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Colorado

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by rhillstr, Apr 20, 1999.

  1. rhillstr

    rhillstr Senior Member

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    What the hell...
    I live in Eugene, OR. That's right about 5 miles from Thurston High where the last national tragedy occured. How long can this continue???? Is this the new trend? Am I going to treat gsw's from my local high school when I finish my medical education?
    Aarrrrggh!
     
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  3. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member

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    I'm at a loss as to how we can curb this problem. The first step in my opinion is to completely eliminate guns in the U.S. Some might cite a Constitutional right to bear arms. That's bull #@!* I have a Constitutional right to not be shot by some psycho. Others might say that we need guns to protect ourselves. Yeah, like you're fast enough and good enough to end a carnage like today. Chances are you'll hit an innocent person, get killed yourself, or push the maniac into killing more people. Is there any other lame excuse to carry a gun out there?

    Second, severely punish people for doing anything illegal involving a gun, including "carrying a concealed weapon." Something like 5 years and a big fine for a small offense, 15 years for armed robbery, 30 years for assault, etc... Or, we can do what we currently do and scold people.

    The big question is how do you deal with people who hate so much. I have no clue, but counseling won't do squat. The problem stems from something in the individual's family. Whether ir's an abusive parent or a parent who has no idea how to raise a child, there's generally something going on in the person's family to make him resort to such violence. Again, I have no answer as to how to handle the parent problem. Easy if it's just an abusive parent but what to do with a dumb parent I have no idea.

    You will have to forgive me for being so harsh and rude and whatever other negative adjective you can come up with. I am just sick and tired of hearing about crap like this happening, because it seems to be getting worse and we seem to be helpless to stop it. Right now, my anger is directed at the NRA for obvious reasons and because I just faced the danger earlier this month of being surrounded by people carrying concealed weapons. Fortunately, Proposition B did not pass and we are a less barbaric state for another few years.
     
  4. scoren

    scoren Member

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    How would you completely eliminate guns in the US? If they are made illegal, do you think these psychos will just give them up?

     
  5. DO DUDE

    DO DUDE Senior Member

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    Several states already let people carry concealed weapons including FL, TX, etc... and have for several years. I believe that the crime rates have consistently gone down in those states. They have to go through extensive background checks. I doubt those kids had a license, or were eligible to get one. Maybe we should look toward the constant downward spiral of morals in this country. Ever hear of the movie "The Basketball Diaries?" How did those kids get the guns? How do kids get marijuana, crack, heroin, or anything else?
    Just look at our wonderful example of a President. This is the "whatever" generation.
     
  6. Hskermdic

    Hskermdic Senior Member

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    As shootings such as this last one become more frequent the likelihood that we as healthcare providers will be involved will also increase. I would like to see schools spend more time on teaching health professionals from first responders all the way to doctors how to deal with these tragedies on a personal level. Maybe medschools cover this issue I don't yet know but I do know that the effects felt by medical personel and their families can be devistating after working in such situations.

    I feel for the students and their families but also for the firefighters, paramedics etc that are there in the middle of this mess.

    Carrie
     
  7. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member

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    I must be hoping for too idealistic of a society. I just don't think we should have guns because they simply are too dangerous and no matter what precautions you take, accidents are going to happen. Making guns illegal via legislation won't take guns out of the hands of psychos, at least not immediately. But, if we make the penalties for having one really harsh, then people are far more likely to get rid of them. Would you keep a gun if you knew that you would go to prison for 10 years if you were caught with one? That would also prevent another Oregon tragedy from taking place. True, the parents did a poor job of safeguarding their weapons but if they were never there, would they and three students be dead? Probably not.

    Concealed weapons laws are akin to what went on during the Cold War. I have nukes too so you probably don't want to fire yours at me. Why not just get rid of the nukes on both sides? That way, we eliminate the possibility of an accidental firing. Same thing applies to guns. Why not just take guns away from criminal and victim instead of putting guns in the hands of victims as a deterrent? Again, maybe I'm thinking too idealistically.
     
  8. Mike Tracy

    Mike Tracy Junior Member

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    As a resident of Littleton, Colorado and a future colleage, how about stepping down from your soap boxes for a moment and observing some respect for the dead students and faculty that have still not been identified 13 hours after this massacre occurred.

    I find it a little selfish that you would even have the nerve to bitch about treating kids with GSWs. I am glad that the docs who treated those today didn't have your moral crisis. As a result, they have saved all 20 of the people who came in seeking their advice.

    Mike
    WUCOMP '03

     
  9. cliff

    cliff Senior Member

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    I think that both parents of both kids in jail tomorrow. No questions.

    Wow.


    [This message has been edited by cliff (edited April 21, 1999).]
     
  10. rhillstr

    rhillstr Senior Member

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    I have to disagree justwannabadoc. Taking guns or nukes away won't work until EVERYONE agrees to put them down. The civilized people would see the danger and so, however somebody with a psychological crisis involving recognition and acknowledgement is going to big it up and say "respect me now!". With a nuke it's a third world country. However the point was well brought up about the docs who had to treat them. My point exactly. One of the hard things to stomach is to see several innocent young people torn up without reason and then try to make sense of it all. My heart goes out to all the young people who died and their families. Nobody even mentioned the young people who were not harmed and are now at home trying to make sense of the world and understand what happened. I was right down the street from a similar event. That is the reason I chose to pose this issue to you guys/gals.
     
  11. prefontaine

    prefontaine Senior Member

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    The PACs and SIGs are too powerful, so let them have all the guns they want, make bullets illegal.
     
  12. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    First and foremost, my prayers and heartfelt concerns go out to all the people involved in this senseless incident. The kids who survived this will have emotional and physical scars to bear for many years to come. And, there can be little or nor closure as the perpetrators have ended their own lives. I hate to think that anyone's life, young or old, could be wasted so indescriminately.

    I wish I had the answers or even a single solution to why people opt for violence to express their anger and frustration. However, I am quite confident merely treating a symptom will simply not cure the disease. I make this statement in reference to those wishing guns were illegal. As cliche as it sounds, guns are not the problem...it is the people.

    Until we figure out how to identify and HELP these people prior to their reaching the breaking point, we are simply 'pissing in a big fan.' It is easiest and quickest to point out the guns...if you really want to prevent the next mass shooting, you have to help the perpetrator before they snap. How do you do this? I don't know, I wish I did.

    All the legislation in the world is only going to affect those who are already law-abiding gun owners. Do you really think that if someone has already decided to take the lives of several innocent people and then shoot themselves that they are going to give a damn about an extra 10 or even 20 years in prison...Think this thing through. We are all going to be Doctors, pre-emminent [sp?] problem solvers. Can you solve any problem by dwelling on a symptom? No

    I think DO DUDE has an excellent point..."the downward spiraling of morality." How do we amend this? Good question...I wish someone knew. I do know that some knee-jerk reaction, i.e. "make all the guns disappear," will not suffice.

    [​IMG]

    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    KCOM, Class of '03


    [This message has been edited by OldManDave (edited April 21, 1999).]
     
  13. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member

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    First, my condolences go out to all the victims of the Colorado tragedy. This includes not only the deceased children but those who were injured, their classmates, the parents, the emergency personnel involved, and the entire community. It's a shame when children are forced to grow up because of a tragedy like this.

    I never said that banning firearms was the solution. But I do think it is a step. First, it would reduce the chances of another Oregon tragedy. The gunman for whatever reason was pissed off that day, got his father's gun from wherever, killed them, and proceeded to kill 3 more of his classmates. Obviously the father was at fault because he didn't properly secure his firearms but if he was not allowed to have guns in the first place, 5 people would probably still be alive today. I seriously doubt that he would go out on the streets and purchase a gun. This is a case where guns were in the hands of civilized people yet something still went wrong. Don't get me wrong. The parents' irresponsibility was the main factor but you can't deny that gun accessibility was important as well.

    In terms of taking guns away from psychos, that won't happen anytime soon. But based on my idea, it would significantly reduce their ability to get one in the future. It goes back to enforcing harsh sentences on gun-related offenses (after firearms have been banned). If you make the sentence for firearm distribution something like 20 years mandatory, I seriously doubt many people will continue in the trade. Too severe of a punishment? Yes! But that's what we need. Will people still sell firearms? Yes. But the number of people that do would significantly drop. Remember, this is only one step. Will it happen? Probably not, but it doesn't hurt to dream a litte.

    I think we can all agree though that the problem lies in parenting and in the individuals. The difficulty is how do you solve family problems, hatred, anger, etc... I don't know and as many of you admit, neither do you, which is why I suggest the gun thing. It is easier to put in place and enforce. Find a gun on someone, throw him in jail. Find a bad parent, ...? Find a kid full of hate, ...?
     
  14. summerb

    summerb Member

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    Why is it that some of you feel the need to blame something or someone other than the murderers for this? The obvious culprits, the gunman, are dead, so let's get rid of guns? Let's throw the parents in jail? I don't think that's going to help anyone. Of course it wouldn't have happened if guns didn't exist in the U.S. And yes, parents have tremendous influence over their kids. But can you honestly say that when you were in high school, if you decided to go driving at 80 mph and got a ticket that your parents should pay the fine??? We don't know what kind of parents were involved in these families. We don't know if they did or if they didn't lock up their guns. If the kids made pipe bombs, then I'm sure they could break a lock. The facts we do have are that some monsters entered a school and opened fire on innocent people. People who did not deserve what came to them, whether they were killed, injured, or merely made to observe the violence. Of course we want to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, but pinning all the blame on anything or anyone besides the murderers will not solve the problem.

    I'm not saying the parents shouldn't be thrown in jail if they were indeed acting irresponsibly with their guns. And I'm not saying that making guns illegal would not perhaps be somewhat effective (even though I am personally against making guns illegal). But drunk drivers kill people every day and I don't see any real argument about making alcohol illegal again. Parents abuse their children every day, but not all of them turn into hatefilled murderers. The kids are the responsible party here.

    No doubt we will even have some people start blaming the school for not noticing that the kids were disturbed and not doing something about it.

    My point is that it is not constructive to pass the blame. It happens all too often in our society nowadays, and it never gets anyone anywhere. It just creates fear and anger that somehow you will someday be responsible for something that you had no influnece over. Changing the world is not as easy as making examples of bad parents or getting rid of guns.

    Justwannabadoc, I know you weren't saying that eliminating guns is the solution, but I have a hard time believing that people inclined to murder others will necessarily let a law stop them. They break the law when they kill. What do they care if they merely buy something illegally. The only benefit I see of getting rid of guns is that there would be less household accidents. Responsible people would not have guns. But what about the irresponsible? There are plenty of those types.

    And lastly, yes, it is a shame that there is an increase in senseless violence, but it is statistically prediectable when the population is also increasing at an astronomical rate. The more poeple you have, the more murderers you have. Sad, but true. If we want to really do something about it, we have to do the impossible task of changing human nature. Of course, there's always the option of revamping our prison and juvenile system to actually help people rehabilitate in a more positive fashion. But that supposedly isn't nearly as cost effective as perpetuating the negative attitudes of criminals.

    [This message has been edited by summerb (edited April 21, 1999).]
     
  15. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member

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    I kind of disagree (respectfully) with your assertion that we should not blame anyone or anything except the two kids. I don't think placing blame is productive but we do need to find out what went wrong. The difference is a fine line but if you've ever taken a communications or leadership class, you'll know what I'm talking about.

    Except in a very few isolated instances, people are not born evil. When two kids go on a killing rampage, who are we to "blame" but the parents. Don't get me wrong. I feel bad for them IF they were responsible parents who tried to raise their kids properly. But the "blame" still lies with them. They are the ones who raised that child. They are the ones who were supposed to teach him right and wrong. They are the ones who were supposed to talk to him, ask him what went on in school today, find out who his friends are, etc... Few children enjoy disclosing everything. I sure didn't but as I get older, I realize that it is absolutely necessary if you want to protect your children and help them develop properly. Too many parents today believe that good parenting involves just feeding and clothing their kids, asking them how they are, supporting them, etc... This is obviously oversimplified but my point is that good parenting involves a heck of a lot more work than that. It involves discipline from the moment that child is born. It involves hours and hours of talking, teaching, and explaining. Unfortunately, I just don't see enough parents putting in that extra effort. This doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad parents but just that they could be doing more.

    In terms of the two kids, I wonder if the parents knew who their friends were. If they did belong to the so-called black trench coat mafia or whatever the group is called, did the parents know? I am making a big assumption here but if they did, it should have been pretty obvious to the parents. What did they do about it? Did they just forbid him from hanging out with this group? Or, did they sit down and try to understand why their child preferred this group? Who knows. Maybe they did spend a lot of time talking to their child and maybe they did everything in their power to raise their child properly, but it clearly wasn't enough. Yes, I am passing judgement on the parents but when a child becomes a mass murderer, I "blame" the parents because he sure wasn't born that way.

    [This message has been edited by justwannabadoc (edited April 21, 1999).]
     
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  17. Matthews

    Matthews Member

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    In my opinion, the most effective way to begin dealing with the fundamental problem leading to these shootings would be to make uniforms a requirement for all public school students. This should apply to all students K-12. However you try to deal with these problems, guns will always be available to a kid who wants one. You can't disarm the nation and you aren't going to change the way parents think. The only way to change the children is to get them to stop giving eachother such a hard time over things like clothes and popularity. Take away the ability to express individuality in the school setting, and you begin to deal with this problem effectively.
    Write your congressperson now if you agree.
     
  18. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member

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    I agree with you on school uniforms and would even extend it through high school. I'm from NYC and went to high school in the late 80's/early 90's. It was during that time when students were mugged and some even killed for stupid Starter jackets (the ones with pro baseball or football teams). After that, kids were being attacked for Air Jordans. Who knows what's next. Instituting school uniforms would eliminate this problem. Plus, studies have shown that school performance increases because students are no longer focused on their image since you can only look so good in a uniform.

    Unfortunately, you are right that guns are very accessible, and cheap too. You can probably get a handgun now for $50, which most kids today can afford. That is why I still think we should get rid of all firearms. With the right consequences in place and some patience, I think we can at the very least significantly reduce the number of guns out there on the streets because nothing we're doing right now is very effective.
     
  19. Gregory Gulick

    Gregory Gulick Senior Member

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    I, too, sympathize with the students, faculty, and their families. This is a sad time for all Americans.

    In regards to finding out what went wrong, I think a lot of people will be pointing a finger at different groups, whether it is parents, the NRA, the school administration, or the suspects themselves. I say, you have 10 fingers, why limit yourself to one finger? Why not point each one at something different?

    Seriously, I think there is probably a vast number of factors that played into these kids going over the edge from stable youths to a state of severe mental illness. No one factor was enough to drive them over the edge, but when experienced in combination (i.e., social isolation + negative peer pressure + a lax faculty + poor parents + easy access to firearms ?) it lead to a catastrophic outcome. Individually, many of these factors are experienced daily by people who are relatively well-adjusted human beings. But for the two suspects, the combination of factors surpassed their breaking point. And few people, except perhaps the suspects themselves, saw this coming.

    So the solution, as most of you have pointed out, is not a simple one. It requires us to look at the big picture and address the overlying societal condition. Unfortunately, this is expensive, time consuming, and I suspect that most people lack the desire to make the necessary interventions to produce any positive changes. So are we lost? I don't think so. In the meantime, we can work on finding ways to identify children with low breaking points and then strive for early interventions that might improve their condition.

    In other words, until we can cure the disease, let's do our best to prevent it.

    [​IMG]

    [This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited April 21, 1999).]
     
  20. VM

    VM Senior Member

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    Kids today are becoming very desensitized to violence due to movies, TV, video games, etc. I do not believe in censorship, but parents need to quit using these things as "baby-sitters" and start watching what their children watch and do. Many kids today seem to grow up a lot faster than we did and see many things at too early of an age. Also, the media makes these kids infamous. This is exactly what most of these troubled kids want also.
     
  21. sean

    sean Senior Member

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    GUN CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Semi-automatic weapons have no place in this society. The kids are a result of our system not the cause of it. The real culprits are the gun manufacturers and retailers. The American Constitution is a wonderful document in many respects, but the right to bear arms is just plain STUPID.
     
  22. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    Before everyone leaps onto the 'semi-automatic' bandwagon...I want to point out that these kids used shotguns...NOT semi-automatic rifles or 'assault weapons.' And, they MADE pipe bombs...do we now wish to ban all pipes? Come on, gimme a break!



    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    KCOM, Class of '03
     
  23. sean

    sean Senior Member

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    Wrong. These kids did have a SEMIAUTOMATIC rifle. that is how they were able to do the damage the did, not to mention two sawn off shotguns and a hand gun. I am not sure if they had other weapons. The kids who died were SHOT, not blown up by crude pipe bombs. No pipe bombs should not be legal, and you know what they are not. Semiautomatic weapons, shotguns, and hand guns are legal. So I say yes, everybody do jump on the semiautomatic bandwagon and maybe something will change. If we let these instruments be a part of oiur society then we cannot be surprised when somebody actually uses them.
     
  24. summerb

    summerb Member

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    Sean,

    He said PIPES can't be illegal. Not pipe bombs (just to clarify). Anyway, I agree, there is no place for semi-automatic weapons. If people shoot for sport, these guns take all skill out of it anyway, so why should they need them. And anyone else who wants one probably isn't up to much good.

    Justwannabadoc,

    I am in COMPLETE agreement with you about parenting. And I *do* think that the parents in this situation probably weren't the best, if they were effective at all. I merely have a problem with putting ALL the blame on any single thing. I guess I came across as saying it is ALL the kids' fault, and I don't really think that. But it's also not ALL the parents' fault. We do have control over what we become. These kids unfortunatley were pushed beyond their breaking point (as Gregory said). I agree that we should point many different fingers, but I also don't think that any ONE of those factors can hold sole responsibility. That is what I was trying to get across. Sorry if it wasn't very clear.

     
  25. DO DUDE

    DO DUDE Senior Member

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    The problem with "gun control" laws is that the people who write them have no clue how the "guns" work in the first place, hence all the "loopholes." A semiautomatic handgun fires one round (bullet)for every single trigger pull. That means to fire 10 rounds you pull the trigger 10 separate times. A double action revolver that is NOT semi-automatic will do the SAME THING per trigger pull. The common misconception is driven by the use of the term "automatic." Fully "automatic" weapons DO fire more than one round per trigger pull and are ILLEGAL ALREADY. "Semi-automatic" doesn't mean you pull the trigger once and for as long as you hold it everything gets "sprayed." It takes a CONSCIOUS EFFORT to repeatedly pull the trigger with a semi-automatic weapon, pistol, OR rifle. The difference lies in the fact that the shooter doesn't have to physically recock the weapon after every discharge. An experienced person firing a single-action revolver, which is NOT "semi-automatic" OR "automatic", can fire more rounds in the same period of time than anyone with a "semi-automatic" handgun of the same caliber.

    The issue here is that those kids were CRIMINALS with CRIMINAL RECORDS. CRIMINALS BREAK THE LAW by definition. Hence the "lame excuse" that if "guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." More people are killed every year by drunk drivers than the PEOPLE who fire guns. Do we ban cars? Do we ban alcohol? Do kids get alcohol that are under 21?? ..and is that ILLEGAL?? Do some of them drive drunk and KILL other people?? Do some of them buy ILLEGAL drugs? And aren't those drugs apparently "easy to get?" I wonder if the refugees in Kosovo that are being murdered and raped by the THOUSANDS would like a few guns...but then again that would NEVER happen here, would it?

    [​IMG]
     
  26. Hskermdic

    Hskermdic Senior Member

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    Mikie Tracey,

    I hope your comment on how we shouldn't be complaining about treating kids with GSWs wasn't directed toward me. I did not mean to put off the tragedy that has occured to those children and their families. I only meant as a person who has provided medical care to far too many kids with GSWs, of which not nearly enought lived, that I understand the pain and the nightmared that follow situations like this for associated medical personel.

    Carrie
     
  27. sean

    sean Senior Member

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    Armageddon, the secret fear of Americans. My nextdoor neighbors reaction to this was, "I looke in the yellow pages as soon as I read this and I am going out to buy a gun. This could happen anywhere you know." What is wrong with people. How is buying more guns the answer? Contrary to the last posting I am very well aware of the difference between automatic, semiautomatis and regular weapons. The lack of recoil makes a huge difference in the operation of a gun. That is how a kid can shoot off multiple rounds quickly. Legislation for very strict gun control is the only answer
     
  28. Bryan123

    Bryan123 Junior Member

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    My two cents,
    I used to be anti-gun, until someone brought up a very good point, "If a person gets threated, for instance a battered woman, and she is a law abiding citizen, she or that person should have the right to buy a gun and protect themselves." I agree, cops can't guard someone all day, and everybody should have the right to defend themselves.
    What do you guys think?

    Also, I have a semiauto -22 rifle, and anybody that tells you they can fire there revolver as fast as a semiauto isn't being truthful.:+(
    Thanks,
    Bryan
     

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