by the consistent complaints about "mid-levels" encroaching on psychology's territory. One reads consistently about "mid-levels" bringing down reimbursements. One reads about "mid-levels" having a legal scope of practice that exceeds their competence etc ... If this is the belief system expressed on this board, who can blame the OP for his perceptions.

Even the use of the term "mid-level" for licensed master's level professionals is itself insulting, inaccurate and implicitly demeaning. A mid-level is a practitioner who requires supervision by a doctoral level person and should strictly speaking only apply to PA's and NP's who require physician supervision. So even the language used on this board implies hierarchy.

I suspect that the original poster's plan to get a Ph.D. in social work has irked some because a Ph.D. level clinical social worker could not be1 considered a "mid-level." Personally I support the idea of the Ph.D. as the entry level credential for LCSW's and LPC's and for independent practice. Other professions such as pharmacists, physical therapists and nurse practitioners have already or are moving in that direction.

 

[DrGero]

In reading this board however, one is struck by the consistent complaints about "mid-levels" encroaching on psychology's territory. One reads consistently about "mid-levels" bringing down reimbursements. One reads about "mid-levels" having a legal scope of practice that exceeds their competence etc ... If this is the belief system expressed on this board, who can blame the OP for his perceptions.

Even the use of the term "mid-level" for licensed master's level professionals is itself insulting, inaccurate and implicitly demeaning. A mid-level is a practitioner who requires supervision by a doctoral level person and should strictly speaking only apply to PA's and NP's who require physician supervision. So even the language used on this board implies hierarchy.

I suspect that the original poster's plan to get a Ph.D. in social work has irked some because a Ph.D. level clinical social worker could not be1 considered a "mid-level." Personally I support the idea of the Ph.D. as the entry level credential for LCSW's and LPC's and for independent practice. Other professions such as pharmacists, physical therapists and nurse practitioners have already or are moving in that direction.

Interesting - I only ran into people using the term "mid-level" to describe LCSWs, LPCs, MAs, etc when I started using this board. Indeed it seems like the term "mid-level" is only technically appropriate to use when describing 'physician extenders' such as NPs (who actually are in training a heck of a lot longer than masters-level therapists AFAIK).

I think it's not really fair to excuse BSWDavid's aggressive postings about this topic simply based on perhaps inaccurate use of terminology. It's fair to point out that masters-level therapists like LCSWs don't spend the same amount of resources (measured in time, money, opportunity costs, etc.) getting their degrees that doctoral-level therapists do - so at least there's a built in "heirarchy" that's out there simply measured in the time and effort it takes to attain one's degree. I guess that's different for a doctoral-level social worker... and no, I'm not "irked" by someone getting a doctorate in social work - could we stop ascribing emotional reactions to the collective group here?

It's also fair to point out (and emphasize) that social workers, at least the ones I've worked with (and I've worked with many in my relatively short career) are often compensated pretty poorly even taking into account the less years required to attain their degrees, and the quality one's I've worked with add *very* significant value to the mental health treatment teams I've worked in, precisely because their training has been complementary to my own. Again, they don't have "inferior" training, they have *different* training. That goes for masters-level and doctoral-level social workers.

That being said, it's really ridiculous to go to a Psychologists' forum and try and look for validation for the notion that Social Workers (doctoral or masters-level) can function as psychologists without additional, focused training. Not only is it illogical on a number of levels already touched on, it's just crassly impolitic - and much more impolitic then saying "mid-level" when one should really say "master's level" (frankly, getting placed in the same category as NPs and PAs doesn't sound insulting to me - just inaccurate as masters-level clinicians aren't physician extenders).

And there are a lot of good reasons such as our collective responsibility to provide services ethically as clinicians that we shouldn't countenance encroachment of masters-level therapists on the bulk of clinical psychologists' traditional scope of practice. It's simply not a good idea to encourage LCSWs to (for examples) do capacity assessments or MMPI2 interpretation - they just aren't trained properly in it. And moreover, I would expect a Psychologists' forum to spend time talking about the issue of encroachment from time to time (and not be particularly sanguine about it) - not only are issues of ethical practice or reasonable standard of care at the forefront here, yes, there's a threat to the economic well-being of clinical psychologists. So why would anyone expect a roomful of psychologists to be supportive of a poster making strident claims supportive of encroachment? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Born2rumble1st]

It also seems, to me at least, that the OP is being disrespectful to those who get a Ph.D. in social work in order to become clinical social workers. I know if I was a clinical social worker, I would be offended if someone said that my degree was essentially a backdoor entrance into psychology (which is exactly what the OP is using it for). I imagine that the majority of social workers out there take pride in the fact they are social workers and strongly believe that there is value in the aspects of their training that differentiate them from psychologists. Furthermore, I would be very upset if I was applying for admission to a Ph.D. program in clinical social work and found out that I was rejected so that someone who doesn't want to be a social worker could be admitted to the program. Using the OP's comparison of psychiatrists/psychologists, it would be the equivalent of someone obtaining a spot in a clinical psychology program who wanted to be a psychiatrist, and only applied because getting into medical school was "too difficult." As someone who does want to be a clinical psychologist and might not get the opportunity to do so, that idea bothers me.

 

[erg923]

even the use of the term "mid-level" for licensed master's level professionals is itself insulting, inaccurate and implicitly demeaning. A mid-level is a practitioner who requires supervision by a doctoral level person and should strictly speaking only apply to pa's and np's who require physician supervision. So even the language used on this board implies hierarchy.

OMG, give me a break! I think my quote is probably the most appopriate response that nonsense.

 

[cara susanna]

About the mid-level terminology being offensive: sorry, I never really thought about it. I saw the term being used here and just adopted it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

About the mid-level terminology being offensive: sorry, I never really thought about it. I saw the term being used here and just adopted it.

In the medical setting (where I did the majority of my training), it wasn't a derogatory term, it was a descriptive term for anyone who functioned as an extender (NP/PA supervised by a physician, counselor/MFT/etc supervised by a psychologist, etc). From my understanding, the pushback first came from nursing when NPs started getting "independent" practice rights. The "Same, but different, but equal" crowd caused the most noise about it. I don't find the term to be derogatory, but to each their own.

 

[stigmata]

OMG, give me a break!

Agree 100%

The term mid-level is generally accepted, especially in medical settings where they cannot get privileges, with medicare/medicaid etc.. Just because someone is offended by something doesn't mean it is the wrong thing...didn't we learn this in kindergarten?

 

[DrGero]

Agree 100%

The term mid-level is generally accepted, especially in medical settings where they cannot get privileges, with medicare/medicaid etc.. Just because someone is offended by something doesn't mean it is the wrong thing...didn't we learn this in kindergarten?

Worrying about whether politically correct terminology has been used to describe our masters-degreed counterparts is a distraction, obviously.

I started using the term for the same reason Cara Susanna did. I only would stop using because it doesn't seem quite accurately descriptive - but I really think the idea that it's an insulting term is silly.

 

[BSWdavid]

It also seems, to me at least, that the OP is being disrespectful to those who get a Ph.D. in social work in order to become clinical social workers. I know if I was a clinical social worker, I would be offended if someone said that my degree was essentially a backdoor entrance into psychology (which is exactly what the OP is using it for). I imagine that the majority of social workers out there take pride in the fact they are social workers and strongly believe that there is value in the aspects of their training that differentiate them from psychologists. Furthermore, I would be very upset if I was applying for admission to a Ph.D. program in clinical social work and found out that I was rejected so that someone who doesn't want to be a social worker could be admitted to the program. Using the OP's comparison of psychiatrists/psychologists, it would be the equivalent of someone obtaining a spot in a clinical psychology program who wanted to be a psychiatrist, and only applied because getting into medical school was "too difficult." As someone who does want to be a clinical psychologist and might not get the opportunity to do so, that idea bothers me.

My pursuing a PhD in clinical social work is not disrespectful to LCSWs. I don't intend on practicing outside my scope of practice. However, I do want more in-depth knowledge of psychodynamic therapy, which is what the degree focuses on. It does not attempt to offer a backdoor into psychology.I have never claimed the PhD in clinical social work is a backdoor into clinical psych. There are no additional privileges that come with a PhD in social work. This is no different than a psychiatrist attending a psychoanalytic institute to obtain advanced training in psychoanalysis.

 

[deleted176373]

My pursuing a PhD in clinical social work is not disrespectful to LCSWs. I don't intend on practicing outside my scope of practice. However, I do want more in-depth knowledge of psychodynamic therapy, which is what the degree focuses on. It does not attempt to offer a backdoor into psychology.I have never claimed the PhD in clinical social work is a backdoor into clinical psych. There are no additional privileges that come with a PhD in social work. This is no different than a psychiatrist attending a psychoanalytic institute to obtain advanced training in psychoanalysis.

Ummm, it's quite different... A Ph.D. in clinical social work is NOT training to become a psychodynamic therapist. Most people seek out psychodynamic psychological training to become a psychodynamic psychotherapist.

Apples:
Psychoanalytic institute -> Focused Psychoanalytic training -> Competence as a psychoanalyst. Ok I can see that.

and

Oranges:
Ph.D. in Clinical Social Work -> Focused Psychodynamic Psychotherapy Training -> Psychodynamic Psychotherapist.

Is it me, am I the only one seeing the obvious disconnect in this???

So now let's put this in Context:

Yes, unfortunately I am bound to Indiana, which I know makes the likely hood of a psych degree slim. I don't have the pre-req work to go into a psych Ph.D oy Psy.D program. However, it wouldn't be a big deal to get that. My problem is lack of research experience (I have never participated in research) and low GPA. My cum GPA is a 3.2 and social work GPA is a 3.9 (however, I know they don't pay much attention to social work classes).

I am trying to "embrace" social work but it has been hard. I have always had such a facination with psychology and human behavior. My issue is that research isn't necessarily something I care to participate in. I love learning from research, I just don't want to be the one doing the research.I enjoy learning about and applying psychology but don't care to be the one writing the books, so to speak. I feel like im in a real bind. It feels like a no win situation.

BTW - one of my biggest fears is being poor on an MSW salary or not finding a job as a therapist. I really don't want to work in case management.

If you are not trying to back door your way into psychology, I don't know what you are trying to do... Stop complaining that you can't get the right education. You are not bound to anything, like every other person you get to make decisions for yourself, you have decided that you cannot leave Indiana for whatever reason you have. That's your right. However to state that you cannot get the education you desire because it is unavailable is BS. You have thrown every reason imaginable to see if you can practice as a psychologist with a degree in social work. The answer is that the ONLY way you will ever be a psychologist is if you complete a degree in PSYCHOLOGY.

Stop lying to us and saying that you don't want to be a psychologist as you did in an earlier post in this thread. The truth is that you DON'T want to be a social worker. I am sorry to hear that. I am sorry that you wasted your time getting the wrong degree, but all the wishing in the world will NOT make you a psychologist.

Mark

http://www.icsw.edu/programs/phd/ <- is this the training program you are considering???

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Traditionally Social Work Ph.Ds are research degrees, though I'm not sure if there are programs out there that offer more clinically focused training. Institute training is probably more useful, though the OP would need to live in/near a major city, as I'm not familiar with any in the 'burbs.

 

[BSWdavid]

Traditionally Social Work Ph.Ds are research degrees, though I'm not sure if there are programs out there that offer more clinically focused training. Institute training is probably more useful, though the OP would need to live in/near a major city, as I'm not familiar with any in the 'burbs.

http://www.nyu.edu/socialwork/our.programs/phd.html

http://www.icsw.edu/programs/phd/http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html

http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html

 

[BSWdavid]

Ummm, it's quite different... A Ph.D. in clinical social work is NOT training to become a psychodynamic therapist. Most people seek out psychodynamic psychological training to become a psychodynamic psychotherapist.

Apples:
Psychoanalytic institute -> Focused Psychoanalytic training -> Competence as a psychoanalyst. Ok I can see that.

and

Oranges:
Ph.D. in Clinical Social Work -> Focused Psychodynamic Psychotherapy Training -> Psychodynamic Psychotherapist.

Is it me, am I the only one seeing the obvious disconnect in this???

So now let's put this in Context:



If you are not trying to back door your way into psychology, I don't know what you are trying to do... Stop complaining that you can't get the right education. You are not bound to anything, like every other person you get to make decisions for yourself, you have decided that you cannot leave Indiana for whatever reason you have. That's your right. However to state that you cannot get the education you desire because it is unavailable is BS. You have thrown every reason imaginable to see if you can practice as a psychologist with a degree in social work. The answer is that the ONLY way you will ever be a psychologist is if you complete a degree in PSYCHOLOGY.

Stop lying to us and saying that you don't want to be a psychologist as you did in an earlier post in this thread. The truth is that you DON'T want to be a social worker. I am sorry to hear that. I am sorry that you wasted your time getting the wrong degree, but all the wishing in the world will NOT make you a psychologist.

Mark

http://www.icsw.edu/programs/phd/ <- is this the training program you are considering???

Even the US military recognizes doctoral level clinical social work clinicians. One may enter the army as a captain if they possess a doctorate in clinical social work, or may enter as an officer with an MSW.

There are psychodynamic therapists that are psychiatrists, psychologists, clinical social workers, mental health counselors, etc. Why do you believe that this is exclusive to psychology?

 

[deleted176373]

Even the US military recognizes doctoral level clinical social work clinicians. One may enter the army as a captain if they possess a doctorate in clinical social work, or may enter as an officer with an MSW.

There are psychodynamic therapists that are psychiatrists, psychologists, clinical social workers, mental health counselors, etc. Why do you believe that this is exclusive to psychology?

Yes, and they are recognized as CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKERS not CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGISTS. However, I encourage you to join the military as a clinical social worker, many military clinical social workers have plenty of opportunities to do therapy.

Look, I don't deny that there is overlap, but the disciplines are different, I really do appreciate what social workers bring to the table. I don't deny that many are skilled therapists and utilize their unique training to deal with complex problems. They are not clinical psychologists.

You've already stated that the only area that psychologists can claim any ownership of is psychological assessment, I doubt that all the posters here will ever change your mind regarding the other differences between the two professions.

Mark

 

[BSWdavid]

My intention in staring this thread was to learn more about the similarities and differences between the two professions. We may agree to disagree on many of our points, but I thank all of you for shedding light on the subject. I learned a lot from the discussion and am more informed about the overlap between clinical psychology and clinical social work.

Mark P - asking your advice on this one - what is your opinion on the ICSW PhD program (specifically from a psychodynamic training perspective)? I was accepted there and am considering the program. I have received a lot of good feedback about the program from current and former students, clinicians (social work, psychology, and psychiatry), and faculty members.

Thanks,

David

 

[deleted176373]

http://www.nyu.edu/socialwork/our.programs/phd.html

http://www.icsw.edu/programs/phd/http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html

http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/index.html

I'm glad you included these.

http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/programs/dsw/grids.html
http://www.nyu.edu/socialwork/our.programs/phd.fulltime.table.html

I have taken over 200 quarter hours (130 Semester Hours) of Psychological Training in the first 3 years ALONE. Penn requires 14 courses to graduate with a DSW, and NYU 16 courses to complete the program. I took 16 courses in my first year ALONE. Are you sure you want to compare training models???

Where in the curriculum do you see treatment of mental illness?

LOOK at the curriculum, now compare it with this:

Year 1:
Adult Psychopathology; Clerkship I; Clinical Assessment I and II; Cultural Diversity*: Research and Practice*; Ethics and the Responsible Conduct of Research; Ethics in Psychology; Experimental Statistics; Health Psychology/Behavioral Medicine; Human Development*; Introduction to Medical Psychology; Research Methods I and II; Personality Theory*; Psychology of Learning*; Physiology

Year 2:
Clerkship II; Clinical Skills I; Foundations of Intervention: Cognitive-Behavioral; Foundations of Intervention: Psychodynamic*; History and Systems*; Military Psychology I: Organizational & Industrial*; Psychopharmacology

Year 3:
Child Psychopathology & Assessment; Clerkship III; Clinical Skills II; Current Problems & Practice in Preventive Medicine; Electives; Foundations of Intervention: Group Psychotherapy*; Health Systems; Military Psychology II: Clinical Applications*; Planning, Implementing & Evaluating Human Service Programs*; Social Psychology;

Year 4:
Dissertation Research; Electives

Don't take this as me looking down on Social Work Doctorates... they deserve to be called Dr. and they have earned the title through their programs. The training is REALLY different though.

 

[deleted176373]

Mark P - asking your advice on this one - what is your opinion on the ICSW PhD program (specifically from a psychodynamic training perspective)? I was accepted there and am considering the program. I have received a lot of good feedback about the program from current and former students, clinicians (social work, psychology, and psychiatry), and faculty members.

Thanks,

David

Don't know why you would want my advice on this... It looks more like a psychology program than a social work program. I have no idea about their reputation or the quality of the training there. I do know that NYU and Penn have excellent reputations, and if I were going to be a DSW I would want a degree from a leading institution. The faculty at Penn looked great (as one would expect of a leading institution.) If you look at the faculty at ICSW, it looks a little too incestuous for my tastes.

Mark

 

[stigmata]

By the way a Captain is an officer and it is the rank of all entry level commissioned officers in the health service realm. Please, please, please have a clue about the topic you are posting about.

 

[deleted176373]

By the way a Captain is an officer and it is the rank of all entry level commissioned officers in the health service realm. Please, please, please have a clue about the topic you are posting about.

Not true... MSW's and Masters level health care administrators enter as O-2's and Nurses (B.S.N.'s) enter as O-1. It has to do with educational level.

Bachelors level - O-1 entry
Masters level - O-2 entry
Doctoral level - O-3 entry

Some specialities (Dental etc) may enter as high as O-4 or O-5.

Mark

 

[edieb]

My intention in staring this thread was to learn more about the similarities and differences between the two professions. We may agree to disagree on many of our points, but I thank all of you for shedding light on the subject. I learned a lot from the discussion and am more informed about the overlap between clinical psychology and clinical social work?

Mark P - asking your advice on this one - what is your opinion on the ICSW PhD program (specifically from a psychodynamic training perspective)? I was accepted there and am considering the program. I have received a lot of good feedback about the program from current and former students, clinicians (social work, psychology, and psychiatry), and faculty members.

Thanks,

David

I should have read your earlier posts more carefully -- I thought you were alredy enrolled in a PhD/DSW program. If you aren't even enrolled, why don't you wait a year and apply to a doctoral program in clinical or counseling psychology?

I know you explicity think you want to be a psychologist but it really sounds like youre much more interested in clinical work than social justice. Furthermore, if you favor a psychodynamic orientation, psychological personality asessment (TAT, etc) can give you a deeper understanding of psychodynamics.

Don't waste time pursuing a degree that is second best for what you want to do with it. I really think a Ph.D. or Psy.D in clinical or counseling psychology is the best option for you

 

[stigmata]

Not true... MSW's and Masters level health care administrators enter as O-2's and Nurses (B.S.N.'s) enter as O-1. It has to do with educational level.

Bachelors level - O-1 entry
Masters level - O-2 entry
Doctoral level - O-3 entry

Some specialities (Dental etc) may enter as high as O-4 or O-5.

Mark

I was not talking about administration, but health service corps who enter with the rank of captain. I do not consider BA/MA level administrators as health care providers...do you?

 

[deleted176373]

I was not talking about administration, but health service corps who enter with the rank of captain. I do not consider BA/MA level administrators as health care providers...do you?

Yes, the military does... that's why they are in the "medical service corps." Navy, Army, AF all do it slightly differently... So I will stick to what I know, Navy.

The Navy has Nurse Corps, Medical Service Corps, Medical Corp, etc.

Medical Corps is primarily MD's, I don't think there are any exceptions to that but I could be wrong.

Medical Service Corps has pharmacologists, podiatrists, health care admins, psychologists, etc.

Nurse Corps is also self explanatory.

Mark

 

[BSWdavid]

Yes, the military does... that's why they are in the "medical service corps." Navy, Army, AF all do it slightly differently... So I will stick to what I know, Navy.

The Navy has Nurse Corps, Medical Service Corps, Medical Corp, etc.

Medical Corps is primarily MD's, I don't think there are any exceptions to that but I could be wrong.

Medical Service Corps has pharmacologists, podiatrists, health care admins, psychologists, etc.

Nurse Corps is also self explanatory.

Mark

At some point I had read that if a social worker obtained a doctorate in clinical social work, they were eligible to enter as a captain, but I cannot recall which branch of the military it was (either army or navy). As Mark noted, each branch does it differently.

 

[BSWdavid]

From Wikipedia:

The Medical Service Corps consists entirely of commissioned and warrant officers. Members are required to hold at least a Bachelors Degree before receiving a commission. The MS is the most diverse branch of the Army, with members performing the greatest range of duties. Members perform duties as administrative and support functions as healthcare administrators, field medical administrative assistants in operational units, healthcare comptrollers, healthcare informatics officers, patient administrators, health service human resource managers, medical operations and plans officers, medical logisticians, health services maintenance technicians, and medical evacuation pilots. MS officers serve in clinical support roles as clinical laboratory science officers, environmental science officers, pharmacists and preventive medicine officers. Medical Service Corps Officers serve as commanders of field medical units in garrison and combat environments. MS officers provide healthcare to patients as psychologists (PhD, PsyD), social workers (MSW with state license), optometrists, pharmacist, podiatrists, and audiologists. The Medical Service Corps also functions as a transitional branch, encompassing commissioned medical, dental, and veterinary students who have not completed their training through the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences (USUHS) or the Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP).
Unlike the other corps of the Army Medical Department, Medical Service Corps officers hold general command authority and can legally command non-AMEDD units, details, troop commands, inter alia, in the same manner as officers of the "competitive category" branches (infantry, ordnance, quartermaster, etc.). In contrast, Medical Corps and Dental Corps officers are limited to command billets specific to their respective corps (e.g. hospitals, MEDDACs, clinics for doctors; dental clinics, DENTACs for dentists).[3]

 

[deleted176373]

At some point I had read that if a social worker obtained a doctorate in clinical social work, they were eligible to enter as a captain, but I cannot recall which branch of the military it was (either army or navy). As Mark noted, each branch does it differently.

As far as I know, the Navy does NOT have many active duty clinical social workers, but the Army has far more... If you have a Doctorate, you get to come in as O-3, that's pretty much the rule AFAIK. Unlike Army MSC officers, Navy MSC officers generally do not command non-medical units except in perhaps the most dire of circumstances. An Ensign line officer has more command authority over line units than an Admiral in the Medical or Medical Service Corps.

Mark

 

[stigmata]

Not true... MSW's and Masters level health care administrators enter as O-2's and Nurses (B.S.N.'s) enter as O-1. It has to do with educational level.

Bachelors level - O-1 entry
Masters level - O-2 entry
Doctoral level - O-3 entry

Some specialities (Dental etc) may enter as high as O-4 or O-5.

Mark

Oh crap, you are right. Sorry. Guess I only ever knew about doctoral-level commissions.

 

[deleted176373]

Oh crap, you are right. Sorry. Guess I only ever knew about doctoral-level commissions.

No big deal, we all learn from each other!

 

[pure genius]

Mark,

In reading this thread I just wanted to say you are a pompous bastard. And u should go **** yourself =]

-MSW student

 

[erg923]

Mark,

In reading this thread I just wanted to say you are a pompous bastard. And u should go **** yourself =]

-MSW student

What about me? I feel left out.

 

[cara susanna]

Really? You bumped a thread just to say that? PMing does the job just as well!

 

[futurepsych0]

Oh my! I never realized that the profession I was looking to enter was so cut-throat. Maybe I should enter a more peaceful field of employment like the mafia! Since I am very young, ignorant, and new to this forum I cannot really speak about the differences between fields because I am only on my first year of my bachelors. However, I agree with the poster that stated that this is the trend healthcare is taking. No matter who is right or wrong if the insurance companies can pay people less they will! Now, whether or not it is a good or bad thing is a different story. One of my friend's fathers is a physician and was recently telling me about a very similar situation that GPs are dealing with. In New York NPs can work independently without supervision from a MD and bill insurance. He was stating how the DNP degree was just a political way of NPs taking a half-ass route to "playing doctor". (Which according to him they are not qualified to do) Now before any NPs or DNPs attack me, let me be clear, this is not my opinion I am simply repeating what was said to me. My point is, every profession should know their own limitations based on their education and training. For example, can a NP be my primary care? Sure! But only because I have no serious health issues and usually go because of strep or any upper respiratory infection. In this case seeing my NP is fine. However, if I did have a serious illness I would hope that the NP would know that they lack the proper training and education and refer me to a specialist (MD). If everyone would simply do their job based on their education and training and stop comparing themselves to someone else they would be happier. I am going to go out on a limb here and also say that the BSW who started the thread did so because he is second guessing his own choice. He is probably also very pissed off of always being compared to a psychologist. Honestly, if you feel you have entered the field that will make you the happiest then who cares what other people think? No matter what profession you decide to enter someone will always look down and think they are better. If you want to be a DSW I respect you for having the desire to further educate yourself. There is also no need to insult anyone or tell them to go **** off. Honestly if a married couple on the verge of divorce came in and said I am a social worker and spouse is a psychologist and we can’t seem to stop arguing over who is better what would you say as their psychotherapist? All I am trying to say is....can't we all just get along?

 

[2012PhD]

doctoral training is fundamentally different from masters-level training in depth and breadth. Also, I've known many BSW and MSW students who had no real interest in therapy but passion for other aspects of social work.[/QUOTE]

I second this.

I currently work at the VA and I really enjoy working closely with social workers and find them to be extremely dedicated and competent here. They are excellent at patient advocacy, social justice, case management, supportive forms of psychotherapy etc. However, psychologist are the experts (hands down) when it comes to administering very focused and complicated treatments like Prolonged Exposure and CPT with combat veterans. I've worked at several VA's and multiple settings, and psychologists are the only ones that are training staff on these treatments and are considered the go to experts in this area. Psychologists are also generally the only professionals that are competent at neuropsychological assessment and can communicate assessment feedback competently to other providers.

I co-lead groups with psychologists and social workers so i've been able to observe both professions (even though i'm biased). In my experience, social workers can be excellent at supportive and overall general psychotherapeutic technique. However, when it comes to dealing with very difficult and complicated clients in groups or working with unmotivated/hostile clients, this is where clinical savvy and expertise makes a huge difference. Psychologists are the ones with the clinical savvy and "artistic" skills to be able to navigate these difficult situations, respond very flexibly and effectively negotiate with clients. I have seen many psychologists "beautifully" diffuse explosive and violent clients and also convince involuntarily committed clients to stay in treatment on a voluntary basis. I have not seen this type of specific savvy among social workers simply because the training does not focus on these type of skills.

During internship, I receive 5-6 hours of individual supervision, 2 hours of group supervision, and 4 hours of seminar training per week, mostly with videotape review. Psychology interns who want to improve their skills in Prolonged Exposure get 1 hour of individual supervision per 1-2 cases, complete videotape review with feedback each week, and get lots of didactic training. Can any social work practicum or internship provide this type of depth? To become an expert at something you really need this type of immersion.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

During internship, I receive 5-6 hours of individual supervision, 2 hours of group supervision, and 4 hours of seminar training per week, mostly with videotape review. Psychology interns who want to improve their skills in Prolonged Exposure get 1 hour of individual supervision per 1-2 cases, complete videotape review with feedback each week, and get lots of didactic training. Can any social work practicum or internship provide this type of depth? To become an expert at something you really need this type of immersion.

This is very true, particularly for VA training.

 

[Shatani]

This is very true, particularly for VA training.

now, i really want some VA training, but the idea of watching myself on video makes me nauseous! lol

 

[futureapppsy2]

now, i really want some VA training, but the idea of watching myself on video makes me nauseous! lol

I thought video supervision was standard in most training clinics and a lot of prac sites...? Although it can be a complete blow to the ego, I agree.

 

[erg923]

now, i really want some VA training, but the idea of watching myself on video makes me nauseous! lol

You should have done this in grad school and internship...at least some. This is standard training in university programs. Or at least I thought it was.

It is a learning experience and you have nothing to be nauseous about. VA mandates that those training to be certified in PE and CPT (as well as some other therapies) audiotape their sessions and have supervisor/peer review. Doesn't matter how long you have been practicing. I have alot of audiotaping of my sessions thus far at my VA internship.

 

[Ollie123]

I also wasn't aware there were people who DIDN'T get videotaped. Its done for 3/4 places I've worked, and definitely at the school clinic we're required to work in throughout. That doesn't mean you watch every single session from start to finish, but its important to be able to go back and I'm not really certain how a supervisor can even properly evaluate someone just getting started without it.

 

[erg923]

I also wasn't aware there were people who DIDN'T get videotaped. Its done for 3/4 places I've worked, and definitely at the school clinic we're required to work in throughout. That doesn't mean you watch every single session from start to finish, but its important to be able to go back and I'm not really certain how a supervisor can even properly evaluate someone just getting started without it.

Yea, all sessions in the university's psych services clinic were videotaped via a camera in the ceiling for supervsion purposes. Practicum supervsiors at the VA sat in on my interviews and npsych evals for over a month before being satisfied. My last practicum didnt have any shadowing though. Internship has two way mirrors in the family therpay clinic and I have to audiotape my PE sessions. It all good, cause we get to listen to our supervisors tapes and poke fun at their habits too...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yea, all sessions in the university's psych services clinic were videotaped via a camera in the ceiling for supervsion purposes. Practicum supervsiors at the VA sat in on my interviews and npsych evals for over a month before being satisfied. My last practicum didnt have any shadowing though. Internship has two way mirrors in the family therpay clinic and I have to audiotape my PE sessions. It all good, cause we get to listen to our supervisors tapes and poke fun at their habits too...

We had a 2-way mirror in my pre-prac, which I thought was the most intimidating because there were multiple students AND the supervisor watching your interactions with the patient and family members. They had an audio system setup for in-session feedback, which I found incredibly distracting but ultimately useful. My practica sites utilized digital recorders, with video taping being required for case presentations. Internship was a combination of digital recorders, video tape, and/or in vivo observation...depending on the supervisor. The videotaping was incredibly helpful for specific neuropsych stuff, but SO boring to review.

 

[Shatani]

You should have done this in grad school and internship...at least some. This is standard training in university programs. Or at least I thought it was.

It is a learning experience and you have nothing to be nauseous about. VA mandates that those training to be certified in PE and CPT (as well as some other therapies) audiotape their sessions and have supervisor/peer review. Doesn't matter how long you have been practicing. I have alot of audiotaping of my sessions thus far at my VA internship.

nope, no video...ive been audio taped and that was horrifying. i have successfully managed to not be video taped thus far though.

i absolutely see the use and utility of it. doesnt make me feel less pukey, though!


ETA: i've also had supervisors sitting in with sessions and assessments.

 

[Pharmohaulic]

Oh my! I never realized that the profession I was looking to enter was so cut-throat. Maybe I should enter a more peaceful field of employment like the mafia! Since I am very young, ignorant, and new to this forum I cannot really speak about the differences between fields because I am only on my first year of my bachelors. However, I agree with the poster that stated that this is the trend healthcare is taking. No matter who is right or wrong if the insurance companies can pay people less they will! Now, whether or not it is a good or bad thing is a different story. One of my friend's fathers is a physician and was recently telling me about a very similar situation that GPs are dealing with. In New York NPs can work independently without supervision from a MD and bill insurance. He was stating how the DNP degree was just a political way of NPs taking a half-ass route to "playing doctor". (Which according to him they are not qualified to do) Now before any NPs or DNPs attack me, let me be clear, this is not my opinion I am simply repeating what was said to me. My point is, every profession should know their own limitations based on their education and training. For example, can a NP be my primary care? Sure! But only because I have no serious health issues and usually go because of strep or any upper respiratory infection. In this case seeing my NP is fine. However, if I did have a serious illness I would hope that the NP would know that they lack the proper training and education and refer me to a specialist (MD). If everyone would simply do their job based on their education and training and stop comparing themselves to someone else they would be happier. I am going to go out on a limb here and also say that the BSW who started the thread did so because he is second guessing his own choice. He is probably also very pissed off of always being compared to a psychologist. Honestly, if you feel you have entered the field that will make you the happiest then who cares what other people think? No matter what profession you decide to enter someone will always look down and think they are better. If you want to be a DSW I respect you for having the desire to further educate yourself. There is also no need to insult anyone or tell them to go **** off. Honestly if a married couple on the verge of divorce came in and said I am a social worker and spouse is a psychologist and we can’t seem to stop arguing over who is better what would you say as their psychotherapist? All I am trying to say is....can't we all just get along?

Going off of this, I will just summarize what probably has already been said numerous times... that yes, there is significant overlap between the profession but each has their own domain.

Social workers historically focused on social justice, advocacy and case management and psychologist historically studied human behavior, applied that knowledge to different fields (education, health etc), did intensive therapy and assessment. (ROLES OF BOTH FIELDS EQUALLY IMPORTANT)

However as time went on, society evolved and each profession expanded and took on various roles for various (and legitimate) reasons that overlapped with each other. So for example, social workers adopted psychotherapy and mental health treatment as a role for clinical social workers (which was typically the area of psychology) because they realized the importance of helping society not just on a macro but also a micro level... and psychologists adopted different roles such as applied social psychology and community psychology that looked at a person's environment and includes advocacy and social change (historically the area of social work) because they realized that sometimes a person's problems extend beyond them as an individual to include the bigger picture and society around them.

So yes there is overlap, but at its roots, each has their own area of expertise and are equally important.

 

[jheda]

I have read several posts that suggest LCSWs don't have the training and education to provide therapy and diagnostic assessments. I am finishing up my MSW program and will say that I do understand some of what has been said. It is very difficult to reach competency in a two year program. However, course work has been evidence based, focused mostly on CBT. The DSM course was presented from a differential diagnosis perspective, and practicum has consisted of two semesters of working with clients while applying CBT techniques and differential diagnostic assessments. Furthermore, our assessments are signed off by an LCSW and again by a psychiatrist. Rarely is something questioned in the assessment.

I think it is unfortunate that social workers are pigeoned holed into the category of "case manager, supportive therapist, etc." when our education does prepare us for much more. However, I desire more depth in my training which is why I will be beginning a 4-year clinical social work PhD program that will allow me to establish the depth of knowledge and strong clinical skill set that I didn't get in the MSW program. I still wonder how I will be looked at even after I have my PhD? Sometimes I think it has more to do with looking down on another profession than anything.

I applaud your decision to pursue additional training. I have done remarkably well financially and professionally with an MSW plus Post Graduate Training in Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy. There are many programs throughout the nation that are often government funded for Post Graduate Training for Clinical Social Workers and Psychologists.

 

[jheda]

You know why I think he said that? He's employed. It's nice to think about this ideal world where everyone has their piece of the work and we all do it together, but the reality is that psychologists are being pushed out of their jobs by people who have less training. And whether you think it's a good idea or not, you can't really expect us to be happy about the fact that we spend 5+ years in school and have less job prospects than someone with a 2-3 year Masters.

I think psychologists are actively participating in their own demise. MFTs, LPCs and the other MA level licensees are all trained by psychologists in two year programs. There is no theories of MFT or LPC. These are bogus professions that are easy to get. Managed Healthcare Organizations are only interested in the least expensive providers.

 

[jheda]

When did psychotherapy, clinical assessment, etc. become the domain of clinical psychology? Psychiatrists were doing this long before psychologists were. Many of the "fathers" of current psychological assessment and technique were not even psychologists (i.e. Sigmund Freud and Aaron Beck). One might ask, why didn't clinical psychologists become psychiatrists if they want to treat mental disorders, prescribe medications, etc?

As a note, I don't agree with clinical social workers performing psychological testing. I agree that this is the domain of psychology and should remain so.

BSWdavid,
This is a fascinating discussion. I am trained as a Clinical Social Worker. However, I also have Post Graduate Training in Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy from Harvard University School of Medicine. I have never had a job with the title Social Worker. When I taught at UCLA Neuropsychiatric Insitute, my official title was Lecturer in Psychiatry. I taught classes in Group Psychotherapy, Clinical Interviewing and Family Therapy. I also provided clinical supervision to Child Psychiatrists and Child Fellows (was this social work?). I also worked as a Mental Health Consultant for the Los Angeles Unified School District. I was paid the same as psychiatrists ($138hr.) while my Clinical Social Work Colleagues were paid considerably less ($32 hr). I taught Child Psychotherapy at The Wright Institute as well as UCLA School of Social Welfare.

It is very ackward teaching or coaching physicians. In my opinion, demonstrated competency is the key.
I now provide Emotional Intelligence Coaching to physicians and work is not considered social work.