Clinically Oriented PhDs

[MustangPhD]

I know this question has been asked before - but I can't find anything recent (from the past 3-4 years) so bare with me... I'm looking at going for either a PhD or a PsyD (but only top notch programs such as Baylor/Rutgers etc)... But I'm having trouble narrowing down my PhD school list. I know the Insider's Guide gives schools a rating between 1-7, but I've also seen it be somewhat unreliable...
Are there any schools other than UT Southwestern at Dallas that are very clinically oriented?

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[deleted343839]

I know this question has been asked before - but I can't find anything recent (from the past 3-4 years) so bare with me... I'm looking at going for either a PhD or a PsyD (but only top notch programs such as Baylor/Rutgers etc)... But I'm having trouble narrowing down my PhD school list. I know the Insider's Guide gives schools a rating between 1-7, but I've also seen it be somewhat unreliable...
Are there any schools other than UT Southwestern at Dallas that are very clinically oriented?

Can you clarify what you mean by "very clinically oriented"? If you mean being well prepared to start a clinical career after graduation, then that's true of most PhD programs. For example, you mentioned UTSW, but right down the road is University of North Texas, and most of their PhD grads go on to clinical practice also. I don't know how the Insider's Guide classifies that program.

If you are concerned about committing a significant amount of time to research, that's a different issue. (If that's the case don't apply to Baylor or Rutgers, btw).

While you get a good amount of exposure to clinical practice during a doctoral program, the internship and postdoc years are where you really put it all together and get ready to practice independently. Though you may not be happy in an extremely research-focused program, a balanced program with APA accreditation and good internship match rates will set you on the right path for a practice career.

 

[Meteora]

The type of PhD program something to consider. There is a difference between schools adopting a clinical science model versus a scientist-practitioner model (which might be more up your alley). In terms of finding funded PhD programs that are more clinically-focused, I'm not really aware of many (I looked for them in my search as well). Somewhat ironically, I ended up at a clinical science program.

 

[Justanothergrad]

A mistake that students considering graduate school often make is to ask "where can I go that provides training consistent with my idea of what I need". They should instead be asking "Based on what I want to do, what type of training do I need?". Asking for a clinically focused program is more the first and less the second. Most PhDs do clinical work when they graduate. So the question you should explore is 1) what programs produce the best outcomes for being a clinician and 2) what types of those programs am I competitive for.

Besides that, I'm not even sure what 'clinically focused PhD' is operationalized as for you- what is an acceptable amount of research? Some research is good and informs clinical practice in a positive manner. This is why top-notch PsyDs do research as well.

 

[MustangPhD]

A mistake that students considering graduate school often make is to ask "where can I go that provides training consistent with my idea of what I need". They should instead be asking "Based on what I want to do, what type of training do I need?". Asking for a clinically focused program is more the first and less the second. Most PhDs do clinical work when they graduate. So the question you should explore is 1) what programs produce the best outcomes for being a clinician and 2) what types of those programs am I competitive for.

Besides that, I'm not even sure what 'clinically focused PhD' is operationalized as for you- what is an acceptable amount of research? Some research is good and informs clinical practice in a positive manner. This is why top-notch PsyDs do research as well.

Can you clarify what you mean by "very clinically oriented"? If you mean being well prepared to start a clinical career after graduation, then that's true of most PhD programs. For example, you mentioned UTSW, but right down the road is University of North Texas, and most of their PhD grads go on to clinical practice also. I don't know how the Insider's Guide classifies that program.

If you are concerned about committing a significant amount of time to research, that's a different issue. (If that's the case don't apply to Baylor or Rutgers, btw).

While you get a good amount of exposure to clinical practice during a doctoral program, the internship and postdoc years are where you really put it all together and get ready to practice independently. Though you may not be happy in an extremely research-focused program, a balanced program with APA accreditation and good internship match rates will set you on the right path for a practice career.

I do think research is important, and by no means want to stray away from it which is why I am applying to PsyD programs that value research and are top programs.

UTSW for example states on their website that their goal is to "equip students pursuing more clinically oriented careers" whereas say for example University of Oregon states "Students interested primarily in clinical practice would most likely prefer a program less research-oriented than the Oregon Clinical Psychology Training Program"...

So while I do believe research is essential to being a competent and efficient clinician, I am more interested in programs with a strong clinical emphasis as well. If that clears this
I'm more inclined to do a PsyD - but only at a program that is well respected and well funded (Baylor, Rutgers, IUP, Roosevelt). But I think (or at least hoping) that I could possibly get into a fully funded PhD program with my credentials which is why I want to apply to both.

 

[MustangPhD]

Sorry, I'm new to the forums, that was terrible. I didn't know how to reply to both of you at the same time

 

[deleted343839]

Sorry, I'm new to the forums, that was terrible. I didn't know how to reply to both of you at the same time

Yeah, the multi-quote function is not intuitive. No worries.

There's no substitute for visiting the web site of each program that interests you and learning about the program's mission and orientation. Programs that offer a scientist-practitioner orientation are usually a good fit for people who want to pursue clinical careers. There are plenty of programs that welcome trainees with both academic and practice career goals. And, as I and others have pointed out, most PhDs go on to careers in clinical practice regardless of their program's orientation.

It sounds like you might have some incorrect assumptions about the PsyD versus PhD training path. You should know that reputable PsyD programs closely resemble balanced scientist-practitioner PhD programs. This is not to dissuade you from applying to strong PsyD programs, but rather to discourage you from limiting your options in a competitive field. I encourage you to carefully read this thread: Ph.D./Psy.D. comparison

 

[MustangPhD]

Yeah, the multi-quote function is not intuitive. No worries.

There's no substitute for visiting the web site of each program that interests you and learning about the program's mission and orientation. Programs that offer a scientist-practitioner orientation are usually a good fit for people who want to pursue clinical careers. There are plenty of programs that welcome trainees with both academic and practice career goals. And, as I and others have pointed out, most PhDs go on to careers in clinical practice regardless of their program's orientation.

It sounds like you might have some incorrect assumptions about the PsyD versus PhD training path. You should know that reputable PsyD programs closely resemble balanced scientist-practitioner PhD programs. This is not to dissuade you from applying to strong PsyD programs, but rather to discourage you from limiting your options in a competitive field. I encourage you to carefully read this thread: Ph.D./Psy.D. comparison

I've done a lot of website perusing with PhD programs, it's just tough to really know everything from the website. I understand that the best PsyD programs are similar to balanced PhD programs and that the application process is competitive (which is why I will be applying to both), I just want to make sure there's not any very balanced PhD program that I am missing out on. I don't *mind* research and I definitely value it's purpose in the field and I want to have research incorporated into my degree - I would just prefer a school with a definitive clinical emphasis like a PsyD. Plus, I definitely don't see a career out of it and doubt I will go into academia.

To me, the biggest difference in more in matching with professors and the cost. I'm only applying to PsyD programs with either full funding or that are very well funded and will not end up in much debt... And though having a POI is important with a PsyD, I think it is much more important with the PhD programs I'm looking at. I'm looking at about 5 PsyD programs and plan to apply to about 10 PhD programs, just trying to find those 10 that match with me.

 

[deleted343839]

I understand that the best PsyD programs are similar to balanced PhD programs and that the application process is competitive (which is why I will be applying to both), I just want to make sure there's not any very balanced PhD program that I am missing out on.

There are many balanced PhD programs including the one I mentioned up-thread.

I would just prefer a school with a definitive clinical emphasis like a PsyD.

@Justanothergrad made a good point. I won't belabor it.

 

[psypipe]

From my experience, the two models are very different. How would a reputable Psy.D. program resemble a scientist-practitioner program? I have heard Baylor functions like a scientist-practitioner model, but I believe they are the exception. Other reputable Psy.D.'s seem to be a lot more clinically oriented, and most students do minimal amounts of research besides dissertation.
Additionally, the type of research allowed in these programs is different from scientist-practitioner programs: qualitative research and theoretical dissertations in contrast to being obliged to complete exclusively quantitative research. Moreover, the amount of clinical work completed in a shorter amount of time (5 years as opposed to 6 or 7) leaves very little time for research.

 

[deleted343839]

Additionally, the type of research allowed in these programs is different from scientist-practitioner programs: qualitative research and theoretical dissertations in contrast to being obliged to complete exclusively quantitative research.

That's a fair point. Dissertation standards may be less rigorous at many PsyD programs, though that is really a separate issue from the amount of clinical training. Which leads to your next point...

Moreover, the amount of clinical work completed in a shorter amount of time (5 years as opposed to 6 or 7) leaves very little time for research.

The differences are smaller than you'd think. There is a lot of program-level variation. Looking at the actual stats, the mean number of years to complete the program is close to 6 at Rutgers (PsyD), IUP (PsyD), and Roosevelt (PsyD), similar to UCLA (PhD) and U. Michigan (PhD). It's closer to 5 at Baylor's PsyD program and at U. Denver (PsyD), but also at U. of Houston (PhD) and U. of Miami (PhD).

Bottom line, a strong PsyD program is a fine option for someone interested in a clinical career, but it makes no sense to limit oneself to those programs seeing as there is no net benefit of a PsyD (relative to a PhD) in preparing for a clinical career.

 

[Justanothergrad]

With research differences, there are also plenty of top quality R1 PhD programs which all qualitative dissertations. Several of my internship class did qualitative dissertations and they were from good quality PhD programs. That is not the norm, but it does illustrate the diversity available depending on what you are studying, under who, and at what program. Making assumptions about PhD vs PsyD in terms of training differences is probably not smart, once you exclude the for-profit and crummy PsyDs from consideration.

As @MamaPhD said, the differences are small.

 

[MustangPhD]

I agree that the differences are small. Which is why I AM applying to both programs. I feel like that is getting overlooked throughout this post. As long as it's a balanced PhD - instead of a research intensive PhD I am considering the program. My question was if anyone knew of particular names of these schools similar to UTSW (and I've heard Northwestern Feinberg as well). I also think the Insider's Guide doesn't tell me everything I need to know - though it's definitely a good starting point.

I want to apply to programs that fit what I'm looking for in terms of a graduate school regardless if they're labeled a PhD or PsyD. It's more about the type of education and training I would get and was looking for advice on what other schools might be out there.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I agree that the differences are small. Which is why I AM applying to both programs. I feel like that is getting overlooked throughout this post. As long as it's a balanced PhD - instead of a research intensive PhD I am considering the program. My question was if anyone knew of particular names of these schools similar to UTSW (and I've heard Northwestern Feinberg as well). I also think the Insider's Guide doesn't tell me everything I need to know - though it's definitely a good starting point.

I want to apply to programs that fit what I'm looking for in terms of a graduate school regardless if they're labeled a PhD or PsyD. It's more about the type of education and training I would get and was looking for advice on what other schools might be out there.

The reason this point is getting overlooked is because your terminology of 'balanced program' doesn't make a lot of sense so its hard to offer anything substantive in feedback. If you are looking at the Likert-scale from the guide, you have to remember that programs with a 3-5 are saying they are balanced between practice and researcher, thus the scholar-practitioner model. There are plenty of those programs in the book so if people were to list off all the schools who provide that training it would be a fairly substantial list.

 

[deleted343839]

My question was if anyone knew of particular names of these schools similar to UTSW (and I've heard Northwestern Feinberg as well).

Setting aside the issue of training model, what kind of practice settings interest you? UTSW and Feinberg would be a good fit for someone who is interested in practicing in integrated healthcare or an academic medical center.

 

[LM02]

There are many, many PhD programs that will provide fantastic learning environments for people to go into clinical (vs research) paths - even if they also value and emphasize research training (as they should).

I think the bigger question in your shoes might be to identify and avoid those PhD programs that are so research-heavy that they minimize or provide fewer clinical training opportunities for students. When core faculty are not providing any clinical training or supervision, that may be an indicator of a program you might want to avoid!

I went to a program known for being "research heavy," with many grads continuing into academic/research paths. But I also got really top-notch clinical training from the core faculty, as well as externship placements, and several of my former classmates are highly skilled, full time clinicians.

 

[PsyNeuro37]

Just to provide another suggestion, I'd recommend applying to programs that have faculty that match well with your research interests and allow you to work with the clinical populations you're interested in. On interviews you'll be able to get a much better idea of how well you fit with the programs training than from what you will read online.

 

[psych.meout]

Just to provide another suggestion, I'd recommend applying to programs that have faculty that match well with your research interests and allow you to work with the clinical populations you're interested in. On interviews you'll be able to get a much better idea of how well you fit with the programs training than from what you will read online.

This was definitely the case at the interviews I've had.

Most of these clinical PhD programs seemed relatively similar in terms of program focus and orientation based on their websites, but it was far more revealing being on-site and hearing from the DCT and other faculty. Some programs placed significantly more emphasis on clinical training than it appeared on their websites. Even those which significantly emphasize research on their websites and during interviews often had particularly heavy clinical training.

One or two others were somewhat disappointingly lax in their clinical training, which seemed to be more of something for the students to just get through, rather than being real emphases. I understand that these programs emphasized getting their graduates into research or tenure-track careers, but it was still slightly disheartening. One program in particular was so light on clinical training that students from a clinical PhD program over an hour away used the first university's in-house clinic as an external practicum site.

 

[Kadhir]

It probably bears mentioning that, at least the last time I checked, neither UTSW or Feinberg were fully funded, and this is exactly because they are within a medical model (and thus focused on clinical training). I remember that if you were out of state, you did accrue substantial debt from UTSW. That being said, it is an excellent program that turns out great clinicians.

 

[psych.meout]

It probably bears mentioning that, at least the last time I checked, neither UTSW or Feinberg were fully funded, and this is exactly because they are within a medical model (and thus focused on clinical training). I remember that if you were out of state, you did accrue substantial debt from UTSW. That being said, it is an excellent program that turns out great clinicians.

The last time I checked the Feinberg program, the average debt load of graduates was around $60,000 total for graduates.

 

[MustangPhD]

The last time I checked the Feinberg program, the average debt load of graduates was around $60,000 total for graduates.

Feinberg is moving to a fully funded program beginning next year according to their website.
And UTSW is usually out of pocket the first year, but you receive a stipend the following years (plus it's only a four year program which is nice)..

Thank you for the advice about the interviews! That's the part I'm most nervous about...
Since I'm not crazy about research, I don't really have strong ties to one particular "research interest"... But I am trying to find Professors I would enjoy working with/find their work fascinating.
It's easier for me to narrow down by the schools that will let me work with the clinical populations I'm interested in.

Thank you so much for the advice everyone !