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user3

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As I said before, there's going to be a day when either DO schools start applying for LCME recognition or COCA falls and all of these new schools get shut down Flexner style.
I agree with most of your posts, but it is hypocritical the way you prop your school up in many of your posts and exclude it from this type of criticism. KCUMB, as well as other established schools, have also been complicit in this new school growth (ok, branches, but still)...
 
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IslandStyle808

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It was only a matter of time. Let's not forget that NYIT-Arkansas is on the rise as well (they already started some residencies up, so at least they are doing that). These school will most likely be ready only by next year, since they have not received provisional accreditation yet.
 

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Resources in the terms of COCA = a few buildings to renovate that'll fit 150 students AT FIRST but have enough room to expand to a class of 500. Voila, a medical school is born.

How about focusing those resources towards building a biomedical research facility so that those entering DO programs who don't want to enter a primary care field have some sort of way of increasing there own repertoire in scholarly activity without having to jump ship to the nearest MD school?
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I agree with most of your posts, but it is hypocritical the way you prop your school up in many of your posts and exclude it from this type of criticism. KCUMB, as well as other established schools, have also been complicit in this new school growth (ok, branches, but still)...
Oh, don't get me wrong. I actually am pretty against the Joplin branch school. Though at the same time I can stomach it better than say a 4th or frankly an eventual 5th LECOM or VCOM or Touro.
 

AlteredScale

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I actually am pretty against the Joplin branch school. Though at the same time I can stomach it better than say a 4th or frankly an eventual 5th LECOM or VCOM or Touro.
If KCU sticks to their word about having a school in Joplin FOR Joplin (that means not sending the rest of their students to Arkansas if they run out of 3rd year spots in Joplin, having a match list that shows 50%+ grads staying in Joplin for residency) then I will stand confident in the branch. The fact that they have a complete tie to Freeman Health is a positive thing. I would like to see them take the next step of turning that into a univ. teaching hospital (name change).

Ohio University has been one of the only DO programs to really push their missions statement in terms of providing primary care for the state of Ohio while creating branches of their campus and they have done it well (50 student class for the new Cleveland Campus that is within the Cleveland Clinic South Pointe Hospital).

We shall see.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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If KCU sticks to their word about having a school in Joplin FOR Joplin (that means not sending the rest of their students to Arkansas if they run out of 3rd year spots in Joplin, having a match list that shows 50%+ grads staying in Joplin for residency) then I will stand confident in the branch. The fact that they have a complete tie to Freeman Health is a positive thing. I would like to see them take the next step of turning that into a univ. teaching hospital (name change).

Ohio University has been one of the only DO programs to really push their missions statement in terms of providing primary care for the state of Ohio while creating branches of their campus and they have done it well (50 student class for the new Cleveland Campus that is within the Cleveland Clinic South Pointe Hospital).

We shall see.
Idk if that's possible. Joplin is a town of 50,000. They're going to have at max 50 rotation spots, and maybe 25 residency spots.
 
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NurWollen

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If KCU sticks to their word about having a school in Joplin FOR Joplin (that means not sending the rest of their students to Arkansas if they run out of 3rd year spots in Joplin, having a match list that shows 50%+ grads staying in Joplin for residency) then I will stand confident in the branch. The fact that they have a complete tie to Freeman Health is a positive thing. I would like to see them take the next step of turning that into a univ. teaching hospital (name change).

Ohio University has been one of the only DO programs to really push their missions statement in terms of providing primary care for the state of Ohio while creating branches of their campus and they have done it well (50 student class for the new Cleveland Campus that is within the Cleveland Clinic South Pointe Hospital).

We shall see.
I kind of think having the campus within the walls of a hospital is kind of neat. It would make it much easier to get some mild exposure to real medicine during pre-clinicals. Learnomg the small stuff can really help students during clinicals. Learning how to scrub and how to behave in the OR, how to not piss off nurses, etc.
 

IslandStyle808

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Idk if that's possible. Joplin is a town of 50,000. They're going to have at max 50 rotation spots, and maybe 25 residency spots.
Is that true? KCUMB currently have setup AOA GME in family medicine, surgery, internal medicine, and OBGYN (this is a total 47 spots) at Joplin. There are other residency programs at the Freeman Health System (I wonder if KCUMB will or already are utilizing them). I think they would be able to accommodate more.

They show the residences on the AOA site
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Is that true? KCUMB currently have setup AOA GME in family medicine, surgery, internal medicine, and OBGYN (this is a total 47 spots) at Joplin. There are other residency programs at the Freeman Health System (I wonder if KCUMB will or already are utilizing them). I think they would be able to accommodate more.

They show the residences on the AOA site
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm
Well I'll be darned. I didn't know it'd be that high. Huh, maybe they've got a good shot at getting all that want to stay in the area there for residency at least.
 
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Is that true? KCUMB currently have setup AOA GME in family medicine, surgery, internal medicine, and OBGYN (this is a total 47 spots) at Joplin. There are other residency programs at the Freeman Health System (I wonder if KCUMB will or already are utilizing them). I think they would be able to accommodate more.

They show the residences on the AOA site
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm
Freeman Health is already affiliated with ATSU and KCU for clerkships.
http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/college-of-osteopathic-medicine/clerkships/clerkship-sites/freeman/

In addition, both Mercy and Freeman have made significant pledges and gifts including facilities and multi-millions in funds to the development of the Joplin campus.
http://www.kcumb.edu/about/news-events/news/?id=12884901987

Mercy Joplin is a 206 bed hospital and Freeman Health has a few hospitals, the largest being a 346 bed institution. Freeman already sponsors EM, ENT, Psych, and IM programs. Mercy is set to sponsor the ones you listed.

Springfield, a larger town than Joplin and one hour away, currently is the home to only one residency program: Cox Family Medicine. Springfield already serves as a core clerkship site for KCU. It looks like the U of Missouri will be expanding both medical student (8-12 MU students) and GME education to Springfield through partnering with Cox Health and Mercy Springfield.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/special-reports/mohealth/support-builds-for-new-medical-training-campus-in-springfield-mo/article_d4a20d42-f9f2-59a1-8b96-2bb4f53a53b3.html
http://medicine.missouri.edu/morephysicians/
 
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IslandStyle808

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Well I'll be darned. I didn't know it'd be that high. Huh, maybe they've got a good shot at getting all that want to stay in the area there for residency at least.
It is possible the number of GME spot may increase further in the future (like what BCOM is doing). May even be higher before the first class reaches 3rd year.
 
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AlteredScale

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It is possible the number of GME spot may increase further in the future (like what BCOM is doing). May even be higher before the first class reaches 3rd year.
With this in mind and with the fact that any GME expansion will need to run through ACGME accred. this actually may be a decent thing going on.
 
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The only good news is that DO schools will choke themselves to death at this rate, as the COCA requires 98% placement or they cut seats. More competition will lead to the poor schools closing, and make the market more honest.
 

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The only good news is that DO schools will choke themselves to death at this rate, as the COCA requires 98% placement or they cut seats. More competition will lead to the poor schools closing, and make the market more honest.
COCA might change that 98% requirement later on if someone sue them... LCME is better, but I don't think they are much better than COCA. People that are saying residency is the bottleneck are ignoring that residency spots have been increasing at ~3%/year for the past few years...

The main problem with these schools is that they accept 100-150 in their inaugural class and massively expand these class size in a few years... FIU/UCF/FAU still have around or below 100 students even if they have been accepting students for a few years, and these school are affiliated with big public institutions... I think this is where LCME is a heck of a lot better than COCA...
 
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Mad Jack

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COCA might change that 98% requirement later on if someone sue them... LCME is better, but I don't think they are much better than COCA. People that are saying residency is the bottleneck are ignoring that residency spots have been increasing at ~3%/year for the past few years...

The main problem with these schools is that they accept 100-150 in their inaugural class and massively expand these class size in a few years... FIU/UCF/FAU still have around or below 100 students even if they have been accepting students for a few years, and these school are affiliated with big public institutions... I think this is where LCME is a heck of a lot better than COCA...
No one will sue them over the 98% placement rule, and even if they did, they wouldn't win. We'll see how it all plays out.
 

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COCA might change that 98% requirement later on if someone sue them... LCME is better, but I don't think they are much better than COCA. People that are saying residency is the bottleneck are ignoring that residency spots have been increasing at ~3%/year for the past few years...

The main problem with these schools is that they accept 100-150 in their inaugural class and massively expand these class size in a few years... FIU/UCF/FAU still have around or below 100 students even if they have been accepting students for a few years, and these school are affiliated with big public institutions... I think this is where LCME is a heck of a lot better than COCA...
The difference is that the LCME is almost always on the side of the students as opposed to COCA which is almost always on the side of faculty and the administration. LCME will flip your school upside down for not having a large enough community area. COCA won't even bat an eye when 3 programs use the same small building as their primary classroom, lack adequate study room, don't have enough parking spots for their students, and a buttload of other issues.

In either case, an eventual take over is something I welcome.
 

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The difference is that the LCME is almost always on the side of the students as opposed to COCA which is almost always on the side of faculty and the administration. LCME will flip your school upside down for not having a large enough community area. COCA won't even bat an eye when 3 programs use the same small building as their primary classroom, lack adequate study room, don't have enough parking spots for their students, and a buttload of other issues.

In either case, an eventual take over is something I welcome.
Some of the LCME rules can also be ridiculous like during MS1 I received multiple emails from my school secretary about having a locker, and when I e-mailed her back saying that I don't want one, she had to asked me to come to the school to sign a paper saying that I declined having a locker. LCME requires that school offer a locker to every student--really! There are more important stuff (like rising tuition) I think these people should try to fix instead of worrying about these superfluous stuff....
 
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Mad Jack

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Some of the LCME rules can also be ridiculous like during MS1 I received multiple emails from my school secretary about having a locker, and when I e-mailed her back saying that I don't want one, she had to asked me to come to the school to sign a paper saying that I declined having a locker. LCME requires that school offer a locker to every student--really! There are more important stuff I think these people should try to fix instead of worrying about these superfluous stuff....
Pretty sure the COCA requires lockers too- I get issued one every year that I never use.
 

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Pretty sure the COCA requires lockers too- I get issued one every year that I never use.
Why don't these people worry about the education that students are getting and rising tuition instead of these nonsense?
 
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user3

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The difference is that the LCME is almost always on the side of the students as opposed to COCA which is almost always on the side of faculty and the administration. LCME will flip your school upside down for not having a large enough community area. COCA won't even bat an eye when 3 programs use the same small building as their primary classroom, lack adequate study room, don't have enough parking spots for their students, and a buttload of other issues.

In either case, an eventual take over is something I welcome.
this describes my school. in fact, students actually brought this issue up to administration in the past. Admin advised them to utilize the lecture halls as they contained sufficient space for all students to study in...
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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this describes my school. in fact, students actually brought this issue up to administration in the past. Admin advised them to utilize the lecture halls as they contained sufficient space for all students to study in...

Yah, not like they're going to build a new building for you scrubs unless they have to.
 
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I think he means that the fact that GME isn't expanding at the same rate as med school seats is keeping the market form getting over saturated with doctors.
It not only means that. Schools have a certain minimum number of people that must match to have accreditation. At some point they'll have to stop before they hurt the entire profession.
 

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The only good news is that DO schools will choke themselves to death at this rate, as the COCA requires 98% placement or they cut seats. More competition will lead to the poor schools closing, and make the market more honest.
This is false. The requirement is being scaled back to 95% instead of 98%.

NEW 8.3.1 COMs must maintain a minimum 95% placement rate in each year for those graduates eligible and seeking a GME position.
Source:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/proposed-revisions-to-coca-standards-5-2015.pdf

And who is to say this requirement cannot be cut back more in the future?
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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COCA does not have our best interests in mind. Plain and Simple.
So what are you as an osteopathic graduate going to do about it? I mean, there is obviously dissent, are there really no movements for internal changes?
 

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IslandStyle808

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This is false. The requirement is being scaled back to 95% instead of 98%.

NEW 8.3.1 COMs must maintain a minimum 95% placement rate in each year for those graduates eligible and seeking a GME position.
Source:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/proposed-revisions-to-coca-standards-5-2015.pdf

And who is to say this requirement cannot be cut back more in the future?
I knew it was 95%, but I didn't realize that was a scale back. Now I am scared.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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In the time you've spent on SDN, you could have written an email.
I doubt a random premed who's moderately known on SDN holds weight. Hell, I don't think me as an Osteopathic Medical Student holds weight either. If it did then SOMA's petition for the removal of cranial would have worked.
 

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I doubt a random premed who's moderately known on SDN holds weight. Hell, I don't think me as an Osteopathic Medical Student holds weight either. If it did then SOMA's petition for the removal of cranial would have worked.
For what research I've done, I believe both the dean and president of our school hold administrative positions in COCA and AOA. It would never hurt to email them and ask questions or voice your concerns. That's why they're there.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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For what research I've done, I believe both the dean and president of our school hold administrative positions in COCA and AOA. It would never hurt to email them and ask questions or voice your concerns. That's why they're there.

Like what? Hey Dean Dubin, whats your opinion on cranial?
 

AlteredScale

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Like what? Hey Dean Dubin, whats your opinion on cranial?
You could ask them what the reason is behind allowing a school like NYIT to build a branch in a completeley different state. Why is there this half joint operation between a university and a DO program such as BCOM or Auburn/VCOM.
 
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Shinobiz11

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You could ask them what the reason is behind allowing a school like NYIT to build a branch in a completeley different state. Why is there this half joint operation between a university and a DO program such as BCOM or Auburn/VCOM.
I was thinking about this the other day. It's much easier to start up a DO school/branch, especially if it's from an already existing school. A huge school like Auburn or even NMSU could have easily gone the MD route, it would have just taken longer to get everything rolling. COCA gives these BS standards to stay in the money game, while the joint operations make premeds salivate with the "connections".
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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You could ask them what the reason is behind allowing a school like NYIT to build a branch in a completeley different state. Why is there this half joint operation between a university and a DO program such as BCOM or Auburn/VCOM.

You know, for what it is worth we could pull off some of this, maybe get Dubin et. al to talk about it to SOMA or SMOA( w.e the Missouri group is).
 
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You could ask them what the reason is behind allowing a school like NYIT to build a branch in a completeley different state. Why is there this half joint operation between a university and a DO program such as BCOM or Auburn/VCOM.
Talk about not picking your battles! I hope you realize that the risk of sending such an antagonistic email to your dean far outweighs the reward.
 
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AlteredScale

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Talk about not picking your battles! I hope you realize that the risk of sending such an antagonistic email to your dean far outweighs the reward.
Hahaha yes, I would never ever actually send an email like that to admin, especially while a student there!
 

GUH

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This is false. The requirement is being scaled back to 95% instead of 98%.

NEW 8.3.1 COMs must maintain a minimum 95% placement rate in each year for those graduates eligible and seeking a GME position.
Source:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/proposed-revisions-to-coca-standards-5-2015.pdf

And who is to say this requirement cannot be cut back more in the future?
Do you have any previous versions which indicate a 98% minimum placement rate? Because the document you posted indicates that there was no minimum previously.
 
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